How? People keep suggesting we hit Styrmyr hard or going on the offensive against them, but they don't address our lack of options to do that when they do so. If we get can option to renew the offensive against Styrmyr, I will consider it based on its merits, but until then, you need to ask the QM about having that option.

@Aranfan can we renew the campaign against Styrmyr?
Because they are attacking us and the peace talks seem to lead nowhere.

The problem is that our revanchists won't let us give up any land that we conquer from Styrmyr. If we conquer more land, we will have to keep it and the thread voted against doing that.
@Aranfan is this correct?
Because in the trait description the revanchists only want old borders, and Styrmyr are not part of the old borders.
Humiliation and reparations, on the other hand, should be their cup of tea.
 
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@Aranfan can we renew the campaign against Styrmyr?
Because they are attacking us and the peace talks seem to lead nowhere.


@Aranfan is this correct?
Because in the trait description the revanchists only want old borders, and Styrmyr are not part of the old borders.
Humiliation and reparations, on the other hand, should be their cup of tea.

You're assuming that the revanchists don't have changing goal posts. They tried to make us keep the land from Tinshore last time.
 
@Aranfan is this correct?
Because in the trait description the revanchists only want old borders, and Styrmyr are not part of the old borders.
Humiliation and reparations, on the other hand, should be their cup of tea.
The revanchists are unreasonable individuals who are quite happy to change the goalposts and take very liberal interpretations of their stated goals when it comes to getting more clay and prestige. It is one of the main reasons we voted to stay on the offensive so we could weaken them and avoid conquering actual Styrmyr territory in addition to reclaiming Greenshore.
 
But we could, and have, given it back.
So the possibility to attack Styrmyr and get peace and money out of it should exist.

No, it does not. It was brought up at the time and shot down by the QM.
I think I'm willing to gamble on marching to the mountains to shut down Styrmyr resistance, *and then releasing that land* once peace is won.
No. That might be something that happens in the other scenario, but if you tell Dafydd to conquer to the mountains, he will conquer. You will have comitted to keeping that land.
 
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But we are "in the other scenario" now. So it should be possible?
Your suggestion is to change the scenario from staying on the defensive to going on the offensive so I don't see how it would be possible. If we take land while on the defensive, we don't have to keep it, but if we take land on the offensive, we have to keep it.
Sorry for bothering you again, @Aranfan, but clarifications about options dealing with the Styrmyr seem necessary, since just trying for peace is clearly not working.
I disagree that the option for peace isn't working. We have just been getting low rolls when we take that action. That is no reason why it should stop working and bad rolls will be a concern with whatever action we chose unless it is guaranteed to pass.
 
We don't order Daffyd to conquer, we order him to force our terms upon them by killing people and breaking stuff of high value until they submit. No question of giving land back if we don't hold anything. Kill or drive off the soldiers, empty the granaries and slight the fortifications then keep moving. If he can't tell the difference then we get a new war leader - but we know he can because we conducted offensive operations into Hellas without being forced to hold onto territory there.

The Revaunchists and everyone else should be far more het up about Western Wall than Styrmyr. I'm surprised that there isn't a condition forcing us to move against them this round.
 
[X] Plan Oshha
-[X] Influence: Peace Talks, Styrmyr: You have achieved your war goals, attempt to negotiate peace with the styrmyr. (Narrative%. 1 Year. Peace.)
-[X] Influence: Construct Warships, Harmurri Gulf: Do you really need warships on the Monsoon Sea? The trade there is quite civilized with much less piracy than on the Saffron Sea. (70%. 2 years. +Warships. Expensive)
-[X] Influence: Construct Warships, Redshore: With unified control of the Yllython shattered, there are going to be pirates and rebels in the sea closest to the core. The people need to build warships to suppress pirates and fight enemies. (70%. 2 years. +Warships. Expensive)
-[X] Influence: Construct Warships, New Blackmouth: The shipyards of New Blackmouth are once more ready and operational. (70%. 2 years. +Warships. Expensive)
-[X] Influence: Sell Bombards, Behryvar: Does Behryvar want bombards? (75%. 1 Year. Profitable.)
-[X] Personal: Relax with Family (-Stress)

This is my plan to continue preparing for the big war that will begin in the next year or two. Continuing the peace talks for a chance to peace out with favourable terms while Dafydd wants warships so the Dragon General is going to get warships. More seriously, we need a lot more warships and right now, the concern is getting them built in time rather and we got the money to afford building all of them right now. The last action does go helping with our finances by hopefully getting us another point of Treasury without upsetting anyone. The personal action goes to reducing the stress of our king.

This plan will leave us with 2-4 Influence next turn and take us down to either 4.5/10 or 5.5/10 Treasury, but we can afford both of those things right now. What we cannot afford right now is to not get starting on building up warships. If we want to have them available for when the war starts, we need to begin constructing them this year and even then, it isn't a sure thing depending on how the dice rolls go.
 
but we know he can because we conducted offensive operations into Hellas without being forced to hold onto territory there.

For the record, we did take land in the war against Hellas. Now we just didn't have an option to hold it, but we did take over Hellas territory in that war. Meanwhile with Styrmyr, we are being told if we conquer more land, we are committing to keeping it. I'm not sure what the difference is, but I don't consider this to be a good comparison because for whatever reason, the situations and their consequences are clearly different. What happened then might not be possible now.

Basically because something applied in the last war against Hellas doesn't make it applicable to the current war with Styrmyr. Why that is, I don't know and you'll have to ask the QM.
 
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[X] Plan Oshha

We don't order Daffyd to conquer, we order him to force our terms upon them by killing people and breaking stuff of high value until they submit. No question of giving land back if we don't hold anything. Kill or drive off the soldiers, empty the granaries and slight the fortifications then keep moving. If he can't tell the difference then we get a new war leader - but we know he can because we conducted offensive operations into Hellas without being forced to hold onto territory there.

The Revaunchists and everyone else should be far more het up about Western Wall than Styrmyr. I'm surprised that there isn't a condition forcing us to move against them this round.

It's getting obnoxious that people keep repeating the same argument ad nauseam when clearly this wasn't going to be allowed for whatever reason.
 
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>giving up clay
>revanchists: REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111111111111111!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
To some people that are still not understanding. Every land that has once been under Ymarin, not the OYE, but under any people that were/was part of the Ymarin is land that belongs to us in head of the revanchist.

The Styrmir are considered rebel Ymarin since ancient times, so even if their land was never under the OYE, it's still Ymarin land, so if we conquer it,. it's OURS to keep.
 
>giving up clay
>revanchists: REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111111111111111!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That's not the question though. The question is: is anywhere our soldiers ever step, even with explicitly other purposes in mind, then our clay that the revanchists will rebel rather than give it up? Does this prevent our Banner Companies being hired abroad because we have to claim their winter quarters in perpetuity? How about bodyguards to our ambassadors - does everyone we've tried to sell guns to owe us their capitals?

Then here's what we do: Bring a banner company back to the core territories then launch our non-conquest war anyway. Publicise that we have no intention of holding Styrmyr, mock anyone who says otherwise. Then, when the morons act up, crush them, crucify the plotters and fighters, and half-exile their families. The charges are rebellion and, giving aid and comfort to Western Wall and the Black Sheep by attempting to divert forces from genuine reconquest.
 
That's not the question though. The question is: is anywhere our soldiers ever step, even with explicitly other purposes in mind, then our clay that the revanchists will rebel rather than give it up? Does this prevent our Banner Companies being hired abroad because we have to claim their winter quarters in perpetuity? How about bodyguards to our ambassadors - does everyone we've tried to sell guns to owe us their capitals?

The question is if we can go on the offensive in Styrmyr without having to keep any more land that we take. The answer is that no, we cannot do that thanks to ongoing revanchism temper tantrum that the Ymaryn have. Trying to come up with extreme examples where the answer isn't the same is disingenuous. The question isn't about any land that our people have stepped foot on, it is any land we have conquered in an explicit offensive war to conquest land.

Of course the answer is going to be different for hired out mercenaries and diplomats to foreign lands. That is because they are entirely different sets of circumstances to a conquering army engaged in an offensive war of conquest.

Then here's what we do: Bring a banner company back to the core territories then launch our non-conquest war anyway. Publicise that we have no intention of holding Styrmyr, mock anyone who says otherwise. Then, when the morons act up, crush them, crucify the plotters and fighters, and half-exile their families. The charges are rebellion and, giving aid and comfort to Western Wall and the Black Sheep by attempting to divert forces from genuine reconquest.

You clearly don't understand how widespread revanchism is in Ymaryn society. The majority of our populace supports revanchism thanks to our choices in the Collapse and the issue with the revanchists isn't a minority of our people, but the most extreme and influential revanchists wiping up support from the moderate revanchists that make up the majority of the Ymaryn people and getting popular support for their goals. Furthermore, our military isn't some anti-revanchist force and I bet we got plenty of revanchists in our army to the point that I wouldn't be surprised that the majority of our military are moderate revanchists. We couldn't trust any military force to not side with the revanchists against us, either partially or in full.

Revanchism isn't some extremist minority in Ymaryn society, it is entrenched throughout the Ymaryn populace, the Ymaryn government and the Ymaryn military. The most extreme and influential revanchists don't need to revolt, they just need to make enough loud noises about how the king and his supporters aren't doing enough to restore the mighty Ymaryn Empire or worse, how they want to give up rightful Ymaryn land to those foreigners. It doesn't have to be entirely true, it just has to be true enough and persuasive enough that they convince enough people to buy it that it causes us problems.
 
We don't order Daffyd to conquer, we order him to force our terms upon them by killing people and breaking stuff of high value until they submit. No question of giving land back if we don't hold anything. Kill or drive off the soldiers, empty the granaries and slight the fortifications then keep moving. If he can't tell the difference then we get a new war leader - but we know he can because we conducted offensive operations into Hellas without being forced to hold onto territory there.

The Revaunchists and everyone else should be far more het up about Western Wall than Styrmyr. I'm surprised that there isn't a condition forcing us to move against them this round.

The problem with this clever idea is that we can't credibly give that order.

Because, in public, we've already set our wargoals when we started the war, and the war was one to conquer territory. The war in Hellas was never a war that focused on territorial conquest, so there the problem does not exist.

What you plan to order is to take :
1) An army raised to capture territory
2) Have it execute all the actions necessary to capture territory (after all, if fortifications are down and soldiers destroyed, the enemy is helpless and easy to capture)
3) Stay there for a prolonged time after we've de facto seized control of the territory (sieging/sleighing fortifications take a while)

and then try to pretend that we haven't just captured the territory, we were just visiting.
 
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The question is if we can go on the offensive in Styrmyr without having to keep any more land that we take. The answer is that no, we cannot do that thanks to ongoing revanchism temper tantrum that the Ymaryn have. Trying to come up with extreme examples where the answer isn't the same is disingenuous. The question isn't about any land that our people have stepped foot on, it is any land we have conquered in an explicit offensive war to conquest land.

Of course the answer is going to be different for hired out mercenaries and diplomats to foreign lands. That is because they are entirely different sets of circumstances to a conquering army engaged in an offensive war of conquest.
Styrmyr is not Greenshore! We launched a war of conquest on Greenshore, took Greenshore, stopped and offered Styrmyr a treaty. They had big, friendly dinners with our King, smiled a lot, then tried to invade Greenshore again. I want to launch a new, non conquest, campaign to make them stop. I believe this has a better chance of success than continuing to ask nicely of people who clearly aren't willing to deal year after year while our army is tied up defending Greenshore delaying our revanchist agenda. The people involved may be much the same but it's two different campaigns, distinct in time, place, aims and method.
You clearly don't understand how widespread revanchism is in Ymaryn society. The majority of our populace supports revanchism thanks to our choices in the Collapse and the issue with the revanchists isn't a minority of our people, but the most extreme and influential revanchists wiping up support from the moderate revanchists that make up the majority of the Ymaryn people and getting popular support for their goals. Furthermore, our military isn't some anti-revanchist force and I bet we got plenty of revanchists in our army to the point that I wouldn't be surprised that the majority of our military are moderate revanchists. We couldn't trust any military force to not side with the revanchists against us, either partially or in full.

Revanchism isn't some extremist minority in Ymaryn society, it is entrenched throughout the Ymaryn populace, the Ymaryn government and the Ymaryn military. The most extreme and influential revanchists don't need to revolt, they just need to make enough loud noises about how the king and his supporters aren't doing enough to restore the mighty Ymaryn Empire or worse, how they want to give up rightful Ymaryn land to those foreigners. It doesn't have to be entirely true, it just has to be true enough and persuasive enough that they convince enough people to buy it that it causes us problems.
Revanchism as in a determination to retake our pre-khan territories is nigh universal and includes Balthazar. People who are prepared to bring that agenda to a screaming halt in order to opportunistically undo a decision made 500 years ago are an extremist minority. Western Wall tried to assassinate Balthazar and did kill the Heir, they are rebels who aided the Khan, and we need to secure the west flank in order to promptly and effectively attack them. Someone so insistent on turning that action into an imperialist adventure that they will harm the machineries of the state (i.e. cause a game mechanical effect) is sabotaging both revanchism and our response to attempted regicide. If Balthazar doesn't deal with them in the manner of a medieval king then he won't stay a medieval king.
 
Styrmyr is not Greenshore! We launched a war of conquest on Greenshore, took Greenshore, stopped and offered Styrmyr a treaty. They had big, friendly dinners with our King, smiled a lot, then tried to invade Greenshore again. I want to launch a new, non conquest, campaign to make them stop. I believe this has a better chance of success than continuing to ask nicely of people who clearly aren't willing to deal year after year while our army is tied up defending Greenshore delaying our revanchist agenda. The people involved may be much the same but it's two different campaigns, distinct in time, place, aims and method.
This is wrong. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you just forgot how things actually happened, we invaded Styrmyr because at the time, Greenshore had stopped existing as an independent polity due to Styrmyr conquering their land.

Here are the actions we took that resulted in the current war with Styrmyr. First the attempt at diplomacy where they threw the feast and had polite talk.
Diplomatic Contact, Styrmyr
Personal Stewards of Nature, Styrmyr
Needed: 6+. Rolled: 95+5=100. Crit Success, bonus to PSN roll.
Needed: 11+. Roll: 1d10 → 6+1=7. Failure

The Styrmyr lay out a lavish feast for Melek Balthazar. The talks last almost a month, but Balthazar leaves without Greenshore. It will need to be taken by force. Once Balthazar is back in Valleyhome he draws up a formal declaration of war with the stated aims of regaining Greenshore Province.
Then the next turn we invaded Styrmyr. Specifically Styrmyr because Greenshore had ceased to exist as a polity at that point.
City Levy, targeting Styrmyr
War Mission, targeting Styrmyr
Needed: Irrelevant, Authority
Needed: 5+. Rolled 26. Success.

This is a war of aggression by the Ymaryn. The Styrmyr have launched counterattacks to retake the land we conquered from them, but they have not invaded us once. While the Ymaryn like to talk about how Greenshore is rightfully their land and not Styrmyr's, it is land that belonged to Styrmyr before the war, a war that is still ongoing with no stop to it so far, and we are occupying. Styrmyr has taken no offensive action against us aside from trying to drive out the Ymaryn forces occupying their land.

In this war, we are the aggressors. We are the conquerors. Styrmyr has not done anything wrong and all they've done is fight back against foreign conquerors who have invaded and occupied their land.
Revanchism as in a determination to retake our pre-khan territories is nigh universal and includes Balthazar. People who are prepared to bring that agenda to a screaming halt in order to opportunistically undo a decision made 500 years ago are an extremist minority. Western Wall tried to assassinate Balthazar and did kill the Heir, they are rebels who aided the Khan, and we need to secure the west flank in order to promptly and effectively attack them. Someone so insistent on turning that action into an imperialist adventure that they will harm the machineries of the state (i.e. cause a game mechanical effect) is sabotaging both revanchism and our response to attempted regicide. If Balthazar doesn't deal with them in the manner of a medieval king then he won't stay a medieval king.

Just saying it works that way doesn't mean that in-universe characters will see it that way like you do. See the recent assassination attempt as even blaming the revanchists for that wouldn't have let us get rid of them.

Saying that the revanchists are sabotaging the war effort doesn't work when the people of the Ymaryn won't see it that way. It could just as easily be viewed as the king failing to properly punish Western Wall for their affronts and then harming the war effort by wasting resources on wrongly punishing noble Ymaryn patriots who just wanted to get the king to properly deal with those dastardly rebels in the north. Or perhaps it would be viewed as these honourable Ymaryn patriots who just have good intentions and just want to ensure the king isn't shying away from inflicting justice on those traitorous rebels, only for the king to be a tyrant who wrongly punishes them to the point of diverting resources from the war effort to do those. Heck, they might even just say that we deliberately provoked the revanchists to get them to rebel instead of focusing on the war effort and they would be right because that is what you are suggesting.

The majority of the Ymaryn don't see the revanchists or revanchists as bad things. In fact, they have popular support amongst the populace. That is why we spent every turn since we stabilised after the Collapse making sure that they were appeased. The QM has repeatedly stated that we aren't just getting rid of revanchism until we retake all of the Ymaryn traditional provinces (Amber Road counts as a distant trade outpost, not a province). There is no quick or easy way to get rid of revanchists. The QM has deliberately set things up so the most painless and swiftest way is to give them what they want by going about restoring the old borders of the Ymaryn Empire.
You voted for the tantrum spiral. And one needs only look at history to see that people can have revanchist claims on land they haven't had for thousands of years. Hell, on land they never had but someone else who lived in the same area long ago did.

Slaying Revanchism will not be easy, nor will it be painless.
 
Revanchists are not rational peeps. These are the ones who went insane when 9/11 happened. They want to conquer the Styrmyr so the Styrmyr can NEVER TAKE YMARYN CLAY AGAIN REE! If you take land, they aren't going to let you give it up. Especially not after Tinshore caught them off guard.

And also the Melkut Ymaryn are technically the aggressors here by the view of most of the other powers in the setting.
 
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