Victoria Falls: A Post-Collapse American Nation Quest [Down With Victoria!]

4WheelSword · Mar 13, 2019

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clockworkchaos · Nov 10, 2020

I love that omake, and I really hope it's cannonized.

dptullos · Nov 10, 2020

Introvert said:
This is an interesting argument, with the minor flaw that manifest destiny was the defining ideal from before American gained its independence until well after it stretched the width of the continent. An America which neither stretches from Atlantic to Pacific nor attempts to rectify that scenario as quickly as practical is not America. At best, it is as American as the HRE was Roman.

America is not just one thing. Slavery is American and abolition is American and a limited franchise is American and universal suffrage is American...

Americans disagree on what America is, and over time America changes as we believe different things about what our country is and should be. Our nation will not be a carbon copy of Manifest Destiny America, or even America before the Collapse. I will leave the issue of whether we can truly claim continuity with the prewar United States to philosophers. We claim to be American, we believe that we are American, and we don't accept arbitrary requirements from the distant past.

Simon_Jester said:
What if I disagree very strongly with your definition of "American," and do not think your definition is objective fact? What if I choose to identify with other defining ideals of America such as "the land of opportunity" or "the beacon of democracy" or "the melting pot and/or salad bowl of diversity?"

Fighting over what America stands for is the true defining feature of being American.

Twiggierjet said:
I like this Hannah Meier person. Such a promising young leader.

If you want to be a fanatical German militarist, it helps to have an extremely liberal Jewish woman leading your faction.

Starship Trooper said:
I like that Walter calls out princess Katrina
she spacks of peace while her nation still torments those around them

I wanted to emphasize that Katerina is right about one thing; her dad is constantly undermining her, and people notice when his actions do not match up with her words.

Russia has reached the practical limits of how much they can expand. At this point, the Empire cannot really hold that much more territory, and any new conquests they make would involve a major struggle against established alliances, rather than simply rolling into nations in chaos and installing local puppet rulers. It makes sense to take a step back, sign some treaties, and settle down to stabilize their shiny new Empire, but Alexander...he just can't stop.

Cyberphilosipher said:
Katrina is truly the embodiment of the Eco-Facist agenda...its fine to save the earth, just as long as Russia is in charge.

The Hypocrisy of Her actions speaks louder than the Salt generated by the Romans when sacking Carthage.

I'm not going to whitewash Katerina, who is a deeply unpleasant person in many ways, but I think she does have a better understanding of the current situation than her dad.

Europe does not want to spend more money on their military. They do not want an ongoing set of proxy wars with the Russosphere. However, they are strong enough to build up their military and fight those proxy wars, and they will do it if Russia doesn't stop treating them like Americans treated South America. Destabilizing France was a mistake, because it showed all of Katerina's negotiating partners that Alexander doesn't want stable, successful neighbors.

clockworkchaos said:
I love that omake, and I really hope it's cannonized.

Thank you! I want to portray Alexander as a genius, a man of exceptional ability, but also as a man who really doesn't understand or appreciate international norms. He took power in a time of chaos, when there were no rules, and he continues to operate that way even as the world changes around him.

Starship Trooper · Nov 10, 2020

if Katerina wants to inherit her father's empire she gets the blood as well.
cant have one and not the other

cant have your cake and eat it too

LilyWitch · Nov 10, 2020

Cyberphilosipher said:
Katrina is truly the embodiment of the Eco-Facist agenda...its fine to save the earth, just as long as Russia is in charge.

The Hypocrisy of Her actions speaks louder than the Salt generated by the Romans when sacking Carthage.

No superpower steps down quietly. Frankly Katrina is better then *literally every* major world leader today just for being willing to put in the work to stop the ongoing mass extinction.

I don't want Russia to continue to make peoples lives worse but I want people to have lives to ruin more. I frankly don't see it as worth it to crush Russia the way Russia crushed the USA if we can instead just get them to back off and we could all settle down into peace.

Its important to remember that Russia is not Victoria. Its not an uncounsionable evil, its just a normal superpower doing normal superpower things. The USA just happened to be on the recieving end this time.

P.S. To be clear I don't approve of any of said normal superpower things but... well that doesn't really matter as far as the superpowers are concerned.

Twiggierjet · Nov 10, 2020

Deleted

Starship Trooper · Nov 10, 2020

if tsar Katerina wants peace she needs to make concessions... like I don't know say that Alex was wong

at which point she'll go the way of another famous Russian princess and the court crowns her bother

imperial Rusia will fight tooth and nail to not be held accountable or give up any power

Simon_Jester · Nov 10, 2020

dptullos said:
If you want to be a fanatical German militarist, it helps to have an extremely liberal Jewish woman leading your faction.

Sara Goldblum:

"Duly noted."

Starship Trooper · Nov 10, 2020

dptullos said:
At this stage, it is more likely that California would eat us. The NCR is much more advanced and powerful than we are right now. They're building jet fighters and planning a war against Japan, while we are beating up on Russia's white supremacist Khmer Rouge.

you forget the rookies, and russia & japan there enemies are to the east

dptullos · Nov 10, 2020

Starship Trooper said:
if Katerina wants to inherit her father's empire she gets the blood as well.
cant have one and not the other

cant have your cake and eat it too

Katerina is not ignorant of how her father made Russia into a superpower. I think she simply wants to move the Empire into a period of consolidation rather than continuing to destabilize the neighbors.

Lupercal said:
No superpower steps down quietly. Frankly Katrina is better then *literally every* major world leader today just for being willing to put in the work to stop the ongoing mass extinction.

Walter never asks Russia to "step down". They have the Baltic states, most of Eastern Europe, and the Middle East. If they do nothing but keep the territories they completely control, they have an empire to rival Genghis Khan. The Europeans simply want Russia to accept the existence of other powers outside its borders that it does not control, which is something that every other superpower has historically done.

And no, Katerina is not better than every major world leader today. The Russian Empire is a fascist state that constantly supports the worst possible people around the world in the name of destabilizing everyone who is not their ally or their puppet. They support the Victorians.

Lupercal said:
I don't want Russia to continue to make peoples lives worse but I want people to have lives to ruin more. I frankly don't see it as worth it to crush Russia the way Russia crushed the USA if we can instead just get them to back off and we could all settle down into peace.

Crushing Russia really isn't an option. The Russian Empire might fall apart when the Tsar dies, but we aren't doing anything to them. Russia is an actual superpower, while we are a regional power in the Third World.

Lupercal said:
Its important to remember that Russia is not Victoria. Its not an uncounsionable evil, its just a normal superpower doing normal superpower things. The USA just happened to be on the recieving end this time.

P.S. To be clear I don't approve of any of said normal superpower things but... well that doesn't really matter as far as the superpowers are concerned.

Russia treats America like we treated Central and South America. The strong do as they like, and the weak suffer what they must.

Our chances of getting revenge against Russia are roughly as good as Iran's chances of defeating "the Great Satan". We should do our best to cripple Russia's influence in North America, but we aren't going to strike any great blows against the Empire.

Twiggierjet said:
If they haven't already done so, Germany can go 100% renewable by sticking a generator on top of all the nazi war criminals spinning in their graves.

They wished for a strong leader who believes that Germany should crush the Russian threat to Western Civilization. Shouldn't have trusted the monkey's paw!

Starship Trooper said:
if tsar Katerina wants peace she needs to make concessions... like I don't know say that Alex was wong at which point she'll go the way of another famous Russian princess and the court crowns her bother

imperial Rusia will fight tooth and nail to not be held accountable or give up any power

No one is asking Russia for an apology, because they know they won't get one. Tsar Alexander the Great is already a quasi-divine figure in domestic propaganda, and the moment he dies they're going to name everything after him.

The Europeans don't expect Russia to turn over war criminals or give up their ill-gotten gains. They would like them to settle for what they have and stop trying to destabilize a status quo which is in many ways absurdly favorable to Russia. However, Alexander made Russia into a world power through constantly destabilizing his neighbors, and old habits die hard.

If Katerina does take power, she'll need to manage several power blocs, some of which share her father's aggressive tendencies. She has a certain freedom as a "reformer princess" that she wouldn't have as Tsarina, when she would be pressured to continue the old Tsar's policies.

Starship Trooper said:
you forget the rookies, and russia & japan there enemies are to the east

I'm sorry, I don't understand.

I agree that there are a great many obstacles between us and some kind of union with California, but in the event that such a union took place, I'm pretty sure that California would be the leading partner.

They have more powerful enemies than we do; they are also a vastly more powerful state.

Introvert · Nov 10, 2020

Simon_Jester said:
What if I disagree very strongly with your definition of "American," and do not think your definition is objective fact? What if I choose to identify with other defining ideals of America such as "the land of opportunity" or "the beacon of democracy" or "the melting pot and/or salad bowl of diversity?"

Manifest destiny is the American ideals which lead to the revolutionary war, and every other American war between then and World War I, with the arguable exception of the Civil War.

Simon_Jester · Nov 10, 2020

Introvert said:
Manifest destiny is the American ideals which lead to the revolutionary war, and every other American war between then and World War I, with the arguable exception of the Civil War.

I think you're erasing the majority of American history to come to this conclusion. (EDIT: Or rather, you're erasing some of American history to come to this conclusion, and more of American history to conclude that it's the only thing that matters)

And I can't think of an honorable motive for you to be doing so.

Twiggierjet · Nov 10, 2020

Anyways, what do people think of my idea to have FCNY be our version of Hong Kong?

clockworkchaos · Nov 10, 2020

Simon_Jester said:
I think you're erasing the majority of American history to come to this conclusion.

And I can't think of an honorable motive for you to be doing so.

Agreed. Manifest destiny did not appear till 1845. Well after 1776.

Saint_007 · Nov 10, 2020

Excellent omake, @dptullos . I think at this point, the Tsar has a hammer and everyone looks to him like nails. Problems is, someone might just toss him a land mine. He's fast approaching that point, and his whole fear of the former USA is affecting his judgement.

Saint_007 · Nov 10, 2020

Twiggierjet said:
Anyways, what do people think of my idea to have FCNY be our version of Hong Kong?

Well, for the time being, yes, that would be the wise choice. They've been handling themselves fine without us, and have done really well. Hell, they'll probably prefer to be their own thing for the foreseeable future, and reuniting the USA will take us a long damn time.

So yeah, let them be our Hong Kong, our gateway into the world's big money, even though we'll still have our own gateways to the world (St. Lawrence and the Mississippi). We help them out, they help us out, and we both keep an eye on Victoria.

Introvert · Nov 10, 2020

Simon_Jester said:
I think you're erasing the majority of American history to come to this conclusion. (EDIT: Or rather, you're erasing some of American history to come to this conclusion, and more of American history to conclude that it's the only thing that matters)

And I can't think of an honorable motive for you to be doing so.

1. I'm not aware of what I'm erasing.

2. It's not the only thing that matters, just like how free and fair elections, separation of church and state, or freedom of the press aren't the only thing that matter, but that doesn't mean that all of them are necessary for a nation to be America. If you miss any of them, you don't have America, you have something else. Likewise, without manifest destiny you don't have America. Whether or not what you have is better or worse is a matter for debate, but it is fundamentally different from America in such a massive way that it cannot truly be called a continuation or revival of America. Considering that we are playing an American Revivalist polity, I consider attempts at fulfilling manifest destiny to be inevitable. I make no commentary on whether or not this is a good thing.

3. I'm not aware of any dishonorable motive, and would appreciate it if you cut the implied condemnations. If you are going to insult me, insult me. If you aren't, don't. Pick one, and stick to it

Edit:
4. Source for the general idea of westward expansionism (the direct ideological precursor of manifest destiny) being one of the contributing factors to the revolutionary war.

Twiggierjet · Nov 10, 2020

Saint_007 said:
Well, for the time being, yes, that would be the wise choice. They've been handling themselves fine without us, and have done really well. Hell, they'll probably prefer to be their own thing for the foreseeable future, and reuniting the USA will take us a long damn time.

So yeah, let them be our Hong Kong, our gateway into the world's big money, even though we'll still have our own gateways to the world (St. Lawrence and the Mississippi). We help them out, they help us out, and we both keep an eye on Victoria.

I was kind of thinking of it being a permanent arrangement, as by the any sort of big unification happens they will have developed their own culture and way of doing things.

dptullos · Nov 10, 2020

Introvert said:
2. It's not the only thing that matters, just like how free and fair elections, separation of church and state, or freedom of the press aren't the only thing that matter, but that doesn't mean that all of them are necessary for a nation to be America. If you miss any of them, you don't have America, you have something else. Likewise, without manifest destiny you don't have America. Whether or not what you have is better or worse is a matter for debate, but it is fundamentally different from America in such a massive way that it cannot truly be called a continuation or revival of America. Considering that we are playing an American Revivalist polity, I consider attempts at fulfilling manifest destiny to be inevitable. I make no commentary on whether or not this is a good thing.

We are making attempts to fulfill our Manifest Destiny of rebuilding America. It's just that we're focused on diplomatic efforts to convince polities to join the Commonwealth, rather than ethnic cleansing the people who occupy those lands so that we can move in settlers.

Whatever the questers may believe, our choices and actions have been consistent with a Revivalist state that wants to restore America, but doesn't think "send in the tanks" is either a moral or a practical method of recreating the United States.

It took a very long term for America to stretch "from sea to shining sea". I don't see why an expansionist state couldn't advance its ambitions through a NATO or EU structure, with the intent of eventually turning military and economic alliances into national unification.

Twiggierjet said:
I was kind of thinking of it being a permanent arrangement, as by the any sort of big unification happens they will have developed their own culture and way of doing things.

There are plenty of societies in modern America that have radically divergent cultures and ways of doing things. I'm not saying that the FCNY will end up joining a new United States, but having a unique culture would hardly be an obstacle to being part of a larger Union.

Saint_007 said:
Excellent omake, @dptullos . I think at this point, the Tsar has a hammer and everyone looks to him like nails. Problems is, someone might just toss him a land mine. He's fast approaching that point, and his whole fear of the former USA is affecting his judgement.

Thank you! From what we've seen of the Tsar, he has a rather fixed "I win, you lose" mindset. Katerina isn't necessarily nicer, but she doesn't have his irrational obsession with the American boogeyman.

I imagine that one of Katerina's biggest problems is that many of Alexander's top people share his "hammer, meet nail" belief system. When he dies, she will take over a military and secret police that are fiercely patriotic, ambitious, and almost certainly male-dominated. Trying to sell them on a kinder, gentler Empire will be difficult, even if she is objectively right about the merits of not overreaching; successful imperialists rarely want to quite while they're ahead.

BoredStudent1414 · Nov 10, 2020

This universe has a way of generating angry vengeful rabidly antinazi Jewish women it seems. I am sure the Saras and Hannah Meier could bond if we ever travel to Berlin.

Introvert · Nov 10, 2020

dptullos said:
Whatever the questers may believe, our choices and actions have been consistent with a Revivalist state that wants to restore America, but doesn't think "send in the tanks" is either a moral or a practical method of recreating the United States.

I agree with this wholeheartedly, but I also believe that, once Victoria falls, there will be a not inconsiderable amount of public support IC to do exactly that. Denying this merely means that we will be less well prepared to deal with it.

Simon_Jester · Nov 10, 2020

Introvert said:
...If you miss any of them, you don't have America, you have something else. Likewise, without manifest destiny you don't have America. Whether or not what you have is better or worse is a matter for debate, but it is fundamentally different from America in such a massive way that it cannot truly be called a continuation or revival of America. Considering that we are playing an American Revivalist polity, I consider attempts at fulfilling manifest destiny to be inevitable. I make no commentary on whether or not this is a good thing.

I mean. By your basic argument, America hasn't been America since around 1890, with "the closing of the frontier" and consolidation of the continental United States as a single mass of territory.

Which is part of why I don't buy it. Territorial expansion can be a thing Americans want to do, and it can even be a thing Americans feel entitled to do. But it would be sheer nonsense to argue that America wouldn't "really" be America if not for, say, the annexation of northern Mexico after the Mexican-American War, on the grounds that it wouldn't contain all the sacred clay. Or that if the CSA had managed to secede during the Civil War, that the remaining United States wouldn't be "America" because sacred clay had been lost.

The exact geographic boundaries of the United States circa 19XX are not magic. They are the result of historical negotiation, happenstance, and specific actions taken by specific humans. You could have a radically different and non-American nation fully occupying those boundaries, or you could have an immediately recognizable America that doesn't fully occupy those boundaries.

3. I'm not aware of any dishonorable motive, and would appreciate it if you cut the implied condemnations. If you are going to insult me, insult me. If you aren't, don't. Pick one, and stick to it

My basic criticism of your position is that by adopting an "America is its clay and its expansionism" definition, you (like some others in the thread) provide an implicit justification for the following arguments:

1) Americans are justified in armed expansionism and revanchism, because there is some kind of imperative of the national spirit to take back the sacred clay at all costs. OR:

2) Americans have a unique right to control all of this land, because it is in the nature of their country to hold this territory.

Few if any other purposes are served by this, so far as I can determine, and intentionally serving these purpose would not be honorable.

...

Furthermore, a strong emphasis on how essential territory and expansionism are to American national identity can only come at the expense of other things that might be essential to that identity, many of which are rather less unsavory.

dptullos · Nov 10, 2020

Introvert said:
I agree with this wholeheartedly, but I also believe that, once Victoria falls, there will be a not inconsiderable amount of public support IC to do exactly that. Denying this merely means that we will be less well prepared to deal with it.

Keep in mind that the Farmer Party exists, and they were politically opposed to ongoing war with Victoria. We'll have a difficult enough time gathering the political will for eventually occupying and de-Victorianifying the Northeast, let alone some kind of grand campaign to reunify America at gunpoint.

Perhaps I am missing something, but I don't see any public support for invading free and democratic neighbors. Liberal democracies tend not to fight liberal democracies, especially when we have shared language, culture, and beliefs. It would be easier and more attractive to wage a cultural "war" where we fund a long-term propaganda campaign to convince everyone to join America through plebescite.

Simon_Jester said:
The exact geographic boundaries of the United States circa 19XX are not magic. They are the result of historical negotiation, happenstance, and specific actions taken by specific humans. You could have a radically different and non-American nation fully occupying those boundaries, or you could have an immediately recognizable America that doesn't fully occupy those boundaries.

Yes, exactly. Manifest Destiny was the product of a specific society that had a very strong desire for land and a great deal of contempt for the peoples who occupied that land. It would be considerably more difficult to justify violent expansion if the human beings dying in that expansion were considered actual human beings.

Simon_Jester said:
1) Americans are justified in armed expansionism and revanchism, because there is some kind of imperative of the national spirit to take back the sacred clay at all costs. OR:

This is also hilariously unjustifiable because we would be "taking back" America from...our fellow Americans. Not "inferior" natives, but people like us.

Introvert · Nov 10, 2020

Simon_Jester said:
1) Americans are justified in armed expansionism and revanchism, because there is some kind of imperative of the national spirit to take back the sacred clay at all costs. OR:

2) Americans have a unique right to control all of this land, because it is in the nature of their country to hold this territory.

My actual arguments are as follows:

1: American Revivalists will feel that they are justified in armed expansionism and revanchism, because there is some kind of imperative of the national spirit to take back the sacred clay at all costs.

2: Americans feel that they have a unique right to control all of this land, because it is in the nature of their country to hold this territory.

3: The above two are problems to be addressed, not ideals to be encouraged.

4: Denying points 1 and 2 in favor of believing that the people of the Commonwealth share the same morals as us will hamper us with regards to point 3.

dptullos · Nov 10, 2020

Introvert said:
My actual arguments are as follows:

1: American Revivalists will feel that they are justified in armed expansionism and revanchism, because there is some kind of imperative of the national spirit to take back the sacred clay at all costs.

American Revivalists have every reason to seek common cause with other revivalists, rather than seeking to conquer their fellow Americans. If you believe that you can talk your neighbors into joining with you peacefully, why would you attack them?

You can have an imperative of the national spirit to take back the sacred clay, and that Revival can involve lots of trade treaties and diplomacy and political discussions instead of murdering your neighbors. Also, murdering your neighbors makes it less likely that the next community will view you as the legitimate heirs of a democratic nation. Manifest Destiny is part of American history; so is "consent of the governed".

Introvert said:
2: Americans feel that they have a unique right to control all of this land, because it is in the nature of their country to hold this territory.

As far as I can tell, Americans do control a great deal of America's land. We are Americans and the FCNY are Americans and a great many communities are also Revivalists who love America. I'm not sure why we would be fighting our fellow Americans, who share our hopes and dreams and ideals, when we could be trading and talking with them. The Commonwealth is American, yes, but we are not the only Americans. We have no more right to conquer the FCNY than they would have to conquer us.

Introvert said:
3: The above two are problems to be addressed, not ideals to be encouraged.

I don't see quite as much of a problem. We can acknowledge every liberal democracy as a legitimate American successor state, express a strong desire to eventually unify all of America under a single government, and begin diplomatic outreach to start discussing what such a government would look like. This is much more popular than fighting, much less expensive than fighting, and has the added bonus of having a much better chance of succeeding than fighting.

Introvert said:
4: Denying points 1 and 2 in favor of believing that the people of the Commonwealth share the same morals as us will hamper us with regards to point 3.

The people of the Commonwealth do not have the same morals as us, but their anger is focused on the traitors and quislings who broke America in the service of the Russian Empire. They have bigger problems than the town that refuses to join the Commonwealth, and they can always tell themselves that patient diplomacy will eventually win them over.

Introvert · Nov 10, 2020

dptullos said:
The people of the Commonwealth do not have the same morals as us, but their anger is focused on the traitors and quislings who broke America in the service of the Russian Empire. They have bigger problems than the town that refuses to join the Commonwealth

And when it spans the majority of the continental US, what do you think they will view that one town as? It wouldn't be to hard for some of the more radical elements to portray any holdouts as traitors to the new nation, especially if they have different political ideologies to us.

I'm not saying that this is an insurmountable problem, but I a saying that if we do nothing to prepare or plan for it, we risk failing the single most important objective of this quest: "Do not become what you fight."

PoptartProdigy said:
You have also gutted the Unionists as a political force for the foreseeable future and absolutely infuriated Sperling, who almost certainly expected nothing like this when he sold out Masters. He remains free, however.

We haven't completely rooted out the crypto fascists, and we won't find ourselves in the position I mentioned above in the foreseeable future. That's more than enough time for them to make a comeback if we aren't proactive about dealing with them.

TLDR: As the Commonwealth is now, we have nothing to worry about. Unfortunately the Commonwealth as it is now won't be facing these issues, the Commonwealth of the future will, and its nature is far less cretain.

Victoria Falls: A Post-Collapse American Nation Quest [Down With Victoria!]

The original N-body Problem

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