Xavier Bronze
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In space?
With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Twelve)
- Thread starter Mr Zoat
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In space?
RichardWhereat
Feanor did nothing wrong.
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- Australia
They are the worst at planning.
Seems par for the course since they keep fucking up royally like this.
I don't believe I ever said that.
Nope, it's a means of taking control of someone elses body, and using their magic.
The fundamental difference is that cybernetics aren't a preexisting sentient life that you're dominating and using as a meat puppet to walk around with, until it dies, and then you replace it with a different sentient meat puppet whose mind you lock away.
Cybernetics are addons. Sentient life forms aren't.
You, you do get this, right?
And I find logical fallacies such as the straw man argument, and faulty analogy and false equivalency to be abhorrent. Yay, we're connecting by finding things abhorrent.
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And then Kon knocks Oceanus the fuck out, and Paul and he drag its body down into Tartarus, and Paul goes on a date with Melinoe.
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- Location
- above the four pillars of the golden sea of chaos
For those who remember it, back in the days of first gen pokemon with ash and friends there was an episode involving giant pokemon, sealed in ancient items, the fact Paul is on site raises the chance of a capture and experimentsituation happening.
I have to wonder though, what about using the ring to move Oceanus to the moon?
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- USA
To play Devil's advocate, Nabu has been offered a golem body before and straight up refused it. There are other potential options (dead body, brain-dead body, etc.) but Nabu might've refused those too.
Also, it's entirely possible Kent was trying to find a successor, but didn't find anyone who was willing. I mean, it's a pretty selective criteria. You need to be A) magically powerful enough to support Nabu (though given Wally could do it, that may be a low bar), B) young enough that you're not gonna retire in a few years anyway, C) have enough free time to go heroing, and D) be willing to be puppetted by a powerful magical being who doesn't really care about his hosts (I'm sure Kent would've told a potential successor about all the good and bad parts of being Fate). For all we know, Kent offered the helmet to every heroic magician who crossed his path, but nobody took him up on it.
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- madison
heh, I just realised something. The idea of this attack was to either discredit the league, or kill them. instead, there was a five-mile giant rampaging in the ocean, sending out tidal waves that was contained and then stopped by the league. This just proved how vital the league is, though it might have been scary enough to drive home the point that the world cannot remain magically crippled.
The helmet itself is a phylactery - a life support system that keeps Nabu around. The "take over people putting it on" is added functionality.
Taking over others (without their consent) is bad, yes. Being a lich isn't.
Dead body wouldn't have worked, and brain dead one might not have worked either - Nabu requires a magically active host to function. Refusing the golem body is bad, if completely understandable (Nabu can't trust anyone to not screw him over if he lets the body go for even a moment)
We actually know that Kent wasn't looking for a successor, he only started several weeks before Klarion's attack. Also, Wally is likely quite magically active, thanks to the alchemical formula coursing through his body.
The Bushranger
In the Danger Zone
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- TSAB Asura
And the Titans are arguably Primordials, to boot.
Jamie Roberts
Hávamál 127
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- she/her
No, Nabu was offered a golem body by Paul, easily the least trustworthy person Nabu knows. A man who couldn't more obviously have an unspecified grudge against Nabu if he spent hours monologing about it while Nabu was tied to a rocket. We have no idea how Nabu would respond to being offered a golem body by anyone else, we just know that he doesn't trust the untrustworthy guy. Which, you know, usually we'd regard as a sign of basic competence, but Nabu's been cast as a villain and is therefore stupid apparently.
Oh yeah, I've been thinking about why I feel the need to vocally defend Nabu, and I think its a two part thing. First of all, I play Devil's Advocate by nature, and the story villainizes him while never really giving Nabu any kind of chance to act differently so I defend him. But secondly, and this is important, Nabu is being villainized. You guys know me; I prefer villains to heroes, and Fate is not one of us. Just because the good guys are trying to draw readers with some weird civil war arc doesn't mean they get to exile people to our side of the line. You think villains don't have infighting? Of course we do. But when Lex Luthor and Gorilla Grodd have a throw down, is there some weird thing hanging over it where, just because they're fighting, obviously one of them is a hero now? No. That would be ridiculous.
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- madison
I don't think it's added functionality, keeping him tethered and letting him possess people are the 2 core features of its design. He also knew what he was getting into, when he went looking for life extension methods he decided that one that left him an intimate helmet without a meat suit was worth it. He sat down and thought "is the risk of ending up on a shelf for decades and possibly needing to use unwilling hosts worth it?" and decided that yes it was. He did not go looking for another method, or build in a way to communicate with someone without putting him a position to steal their bodies.
That's not enough to make him evil by itself, but it does kind of shift responsibility around a bit. He made an informed decision to bind himself to that helmet, and accept the relevant risks rather than use another form of immortality. He does not have much of a leg to stand on when he complains it makes it hard for him to find hosts, especially when by all accounts he treats his hosts like shit. The last guy stopped putting him on because nabu was fucking with his personal life so he would spend less time living and more time renting out his body.
Finding a workaround would be hard, but it would likely be doable. I admit the golem body idea would scream trap to him, as would anything paul suggests. But by every indication nabu is not looking for an alternative in his spare time, he sees no problem with the arrangement where he keeps a good man enslaved, or making preparations for his next host he'll be needing a decade or two from now. He's fine with keeping his body snatcher tactics because as far as he is concerned they work. Nabu was wronged, but I put freeing mr zatara from slavery above nabus well-being. Now ideally Paul would pry him off and then Nabu would wake up on a weak immobile golem with the opportunity to negotiate for permanent access to a strong one, but Ol is going to just murder him because at his heart he is agent orange and nabu messed with his people. Not as good at just forcing him off zatara, but better than letting nabu keep his slave.
Nabu is about as LN as it's possible to be. he's not really evil, he's unreasonable and in conflict with a hero. He's a jackass, but calling him a villain in the sense that he's evil is an exaggeration.
Actually, we more or less do. Nabu wasn't going to take Zatara's word that he would put the helmet on until he swore a magically binding oath.
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- USA
How do we know that? Was it explicitly state somewhere? As for Wally, I wasn't sure how much magical potential he had. Nabu didn't really like him as a host, but that may just be him being picky.
That's fair. Accepting it from Paul would probably be dumb. Except Nabu has never, in 2000(?) years, tried to make a golem himself. Or ask another, friendly magician to help him. Etc. It's not just him being justifiably wary of Paul.
I dunno, Nabu's pretty obviously villainous. This goes back to my previous example. This is a millennia old Lord of Order. He's seriously not come up with a better idea than body-jacking (even if it's usually willing on the part of the human)? At some point, that refusal to change goes from being stubborn/conservative to being malicious.
And I was wrong:
From this we know that he didn't start looking early enough to take on an apprentice, and that he offered the helm to Zatara first. So, my guess, at most five years of trying on and off.
cupcakeviolater
Verified Cupcake
- Location
- USA
Insert 'praise the sun' meme here
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- Australia
Lol, what exactly are you basing that on?
He feels he can't take on an apprentice, why does that mean 5 years? Why not 10? Why not 50?
He doesn't say 'Wow, if only I had thought to train up an apprentice - specifically to be possessed by this asshole lich who deliberately ruined my life - a little earlier!'
And why only off and on? He directly says he spends all his time doing it.
Of course at this point Helios is looking at Rao going : NEENER NEENER NEENER NEENER THIS ONE IS MINE!
of course Rao is going: From one sun Deity to another KISS MY EXPLODING @&& while mumbling to himself should never bargained with an endless.....
PRAISE BE TO LORD HELIOS
MAY KON BECOME THE UNCONQUERED SON
They gonna need some SHADE!
of course Rao is going: From one sun Deity to another KISS MY EXPLODING @&& while mumbling to himself should never bargained with an endless.....
PRAISE BE TO LORD HELIOS
MAY KON BECOME THE UNCONQUERED SON
They gonna need some SHADE!
- Location
- sweden
Why? He might have been looking fervently for an apprentice since the moment he shelved the helmet and then switched to searching for a replacement the last 10 years. That does seem a bit unlikely but it's as well supported as what you said. A more likely explanation is that he searched for an apprentice or replacement off and on for the majority of his life post-superhero. When he got older and had approached most magical heroes he knew about he started searching for anyone he could.
Kent was an honest man, which means that any potential apprentice or replacement would hear a description of Nabu from someone who worked closely with him. No wonder nobody wanted the job.
RichardWhereat
Feanor did nothing wrong.
- Location
- Australia
You inspired me to artistry.
I am not going to apologise for genius.
Why use crude heavy metal fission devices when you can hit someone with the original fusion bomb?
Was a little worried about GuyIon just calling it a day. Thankfully they seem to be on the ball.
So is Paul going to try tanking that detonation or outrun it? Place your bets people!
Most of the amazons are so old they would have crumbled to dust without magic keeping them young. GL Scott's aged body is literally held together by physically manifest Willpower. The Vikings Paul lets wonder around are explicitly undead that are vacationing from the afterlife.
Living beyond his time is something Nabu should be congratulated on, not condemned for. Admittedly his method could do with some improvement (what idiot chooses to be a helmet?) but that is a separate issue.
Being a lich doesn't make Nabu reprehensible. Being an arsehole is what makes him reprehensible.
Was a little worried about GuyIon just calling it a day. Thankfully they seem to be on the ball.
So is Paul going to try tanking that detonation or outrun it? Place your bets people!
Most of the amazons are so old they would have crumbled to dust without magic keeping them young. GL Scott's aged body is literally held together by physically manifest Willpower. The Vikings Paul lets wonder around are explicitly undead that are vacationing from the afterlife.
Living beyond his time is something Nabu should be congratulated on, not condemned for. Admittedly his method could do with some improvement (what idiot chooses to be a helmet?) but that is a separate issue.
Being a lich doesn't make Nabu reprehensible. Being an arsehole is what makes him reprehensible.
RichardWhereat
Feanor did nothing wrong.
- Location
- Australia
Dominating and enslaving a persons body is what makes him reprehensible. Making the choice to be a lich that lives on through the domination of other sentient life forms as meat puppets, that's what makes him reprehensible.
I have nothing against trying to extend your life as long as possible. I do have things against, once you're dead, trying to live on by enslaving the body of a living person with their own life to live.
Now, if he decided to lich out of his own corpse, fine. Totally for that. However, that was not his choice.
I have nothing against trying to extend your life as long as possible. I do have things against, once you're dead, trying to live on by enslaving the body of a living person with their own life to live.
Now, if he decided to lich out of his own corpse, fine. Totally for that. However, that was not his choice.
I don't think the point was he lived too long but rather, the opinion was, that if your stuck in 3,000ish years of sensory deprivation it's probably time to roll the dice again.Why use crude heavy metal fission devices when you can hit someone with the original fusion bomb?
Was a little worried about GuyIon just calling it a day. Thankfully they seem to be on the ball.
So is Paul going to try tanking that detonation or outrun it? Place your bets people!
Most of the amazons are so old they would have crumbled to dust without magic keeping them young. GL Scott's aged body is literally held together by physically manifest Willpower. The Vikings Paul lets wonder around are explicitly undead that are vacationing from the afterlife.
Living beyond his time is something Nabu should be congratulated on, not condemned for. Admittedly his method could do with some improvement (what idiot chooses to be a helmet?) but that is a separate issue.
Being a lich doesn't make Nabu reprehensible. Being an arsehole is what makes him reprehensible.
I would disagree that it probably wasn't sensory dep though. We know that a Lord of Whatever is in fact some kind of giant magical energy structure in the subtle realms, so I'm doubtful that Nabu's only senses are on the material plane. Or even that he wouldn't be able to get back eventually.
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RichardWhereat
Feanor did nothing wrong.
- Location
- Australia
Eh, it's actually canon. Captain Marvel was not approving of Fate getting a seat in the JLA for coercing Zatara to take on the helmet after he refused to give up Zatanas body. Zoats SI just expressed the outrage that most people would if they weren't a cartoon character acting in the most expedient role for the plot.
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