Omegahugger
Inattentive Idiot
All of them are in character, otherwise we couldn't vote for them.
Now, sacrificing the crystal to Mork, that would be out of character despite being obviously the best choice.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Now, sacrificing the crystal to Mork, that would be out of character despite being obviously the best choice.
Ericwinter
Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator
- Location
- America
…What, no suggestion to offer it up to Abelhelm's spirit so he can ascend and come back to us? I'm disappointed, Hugger.
- Location
- South Africa
It is only fair. We sacrificed quite a bit of Mork and Gork to Ranald after all.
Magnos III
(Unverified Planeswalker)
So, like, 'If Ranald does not stop me than surely I'm doing something that he would approve of?' That's some Miko Miyazaki form Order of the Stick logic right there (no offense).
I would rather have Ranald as a partner in this than go behind his back.
Like…
Perhaps in our world but not in Warhammer Fantasy where the Gods make their opinions known with great frequency (and at times with loud voices).
1) I fully believe that Ranald is aware of what we are doing and very enthusiastic wants to be invited into this. Yes, that will mean that the consequences for what happens will be greater if the other gods find out but it will also mean that we can count on his help.
2) And even if he tells us to stop doing what we are doing, maybe because of 'Mathilde, honey, Iove the enthusiasm but we cannot fight the entirely of the other gods at the same time' I'm also fine with it. If Ranald says it's a bad idea then it is a bad idea, we have to thrust our friend and God here, he has never given any reason not to.
3) It's also possible that this is a test by Ranald and, ultimately, I value Mathilde's relationship with Ranald more than I value this line of research that, If I'm being honest, I'm not entirely sure what would produce.
All you have said only makes me more certain that Faith is the correct choice.
If Ranald is seeing all of this, and if we believe that Ranald is seeing this then he can't deny that he could have stopped us if we were found out, so it's better to have him as a partner than trying to do it futilely behind his back.
I'm honestly neutral about doing this research or not but I believe that the research would benefit more with Ranald helping it out than trying to do this behind his back. And if he tells us to stop I'm also fine with it because we both already have way to many things to do and I'm still unsure about what benefits this research would achieve in the first place.
And yes doing this behind his back is a betray, and that is not even taking into account that Ranald is a God; I would feel very upset if a friend stole my fingerprints out of nowhere. Sure: if he told me about it saying it was an accident I would laugh about it but if he tried to hide it from me I would be upset.
But more than that? This is the bloody theft of the century! Ranald will be upset as all hell if he does not get to participate in it! Can you imagined his sad face thinking that Mathild did not want to share this with him?
(Plus there is always the chance that he is looking at us right now doing this and would punish us if we don't share it with him; I don't think it would be smiting or anything like that but he might revoke the Coin privileges for a time as punishment).
NSMS
Probably evil, unfortunately.
- Location
- A rapidly widening tear in the fabric of reality
In the sense of being better able to avoid becoming a target, sure. In the sense of being better able to survive if we do get directly targeted (a worst case and I will happily say probably very unlikely scenario), though? Compared to an ocean or even a lake, a bucket of water isn't much more impressive than a cup.
It isn't explicitly stated anywhere, but I'm sure giving back what you took is considered bad form within the cult of Ranald.
We have Avatar which means we can feel it coming, that is not a thing that depends on how strong we are magically... and once we do feel it we have a sword to turn the focus of said visitation to rubble. Gods may be strong but the veil of reality is stronger than all of them in the end.
Omegahugger
Inattentive Idiot
Mathilde has many experiences with Gods. More than most humans could even dream of. Not a single one of them had a physical form she could hug.…What, no suggestion to offer it up to Abelhelm's spirit so he can ascend and come back to us? I'm disappointed, Hugger.
Gods are entities too insignificant for my desires.
- Location
- Chicago
- Pronouns
- She/They
...I don't see how a sword would have changed anything in the Stromfell's exorcism. Dude was bitten in half literally out of nowhere.
So I'm really not in agreement that we can take a minor god if we need to.
I'm also pretty sure that if even a minor god spots us doing this, they will eventually share the info with other gods.
Destroy the Altar before his power could fully manifest.
Are the other gods running a god syndicate? Do they randomly care about the assholes in their midst out of species wide loyalty? Why would they even believe the assholes in general, especially when they are saying something that could be damaging to the very state that kills the worshipers of said proscribed god on sight?
NSMS
Probably evil, unfortunately.
- Location
- A rapidly widening tear in the fabric of reality
Again to go back to the Stromfels incident, there was no manifestation there to act as a warning or to defend against. Just one moment Wolf was fine, the next he was half gone. Avatar could and probably would grant us a moment's warning, but I'm not convinced that warning would actually help much (or at all).
Tasoli
Life is for Living
- Location
- Behind the Keyboard.
That was exorcism tough, not our picture taking that won't intrude them at all. There won't be same connection for gods to strike.
I would like to see Gundred to go to Sigmar and complain. Comedy skit right there.
Stormfels was full on divine combat. We are not doing that.
We had no manifestation because we did not have avatar and were mostly blind to divine energies. There is no proof that we would not be able to sense a build up now. in that time we would not have to cast a spell of anything, just smash the altar with a teleporting sword
- Location
- UK
I mean, yeah. As has been discussed I'm pretty convinced Ranald is watching right now, or will be soon, and in the past he has explicitly told us when we were doing something He disapproves of. Ergo, if He says nothing, He approves.
As for why Ranald doesn't give overt approval, one theory is that He can't without investing His status as a God into the project, which would make the risks far too high. Plausible deniability.
I agree in that I think Ranald absolutely wants this to happen, but I don't think he can be a full partner, the consequences would be too great if we get caught (which is a great shame for everyone involved). And besides, this is the God of cats we're talking about, if Ranald wanted in and had no reason not to involve Himself completely, He would just involve Himself
- Location
- Upon the back of the Great A'Tuin
[X] Faith
I see no reason to betray our friend and god. He's always had our back when we needed him so let us show that we have his. Besides, all the others backed Magnus, and Magnus backed wizards I see no reason to give them cause to regret this decision.
I see no reason to betray our friend and god. He's always had our back when we needed him so let us show that we have his. Besides, all the others backed Magnus, and Magnus backed wizards I see no reason to give them cause to regret this decision.
- Location
- The Space Between
AV is a stable version of all the winds, potentially a "liquid High Magic" which would explain the Elven relationship to their Gods. Sufficiently advanced High Magic would involve invoking patterns which may or may not echo their Gods directly. Thus why they would think that all human Gods must be derivatives of their own, why they wouldn't potentially shatter our minds with the knowledge since. Well. Sounds like a good way to mass-recruit human Tzeentch worshippers. Thus why the Elves would consider their gods both metaphor and real. Thus why the Elves wouldn't think to stop worship or spread of knowledge of their least tasteful gods since they're just a known self-replicating pattern of the combined winds.
Like.
If every instance of High Magic touched by the patterns of Gods immediately becomes attuned to their power, then you'd need to cultivate a balanced emotional state to prevent the High Magic from becoming Divine of a Deity or congealing into Dhar from imbalance. The fact that the Vaul Smiths are able to forge only with the assistance of Divine Magic makes sense, as it'd be the only alternative to balance when enchanting something with specific patterns of one of the winds.
This would also impact Elven interaction with Dwarves, as the Dwarves are blind to the Winds (which make up the Elven gods). Their blindness makes them excellent at smithing enchantments and the sort, but they cannot channel any of the winds themselves. Thus the Dwarves are excellent at making circuitry and high-precision insulators in "Clean Rooms" that couldn't be accomplished by Elves who can only approximate a "clean room" through Divine Magic creating barriers between winds to prevent Dhar congealing or keeping it balanced in High Magic
The funny thing about the Elven pantheon though, is that those patterns can't be the eldest patterns. The eldest patterns have to be the Old Ones, which are functionally the transcendent slann-like beings that transcended physical form in 40k lore.
That suggests that the other "Gods" of the setting are all from a similar mechanism? The Lizardmen may or may not have this information but they see themselves as servants.
The question is how Transcendence actually functions, how the patterns of a being assert their own presence in the Warp without falling prey to the realm of Chaos. This directly relates to our questions about Gilded Hounds, and other such non-Daemonic entities of the Warp.
No Memes, the process may involve the emotions/wills of huge amounts of mortals over long periods of time. Or alternatively a smaller amount fully sacrificed body and soul to them, as with Daemon Prince Ascension.
That would explain the Ancestor Gods, Daemon Princehood, Lesser Deities, Mork'n'Gork, and why the Gods aren't omniscient. They're simply beings living in the Warp with their own small fiefs apart from the greater Chaos of the Warp.
which would make Mallus an experimental physical realm inundated with the Warp but separated from it by the constant draining of the Warp Energies in a balance not unlike High Magic vs Dhar. We know that here, in this bastion, many Gods can survive opposition to the forces of greater Chaos for some reason. Perhaps an intentionally engineered effect?
No I think this line of research isn't only going to tug on the Gods, I think it'll directly tug on the nature of Mallus and the ways in which it keeps itself both exposed to the Warp (through the gates) and regulated from the Warp (by The Vortex and the Great Plan pre-Gates-Falling) so that non-Chaos Gods can exist in relative safety from them.
[X] Truth
I was wondering about the utility of such divine exploration, but I can think of a number of high-reward possibilities for this research now.
Potential Ascendance as a new goddess of Order
Potential combination of Wind Incarnate Magisters into a High Magic Divinity (Elspeth for Shyish, us for Ulgu, Gelt for Chamon probably, so on and so forth)
Potential understanding of Divine Casting leading to "Divine Tongs" which is almost certainly what the Smiths of Vaul use
Potential understanding of Non-Chaotic-Warp leading to better Ulgu Battle Magic (specifically summons)
Potential understanding of Divinity allowing Cython to do ????
Potential understanding of Divinity leading to a better understanding of Necromancy (and a better ability to counteract it)
Potential understanding of Divinity combined with Dispelling Ork Magic in order to go even further than Waagh and Peace
Potential understanding of Divinity combined with Ulgu to create counterfeit/illusion-of Divinity
I dislike the downplaying of risk. This is like, this is beyond Liber Mortis tier tbh. It's way more dangerous, but I think that it eventually wraps back around to The Waystones and The Great Plan so it might be super worth it. There's actually no way to permanently stabilize Mallus without a better understanding of both The Great Plan and why it failed, so. You know. Let's gamble all-in on the ability to not fuck up the handling of knowledge that every known force in Warhammer Fantasy would worse-than-death us for
In addition, this is the kind of secret that only Lady and Lord Magisters can handle. Ulgu is an edge. We run astride it for maximum potential, or a sliced in twain for a misstep
Like.
If every instance of High Magic touched by the patterns of Gods immediately becomes attuned to their power, then you'd need to cultivate a balanced emotional state to prevent the High Magic from becoming Divine of a Deity or congealing into Dhar from imbalance. The fact that the Vaul Smiths are able to forge only with the assistance of Divine Magic makes sense, as it'd be the only alternative to balance when enchanting something with specific patterns of one of the winds.
This would also impact Elven interaction with Dwarves, as the Dwarves are blind to the Winds (which make up the Elven gods). Their blindness makes them excellent at smithing enchantments and the sort, but they cannot channel any of the winds themselves. Thus the Dwarves are excellent at making circuitry and high-precision insulators in "Clean Rooms" that couldn't be accomplished by Elves who can only approximate a "clean room" through Divine Magic creating barriers between winds to prevent Dhar congealing or keeping it balanced in High Magic
The funny thing about the Elven pantheon though, is that those patterns can't be the eldest patterns. The eldest patterns have to be the Old Ones, which are functionally the transcendent slann-like beings that transcended physical form in 40k lore.
That suggests that the other "Gods" of the setting are all from a similar mechanism? The Lizardmen may or may not have this information but they see themselves as servants.
The question is how Transcendence actually functions, how the patterns of a being assert their own presence in the Warp without falling prey to the realm of Chaos. This directly relates to our questions about Gilded Hounds, and other such non-Daemonic entities of the Warp.
No Memes, the process may involve the emotions/wills of huge amounts of mortals over long periods of time. Or alternatively a smaller amount fully sacrificed body and soul to them, as with Daemon Prince Ascension.
That would explain the Ancestor Gods, Daemon Princehood, Lesser Deities, Mork'n'Gork, and why the Gods aren't omniscient. They're simply beings living in the Warp with their own small fiefs apart from the greater Chaos of the Warp.
which would make Mallus an experimental physical realm inundated with the Warp but separated from it by the constant draining of the Warp Energies in a balance not unlike High Magic vs Dhar. We know that here, in this bastion, many Gods can survive opposition to the forces of greater Chaos for some reason. Perhaps an intentionally engineered effect?
No I think this line of research isn't only going to tug on the Gods, I think it'll directly tug on the nature of Mallus and the ways in which it keeps itself both exposed to the Warp (through the gates) and regulated from the Warp (by The Vortex and the Great Plan pre-Gates-Falling) so that non-Chaos Gods can exist in relative safety from them.
[X] Truth
I was wondering about the utility of such divine exploration, but I can think of a number of high-reward possibilities for this research now.
Potential Ascendance as a new goddess of Order
Potential combination of Wind Incarnate Magisters into a High Magic Divinity (Elspeth for Shyish, us for Ulgu, Gelt for Chamon probably, so on and so forth)
Potential understanding of Divine Casting leading to "Divine Tongs" which is almost certainly what the Smiths of Vaul use
Potential understanding of Non-Chaotic-Warp leading to better Ulgu Battle Magic (specifically summons)
Potential understanding of Divinity allowing Cython to do ????
Potential understanding of Divinity leading to a better understanding of Necromancy (and a better ability to counteract it)
Potential understanding of Divinity combined with Dispelling Ork Magic in order to go even further than Waagh and Peace
Potential understanding of Divinity combined with Ulgu to create counterfeit/illusion-of Divinity
I dislike the downplaying of risk. This is like, this is beyond Liber Mortis tier tbh. It's way more dangerous, but I think that it eventually wraps back around to The Waystones and The Great Plan so it might be super worth it. There's actually no way to permanently stabilize Mallus without a better understanding of both The Great Plan and why it failed, so. You know. Let's gamble all-in on the ability to not fuck up the handling of knowledge that every known force in Warhammer Fantasy would worse-than-death us for
In addition, this is the kind of secret that only Lady and Lord Magisters can handle. Ulgu is an edge. We run astride it for maximum potential, or a sliced in twain for a misstep
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- Location
- not actually Urk, I just liked the alliteration
Faith means believing something without evidence - "Ranald has my back right now in the context of this fight against a champion of Khorne. If he doesn't then he's busy with something that is more important than my life and I'm okay with that."
Knowledge is just knowing that something is true - "Ranald exists."
We have a lot more faith in Ranald than we do in the other gods of the empire, but we know that the chaos gods exist without being obligated to have faith in them.
That's not a good reason to sacrifice our research to Ranald, If He knows what we're doing and has no reason to pretend otherwise, then there's nothing to stop him from getting involved. If He knows what we're doing but is pretending he doesn't, then we shouldn't mess that up for him.
If he hasn't even noticed what we're doing, then it clearly didn't do him any harm, and from this point onwards we'll be doing it to other gods anyway so it's not really his business unless we ask him to help by using the coin on it.
- Location
- Canada
[X] Truth