Ah return of super sanctimonious Paul who can do no wrong. I hate these Mary Sue chapters.
With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Twelve)
- Thread starter Mr Zoat
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Ah return of super sanctimonious Paul who can do no wrong. I hate these Mary Sue chapters.
- Location
- australia
*raises an eyeridge* as opposed to the painfully self-righteous JL who see nothing wrong with blackmail,kidnaping,slavery, reckless endangerment (potentially right up to depraved heart murder eventually),and torture in cannon?
Of whom multiple members (ok, It may have just Been Hal Jordan) have shown genuine rage that someone DARED call them on supporting the above? Who left a close friend trapped in near total sensory deprivation for a minimum of two years? >.>
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Part of me kind of wonders whether Paul would respect a leaguer who was like "I didn't think there was a plausible way of getting rid of Nabu without harming Zatara. Better to have him in the league where he can be monitored and do some good until a way to actually do something about it safely surfaced. It's not like putting him on edge by denying him membership in the interim was going to help."
I can't decide if he would respect the cold pragmatism along with the sentiment, or whether he would be irritated that they let usefulness get in the way of 'justice.'
I could also very much see this being the stance of Captain Atom.
I can't decide if he would respect the cold pragmatism along with the sentiment, or whether he would be irritated that they let usefulness get in the way of 'justice.'
I could also very much see this being the stance of Captain Atom.
It isn't that he can do no wrong. It is just that he is the narrator and he is, due to the various mindbending changes he has undergone, no longer capable of doubting his own beliefs or decisions. He cannot acknowledge that other people's morality and ethics are valid if they clash with his own.
I do agree that he gets rather insufferable when lecturing people on such matters. Much like those intellectuals that fervently believe they would know if they were wrong.
An obvious retort would be: "And what, did you want for such way to fall on you from the blue sky? Did you try to find it?".
Kkutlord
Prince of Breath
- Location
- Indianapolis, Indiana
Thinking about it, I actually think most League members thought similarly to Allen. Many of them may be powerful, but none of them are good fits for defeating a Lord of Chaos. Even with Spell Eaters, Klarion merely had to overload their defenses. So knowing that Nabu is supposed to be a famous hero who is the natural counter to a Lord of Chaos, it was reasonable to assume he'd leave once Klarion was handled.
Even when Paul handled Klarion, that only worked because he had Zatanna and John helping him (with it possible John could of failed to usurp Klarion's power). There's also the circumstances to consider: This happened when they were handling the Roakane Island incident, where many people died because of Klarion. With no way to subtly track Klarion (both Pauls straight up baited him), they had no way to tell if he was already planning something new.
Ultimately, I think the Justice League would of handled Nabu differently if he pulled his "I'm more important than you" shtick before Klarion became known as a genocider. Sure the League could of doubled down on Spell Eater research (especially since they would assume Klarion would try to counter it), recruited more mages, or tried a more guile hero approach- But those were all things that would of required time & preparation, not to mention at least some Leaguers would want to rigorously test their plan.
In the end, their choice was "Don't let a friend play host to Nabu presumably temporarily" or "Have more certainty of stopping Klarion before Roakane 2.0". Being the Justice League they all wanted to defeat Klarion, Giovanni included. If any of them were given the choice instead, they likely would of donned the Helmet themselves. Ultimately it was their poor understanding of magic, Lords of Orders, and/or Nabu's decayed mindset combined with their fear of Klarion repeating himself that they all deemed it necessary.
Even when Paul handled Klarion, that only worked because he had Zatanna and John helping him (with it possible John could of failed to usurp Klarion's power). There's also the circumstances to consider: This happened when they were handling the Roakane Island incident, where many people died because of Klarion. With no way to subtly track Klarion (both Pauls straight up baited him), they had no way to tell if he was already planning something new.
Ultimately, I think the Justice League would of handled Nabu differently if he pulled his "I'm more important than you" shtick before Klarion became known as a genocider. Sure the League could of doubled down on Spell Eater research (especially since they would assume Klarion would try to counter it), recruited more mages, or tried a more guile hero approach- But those were all things that would of required time & preparation, not to mention at least some Leaguers would want to rigorously test their plan.
In the end, their choice was "Don't let a friend play host to Nabu presumably temporarily" or "Have more certainty of stopping Klarion before Roakane 2.0". Being the Justice League they all wanted to defeat Klarion, Giovanni included. If any of them were given the choice instead, they likely would of donned the Helmet themselves. Ultimately it was their poor understanding of magic, Lords of Orders, and/or Nabu's decayed mindset combined with their fear of Klarion repeating himself that they all deemed it necessary.
- Location
- Under a Rock
You know what would be cool? If someone in the league blinked a realized: wow, Paul is right! And then they spent five minutes thinking about what that meant. They then realize that not only is the league not infallible, but actually has some really serious blind spots. Which they then try to fix by aquiring a team a ethicists. They would use mind reading plus Paul's empath vision to vet candidates (who agreed to this, obviously), and Batman to do the background checks.
If there isn't the budget for it, find volunteers, because there is no way people like the JL couldn't find volunteers.
The best part of this is how it respects both the fact that this was a really bad mistake on their part, and that the league really is composed of good people. And good people own their mistakes, and try to fix them.
Then someone else would think about the above for five minutes, and use the same process to get a team of lawyers, a PR staff, a professional munchkin whose job it is to find high impact ways to use the JL resources, and a secretary who isn't Wonder Woman.
Edit: And the whiniest teenager they can find, whose job it is to remind people every five minutes to read their goddamn memos.
If there isn't the budget for it, find volunteers, because there is no way people like the JL couldn't find volunteers.
The best part of this is how it respects both the fact that this was a really bad mistake on their part, and that the league really is composed of good people. And good people own their mistakes, and try to fix them.
Then someone else would think about the above for five minutes, and use the same process to get a team of lawyers, a PR staff, a professional munchkin whose job it is to find high impact ways to use the JL resources, and a secretary who isn't Wonder Woman.
Edit: And the whiniest teenager they can find, whose job it is to remind people every five minutes to read their goddamn memos.
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- Location
- USA
Also a staff dedicated to paperwork, a group to do data analysis, one group to monitor the world in place of the current one member in rotation. Perhaps even a group of mundane soldiers using the best tech available, drawn from the various members of the UN as a world defense force that specializes in defending the world from interplanetary/supervillain threats instead of interfering with local issues.
Paul's pointed all this out already.
I can't help but feel that updates like this one reflect poorly on Paul.
- Location
- Tied to my chair
So basically a legit version of the Protectorate from Worm? That sounds really cool actually. I can't think of any series that has played that sort of thing straight. Groups like that are almost always evil/corrupt/incompetent.
- Location
- USA
Partly because superheroes tend to work for those groups instead of the other way around. If the UN appointed that group it would probably follow that trope of evil oversight committee.
On the other hand, if the Justice league hired the extra staff themselves it's less likely.
I feel like although Paul could have put it better he does make a good point, the Justice League are seen as essentially the highest moral authority on the planet and whilst they're allowed to make mistakes this wasn't just a mistake.
This was allowing one of their own members to be enslaved, doing nothing about it and then leaving his daughter with no one to take care of her. They can argue all they like that they were doing it so that they could deal with him later but there was no reason to delay it, Paul managed to come up with a solution and he'd been doing the superhero thing for less than a year. No ones even indicated that they were working on a way of getting rid of him.
This has had a massive impact on the way that Paul sees the Justice League because they all agreed to this despite having no logical reason and their emotions should have been screaming at them to kick the ass of the guy who had hijacked the body of their good friend
This was allowing one of their own members to be enslaved, doing nothing about it and then leaving his daughter with no one to take care of her. They can argue all they like that they were doing it so that they could deal with him later but there was no reason to delay it, Paul managed to come up with a solution and he'd been doing the superhero thing for less than a year. No ones even indicated that they were working on a way of getting rid of him.
This has had a massive impact on the way that Paul sees the Justice League because they all agreed to this despite having no logical reason and their emotions should have been screaming at them to kick the ass of the guy who had hijacked the body of their good friend
Chaoswind
Lord of nonsense
- Location
- Latin America
Talking shit about morality from the guy that literally enslaved hundreds of soldiers and forced them to genocide their own people is pretty hollow.
Paul enslaved hundreds, used them to kill several dozen millions and helped a few billions of oppressed souls (important the point that the Citadelians weren't actively killing anyone, they just made policies that made said killings more acceptable). The Justice league allowed Nabu to enslave Zatara, used him to help hundreds of thousands, and probably saved billions as the plot from Dark Druid would have killed/damaged a significant part of the entire GREEN and RED aligned earth life forms.
Paul has no leg to stand up on this argument. The Justice league should have been better, but their failings are minuscule in comparison to Mr Genocide and enslavement of the will are the only option.
Prince Charon
Just zis guy, you know?
As others have said, this is something that I think you should expand upon: What did he think Paul meant?
Fanfic-wise, the superhero NGOs on Earth-1 of my Five Earths setting (see .sig) have something like that, as does the All-Star Squadron on Earth-2. Seems to be pretty rare in the comics (but see below).
I've been assuming that they did, as it makes sense (and was a factor in my deciding that well-funded and respected superhero groups would do that in Five Earths).
Smooshes then together and speaks in a creapy voice "and now kissssssss (in a paternal way)"
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Hestia&theCourt
Turns out we're plural too.
- Location
- In transition
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Dude. Lynne is twelve.
Sorry, automatic response whenever i see a "compare x character to y character."
- Location
- Hampden Park
- Location
- My bedroom
Except for Batman, he actually plans to kick Nabu out of Zatara somehow but lacks expertise in magic and connection to magic users, thus require much more time than Paul. Though he's super secretly and paranoid as always and keep everything mostly to himself.
- Location
- Hampden Park
Thank you, corrected.
The Justice League don't have anyone overseeing them. They don't report to anyone, except the Green Lanterns who report to Oa. Which is fine as long as they actually are paragons of moral righteousness.
He thought that the SI was saying that the SI came from a fictional world. Which did actually happen in Planetary.
Your table, column four, row eight. 'That is hirs'.
Thank you, corrected.
He didn't change. The circumstances changed.
The opinions stated by characters herein do not necessarily represent the considered view of the author.
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Empiricist2
Let's play doctor!
- Location
- Baton Rouge
The training isn't comparable. The GLC is essentially a police force, and the OLC is setting itself up to be a military. Of course one will focus much more on non-lethal abilities than maximum lethality abilities, and this would stay the same even if the rings and instructors were identical in ability.
(Kind of soapboxing past this point instead of replying to any one person)
The problem is that as it stands right now is that orange rings seem to be both better in execution due to their ability to use complex constructs, and similar in ease of use as green rings. The SI was saying how rookie OLC recruits could match Greenie veterans in power. And this is fine, so long as there is a corresponding drawback. The drawback is supposed to be the overwhelming desire, but we really haven't seen that aside from Koriand'r and Tarant briefly freaking out but not really doing anything.
This is a good encapsulation of why I find power rings in general and orange rings specifically interesting. But we're not seeing it, we're seeing the SI hand out lots of rings and everything going fine, with no real view into any internal struggles the recruits are experiencing. I'm not going to say that the current situation is boring or doesn't make for a good story, because that's simply not true, but it isn't what it could be given the legwork that has already been established to make the rings interesting, make them more than really fancy weapons.
- Location
- USA
I think part of the reason that isn't happening is that he's been recruiting based purely on stable desires he can see with empathic vision. He's basically targeting people with desires nearly as stable as his own when he first got the ring, and then warning them about the side effects.
He's also only been recruiting for what? Six weeks? It took him a lot longer to start going orange light crazy. I'd expect him to start getting calls from Dox or Hinon in a month or two about their new lanterns getting in over their heads, but based on his recruiting criteria, it's a bit early.
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