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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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I think the gap here is one side is thinking in terms of per adventure/per attempt risks, which is low, in a given campaign you are unlikely to roll instant death...while its distinctly different in a LIFETIME consideration, since we're playing on a per 6 month basis.

Even being careful, Mathilde probably faces at least one minor mishap every turn.
 
@veekie I know your plan is winning so you don't have any cause to agree with but please change the selling info option to literaly any other organisational option? Pretty please?
Adhoc vote count started by Lupercal on Feb 17, 2018 at 1:16 PM, finished with 164 posts and 46 votes.
  • [X] Plan The Front Don't Need Us Yet
    -[X][Intel] Information Broker: Start selling tidbits of information, just enough for your information network to start paying for itself.
    -[X][Personal] Seek out a new leader for the Watch.
    -[X][Personal] Scribe: Altdorf's scribe did not get on well with the Prince. He's going to be rather busy with burning things, but maybe that'll put him in a better mood if you offer your own services. (NEW-ish)
    --[X] Ranald's Blessing(if available)
    [X] Plan Bound Spells
    -[X] Information Broker: Start selling tidbits of information, just enough for your information network to start paying for itself.
    -[X] Seek out a new leader for the Watch.
    --[X] Ranald's Blessing
    -[X] Bound Spells: Though the corrosive Dhar made them high-maintenance, the design of the bound spells in the castle's infiltrators has fascinating possibilities. The memories had faded but you've managed to refresh them. Try to adapt it for use with Ulgu. (NEW-ish)
    [X] Plan No Offloading
    -[X][Intel] Information Broker: Start selling tidbits of information, just enough for your information network to start paying for itself.
    -[X][Personal] Seek out a new leader for the Watch.
    -[X][Personal] Scribe: Altdorf's scribe did not get on well with the Prince. He's going to be rather busy with burning things, but maybe that'll put him in a better mood if you offer your own services. (NEW-ish)
    --[X] Ranald's Blessing(if available)
    [X] Plan Help, I've Locked Myself In Van Hal's Study
    -[X][Intel] Attaché Paperwork: The Intelligence Attachés are your biggest expense by far - see if you can have them paid for by the Army of Stirland instead.
    -[X][Personal] Undead Research: You know the basics, now. Perhaps a great deal of effort will allow you to advance further.
    -[X][Personal] Snooping: Van Hal gave you a key to his Study. He didn't specifically say not to poke around and see what you could find.
    [X] Plan The Front Don't Need Us Yet edit
    -[X][Intel] Information Broker: Start selling tidbits of information, just enough for your information network to start paying for itself.
    -[X][Personal] Seek out a new leader for the Watch.
    --[X] Ranald's Blessing(if available)
    -[X][Personal] Scribe: Altdorf's scribe did not get on well with the Prince. He's going to be rather busy with burning things, but maybe that'll put him in a better mood if you offer your own services. (NEW-ish)
    [X] Plan let's not sell our country's secrets for cash
    -[X][Personal] Seek out a new leader for the Watch.
    -[X][Personal] Scribe: Altdorf's scribe did not get on well with the Prince. He's going to be rather busy with burning things, but maybe that'll put him in a better mood if you offer your own services. (NEW-ish)
    --[X] Ranald's Blessing(if available)
    -[X] Bound Spells: Though the corrosive Dhar made them high-maintenance, the design of the bound spells in the castle's infiltrators has fascinating possibilities. The memories had faded but you've managed to refresh them. Try to adapt it for use with Ulgu. (NEW-ish)
    [X] Plan How To Spell Wizard
    -[X][Intel] Special Branch: Pull some financial trickery to get the information network classified as part of the Watch, so that their costs are covered by the Stirlandian treasury.
    -[X][Personal] Letters Home: You might be able to wring more information out of your Master, or you might just be able to get news, information and guidance in general from the Grey Order.
    -[X][Personal] Bound Spells: Though the corrosive Dhar made them high-maintenance, the design of the bound spells in the castle's infiltrators has fascinating possibilities. The memories had faded but you've managed to refresh them. Try to adapt it for use with Ulgu.
    --[X] Ranald's Blessing
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Omegahugger said:
Wait, you felt that using non-zero chance was misrepresenting when in reality the chance was not zero?

I am confused here.
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He felt that the 'non-zero chance' argument was used to compare both systems and conclude that overall risks are similarly bad in the rpg. So he decided to clarify for all of us who didn't read those tables what kind of chances we're actually talking about.
 
veekie said:
Its actually significant when you consider casual magic use over the span of a year however.

You significantly change the numbers when you roll the risk even once a day every year.
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One spell per day is a lot of casting for WFRP, IMHO. But yes, it gives you something like 2% chance of death per year. Unless you use only 1 magic die (no chance of miscast, but runs higher risk of insanity) or use protective circles (which let you to re-roll one die per casting). WFRP only describes temporarily circles, good for one casting, but I think that any wizard should have some sort of permanent setup like that in his lab.


Omegahugger said:
Wait, you felt that using non-zero chance was misrepresenting when in reality the chance was not zero?

I am confused here.
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You have a non-zero chance to die while eating(due to poisoning, or allergy or whatever), but that doesn't mean that eating is some sort of horribly dangerous activity. So "non-zero chance of death" isn't good argument for a danger of something in my opinion.

veekie said:
Its literally the second main selling point. If I changed thats a good way to see votes switch away
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Exactly!

veekie said:
I think the gap here is one side is thinking in terms of per adventure/per attempt risks, which is low, in a given campaign you are unlikely to roll instant death...while its distinctly different in a LIFETIME consideration, since we're playing on a per 6 month basis.

Even being careful, Mathilde probably faces at least one minor mishap every turn.
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Probably more, to be honest. Minor miscasts are very plentiful - they are what makes wizards seem suspicious to the general population - all that curdled milk stuff etc. Journeymen like Mathilde have 10% of such occurrence per spell, Wizard Lord going full-power will have something approaching 50% chance of some level of manifestation.
 
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Adhoc vote count started by HanEmpire on Feb 17, 2018 at 4:51 AM, finished with 119 posts and 39 votes.
  • [X] Plan The Front Don't Need Us Yet
    -[X][Intel] Information Broker: Start selling tidbits of information, just enough for your information network to start paying for itself.
    -[X][Personal] Seek out a new leader for the Watch.
    -[X][Personal] Scribe: Altdorf's scribe did not get on well with the Prince. He's going to be rather busy with burning things, but maybe that'll put him in a better mood if you offer your own services. (NEW-ish)
    --[X] Ranald's Blessing(if available)
    [X] Plan Bound Spells
    -[X] Information Broker: Start selling tidbits of information, just enough for your information network to start paying for itself.
    -[X] Seek out a new leader for the Watch.
    --[X] Ranald's Blessing
    -[X] Bound Spells: Though the corrosive Dhar made them high-maintenance, the design of the bound spells in the castle's infiltrators has fascinating possibilities. The memories had faded but you've managed to refresh them. Try to adapt it for use with Ulgu. (NEW-ish)
    [X] Plan No Offloading
    -[X][Intel] Information Broker: Start selling tidbits of information, just enough for your information network to start paying for itself.
    -[X][Personal] Seek out a new leader for the Watch.
    -[X][Personal] Scribe: Altdorf's scribe did not get on well with the Prince. He's going to be rather busy with burning things, but maybe that'll put him in a better mood if you offer your own services. (NEW-ish)
    --[X] Ranald's Blessing(if available)
    [X] Plan Help, I've Locked Myself In Van Hal's Study
    -[X][Intel] Attaché Paperwork: The Intelligence Attachés are your biggest expense by far - see if you can have them paid for by the Army of Stirland instead.
    -[X][Personal] Undead Research: You know the basics, now. Perhaps a great deal of effort will allow you to advance further.
    -[X][Personal] Snooping: Van Hal gave you a key to his Study. He didn't specifically say not to poke around and see what you could find.
    [X] Plan The Front Don't Need Us Yet edit
    -[X][Intel] Information Broker: Start selling tidbits of information, just enough for your information network to start paying for itself.
    -[X][Personal] Seek out a new leader for the Watch.
    --[X] Ranald's Blessing(if available)
    -[X][Personal] Scribe: Altdorf's scribe did not get on well with the Prince. He's going to be rather busy with burning things, but maybe that'll put him in a better mood if you offer your own services. (NEW-ish)
    [X] Plan let's not sell our country's secrets for cash
    -[X][Personal] Seek out a new leader for the Watch.
    -[X][Personal] Scribe: Altdorf's scribe did not get on well with the Prince. He's going to be rather busy with burning things, but maybe that'll put him in a better mood if you offer your own services. (NEW-ish)
    --[X] Ranald's Blessing(if available)
    -[X] Bound Spells: Though the corrosive Dhar made them high-maintenance, the design of the bound spells in the castle's infiltrators has fascinating possibilities. The memories had faded but you've managed to refresh them. Try to adapt it for use with Ulgu. (NEW-ish)
    [X] Plan How To Spell Wizard
    -[X][Intel] Special Branch: Pull some financial trickery to get the information network classified as part of the Watch, so that their costs are covered by the Stirlandian treasury.
    -[X][Personal] Letters Home: You might be able to wring more information out of your Master, or you might just be able to get news, information and guidance in general from the Grey Order.
    -[X][Personal] Bound Spells: Though the corrosive Dhar made them high-maintenance, the design of the bound spells in the castle's infiltrators has fascinating possibilities. The memories had faded but you've managed to refresh them. Try to adapt it for use with Ulgu.
    --[X] Ranald's Blessing
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I'm more annoyed that we spent an action last turn remembering bound spells only to skip them again for who knows how long the Purge lasts? When Mathilde said in-quest that we could learn them if we tried again.
 
Guile said:
I'm more annoyed that we spent an action last turn remembering bound spells only to skip them again for who knows how long the Purge lasts? When Mathilde said in-quest that we could learn them if we tried again.
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3 Purge turns counts for 1 normal turn. Its not so time critical but if nothing is on fire yet I see no problem next turn
 
LockedMind said:
One spell per day is a lot of casting for WFRP, IMHO. But yes, it gives you something like 2% chance of death per year.

<...>

You have a non-zero chance to die while eating(due to poisoning, or allergy or whatever), but that doesn't mean that eating is some sort of horribly dangerous activity. So "non-zero chance of death" isn't good argument for a danger of something in my opinion.

<...>

Probably more, to be honest. Minor miscasts are very plentiful - they are what makes wizards seem suspicious to the general population - all that curdled milk stuff etc. Journeymen like Mathilde have 10% of such occurrence per spell, Wizard Lord going full-power will have something approaching 50% chance of some level of manifestation.
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You also have to account for Fate Point mechanics, which makes it even safer for players (and presumably other important people). It was few years ago, but I was both player and game master in WFRP - and I tried to portray magic as dangerous. All while rather 'happy-go-lucky' players treated it as safe to use in any way they wished. At a point, I really, really wanted that to be punished... but it never was. Despite of how much they were casting, nothing horrible ever really happened. So yeah, it is safer than miscast table makes it seem at first glance.

But.

BoneyM said explicitely that we are not playing by WFRP rules. He took thematics, spells, majority of setting, but not mechanics and not details. Magic that is safe(-ish) in WFRP is not necessarily safe in quest. Opposite is also true. All that matters is thematics of magic: "cast using a piece of hell". With all that it implies in narrative.

<sigh> I just wish it was easier to predict what exactly does it mean in quest. The details. Things like risk/safety, ease of casting, narrative wilpower needed to cast, limitations like spell interactions, etc.
 
DiceOfStupidity said:
You also have to account for Fate Point mechanics, which makes it even safer for players (and presumably other important people). It was few years ago, but I was both player and game master in WFRP - and I tried to portray magic as dangerous. All while rather 'happy-go-lucky' players treated it as safe to use in any way they wished. At a point, I really, really wanted that to be punished... but it never was. Despite of how much they were casting, nothing horrible ever really happened. So yeah, it is safer than miscast table makes it seem at first glance.

But.

BoneyM said explicitely that we are not playing by WFRP rules. He took thematics, spells, majority of setting, but not mechanics and not details. Magic that is safe(-ish) in WFRP is not necessarily safe in quest. Opposite is also true. All that matters is thematics of magic: "cast using a piece of hell". With all that it implies in narrative.

<sigh> I just wish it was easier to predict what exactly does it mean in quest. The details. Things like risk/safety, ease of casting, narrative wilpower needed to cast, limitations like spell interactions, etc.
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Main issue where we're concerned is that we'd find a lot of resistance to us casting or binding spells to anyone with a choice I think. And enchanted items are a big risk/reward game, barring long proven ones.

Mathilde had been pretty lucky and it helps.
 
DiceOfStupidity said:
It has been few years, so maybe I am mistaken, but as far as I remember, in RP game miscasts were strongly dependant on used level or power. Petty magic was essentially safe(-ish), while lesser magic miscasts were essentially manageable. You had to have a hell of a bad luck for anything really bad to happen to You - even ten lesser magic miscasts made during training would not be a serious threat to caster as long as one didn't try to be stupid and recovered before casting any more magic. It was when You went up with power level that miscasts were becoming deadly.
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The impression I got from the magic we've seen in this quest (and from @BoneyM's comments) is that casting a weaker version of a spell or cantrips and the like gives a corresponding decrease in the chances of a miscast occuring (environmental factors such as being in combat can apply, but presumably does so equally across all levels of spells).

On the other hand if the wizard does miscast all bets are off. Whether it was a petty cantrip or master-level battle magic you roll on the same table (to use RP terminology). Admittedly higher level spell failure probably increases you're chance of rolling badly, but that doesn't mean miscasting a cantrip is in any way safe.

EDIT:
[X] Plan The Front Don't Need Us Yet
 
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BoneyM said:
As others have said, it's a distinction without meaning. A 'spell' is just a specific and codified way of manipulating Ulgu.



Not really. Magic is feared. It's been less than two centuries since the time when anyone capable of wielding magic in the Empire was burned at the stake. The trinkets being sold are supposedly religious in nature, not magical.



That's why the Empire has Witch Hunters.



To use magic, a wizard channels the raw magical energies through themselves and out again in the form of a spell. A miscast is when that process is interrupted and the energies are no longer under the wizard's control while still in the wizard's body. There is absolutely no such thing as a 'manageable' miscast, only miscasts where you get lucky. And there's no real way to mitigate this. You could minimize the chance of miscasts by only ever using spells far below your level of ability, but that will cause your level of magical ability to suffer. You could only ever cast spells under ideal conditions when there's nothing distracting you, but the times you need magic most is usually the least ideal conditions to cast it. You're a wizard; there's a significant chance your life will end because one day you reach for your magic and it goes terribly wrong. The time to worry about that was during character creation, when there were all sorts of classes that weren't wizard.

Additionally, I would urge in the strongest possible terms that anyone that wants to engage with this quest should stop assuming that anything will work based on the rules of WHFRP. I have read WHFRP books for lore and spells, but I have spent no time whatsoever learning how the rules of it work.
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Is it possible to create a new style of casting spells by using a focus to minimize miscasts? Try specific pros and cons would be up to you but it should be a safer style of magic suited for beginners.

So instead of manipulating magic inside themselves, a wizard would direct it externally and into the focus so it should be safer.

I'm not sure if I'm misremembering but wasn't there enchantmented staffs that can hold a spell useable by even those without magic? Like oneshot spell scrolls in some games. If that's true a possible research would be to make them rechargeable so people can use spells like guns.
 
Shape_Shifter said:
Is it possible to create a new style of casting spells by using a focus to minimize miscasts? Try specific pros and cons would be up to you but it should be a safer style of magic suited for beginners.

So instead of manipulating magic inside themselves, a wizard would direct it externally and into the focus so it should be safer.

I'm not sure if I'm misremembering but wasn't there enchantmented staffs that can hold a spell useable by even those without magic? Like oneshot spell scrolls in some games. If that's true a possible research would be to make them rechargeable so people can use spells like guns.
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And then your gun was a demon.
 
Shape_Shifter said:
Is it possible to create a new style of casting spells by using a focus to minimize miscasts? Try specific pros and cons would be up to you but it should be a safer style of magic suited for beginners.

So instead of manipulating magic inside themselves, a wizard would direct it externally and into the focus so it should be safer.

I'm not sure if I'm misremembering but wasn't there enchantmented staffs that can hold a spell useable by even those without magic? Like oneshot spell scrolls in some games. If that's true a possible research would be to make them rechargeable so people can use spells like guns.
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Thats what Wizards are ALREADY doing. They limit to one Wind, to codified spells and all...

...but for what you want? The closest thing is the dwarf runesmiths where the magic is entirely externalized and specific.

So take months to shape a single, specific magical effect and bind it to an object.

Or you can get a divine sponsor and cast as per a priest. Bugger all research or flexibility available, but the backlash isn't going to kill you.
 
veekie said:
Thats what Wizards are ALREADY doing. They limit to one Wind, to codified spells and all...

...but for what you want? The closest thing is the dwarf runesmiths where the magic is entirely externalized and specific.

So take months to shape a single, specific magical effect and bind it to an object.

Or you can get a divine sponsor and cast as per a priest. Bugger all research or flexibility available, but the backlash isn't going to kill you.
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Wait a minute, why can't we become a priestess of Ranald? Right now we have supernatural luck, if we actually tried I'm sure we can get some new abilities like bringing bad luck to our enemies in combat.
 
Shape_Shifter said:
Wait a minute, why can't we become a priestess of Ranald? Right now we have supernatural luck, if we actually tried I'm sure we can get some new abilities like bringing bad luck to our enemies in combat.
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Wizard magic is different from divine magic.
Humans can't switch modes of thought from one Wind without going mad.
Ranald is not known for sponsoring sorcerors.

No7sHere said:
Or I guess if we have few hundred years spare we could try to figure out how to the elves avoid miscasts.
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Have a hundred year long apprenticeship and a 500 year old teacher. Have superior elf brain.
 
I mean immortality is theoretically on the table, is we saturate ourselves sufficiently in Ulgu, we might not like the side effect but we would have plenty of time to get very good at using magic.
 
veekie said:
Wizard magic is different from divine magic.
Humans can't switch modes of thought from one Wind without going mad.
Ranald is not known for sponsoring sorcerors.



Have a hundred year long apprenticeship and a 500 year old teacher. Have superior elf brain.
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Well Ranald isn't worshiped often right? Maybe once we finish the palace and offer tribute to Ranald he might give us something, maybe if we say it will show all the other gods how better he is.

Still his Blessing is amazing.
 
veekie said:
Have a hundred year long apprenticeship and a 500 year old teacher. Have superior elf brain.
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A hundred year long apprenticeship may be a little exaggerated. The WFRP books have a career progression of Apprentice Wizard -> Journeyman Wizard -> Master Wizard -> Wizard Lord, with the final career having a note that "Should an Elf attain this level of magical skill, he is considered to have completed his minor magic apprenticeship, and is ready to travel to the towers of Hoeth to become a High Mage."
 
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