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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Twelve)

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Nero200 said:
I'm pretty sure a call to the controllers can shut down the ring he just gave him.
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Even easier: just do what he did to Ragnar and call the guy's ring away. Most people short of Larfleeze or a Controller couldn't emotionally resist that. Physically, maybe (looking at you, Sodam Yat), but at that point the ring probably isn't working for them anyway, which is the tough part of the battle.
 
Mr Zoat said:
Thank you, corrected.

I remember hearing that the introduction of tea made us less healthy, because people switched from having porridge for breakfast to having toast.
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Toast actually causes less health problems that fresh bread and eating toast is optional. How "toasty" the bread is also influences how damaging it is.

Not to mention that again, there any many blends of tea, and some are more "healthy" that others.

And tea does have caffeine, if you really want a healthy breakfast eat fruit instead.

Tea being relaxing is a cultural thing because it forces you to waste some time doing just that. Heck the whole point of the tea ceremony seems to force a truce and waste time.
 
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Meanwhile at OL HQ

Dox: Okay with him back on earth maybe I can get some work done without any more surprises...... GODDAMIT PAUL!!!!!!

*Warning Rage detected*
 
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Gantradies said:
Trying to remember, hasn't his current incarnation completely destroyed his life ( and ended up in an ironic hell ala Red Hulk, to the point that he, sharding Thinderbolt Ross REALISED that he'd EARNED it), or did that get retconned again?
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On that, I couldn't tell you. I started to zone out a bit after World War Hulk.

On a personal note...I really, REALLY, HATE the Red hulks. I especially hate that Ross and Betty became them. I mean first off both have become, and then lost, super powered forms way too often. Secondly...we didn't need more Hulks. Gamma mutates are one thing, and a staple of Hulk baddies, but the point generally was that they were all different. Besides, the Hulk already HAD a "dark" reflection. The Abomination, and to a lesser extent Madman.
 
Coda said:
:Citation Needed:

Last I checked, toast was considered carcinogenic in a way that bread wasn't, and bread is already fully cooked so it's unlikely that cooking it more is going to make it somehow healthier.
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My grandparents were forbidden to eat bread unless it was at least a day old because bread right out the oven was "bad". If that's right or wrong is still being debated but whatever.

And newsflash everything causes cancer! But toast is way down the list than tobacco.

The list of things that cause cancer is getting ridiculous. Now is "old age causes cancer".

As we age, cancer rates go up as immune system winds down
 
Mr Zoat said:
"I would cite Idaho versus Weaver there, Flash. The police shot first. He was acting in self defence."

"Theyy weeren't a threatt to someone as ttough as he iss."

"How was he supposed to know that? He hasn't even been on Earth an hour."

"There are bbodies in the wreckage."

"If he killed his attackers, then it was self defence."
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That's not even close to self-defense.

He's a Superman-grade brute. He's so invulnerable that the bullets don't appear to even be able to muss up his hair, they just bounced right off and didn't even make it to his skin. He doesn't get to attack someone with deadly force when he's not actually being threatened.

I'm sure you can tweak things (a la Nabu) to make him more sympathetic and the heroes more moronic, but in the comics, he never claimed self-defense; rather, it was pretty clear that he attacked (and killed four people) because he's a Lawful Stupid barbarian with a code of honor that demands that he respond to any attack, despite his associate informing him that they were lawman and the two of them should just back off and leave.

Also, those he killed? Not the one who provoked the attack. (In the comics, at least.) Greggson didn't die; it was three soldiers just doing their jobs and one civilian who paid the price for Konvikt to protect his "honor".

... and, sure, Paul can try to weasel out of things with the lack of absolute proof as to who was actually responsible for killing people, but Xor knows the truth.
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I find myself perplexed by how Paul wants to hold heroes to the highest standards of behavior and decision-making, but villains just get excuses. It's like he grades the world on a morality curve, with heroes getting castigated for not being perfect enough and villains get praised for not being too evil.
 
Tesuji said:
I find myself perplexed by how Paul wants to hold heroes to the highest standards of behavior and decision-making, but villains just get excuses. It's like he grades the world on a morality curve, with heroes getting castigated for not being perfect enough and villains get praised for not being too evil.
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To be fair is not like he could know if their weapons were gonna kill him or not.

He was attacked just by walking into town. There is a new law that covers non humans and he responded to being attacked. Had he been way less squishy? Then the US military just killed an alien that wasn't hurting anyone.

And if Green Lanterns that last I checked don't have any agreement with the UN, can come to earth to arrest aliens why can't orange lanterns?

Sure members of the League have agreements with the UN but not every GL that comes to Earth has that membership.

Now giving a suspect a power ring? That's a stupid move.
 
Tesuji said:
That's not even close to self-defense.
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In the US, it's self defence if you think you're being threatened, whether or not you actually were.

There are plenty of weapons that Humans have in their possession capable of hurting him. He has no way to know what the locals are equipped with except by letting it hit him.
I'm sure you can tweak things (a la Nabu) to make him more sympathetic and the heroes more moronic, but in the comics, he never claimed self-defense; rather, it was pretty clear that he attacked (and killed four people) because he's a Lawful Stupid barbarian with a code of honor that demands that he respond to any attack, despite his associate informing him that they were lawman and the two of them should just back off and leave.

Also, those he killed? Not the one who provoked the attack. (In the comics, at least.) Greggson didn't die; it was three soldiers just doing their jobs and one civilian who paid the price for Konvikt to protect his "honor".
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Three soldiers who sided with the people who launched an unprovoked attack on him. When he found out that a civilian had died he was distraught.
I find myself perplexed by how Paul wants to hold heroes to the highest standards of behavior and decision-making, but villains just get excuses. It's like he grades the world on a morality curve, with heroes getting castigated for not being perfect enough and villains get praised for not being too evil.
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Because if you're going to put yourself on a pedestal you better deserve it. Where as someone like Leonard Snart be the first to admit that he's a nasty bit of work.
 
Mr Zoat said:
Lantern Xor's eyes flare orange and he leaps into the sky, Mister Allen watching in shock for a moment before turning his attention to me. "That isn't going to help!"

I shrug. "Helped him."
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Queshire said:
Really now OL, there's a time and a place for a "gotta catch them all" mentality.
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Orange Lantern, Hoarder of people down on their luck and Charity cases. Realistically, he's stopping people from creating their own villains.

To some conspiracy theorists it looks like Orange Lantern is taking every villain there is and "redeeming" them.

Probably to create his own evil army.

Yeah,
 
Pinklestia said:
My grandparents were forbidden to eat bread unless it was at least a day old because bread right out the oven was "bad". If that's right or wrong is still being debated but whatever.
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Past generations thought a lot of weird things with no basis in science. PRESENT generations believe such things as well, of course, but don't believe things just because people used to think it was true. People used to think leeches cured disease, too.

And newsflash everything causes cancer! But toast is way down the list than tobacco.
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Well yes, I wasn't saying toast was BAD for you, only that it wasn't BETTER for you than bread. The amount of acrylamide in toast is so small as to be effectively negligible.

EDIT: Are you, by chance, of Russian descent? Hot bread: delicious or deadly? | Boris Smus
 
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Tesuji said:
That's not even close to self-defense.

He's a Superman-grade brute. He's so invulnerable that the bullets don't appear to even be able to muss up his hair, they just bounced right off and didn't even make it to his skin. He doesn't get to attack someone with deadly force when he's not actually being threatened.

I'm sure you can tweak things (a la Nabu) to make him more sympathetic and the heroes more moronic, but in the comics, he never claimed self-defense; rather, it was pretty clear that he attacked (and killed four people) because he's a Lawful Stupid barbarian with a code of honor that demands that he respond to any attack, despite his associate informing him that they were lawman and the two of them should just back off and leave.

Also, those he killed? Not the one who provoked the attack. (In the comics, at least.) Greggson didn't die; it was three soldiers just doing their jobs and one civilian who paid the price for Konvikt to protect his "honor".

... and, sure, Paul can try to weasel out of things with the lack of absolute proof as to who was actually responsible for killing people, but Xor knows the truth.


I find myself perplexed by how Paul wants to hold heroes to the highest standards of behavior and decision-making, but villains just get excuses. It's like he grades the world on a morality curve, with heroes getting castigated for not being perfect enough and villains get praised for not being too evil.
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1.) Being a super man tier brute doesn't mean you have to let people shoot you. Naval personnel don't just let random people walk up and empty handgun clips into their ships. Especially when you consider that the universe is full of things that explicitly can hurt guys like that, like most members of Convict/Xor's people's law enforcement and military groups, not to mention the people they fight. I find the idea that being resilient means you have to tolerate more abuse just because you can take it to be more than a little fucked up. The people who make the CHOICE to do so are to be lauded of course, but you can't go around forcing everyone with a brute power to be meat shields who stand around letting other people attempt to hurt them all day.

2.) In the comic you showed Convikt's little buddy is not presented as being similarly bullet proof.

3.) Just because the first few rounds bounce off doesn't mean it will keep happening. They might pull out heavier weapons or there might be some sort of accumulative effect he doesn't know about.
 
Plus there's the difference in culture and how to respond, since to Konvikt he found himself on a backwater planet with a somewhat primitive society, his appearance plus his ability to casualty pick up a car caused them to panic and in their panic they noticed how a hand gun was ineffective and decided to escalate. It doesn't help that the nearest highest official is a known hardliner for anything pure human or America, who decided the best way to deal with the situation using even more firepower despite it being shown to be useless and probably caused more death and destruction than Konvikt, the thing is we see Konvict fire against the military but we don't see the stray bullets or missiles fired by the human soldiers hit other humans.

To Konvikt they decided to start a fight with a former soldier/warrior, whom recently suffered from a great tragedy and lost his ability to communicate with others, and wouldn't be to hard-pressed to value his own health and well being on a bunch of primitives who decided to throw lives away an obviously greater threat but do so anyway. To Hardcastle the enemy is another alien come to destroy humanity, or the 'American people', and the only solution is to destroy it before it destroys them regardless of what some third party interference says otherwise.

The problem with 'Justice' is what exactly it stands for, doing what is morally right or legally right according to law and order, most often the case vigilante heroes do the right thing by stopping criminals but the way they do it is often the case illegal. The friction between Paul and the Flash is due to a difference in point of view; to Paul he sees death and destruction due to an inability to communicate and how human error caused it to happen plus how flawed and contrary the legal system is, while Flash sees Konvikt as another criminal or monster intentionally causing havoc and the officers and soldiers are just trying to stop him despite not knowing its being ordered by someone who chose conflict over a peaceful resolution and is allowed to do so because he can legally.

Paul also noted how Flash still hasn't upgraded to a personal subspace inventory and relies heavily on what he has on hand or can carry. Chances are the League still use basic translators with the more technologically advance members not sharing with them or making it more mainstream for the general public. Maybe Paul should put more effort into making the Thinking Cap more available or figure out some other way to give people the ability to use telepathy or have more Martians move to Earth, if not expand the number of Earth based Orange Lanterns.
 
Mr Zoat said:
In the US, it's self defence if you think you're being threatened, whether or not you actually were.
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Sorry, use of lethal force requires more. You can't just be threatened, you need to believe that you're being threatened with death or serious bodily harm, and your belief needs to be reasonable. In addition, Massachusetts has a 'duty to retreat': If you're not in your home, you can only use lethal force in situations where you're unable to escape (and note that Konvikt demonstrated Hulk-level jumping away abilities in the comics).

He was about as threatened as an adult faced by children throwing spitballs. More to the point (in the comics at least), he never claimed or thought that he felt threatened, even when thinking about it later. His sole justification was that his honor demanded that he respond to an attack accordingly.

But, more importantly, these aren't questions that cops or random vigilantes get to decide. If someone kills someone else, the guy who's suspected of having done the killing being arrested and the courts ruling on whether it was reasonable is how it works. It doesn't matter if there's reasonable doubt; this isn't the point where that gets hashed out. Paul doesn't get to tell the JLU to go fuck themselves when they try to take Konvikt into custody, or at least, he shouldn't get to without there being consequences.

It's also worth noting this isn't a misunderstood good guy. I mean, the entire point of the character was that his view of 'Justice' was sufficiently skewed that he could be used as part of a supervillain plot to rewrite reality along new conceptual lines that would favor evil instead of good.

For context, here's what happened in the comics after this: Konvikt broke out of prison to try to find the family of the civilian he killed, to make reparations... only to find out that a reality rewrite had made it so he never died. This somehow meant that Konvikt couldn't redeem his honor, so he got involved in a supervillain plot to rewrite reality again, either back to where the guy died (in which case he could then make reparations) or to another reality in which the guy lived (in in which case Konvikt's the one saving the guy's life, so things balance out). In the process of getting enough power so they could rewrite reality, Konvikt killed a bunch of other innocents, which he justified because that would all go away in the reality rewrite, too, right?

I was hoping that the entire "Paul never finished Trinity" thing was foreshadowing, that he doesn't actually realize that Konvikt's talk of 'honor' and 'justice' doesn't necessarily match his own understanding of those concepts, and that we'll get to see Paul get bitten on the ass for believing he knows everything, as opposed to yet another incident of him being right and everyone else being wrong and stupid.
 
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I think we can say the situation is legally murky, and if they catch US soldiers trying to cover up evidence it gets even murkier. On the ethics side of thing, convicts conduct was not exactly stellar, if the locals are running away from you and then you encounter an armed barricade approaching it is kinda dumb.

Even disallowing him being able to understand body language he should have been able to realize that the locals found him threating, running away is a fairly universal sign of fear, and a soldier should have been able to recognize a hastily put together barricade. He should also have known damn well that closing to melee range with a gun line can be seen as a hostile action.

That said, the human's side of this was at least as bad. Some giant alien dude just sorta wandering around not really hurting anyone? you do not respond to that with a gun line, and you sure as shit don't confront it with a gun line while it's still in a population center. Get forces on standby sure, but send someone out to try and talk things down, or wait for the justice league and their telepaths.

On the whole, both sides kinda fucked up. But convict is just some guy, he's a soldier trained to apply violent solutions to violent problems. He's not an idiot, but he's very much not trained to deal with first contact situations. The humans, on the other hand, were reacting as an institution, one that has seen enough shit like this that they should be held to a higher standard. They had a lot more say in how this would play out than the one confused soldier trying to figure out what the fuck.

TLDR, convict fucked up but diplomacy is not his bag so it's somewhat excusable, the general fucked up big time and this is exactly his bag so it very much isn't.
 
random_npc said:
I think we can say the situation is legally murky, and if they catch US soldiers trying to cover up evidence it gets even murkier. On the ethics side of thing, convicts conduct was not exactly stellar, if the locals are running away from you and then you encounter an armed barricade approaching it is kinda dumb.

Even disallowing him being able to understand body language he should have been able to realize that the locals found him threating, running away is a fairly universal sign of fear, and a soldier should have been able to recognize a hastily put together barricade. He should also have known damn well that closing to melee range with a gun line can be seen as a hostile action.

That said, the human's side of this was at least as bad. Some giant alien dude just sorta wandering around not really hurting anyone? you do not respond to that with a gun line, and you sure as shit don't confront it with a gun line while it's still in a population center. Get forces on standby sure, but send someone out to try and talk things down, or wait for the justice league and their telepaths.

On the whole, both sides kinda fucked up. But convict is just some guy, he's a soldier trained to apply violent solutions to violent problems. He's not an idiot, but he's very much not trained to deal with first contact situations. The humans, on the other hand, were reacting as an institution, one that has seen enough shit like this that they should be held to a higher standard. They had a lot more say in how this would play out than the one confused soldier trying to figure out what the fuck.

TLDR, convict fucked up but diplomacy is not his bag so it's somewhat excusable, the general fucked up big time and this is exactly his bag so it very much isn't.
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And no one is saying otherwise, the point is that Paul fucked up even more than both sides combined. The Alien dude entered US jurisdiction illegally and appears to have committed several crimes including some fairly major ones. Yes, there are extenuating circumstances that can be used to argue he wasn't at fault for the kerfuffle and subsequent deads, but that is for the COURTS to decide, not Paul.
 
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