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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Twelve)

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drasteed said:
Any other god trying will most likely get a Thunderbolt right on their head.
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There's more than one way to take power from a Titan.
Evil Plan said:
Mr Zoat, is this your preferred channel for typo reports and the like? I don't actually care about anything going on in this thread, I just drop by to report and sometimes to see if anyone beat me to it. Which is fine, but *shrug*.

Probably "upwards towards the barrier"?

When I think of "fluorescent tubes", I think of those yard-long fluorescent lightbulbs. On the other hand, the way they're being used makes me think of what I would call glow-sticks, except that I'm picturing them putting out more light than I associate with glow-sticks. This American reader is going to go google.

I suppose it doesn't strictly matter, since the linked images have little to do with the text, but that's not how I would have broken up those links. Unless you mean that the criminals in tights are armed with guns, in which case that is exactly what I would recommend.

"something even more manmade"? "something more smoothed out"? I didn't get this at all at first; after some further thought I think maybe you meant that it has been made more even by human (or human-like) efforts.
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Thank you, modified.
 
Jamie Roberts said:
You keep on using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

On a related note; buckle the f%$# up everybody, we're coming up on Paul's imminent assassination of Nabu so no prize for predicting that the morality arguments are going to get thick.
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*shrugs* he's being held/possessed under duress. Nabu forced him to submit by threatening to enslave his daughter for the rest of her life, and potentially beyond.

but i guess thats just my read/opinion of the situation. im admittedly biased, as i see no reason barring malice why a frikking lord of order is "stuck" as a glorified parasite, and he's consistently been irrationally hostile to the primary POV character without provocation.

i guess ive assumed he's COMPLETELY amoral. he's an entity of LAW. of ORDER,not good, and that sorta thing makes me nervous.

*grins* also, im assuming you've managed to mostly catch up? :D
 
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Jamie Roberts said:
I do not think it means what you think it means.
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The very nature of the Hostage carries with it a transitive property. When Zatanna donned the helmet, once Nabu intervened to prevent her taking off the helmet by her own free will, she became a hostage. When Giovanni offered himself in exchange for the release of his daughter, once she was released and he taken into Nabu's power, he became a hostage. Nabu's coercion at the time negated any hypothetical ability for him to grant the consent that would prevent him from being hostage. This is basic kidnapping 101 here. If a gunman on the run takes a child hostage to secure his freedom, and the child's parent speaks up and says, "No, take me instead!" one of the fun things that can happen is the law can charge on two counts now. One for taking the Child, and another for the parent.

Did you not get the memo? I mean it was a while ago now, but a bunch of the people got together and decided this was the sort of shit you want to put a stop to in civilized society. So they made some laws and stuff.
 
I'm going to repost an exact copy of what I said about Nabu over on industrious's thread:

Jamie Roberts said:
With This Ring certainly played a part to be sure but nabus action at the start of the series when he first appeared were a little well dickish. But i think a part of that is that they didn't really flesh out his character all that much in the first season and not at all in the second.
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Sure, but lets look at what we do know about him.
  1. 1945: he started to get a bit possessive of his only friend/connection-to-the-outside-world, so he ended up being put on a shelf and left to stew on it for most of a century.
  2. August 19th 2010: When he finally got back off the shelf he was a bit reluctant to go back, so Wally outright swore to help Nabu find a more permanent host. Think about that; this is an intensely powerful magical being, and Wally used the words "I swear" when making an agreement with him. Those things matter to supernatural beings.
  3. October 1st: Next time he comes off the self is when Aqualad used him as a "Plan B" against the Injustice League. It is here that Nabu learns that d^%$-all is being done to find him a new host and, in fact, he's been sitting on a souvenir shelf for over a month. After, presumably, extracting some sort of oath of assistance "for real this time" from Aqualad, he lets aqualad go. Nabu is subsequently put back on the shelf and forgotten about.
  4. November 6th: Zatanna puts on the Helm to fight Klarion. From Zatanna, Fate learns that A) nothing even distantly resembling progress is being made in finding him a new long-term body, B) He's still being stored on the souvenir shelf, and most concerningly C) The Team is falling into an obvious pattern in handling him. That is; they let him off the shelf to fight something big, make some empty promises about helping him find a more long-term arrangement, and then do nothing of the kind.


So now I want you to imagine that you are Nabu. That you are the one who's put up with all that stuff I just listed. You're being kept around as a power up and nothing else. You might not be able to vanquish Kalrion, but if you'd been active beforehand you sure as hell would have been able to prevent this mess(1). These people have demonstrated twice now that they are approximately as trustworthy as a hungry wolf left to guard your pet bunny.
(1)Don't agree? I direct your attention that for the entire rest of the canon series; Dr Fate is active and Klarion never does anything that big again. And by season two he's basically been demoted to "evil transportation".

And then one of these d&^%waffles calls out: {sic}"Fate! ... Great Nabu, release my daughter."

Wat do?
[]Trust this man implicitly. He wasn't willing to even pretend to make any kind of promises or guarantees, but something about that mustache just makes you want to trust him with your well being.
[]Deny his request, but stick around to talk it out. Who knows, they might change your mind.
[]Deny his request, then immediately fly off. This conversation is over. You've got a lot of lost-time to catch up on, you need to get started.
[]Fuck this guy. Fuck him, and his mustache. Fire a giant doom-beam warning shot at him, then another two at those two oathbreakers from earlier. They'll all almost certainly live, but it'll at least make you feel better. Then head off to Jamaica and catch up on some R&R. See if there are any reporters with disingenuous assertions to punch while you're down there. After a few weeks, get started on that save-the-world-from-evil thing, but only if you feel like it.

Now remember that Nabu picked the second one. Would you have done so?
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Can you honestly say that you don't understand why Nabu isn't entirely unjustified here? Seriously?

And can I remind you that I'm saying this? ME! HAVE I MENTIONED HOW MUCH I HATE BEING THE VOICE OF REASON!?
 
Jamie Roberts said:
Can you honestly say that you don't understand why Nabu isn't entirely unjustified here? Seriously?
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Just because you can see why someone does something doesn't make the action completely horrible. Yes, Nabu was treated badly. Most people, when treated badly, don't go so far as to enslave people.
 
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nabu has a point, no one seemed willing or able to find him a new host and the ones he found where not willing to deal with him. He probably doesn't deserve outright execution, but their are alternatives to keeping someone permanently enslaved that he does not seem to be perusing, even excluding the offer that came from what he considered a wildly untrustworthy source.
 
Jamie Roberts said:
I'm going to repost an exact copy of what I said about Nabu over on industrious's thread: Can you honestly say that you don't understand why Nabu isn't entirely unjustified here? Seriously?
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That's a damn good argument. I'd never thought of it that way. He IS certainly enslaving Zatara, but as his alternative is essentially consignment to the void with occasional use as a Mario Power-up, potentially followed by the eventual destruction of humanity as his responsibilities continue to lapse... Hell, on self preservation alone, most people pick themselves over someone else, whether they'll admit it outside such a situation or not.

Still, he ought to have searched out a body himself by now, or created one from whole cloth. Paul even offered to do that for him, I believe. I don't think it's a case of either party being in the right, so much as both being in the wrong. I'd even argue Nabu is "more wrong" assuming you believe that's a thing, since he really ought to have resolved this years ago when with Nelson. He's a big boy, and he can damn well clean up his own messes.

Regardless, I have a sympathy I didn't before, and that's thanks to you.


On a separate note, does anyone know whether things can continue to function in Lantern hyperspace, or are they just frozen in time, no arguments, no option to let it run in the dimensional pocket? I mean, I realize they work again when they come out, but I'm curious.

Also-also, has Zoat mentioned how he determines charge expenditure? Is it random, by narrative tension, or does he have some kind of ballpark chart he uses to decide how costly each action is? I'd be interested in a copy if so.
 
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random_npc said:
nabu has a point, no one seemed willing or able to find him a new host and the ones he found where not willing to deal with him. He probably doesn't deserve outright execution, but their are alternatives to keeping someone permanently enslaved that he does not seem to be perusing, even excluding the offer that came from what he considered a wildly untrustworthy source.
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dont get me wrong, im as sympathetic as any sane person would to the plight of someone who's spend 4 decades locked silently screaming in their own "head" alone.
its just that his history of unethical/immoral behaviour predates the sensdep, and was in fact directly responsible for it, and we have no word (yet) on just how LONG he's been manipulating his chosen host's to isolate them/make them more tractable- and he went after someone who WASN'T responsible for his condition. the only thing that made Mr neilson's case stand out is he CAUGHT Nabu systematically sabotaging his life in the act,likely unapologeticly, and ceased acting as Dr Fate.

(which is one of my buttons, ill admit. you want revenge? great! fine! terrific! go after the person who actually WRONGED you, not people who just happen to KNOW them!)
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ok, now im REALLY curious about whats going on in the League's end. if it turns out they HAVE been working on a solution, im going to spend the following hour banging my head against a wall
 
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Odysseus2099 said:
What other options did he have? Besides staying on the shelf I mean.
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Reasoned argument? Insisting to speak to someone who might actually listen to him? Appealing to his fellow Lords of Order to light a fire under the butts of people so that they'll actually start looking for a new host? Controlling Zatanna's body only long enough to get himself a host who actually consented? Actually giving Paul's offer to make a magically-powerful golem body the consideration it deserves? Heck, even enslaving one of the magic users he literally just captured and who really have no room to claim moral superiority over Nabu? Literally anything that doesn't involve forcibly enslaving a sixteen-year-old girl for the rest of her life or holding her hostage in order to do the same to her father?!
 
Crimson Doom said:
Reasoned argument? Insisting to speak to someone who might actually listen to him? Appealing to his fellow Lords of Order to light a fire under the butts of people so that they'll actually start looking for a new host? Controlling Zatanna's body only long enough to get himself a host who actually consented? Actually giving Paul's offer to make a magically-powerful golem body the consideration it deserves? Heck, even enslaving one of the magic users he literally just captured and who really have no room to claim moral superiority over Nabu? Literally anything that doesn't involve forcibly enslaving a sixteen-year-old girl for the rest of her life or holding her hostage in order to do the same to her father?!
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*shudders* any word on what he did to those guys, anyway?
 
Crimson Doom said:
Reasoned argument? Insisting to speak to someone who might actually listen to him? Appealing to his fellow Lords of Order to light a fire under the butts of people so that they'll actually start looking for a new host? Controlling Zatanna's body only long enough to get himself a host who actually consented? Actually giving Paul's offer to make a magically-powerful golem body the consideration it deserves? Heck, even enslaving one of the magic users he literally just captured and who really have no room to claim moral superiority over Nabu? Literally anything that doesn't involve forcibly enslaving a sixteen-year-old girl for the rest of her life or holding her hostage in order to do the same to her father?!
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you forgot cut a deal where zatanna still gets to live his life. Hell something as one or two days a week off would be a massive improvement. If a lord of order couldn't' whip up a binding contract I would be shocked. Nabu has a legitimate grievance, but he blasted the moral high ground into a despicable foxhole really damn quick.
 
Crimson Doom said:
Literally anything that doesn't involve forcibly enslaving a sixteen-year-old girl for the rest of her life or holding her hostage in order to do the same to her father?!
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Fourteen. Zatanna was fourteen.
The_Letter_K said:
Also-also, has Zoat mentioned how he determines charge expenditure? Is it random, by narrative tension, or does he have some kind of ballpark chart he uses to decide how costly each action is? I'd be interested in a copy if so.
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Mostly, it isn't an issue any longer. His personal lantern is fully repaired and he has two rings. It's the sort of thing he checks every so often because that's a sensible thing to do, rather than something to worry about.

Usually when I have to come up with a number, I say 'he recharged here, this was cheep, this was cheep, this cost a bit more, what's a reasonable figure?'. I certainly don't have anything written down.
 
a fluctuating power cost does kind of fit the nature of a ring too. It might get a bit more efficient when he really wants to not run out of charge, but gets less power efficient when he's not thinking about charge too much.
 
>Conversations about Nabu and Zatarra again

That's a shame, I was glad to see the Titan V Titan hype. It'll get solved in like two months or so anyway so chill lol
 
Gantradies said:
from our POV, of COURSE it does.
From the POV of a being who, better than even odds, has no innate or learnt sense of morality?
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If Nabu is too mentally inflexible to consider the idea that he needs to work within the moral framework of the people he associates with (an inherently Orderly idea), then he doesn't deserve to have the power that he does.
 
Gantradies said:
From the POV of a being who, better than even odds, has no innate or learnt sense of morality?
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That's not quite accurate. Nabu most certainly has a sense of morality -- it's just not a human sense of morality. To Nabu, order IS good, and chaos IS evil, and our silly human notions of freedom and justice are irrelevant.
 
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