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Non-Canon Omake: Herald of the End
Herald of the End
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"The Old World's weapons are gone, smashed apart by the Luddites come again. When the time comes for the fight at the end of our solitude, it will be heralded by the unveiling of these machines." - Rebecca Curtis, Founding Family member, March 2nd, 2058

With horror stories of Victorian tanks and the CMC elites that accompanied them percolating to Wyoming from across the Old Country, the Families were filled with dread at the inevitable confrontation that would follow their discovery. Recognising the threat of armored fighting vehicles, the Founding Family was charged with the design of a warmachine of their own making, one that could give a fighting chance against Victorian T-34's and BTR's.

With quality steel at a premium, dreams of an independently produced tank of their own were quickly abandoned. Instead, thoughts turned to the notion of a multirole armored car. Thus the Herald began development.

A hand-tooled replica of the 5.4L V8 engines of the Families' original trucks was decided on as a base, enhanced with a supercharger and modified with an engine snorkel that would allow the Herald to wade through deep streams and rivers. With regards to armor, the Founding Family decided on a 2-inch shell of welded steel, supplemented with slat armor to save weight and safeguard the vehicle from man-portable anti-armor weapons. The driver's viewport and those on the commander's cupola were repurposed from scavenged ballistic shields and covered with steel shutters.

With mobility as their surest defense against cannons, there were concerns over how to secure bulletproof tires for the Herald. After much trial and error, the Chemist Family had found a functional combination of replacing the compressed air inside the tire with pre-Collapse insulation foam.

An armored aluminum ramming prow was placed at the front to provide additional protection and spaced armor to the engine compartment where it overlapped with the slat armor, as well as shielding for the engine snorkel by sheathing it in an arched metal duct that ran along the top of the body up to the roof.

A two-man turret was placed mid chassis, featuring a 90 mm swing breech recoilless rifle and a coaxial revolving grenade launcher. Atop the turret a belt-fed automatic shotgun rested on a pintle mount, to be used by the commander.

In all, the Herald is operated by a crew of four, with the driver seated at the front, with the gunner and commander within the turret. The loader for the recoilless rifle is seated below the turret, where they can open the swing breach with a lever, load a shell and close it again, allowing for an average rate of fire of up to 12 shots per minute with a trained loader while stationary. This design choice was made to allow for greater sloping on the turret without making internal space too cramped. The grenade launcher is reloaded by the gunner, who is given the canisters by the loader.

In the event that the crew must abandon the vehicle, the Herald has a total of 3 hatches. One next to the driver's seat, the commander's cupola hatch, and the hatch on the opposite side of the loader's seat, also meant for the gunner's use. To prevent hatches from becoming jammed by impacts deforming the metal, the hatches were made round in shape.

All this, after decades of refinement, resulted in a 10-ton vehicle that can still maintain a cruising speed of 70 m/h, capable of performing in infantry support and possessing adequate anti-tank ability. Yet, all the same, the Families are fearful of this vehicle, for it being used in anything but testing will mean that they have lost the ability to hide from those who would see them and their works destroyed.
 
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So, thoughts on the Herald?
Not a chemical or material sciences engineer. Or a weapons engineer.
That said, it basically looks like a BTR-80 with no troop compartment, with the following criticisms:

It seems to me that you are going to be able to process usable steel much more easily than aluminium, given the resources that the makers have on tap. Aluminium prows are right out; if you need one, use more steel. Not that a ten ton vehicle should need a specialized ramming prow in the middle of Wyoming.

And fiberglass sure as hell isn't likely to work for tires.

Coaxial grenade launcher requires that they have a steady supply of 40mm grenades. Which seems unlikely, given their industrial base.
Coaxial machinegun yes. AGL, unlikely.
And automatic shotguns don't work as a firearm.

Main gun fires too fast.
A Carl Gustav recoilless fires at a rate of 6 rounds per minute.
Having a manually loaded recoilless rifle firing at a rate of 1 round every two seconds is not plausible.

Too many crew.
No reason to have both a vehicle commander AND a radio operator.

Armor is too heavy.
You might manage two inches on the frontal arc. Maybe. That should give you protection against 50 cal AP ammo, assuming it's proper armor.
But 2 inches of steel all round and remaining at 10 tons? Seems implausible, when you consider the weight.

For reference, a BTR-50 tracked APC has only 13mm of steel on it's frontal arc, and weighs almost 15 tons.
A BTR-70 wheeled APC weighs 11.5 tons, but only has 9mm steel to the front, and 7mm to the sides.

And critically, what are you running it on? Biodiesel? Wood ethanol? Imports from Alberta?
We're having trouble sourcing diesel over in Chicago, and we're a trade hub. The middle of Wyoming doesn't seem like it would be petroleum rich.
 
It seems to me that you are going to be able to process usable steel much more easily than aluminium, given the resources that the makers have on tap. Aluminium prows are right out; if you need one, use more steel. Not that a ten ton vehicle should need a specialized ramming prow in the middle of Wyoming.
In reality, the ramming prow is closer to bullbars with aluminum plating that just ended up looking like a prow due to being shaped for ballistic protection, which they got from scrapping abandoned cars. They'd love to use more steel, but they need to make the amount they have go quite far.
And fiberglass sure as hell isn't likely to work for tires.
Fair enough, will edit that out.
Coaxial grenade launcher requires that they have a steady supply of 40mm grenades. Which seems unlikely, given their industrial base.
Coaxial machinegun yes. AGL, unlikely.
And automatic shotguns don't work as a firearm.
It isn't an AGL, it's a riot gun that got mounted as a coaxial. As for automatic shotguns... Automatic shotgun - Wikipedia
Main gun fires too fast.
A Carl Gustav recoilless fires at a rate of 6 rounds per minute.
Having a manually loaded recoilless rifle firing at a rate of 1 round every two seconds is not plausible.
Fair point, will edit that to something more reasonable.
Too many crew.
No reason to have both a vehicle commander AND a radio operator.
Fair. Was wrestling between having a radio operator and a central steering system anyways.
Armor is too heavy.
You might manage two inches on the frontal arc. Maybe. That should give you protection against 50 cal AP ammo, assuming it's proper armor.
But 2 inches of steel all round and remaining at 10 tons? Seems implausible, when you consider the weight.

For reference, a BTR-50 tracked APC has only 13mm of steel on it's frontal arc, and weighs almost 15 tons.
A BTR-70 wheeled APC weighs 11.5 tons, but only has 9mm steel to the front, and 7mm to the sides.
I will point out that the Herald is also a whole lot smaller than a BTR, due to not being a troop carrier.
And critically, what are you running it on? Biodiesel? Wood ethanol? Imports from Alberta?
We're having trouble sourcing diesel over in Chicago, and we're a trade hub. The middle of Wyoming doesn't seem like it would be petroleum rich.
Butanol from mushrooms they farm. It's a thing that exists: Mushroom farms hold a secret to sustainable biofu - Anthropocene
 
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No one wins when you argue about it.

reeks of indecisive centrism :p

jokes aside
''we all can get along'' is just a lie

trying to appease everybody equally is a dead end

context matters
want compromise? argue and discuss give and take untill you find an agreement both side might not like but can endure
not simply ignoring the issue and ''cha cha cha real smooth'' wait until it disappears

lets take for example entrepeneurs and unionists

unionist might want better wages and better working conditions,were little buisness owners might want less taxes and less restrictions

the solution is not cutting in half
a real in depth study of both sides problems and desires must be done in order to achieve the most optimal agreement

I always dislike handwaving ''why cant just get along'' politics type of argument

want a hybrid government?
discussion and strife are a must
 
Rabies is unsettling as fuck. And I have lived in places where rubber necklaces were a possible consequence for criminals caught in the act.
But the hatred it takes to attempt to trade for PoWs with people who you've never met before....
Brr.

Yeah, both of these started as happier divergence ideas. The first was a look at what she could have been, but, well, that isn't happy when you actually write it out because of what it shows was lost. The second started as a thought of 'what if, somehow, the kidnapped victims managed to understand their abusers for what they were, and never brought the bullshit?" since that's the part of writing Mary that I find the most tragic. But the problem was, as I write it 'don't buy their bullshit' doesn't mean 'unscarred'. They are deeply scarred in entirely new ways. Perhaps the saddest part for me is the line "We aren't interested much in the future" for what it says about their worldview and how little they care about anything but getting some measure of revenge. How much they just don't... care.

Part of the reason I put the winning vote is that, well, I wanted a little bit of a happier ending. Rabies Mary may not care, but the Sara's do.
 
I meant what I said in the context of everyone getting heated and forcing the mods to get involved everytime the arguments getting out of hand.

I'd happily argue with all of you on the nature of what our glorious Commonwealth should be doing in a hypothetical future of nation-building. I said everything from that point in the process of careful wording so as not to incite flame wars because I'm a history person not a political Sci Major.

But I'm not the kind of person who starts flame wars or arguments, I'm the one who breaks them down in simple terms and tries to be pragmatic.
reeks of indecisive centrism
*Laughs in Social Democracy with American Characteristics.*

Thank you for the points I will endevor to learn from them.
 
-Oh I agree. But those actions are likely to be covert, or at least nominally deniable.

Fighters are not covert, and risk expensive assets, while a group of "bandits"/renegades with man- and animal-portable weapons are both cheap and eminently deniable, while providing valuable operational experience. And possibly, being one way of getting rid of said hardliners when their internal agitation becomes a distraction. The sort of low-risk harassment I expect to see around the edges of our sphere of influence before long while they trade with us.
Eh, sure probably- but such harassment won't do much to stop us, probably, and won't do much to protect Blackwell's reputation. He may have to lean very very heavily on the CMC Inquisitors to ensure that his will is enforced, and that sort of thing is costly and only goes so far. So there is a distinct chance of him making a significant attack on us with actual Victorian military forces, before he achieves full rearmament in (realistically) 5-10 years' time. It's a possibility that would probably go badly for him IF we're ready for it... but by that same token we need to be ready for it.

- Not yet, no.
Heavy SAMs might be able to fit on a Des Plaines if you use box launchers for your Standard missile like Iran does; otherwise no.
But in a year or two, when I expect that Blackwell might have enough spare resources to throw his hardliners a bone, we probably should.
Radar will be the issue. But then, I suspect we'll be able to get others to supply that to us for intelligence.
My core point is that our next-generation successor to the Des Plaines-class for fighting on the Lakes needs to be large enough to carry SAMs that are not shoulder-fired. The details are kind of beside the point.

Rabies is unsettling as fuck. And I have lived in places where rubber necklaces were a possible consequence for criminals caught in the act.
But the hatred it takes to attempt to trade for PoWs with people who you've never met before....
Brr.
To be fair, this would probably seem like a coldly rational act to the Children if, and this is important, all the brainwashing abruptly vanished at once.

Which is the core premise of Rabies, in my opinion, though @clockworkchaos may have her own thoughts on the matter.

If Poptart descends from On High -- wait, sorry, read that wrong, from Ohio -- and decrees that henceforth all questers must create a character, define that character's views, get it OKed as lore-compliant, and vote in a way justifiable from that character profile, fine. That could be a fun sort of quest...
Yeah. I've already voted against what Sara Goldblum would say a time or three, I'm pretty sure.

So, thoughts on the Herald?
Chlorine gas is grossly overrated as a weapon of war. It disperses quickly. It does not leave a strongly toxic residue and so cannot be easily used as a long-term 'area denial' weapon against a bunker or something. It is visible as this extremely dangerous-looking green fog and so the enemy knows they are being attacked by chemical weapons immediately and can fall back. Soldiers are highly unlikely to be killed by chlorine gas unless you lay down very large barrages, unless they have nowhere to run to, or unless you have enough firepower to kill them reliably as they attempt to escape... which in turn entails having a lot of guys with guns.

While sometimes that's good enough all by itself (it can force the enemy temporarily out of a trench if they have no gas masks), it has limitations. Even the most rudimentary protective gear can provide significant protection against it, up to and including pissing on a rag and tying it in front of your face (note that a normal wet rag would do this too).

If these guys are really serious about chemical warfare, they need, dunno, at least phosgene or something.

Too many crew.
No reason to have both a vehicle commander AND a radio operator.
By the way, @Sir_Travelsalot , this is pretty important. The bigger the crew, the bigger the crew compartment, which in turn drives up the size of the vehicle. And makes it a bigger target, often a taller target. An effective crudely improvised armored car/light tank that's designed to be able to trade slams with any plausible enemy technical and win needs to be low-slung and good at getting in the first shot.

For reference, a BTR-50 tracked APC has only 13mm of steel on it's frontal arc, and weighs almost 15 tons.
A BTR-70 wheeled APC weighs 11.5 tons, but only has 9mm steel to the front, and 7mm to the sides.
To be fair, @uju32 , BTR-series personnel carriers have that giant crew compartment, which takes up a lot of physical space and requires that men be able to stand up inside the vehicle with some degree of comfort. This makes them much bigger, boxier targets, which in turn means you just can't afford to put thick armor on.

A smaller, lower-slung vehicle can concentrate more armor protection.
 
In reality, the ramming prow is closer to bullbars with aluminum plating that just ended up looking like a prow due to being shaped for ballistic protection, which they got from scrapping abandoned cars. They'd love to use more steel, but they need to make the amount they have go quite far.
I still have my doubts about their whole ability to process aluminium.
You'd probably be better off just using steel there. But like I said, not a material science engineer.
It isn't an AGL, it's a riot gun that got mounted as a coaxial. As for automatic shotguns... Automatic shotgun - Wikipedia
-It's an armored vehicle. Why would you put what's essentially a sawnoff shotgun on your turret? A gun with a max range of 100 yards?
If things are FUBAR enough to deploy your hidden trumpcard of an armored vehicle with a recoilless rifle primary weapon, why are you crippling it by ensuring that it's secondary weapon is outranged by an M-16?

And if you somehow decide its necessary to have a nonlethal weapon, smoke/teargas rounds out of the recoilless are going to be much better at it than a shottie firing baton rounds.

-Note that noone uses automatic shotguns in combat. There's a reason for that. Closest is it a shortbarelled shotgun used as a breaching weapon.
None of them are beltfed either.
I will point out that the Herald is also a whole lot smaller than a BTR, due to not being a troop carrier.
Lemme put it this way: A 2019 Toyota Highlander
This SUV said:

Averages roughly 16 feet long by 6 feet wide. Gross weight of around 6000 pounds.
A square foot of 1-inch thick homogenous armor steel plate averages forty pounds weight. To cover the top of a rectangle the dimensions of a Toyota Highlander with 2 inches of armor steel will cost you 7860 pounds of weight. That's 3.93 metric tons.

That 4 tons of weight is just for the top of the vehicle.
I haven't armored the bottom, or the sides, or added a turret with weapons on top of the vehicle, or the structural reinforcement for all that weight.
Or included the vehicles organic weight. Or the engine needed to haul all that weight at 70km/hr.

Alright, if you say so.
 
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Chlorine gas is grossly overrated as a weapon of war. It disperses quickly. It does not leave a strongly toxic residue and so cannot be easily used as a long-term 'area denial' weapon against a bunker or something. It is visible as this extremely dangerous-looking green fog and so the enemy knows they are being attacked by chemical weapons immediately and can fall back. Soldiers are highly unlikely to be killed by chlorine gas unless you lay down very large barrages, unless they have nowhere to run to, or unless you have enough firepower to kill them reliably as they attempt to escape... which in turn entails having a lot of guys with guns.

While sometimes that's good enough all by itself (it can force the enemy temporarily out of a trench if they have no gas masks), it has limitations. Even the most rudimentary protective gear can provide significant protection against it, up to and including pissing on a rag and tying it in front of your face (note that a normal wet rag would do this too).

If these guys are really serious about chemical warfare, they need, dunno, at least phosgene or something.
In fairness, they have the chlorine gas to take advantage of T-34's lack of environmental sealing, more so than to attack infantry with it. Even if the crew doesn't choke to death, chlorine hydroxide in the intake is not likely to do the tank's engine any favours.
 
In fairness, they have the chlorine gas to take advantage of T-34's lack of environmental sealing, more so than to attack infantry with it. Even if the crew doesn't choke to death, chlorine hydroxide in the intake is not likely to do the tank's engine any favours.
No offence, but no.
You do not design a vehicle with allegedly 50mm of steel armor to fight a force that's plentifully supplied with RPG-7s that will happily penetrate armor thats 6x thicker. Slat armor only goes so far.

And as an answer to Vic T-34s, it's terrible; even the original 76mm gun on a T34 will punch through 92mm of steel armor at 500m.
The 85mm on the Vic tanks would penetrate >100mm of steel armor at 1km.
It's fine against technicals. You only take this thing up against proper Vic armor if you want to die.

And almost as importantly, using chemical weapons when your own NBC protection isn't especially good is just asking for disaster.

EDIT
It's niche would be as fire support for infantry forces. Hence the recoilless, and hopefully a coaxial heavy machinegun.
But not to overplay one's hand. It's not a tank; don't use it as one.
 
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It's an armored vehicle. Why would you put what's essentially a sawnoff shotgun on your turret? A gun with a max range of 100 yards?
If things are FUBAR enough to deploy your hidden trumpcard of an armored vehicle with a recoilless rifle primary weapon, why are you crippling it by ensuring that it's secondary weapon is outranged by an M-16?
Riot GUN, not riot SHOTGUN, as in the style of an M32 revolving grenade launcher.
-Note that noone uses automatic shotguns in combat. There's a reason for that. Closest is it a shortbarelled shotgun used as a breaching weapon.
None of them are beltfed either.
The automatic shotgun is something of their own making. And the reason listed for lack of range is that the barrel has to be short or it's too heavy, which is a non-issue for a mounted gun. And most of the reason for not carrying shotguns to combat is that body armor exists.

The Herald is them making the best of what they have. And most of what they have in weaponry are the contents of police armories.
 
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In fairness, they have the chlorine gas to take advantage of T-34's lack of environmental sealing,
The tanks will just move out of the gas clouds. They may not have environmental seals, but the tankers aren't dumb enough to stay in "Park" after a cloud of green smoke erupts around their position and appalling burning stench starts coming in out of the ventilators.

Plus it wouldn't be too much of a stretch for the Victorians to have, y'know, gas masks. It's not outside their capabilities and the Families have no way of knowing they don't.

more so than to attack infantry with it. Even if the crew doesn't choke to death, chlorine hydroxide in the intake is not likely to do the tank's engine any favours.
No realistic chemical weapons attack will unleash so much gas that the engines of vehicles choke. Not over a plausibly large area of the battlefield.

This is the kind of gimmick that maybe knocks out one or two tanks, but in practice just pisses the enemy off so they're motivated to slaughter all your women and children after crushing your resistance.

Remember, don't just think about "hmmm, how would I cleverly bypass the defenses of a lone enemy tank that sat still and let me kill it." Think about how you'd use a weapon to repeatedly kill the enemy, while they are actively trying to kill you, and when they have already learned from the last battle how your weapon works and have put at least minimal thought into countering it.

A weapon that only works before the enemy knows it exists, is usually not a very good weapon.

Riot GUN, not riot SHOTGUN, as in the style of an M32 revolving grenade launcher.
"Riot gun" is actually a common if archaic term for all repeating shotguns including pump-action designs such as the M1897 Winchester. If it's a grenade launcher you need to call it that.

Also, there is very little tactical purpose to an automatic shotgun that cannot be achieved with an automatic rifle. And one thing there will be LOTS of in shortly post-Collapse Wyoming is semi-automatic firearms that can be modified into automatic ones.

What implied this? They have environmental sealing for anything short of being completely submerged, and that just floods the engine.
Given the improvisational quality of the weapon system as a whole and of their industrial base, I wouldn't trust those seals very far if I were you. How do they test them? What's their maintenance protocol? Did they have pre-Collapse people who were experts in designing it?

I honestly think a realistic version of the Families would give up the chemical weapons idea after realizing that they were probably more likely to have a handling accident and have it kill a bunch of their own people than for it to make a real difference on the battlefield against any opponent they couldn't just easily drive off with a hail of perfectly normal gunfire.
 
Riot GUN, not riot SHOTGUN, as in the style of an M32 revolving grenade launcher.
The recoilless will be better at throwing explosive loads, and you can't build rounds for a grenade launcher anyway.
Not on the industrial base you've described.

I mean, from my admittedly uneducated position as an armchair general, it seems like a waste of valuable turret space on an expensive vehicle.
Might be the kind of mistake you'd expect a bunch of amateur weapon enthusiasts to make, maybe.
But most soldiers with any combat experience would bring it up after the first test firings.
The automatic shotgun is something of their own making. And the reason listed for lack of range is that the barrel has to be short or it's too heavy, which is a non-issue for a mounted gun.
I don't think you thought this through.

A Carl Gustaf recoilless weighs 30 pounds, and yet infantry hump it around in the field. A SAW weighs 22 pounds loaded, and there's one in almost every infantry squad. We put 85 pound M134 miniguns on boats, helicopters and Humvees without issue.
If an automatic shottie was any good, you'd see people carrying it, or mounting it on vehicles. They don't.

If it is that some gun nut in their group has enough pull to have been pushing his pet weapon on everybody, that's a useful bit of local color and characterization for the group as it has been presented.
But I don't buy an argument that asserts that this group made a fundamental breakthrough in warfighting that noone else has come across.
 
What implied this? They have environmental sealing for anything short of being completely submerged, and that just floods the engine.
What Simon says.
I harbor extreme doubts about the quality of environmental seals that can be achieved in a workshop setting by amateur vehicle builders using salvaged materials. I certainly wouldn't bet my life on them.

And I don't think anyone who grew up in pre-Collapse America, and was risk-averse enough to lead the group this long, would do so either.
 
It's entirely possible that isolated randos built a weapon that isn't exactly the most effective. If they're basically average people just stringing together things that seem like they should work and don't have any chance to test their ideas. It's not like they used to design tanks. They're randos flipping through books and going, "Hey, does this seem like it would be real killy?".

I would expect their weapon of war to be pretty jank and full of Killdozer-tier "Oh, hey, you know what could work??" ideas.
 
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Given the improvisational quality of the weapon system as a whole and of their industrial base, I wouldn't trust those seals very far if I were you. How do they test them? What's their maintenance protocol? Did they have pre-Collapse people who were experts in designing it?
As someone studying welding, I can say this with some authority:
Welders who don't know how to make airtight seals, and make sure they're airtight, don't get to work as welders for very long.
I honestly think a realistic version of the Families would give up the chemical weapons idea after realizing that they were probably more likely to have a handling accident and have it kill a bunch of their own people than for it to make a real difference on the battlefield against any opponent they couldn't just easily drive off with a hail of perfectly normal gunfire.
One has to bear in mind, that the Families only have collated rumors to go on for Victorian Military doctrine/equipment/tactics. They hear about troops that can appear from anywhere, so they think the primary infantry deterrent should make filling every cubic foot of empty space around it lethal a priority. They hear about ancient tanks, so they turn to something they can make that they think might work, and lessened range shouldn't be too big of a problem when you're going to be fighting in close quarters in the middle of forests, right? All their combat doctrine for legitimate armies is theoretical.
 
It's entirely possible that isolated randos built a weapon that isn't exactly the most effective. If they're basically average people just stringing together things that seem like they should work and don't have any chance to test their ideas. It's not like they used to design tanks. They're randos flipping through books and going, "Hey, does this seem like it would be real killy?".

I would expect their weapon of war to be pretty jank and full of Killdozer-tier "Oh, hey, you know what could work??" ideas.
Quite frankly this is a good point.

I'm not sure the result would compete well against technicals built up by other survivor groups that have more actual warfighting experience.

As someone studying welding, I can say this with some authority:
Welders who don't know how to make airtight seals, and make sure they're airtight, don't get to work as welders for very long.
The problem is that it isn't just a matter of keeping the tank airtight. You need a filtration system, and you need it to be reliable, and you need chemical warfare protection for your foot soldiers too (which is decidedly NOT something you can weld together or jury-rig out of welding gear).

One has to bear in mind, that the Families only have collated rumors to go on for Victorian Military doctrine/equipment/tactics. They hear about troops that can appear from anywhere, so they think the primary infantry deterrent should make filling every cubic foot of empty space around it lethal a priority. They hear about ancient tanks, so they turn to something they can make that they think might work, and lessened range shouldn't be too big of a problem when you're going to be fighting in close quarters in the middle of forests, right? All their combat doctrine for legitimate armies is theoretical.
...This is sounding less and less like it's going to produce a viable weapon system as opposed to a white elephant whose combat performance could have been exceeded by just spending all that time, metal, and energy on equipping the people who made the "tanks" with infantry weapons and training.
 
It's entirely possible that isolated randos built a weapon that isn't exactly the most effective. If they're basically average people just stringing together things that seem like they should work and don't have any chance to test their ideas. It's not like they used to design tanks. They're randos flipping through books and going, "Hey, does this seem like it would be real killy?".

I would expect their weapon of war to be pretty jank and full of Killdozer-tier "Oh, hey, you know what could work??" ideas.
Good point.
As someone studying welding, I can say this with some authority:
Welders who don't know how to make airtight seals, and make sure they're airtight, don't get to work as welders for very long.
Point of order:
NBC protection have little enough to do with welding. It's airconditioning, and filters, and maintaining overpressure inside the vehicle itself to keep out external air. It's rubber/plastic seals and the right type of optics that can be seen through even in dangerous environments.

There's a lot more to fighting vehicle design than welding.
 
...This is sounding less and less like it's going to produce a viable weapon system as opposed to a white elephant whose combat performance could have been exceeded by just spending all that time, metal, and energy on equipping the people who made the "tanks" with infantry weapons and training.
Yeah.
They might be better off with a design that's basically sticking a recoilless rifle/machinegun combo on the back of a pickup truck with an armored cab and adding a gunshield. Cheap and straightforward.
 
Yeah.
They might be better off with a design that's basically sticking a recoilless rifle/machinegun combo on the back of a pickup truck with an armored cab and adding a gunshield. Cheap and straightforward.

I assume that these and a bunch of trucks are basically the CFC's main mechanized forces. Real Toyota War hours.
 
The problem is that it isn't just a matter of keeping the tank airtight. You need a filtration system, and you need it to be reliable, and you need chemical warfare protection for your foot soldiers too (which is decidedly NOT something you can weld together or jury-rig out of welding gear).
I am aware. This was more in response to the question of expertise for making sure they work + the noted decades they had to make sure everything on it works, including NBC.
Yeah.
They might be better off with a design that's basically sticking a recoilless rifle/machinegun combo on the back of a pickup truck with an armored cab and adding a gunshield. Cheap and straightforward.
I never claimed it was necessarily even going to be effective. The Founding Family brought all their ideas to bear, and they found something they think could work, and they could build with what they had on hand. My feedback requests were more in hopes that the thing could plausibly exist.
 
The recoilless will be better at throwing explosive loads, and you can't build rounds for a grenade launcher anyway.
Not on the industrial base you've described.
When I made the original post for the Families, I did mention that the chlorine gas grenades they use? Those canisters used to hold tear gas. The Families find it easier to reuse the canisters with their own payloads than make a production line for grenade launcher munitions, especially since they already have explosive ordnance in the recoilless rifle.
 
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