- Location
- Somewhere out there
Iiiiiiii... don't think that's true, no. Nearly all of the comments have been talking about how the SI is being "unrealistically dense."
With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Twelve)
- Thread starter Mr Zoat
- Start date
- Status
Science
If you're reading this, omae wa mo shindeiru.
- Location
- Killeen, TX
The reason she wants sex is to fulfill a desire, even if she doesn't desire the sex in itself she'd still see a desire.
1.- I was going with "using the chemical castration as an excuse as for why, when the character doesn't care enough either way instead of just coming out and saying he's asexual(hyposexual?)"
2.- Renegade also modified himself, he could be hyper-sexual when compared to baseline Paul as a side-effect.
For someone with empathic vision.
- Location
- Somewhere out there
I can see the COMBINATION of those factors being true, sure -- I can believe that people would say that being that dense while having additional information would be unrealistic. But the comments on unrealistic-ness seem to be focused more on the denseness than on the empathic vision, and I don't think that it was an unrealistic mistake to have made.
- Location
- Canada
It's very much because of his power set in my case, don't know about everyone else, but that's how it is for me.
Empiricist2
Let's play doctor!
- Location
- Baton Rouge
I agree.
Well, he seems to have some trouble relating to people, but within the bell curve of normal humans.
Yes, but he wouldn't see what that desire was unless he was willing to invade her privacy. Since he was relying on his empathic vision, and he didn't see the violet he would normally associate with wanting a sexual relationship, he didn't pick up on it.
He was worried about being overcome with sexual desire because of the orange ring. He turned his testosterone down, not off, in the hope that the combination of increased desires and decreased testosterone would balance out to roughly his normal state.
Jamie Roberts
Hávamál 127
- Location
- N/A
- Pronouns
- she/her
I'll tell you after I've read it; I fell behind a while ago and it is really hard to catch back up with Zoat's writing speed.
Science
If you're reading this, omae wa mo shindeiru.
- Location
- Killeen, TX
"Show, don't tell", we've been told Paul wants it yet he hasn't shown any initiative or made any attempt(pre or post enlightenment) to seize an opportunity where that need is fulfilled. When Paul wants to share Jovium/Danner Formula/Bit of Tech or Magic with the world, he comes up with a plan or strategy to do so safely, he doesn't decide not to do anything because there are dangers involved. If Paul doesn't want it, that's fine, but he's enlightened to his own desires, if he feels that he ought to want sex or a romantic relationship because that's what is expected of him then he should be aware of the fact that he doesn't actually want those things:
Paul can simply not care about it, or consider it extremely low priority(asexual/hyposexual), but if that's the case he can just remove all the convoluted excuses and have him express that, he's supposedly aware of his desires and the driving impulses behind it. Having the "cockblocking anime antics played in a 'realistic-ish' setting" shtick be the reason why Paul hasn't involved himself with someone is getting annoying.
He is considered that dense in matters of romance and sex because of the empathic vision, if a generally clueless guy(Gardner) in another situation made that mistake he'd be seen differently, but he isn't someone else. Harem anime protagonist density comes from the fact that the protagonist is only that dense in that sort of circumstances.
Not quite, he said the reason for reduced sex-drive was the suppression, which was a result of his fears of becoming a rapist, fears caused by that comment Alan made when they first met. Testosterone handles more than sex-drive, completely removing it would come with a host of health issues. Again:
Empiricist2
Let's play doctor!
- Location
- Baton Rouge
He specifically said in Carpe Tempus that he wants a girlfriend, and did put at least some effort into getting one through Melinöe, Jade, and Beautia. Not a ton of effort, I'll grant that, but there are generally more consequences for failure in that area compared to promoting tech growth.
The rings take care of all health issues. I mean, they can and have recreated large parts of his body from nothing in seconds. A little tweaking is easy.
And I still stand by my interpretation.
- Location
- The Outer Plane Of Munchkinry.
it could be that he's being dense because of the empathic vision, having a constant stream of other peoples emotions and how they motivate them could make a persons forget that there are other types of such if they didn't get into the habit of thinking twice.
Prince Charon
Just zis guy, you know?
Then I'm probably not the one you should be quoting for this, because I did include 'regardless of sex' (or words to that effect) not only in the post you quoted, but in the part of that post, that you quoted.
Which is why I said you should be prepared to duck, and hope you don't need to. I also think that if it's coming from someone you know well, you should probably have some idea of their maturity level.
- Location
- Canada
This was discussed previously.
Science
If you're reading this, omae wa mo shindeiru.
- Location
- Killeen, TX
Yes, that is rather the point. Let's remember that he also "tried" to get with Harleen just now.
Thing is, he's making Paul superficially go through the motions of someone who is interested, but that's about it. He writes it as if Paul getting a waifu is some form of obligation he has to fulfill to the readers, which he does not have(I've mentioned before, I only roleplay as a shipper.). If he wants to write a Paul that isn't normally(without Grayven's modifications) not interested in that he should just do that and not half-ass it, if he's trying to write a Paul that is interested then he's making a mess of that aspect of the story and therefore the criticism is still valid.
I don't see how what you quoted contradicts me? The Alan bit was mentioned out of story as a reason for the fear, over on SB I think. That still doesn't change the fact that it doesn't seem as anything other than an excuse.
lancelot
Completely worth it
If this ham handed dumb ass method is your way to ignore even the implication of a sexual relationship then please for now on skip all romance. You are literally ruining you character and the story by making your character this stupid.
Xavier Bronze
The Avatar
- Location
- Metropolis
Okay, I think people are being way too harsh now. I'm gonna agree with the people who're saying the mistake itself is perfectly realistic and even understandable. My co-writer Alex is sometimes even more clueless than this. I basically have to tell him when people are flirting with him, or upset with him. So yes. It's possible.
Yes, it was stupid. People do stupid things. Even smart people do stupid things. Good writers write people doing stupid things. SI Paul has done many stupid things before, especially related to social interaction. This is realistic and in character. And so far, well written.
Also worth pointing out, it's not over. We haven't seen how SI Paul responds to the situation he's created, which is very important to know before we dismiss his whole character as ruined or incapable of empathy. As if we all haven't said things we instantly regretted.
Yes, it was stupid. People do stupid things. Even smart people do stupid things. Good writers write people doing stupid things. SI Paul has done many stupid things before, especially related to social interaction. This is realistic and in character. And so far, well written.
Also worth pointing out, it's not over. We haven't seen how SI Paul responds to the situation he's created, which is very important to know before we dismiss his whole character as ruined or incapable of empathy. As if we all haven't said things we instantly regretted.
spencer1519
(Verified Heretic)
- Location
- Oregon, USA
I don't see any particular issue with the SI's characterization as written this last chapter. Everyone has blind spots in their personality, and romance happens to be a glaring one for Paul. Paul has a very particular set of desires and opinions on what a courtship should look like, and those expectations lead him to certain patterns of behavior. Paul's density here reminds me of one of my own blind spots, which for me isn't romance, but making new friends in general. I literally cannot acquire new friends on my own initiative. I do not escalate relationships from acquaintance to friend on my own. I have virtually no understanding of which situations one is allowed to escalate in the social contract because I never learned those skills. Paul doesn't understand how to romance, and thus tends to blunder through it. It's a learning experience. It's pretty clear to me that Paul doesn't have the slightest idea how to pursue a real relationship, and from that his actions appear totally understandable to me. He's going to screw up, a lot, before he gets it right. That's just how it works.
RichardWhereat
Feanor did nothing wrong.
- Location
- Australia
I do absolutely agree here. It's why my comments on the topic were castigating Paul, not Zoat. Paul did what we've all done every now and then, and accidentally hurt someone while trying to help them with "constructive criticism". Right now, Paul's an absolute shit, and he's made a puppy cry. He probably doesn't understand what he just did, but that doesn't mean he didn't do it.
Heh, and he's an idiot. He's always going to hurt people, because people get hurt from their own emotional connection to things* as much as (or more) than peoples actions towards them. It's why it's emotionally safer to explore your sexuality with someone you aren't in love with and who isn't in love with you. That said, that's one of those things you only really understand after years of being sexually active, because you've got the experience of having this shit blow up in your face. Not everyone you're in love with is going to have the same sexual desires you do, or be sexually compatible, even if you try to make it work. However, it's intoxicating as fuck having sex with someone who's in love with you, and that is the culturally accepted way to go about it.
*It's part of that "I'm offended" bullshit. You can't give insult, a person can only take the insult. You can try to insult someone, but if they're not in a space where they consider your words to have any value, they're not going to be insulted. They'll just feel pity or contempt. Maybe anger that you tried to insult them.
I am holding out hope for my ship still.
- Location
- australia
>.> guys, in the words of Yu Narukami, CALM DOWN. XD
ill note that my cringe wasn't a response to it being unrealistic, but a more typical "smooth moves, Romeo" response considering he's literally capable of seeing emotions >.>
to be fair, the "swing and miss" can be partly excused due to, unlike a fair number of people he regularly deals with, Paul DOESN'T have an established baseline for Dr Quinzel's personality/traits, simply because she's never suffered the Mental breakdown the majority of her alternates did that essentially DEFINED their Charicter (YET), and to be fair, if i spent a good chunk of a year having foreknowledge of many of the things that make EVERYONE around me tick with near perfict reliability, im pretty sure id be more likely than normal to swallow my foot when im falling back on normal social skills again and attempt to breach a somewhat sensitive subject...
ill note that my cringe wasn't a response to it being unrealistic, but a more typical "smooth moves, Romeo" response considering he's literally capable of seeing emotions >.>
to be fair, the "swing and miss" can be partly excused due to, unlike a fair number of people he regularly deals with, Paul DOESN'T have an established baseline for Dr Quinzel's personality/traits, simply because she's never suffered the Mental breakdown the majority of her alternates did that essentially DEFINED their Charicter (YET), and to be fair, if i spent a good chunk of a year having foreknowledge of many of the things that make EVERYONE around me tick with near perfict reliability, im pretty sure id be more likely than normal to swallow my foot when im falling back on normal social skills again and attempt to breach a somewhat sensitive subject...
- Location
- Somewhere out there
Except you have to remember that he's put an intentional point on NOT paying a lot of attention to that, due to a desire to respect the sanctity of others' thoughts. He probably CAN'T turn off what's left (at least not without the ring hacking his consciousness) but that part is only telling him the broad strokes, not the appropriate way to respond to them. And then you have to assume that he's paying close attention to every little change in someone's emotional state WHILE he's in the middle of talking... except that directly contradicts the earlier statement that he's consciously trying to AVOID doing exactly that.
Nah, I wasn't directing that specific part at you. I was quoting you because it was a good jumping-off point for discussion, and the emphasis was with regards to anyone who DOES think that way. Apologies if it seemed I was accusing you.
Okay, look. I'm going to head off that asterisk right now and say that I DO take offense to that.
People get hurt from their emotional connections to things, yes. That's something of a tautology, because getting hurt is ITSELF an emotional reaction, which can only HAPPEN through an emotional connection. But to say that Paul is an IDIOT for TAKING SOMEONE AT HER WORD is going WAY too far.
It's one thing to call him dense. That's defensible. But to say that Paul is not just imperceptive but ACTIVELY FOOLISH is to brand as such anyone else who doesn't have the social graces of a charismatic fictional character and occasionally makes a less-than-perfect conversational choice.
Seriously, watch where you're pointing those words; they're loaded.
Empiricist2
Let's play doctor!
- Location
- Baton Rouge
You posted this:
Part of the story I quoted was this:
I fail to see how it's not relevant.
RichardWhereat
Feanor did nothing wrong.
- Location
- Australia
Learn not to?
**Scrolls back up**
**Rereads**
Nope, didn't say that. I said he's an idiot, I didn't qualify why or how. In fact, at that time I was not actually referring to him taking her at her word. That said, there's a massive difference between taking her at her word to be blunt, and deciding to come out with what he did. That is actually stupid. You're only that blunt with best mates because they know you well enough to know where you're coming from. A girl you've seen only a few times? No. You do that and you risk the entire relationship. He was foolish in the extreme to cross that line without having an existing relationship strong enough to bear it.
Nope. It's not about the Cha stat, it's about the Wis stat.
Mate, try not to look so hard for offence in things. It comes off as Tumblrish, and it's just plain silly.
Words aren't a gun, they're a means of communication. Calm down.
Escalation (supplementary, SI option)
- Location
- Hampden Park
15th May
10:42 GMT -6
"Harleen, I'm very sorry-" She changes direction again, and I keep pace with her. "-but I feel that it's import-" Another jink, another change in direction. "-ant to be open and honest about-."
She stops suddenly, twisting round in the air and throwing her arms up. "Not always! God!" She's breathing hard as she stares at me. "I must have tha worst taste!"
"Okay, no-."
"I'm not lookin' for a Strange replacement! I thawt that maybe a superhero could be a guy I could trust not t' do any a' the manipulative bullshit he did!"
I was intentionally not using-! "I'm not.. trying to be manipulative? I mean, I'm pretty sure that I've never lied to you-" And -let's be honest here- the number of people I've not lied to is pretty small. "-or tried to persuade you to do anything for my benefit-."
"Then what tha hell was that whole 'flicka of love' stuff?"
"Ah." I nod. "May I show you?" She eyes me suspiciously for a moment, then grudgingly nods. "Try to hold still." I send a filament through the air to her, touching it to her neck and interfacing it with her nervous system. Visual cortex… There we are. Swamp Thing might do this by altering Missus Holland's soul, but.. I.. don't think that's a good idea for me. Simple enough to share what I can see.
Harleen exhales suddenly as her visual field is replaced by mine.
"This is how I see the world. See you. And this is… The lowest intensity. See the colours beneath the surface…"
"Indigo and red. What's that mean?"
"Compassion and anger. Indigo is your strongest colour. Usually. I can.. see how annoyed you are by my behaviour."
"Then why'd ya do it? If ya know how it makes me feel, why don't cha just… Not?"
"Like this I only see the colours that bubble to the surface. If I wanted to predict how… People were going to behave whenever I did something I'd have to look-" I hold up my right hand and drop it forwards. Within my visual arc so that she can see me doing it. "-deeper. And I don't like doing that unless I've got a good mission-related reason to do so."
"Deeper. I wanna see deeper. I wanna see what's so obvious t' you."
"You said you were sure that you wanted me to be blunt."
"Show me."
"Alright. Not sure this will come across properly." And I look… Under..? I don't know the words to describe it properly. If they even exist in English. Should probably talk to M'gann and find out how Martians talk about it. Though… I suppose they usually only talk about it with other Martians…
Under the red are threads of different colours leading off towards various other experiences. Standing in Belle Reve as she starts to believe that Strange was responsible, standing behind the door, listening as that woman takes me away because she's not important enough and more vaguely, wisp-images of why why why? And Strange smiling fondly and someone else I don't recognise and her useless lump of a brother-.
"Stop. Look… Look somewhere else."
I see the two of us walking along the streets of Gotham heading towards the wedding and me talking to her after we broke her out of the psychiatrist's office during the second break out attempt and us having dinner in that restaurant in New York and then she's having dinner with Strange-.
"I jus' wan'ed one relationship with a guy that wasn't a total mess." Her eyes stare at nothing as she starts crying again. "Was that too much t' ask?" I disconnect, floating closer as she blinks and focuses her attention back on me. "Was it?"
I… Um. I float right up to her and hug her, my arms going up her back and my hands on her shoulders. Her head rests on my right shoulder, leaning into my head. "No. No it isn't. But… You're looking for any sort of stability. Not for a loving partnership. And that is… Actually… What I want, ultimately. And… In your case… I don't… You know that your relationships with men have generally been unhealthy. I don't think another dominant man is really the solution you need."
"Oh yeah? What do I need?"
"A friend? One you don't need to sleep with or slave away loyally for in order for your life to keep making sense." I shrug. "Today was just supposed to be pointless fun. I wasn't really…"
"We're jus'… Gowin out flyin'… Fer fun."
"Yeah, I… I've been flying with most of my friends… You seemed to like the idea…"
"An' tha weddin'… You didn't even think that was a date, did you?"
"It had a certain date-like quality. But most of the people I might have invited have secret identities and.. so.. can't be seen with me in certain circumstances."
She pulls back slightly. "You shuwer you ain't jus' afraid of commitment?"
"Yes, completely. I have total awareness of my desires. I have no fear of commitment at all."
"Youwa bein' literal, ain't you?" She snorts as her nose starts to run-. I raise my right forefinger, a wave of orange cleaning off her face. "Oh. Thanks."
"Are.. you.. feeling..?" I don't really know to carry that sentence on.
"I dunno. Given my track rec'rd, maybe friends is bettah." She sighs. "So what yeh sayin' is, I need t'be comfortable bein' me befowah you'd even consider havin' a romantic relationship with me."
"No, it's more than that. Last time I was in this position-" I share my own recollection of Holly's inner self at the time-.
"Wait, two girls? Seriously?"
"The-. The point I was making is that… See that violet? Right. That's.. my guide to 'this relationship is a healthy one'. A genuine commitment of… At least one person to another. You've got.. blue and orange, hope and avarice, but that… Looks like it's because you want the world to work a particular way, the idea that that way is right."
"An' whats youwa violet light look like?"
"No idea. I don't know of any other Lanterns who can do what I can, and I've got.. other things that would make looking at me difficult. And just in case you're wondering, no, looking in a mirror doesn't work."
She nods, looking down at the forest below us. "I ain't sayin' youwa right and I ain't sayin' youwa wrong. An', yeyeah, I was more lookin' forward t' the idea of you bein' there in the mornin' than…" She trails off. "Huh. So, youwa turnin' me down 'cause you don't want me… What, bein' dependent?"
"You could put it like that."
She nods. "Sounds like somethin' I should be grateful aboud. But I'm mostly just annoyed." She sighs. "I wasn't expectin' a therapy session either."
"I… Really should have… Come up with a better way to put that."
She folds her arms across her chest. "So. What'd we do now?"
"Well, you appeared to get the hang of high speed flying back there. Why not keep going?"
"I… Dunno…"
"Come on. It's fun. And perhaps most importantly, you're completely under your own control up here." I tilt my head slightly to the left. "Huh?"
"Ahhhh…" She nods, the slightest hint of a smile appearing for the first time since I dropped my little bomb. "Fine. Race yah t' the trees?"
10:42 GMT -6
"Harleen, I'm very sorry-" She changes direction again, and I keep pace with her. "-but I feel that it's import-" Another jink, another change in direction. "-ant to be open and honest about-."
She stops suddenly, twisting round in the air and throwing her arms up. "Not always! God!" She's breathing hard as she stares at me. "I must have tha worst taste!"
"Okay, no-."
"I'm not lookin' for a Strange replacement! I thawt that maybe a superhero could be a guy I could trust not t' do any a' the manipulative bullshit he did!"
I was intentionally not using-! "I'm not.. trying to be manipulative? I mean, I'm pretty sure that I've never lied to you-" And -let's be honest here- the number of people I've not lied to is pretty small. "-or tried to persuade you to do anything for my benefit-."
"Then what tha hell was that whole 'flicka of love' stuff?"
"Ah." I nod. "May I show you?" She eyes me suspiciously for a moment, then grudgingly nods. "Try to hold still." I send a filament through the air to her, touching it to her neck and interfacing it with her nervous system. Visual cortex… There we are. Swamp Thing might do this by altering Missus Holland's soul, but.. I.. don't think that's a good idea for me. Simple enough to share what I can see.
Harleen exhales suddenly as her visual field is replaced by mine.
"This is how I see the world. See you. And this is… The lowest intensity. See the colours beneath the surface…"
"Indigo and red. What's that mean?"
"Compassion and anger. Indigo is your strongest colour. Usually. I can.. see how annoyed you are by my behaviour."
"Then why'd ya do it? If ya know how it makes me feel, why don't cha just… Not?"
"Like this I only see the colours that bubble to the surface. If I wanted to predict how… People were going to behave whenever I did something I'd have to look-" I hold up my right hand and drop it forwards. Within my visual arc so that she can see me doing it. "-deeper. And I don't like doing that unless I've got a good mission-related reason to do so."
"Deeper. I wanna see deeper. I wanna see what's so obvious t' you."
"You said you were sure that you wanted me to be blunt."
"Show me."
"Alright. Not sure this will come across properly." And I look… Under..? I don't know the words to describe it properly. If they even exist in English. Should probably talk to M'gann and find out how Martians talk about it. Though… I suppose they usually only talk about it with other Martians…
Under the red are threads of different colours leading off towards various other experiences. Standing in Belle Reve as she starts to believe that Strange was responsible, standing behind the door, listening as that woman takes me away because she's not important enough and more vaguely, wisp-images of why why why? And Strange smiling fondly and someone else I don't recognise and her useless lump of a brother-.
"Stop. Look… Look somewhere else."
I see the two of us walking along the streets of Gotham heading towards the wedding and me talking to her after we broke her out of the psychiatrist's office during the second break out attempt and us having dinner in that restaurant in New York and then she's having dinner with Strange-.
"I jus' wan'ed one relationship with a guy that wasn't a total mess." Her eyes stare at nothing as she starts crying again. "Was that too much t' ask?" I disconnect, floating closer as she blinks and focuses her attention back on me. "Was it?"
I… Um. I float right up to her and hug her, my arms going up her back and my hands on her shoulders. Her head rests on my right shoulder, leaning into my head. "No. No it isn't. But… You're looking for any sort of stability. Not for a loving partnership. And that is… Actually… What I want, ultimately. And… In your case… I don't… You know that your relationships with men have generally been unhealthy. I don't think another dominant man is really the solution you need."
"Oh yeah? What do I need?"
"A friend? One you don't need to sleep with or slave away loyally for in order for your life to keep making sense." I shrug. "Today was just supposed to be pointless fun. I wasn't really…"
"We're jus'… Gowin out flyin'… Fer fun."
"Yeah, I… I've been flying with most of my friends… You seemed to like the idea…"
"An' tha weddin'… You didn't even think that was a date, did you?"
"It had a certain date-like quality. But most of the people I might have invited have secret identities and.. so.. can't be seen with me in certain circumstances."
She pulls back slightly. "You shuwer you ain't jus' afraid of commitment?"
"Yes, completely. I have total awareness of my desires. I have no fear of commitment at all."
"Youwa bein' literal, ain't you?" She snorts as her nose starts to run-. I raise my right forefinger, a wave of orange cleaning off her face. "Oh. Thanks."
"Are.. you.. feeling..?" I don't really know to carry that sentence on.
"I dunno. Given my track rec'rd, maybe friends is bettah." She sighs. "So what yeh sayin' is, I need t'be comfortable bein' me befowah you'd even consider havin' a romantic relationship with me."
"No, it's more than that. Last time I was in this position-" I share my own recollection of Holly's inner self at the time-.
"Wait, two girls? Seriously?"
"The-. The point I was making is that… See that violet? Right. That's.. my guide to 'this relationship is a healthy one'. A genuine commitment of… At least one person to another. You've got.. blue and orange, hope and avarice, but that… Looks like it's because you want the world to work a particular way, the idea that that way is right."
"An' whats youwa violet light look like?"
"No idea. I don't know of any other Lanterns who can do what I can, and I've got.. other things that would make looking at me difficult. And just in case you're wondering, no, looking in a mirror doesn't work."
She nods, looking down at the forest below us. "I ain't sayin' youwa right and I ain't sayin' youwa wrong. An', yeyeah, I was more lookin' forward t' the idea of you bein' there in the mornin' than…" She trails off. "Huh. So, youwa turnin' me down 'cause you don't want me… What, bein' dependent?"
"You could put it like that."
She nods. "Sounds like somethin' I should be grateful aboud. But I'm mostly just annoyed." She sighs. "I wasn't expectin' a therapy session either."
"I… Really should have… Come up with a better way to put that."
She folds her arms across her chest. "So. What'd we do now?"
"Well, you appeared to get the hang of high speed flying back there. Why not keep going?"
"I… Dunno…"
"Come on. It's fun. And perhaps most importantly, you're completely under your own control up here." I tilt my head slightly to the left. "Huh?"
"Ahhhh…" She nods, the slightest hint of a smile appearing for the first time since I dropped my little bomb. "Fine. Race yah t' the trees?"
Last edited:
- Location
- Philippines
Faith in Paul regained, though I'm still kind of annoyed at the bastard. Buy her a large bucket of ice-cream and a dinner and I'll be fine.
(And platonic shipping is niiiiice too. As long as they're happy.
)
(And platonic shipping is niiiiice too. As long as they're happy.
)- Status