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[X] Something isn't right here. Push across the river and into Buffalo before reestablishing defensive lines. Maybe that will bait out the response for which you've been looking -- and you won't exactly complain about the opportunity to deny Victoria the rail infrastructure within the city.
 
[X] Something isn't right here. Push across the river and into Buffalo before reestablishing defensive lines. Maybe that will bait out the response for which you've been looking -- and you won't exactly complain about the opportunity to deny Victoria the rail infrastructure within the city.

Here's hoping when we get to Buffalo, we can start looting all that sweet machine tools to make our munitions/rifles.
 
[X] Something isn't right here. Push across the river and into Buffalo before reestablishing defensive lines. Maybe that will bait out the response for which you've been looking -- and you won't exactly complain about the opportunity to deny Victoria the rail infrastructure within the city.
 
[X] Something isn't right here. Push across the river and into Buffalo before reestablishing defensive lines. Maybe that will bait out the response for which you've been looking -- and you won't exactly complain about the opportunity to deny Victoria the rail infrastructure within the city.
 
[X] Something isn't right here. Push across the river and into Buffalo before reestablishing defensive lines. Maybe that will bait out the response for which you've been looking -- and you won't exactly complain about the opportunity to deny Victoria the rail infrastructure within the city.
 
[X] Something isn't right here. Push across the river and into Buffalo before reestablishing defensive lines. Maybe that will bait out the response for which you've been looking -- and you won't exactly complain about the opportunity to deny Victoria the rail infrastructure within the city.
 
[X] Something isn't right here. Push across the river and into Buffalo before reestablishing defensive lines. Maybe that will bait out the response for which you've been looking -- and you won't exactly complain about the opportunity to deny Victoria the rail infrastructure within the city.
 
[X] Something isn't right here. Push across the river and into Buffalo before reestablishing defensive lines. Maybe that will bait out the response for which you've been looking -- and you won't exactly complain about the opportunity to deny Victoria the rail infrastructure within the city.
 
[X] Something isn't right here. Push across the river and into Buffalo before reestablishing defensive lines. Maybe that will bait out the response for which you've been looking -- and you won't exactly complain about the opportunity to deny Victoria the rail infrastructure within the city.
 
[X] Something isn't right here. Push across the river and into Buffalo before reestablishing defensive lines. Maybe that will bait out the response for which you've been looking -- and you won't exactly complain about the opportunity to deny Victoria the rail infrastructure within the city.
 
[X] Something isn't right here. Push across the river and into Buffalo before reestablishing defensive lines. Maybe that will bait out the response for which you've been looking -- and you won't exactly complain about the opportunity to deny Victoria the rail infrastructure within the city.
 
So what are the options? My understanding is:

1) Stay put.
2) Take Buffalo and defend.
3) Take Buffalo and attack.

This is a great point fasquardon makes that's probably worth noting.

We can use Victorian rolling stock to support raids out of Buffalo, depending on how much coal is stockpiled there, and how much damage the CMC did.
Coal trains aren't designed to be complicated to run, after all. And there's a rail line from Buffalo to Rochester.
Which makes for a stronger argument for taking Buffalo. The coal might actually be usable for our gunships as well.

...........

Okay, I'm convinced. We should take Buffalo.
Then start running air raids out of the airfield.

And I am not sure how easily the Commonwealth army would actually be able to use the steam trains. Still, I absolutely think that we need to use Buffalo's port and the railroad if we're going to be able to force a peace. (Even if we can't use the steam engines, there are a few ways we could still get use from the railroad including just marching down them like they were a road.)

fasquardon
 
Can we even hold Buffalo?

My chief idea of what is going on is that Blackwell and Crusaders are negotiating the ceasefire for duration of commie invasion, and the reach and aggressiveness of our actions will determine whether said ceasefire will be achieved.

[X] Remain in place as planned. The Victorians will respond, and you will beat them back at the Niagara.
 
[X] Something isn't right here. Push across the river and into Buffalo before reestablishing defensive lines. Maybe that will bait out the response for which you've been looking -- and you won't exactly complain about the opportunity to deny Victoria the rail infrastructure within the city.

Paranoia Bandwagon intensifies
 
And I am not sure how easily the Commonwealth army would actually be able to use the steam trains.
Given the issues with our manufacturing base, the Commonwealth is almost certainly back to using steam engines for traction on railroads, insofar as it has them.

Metaphorically poisoned the wells. Committed some war crime that renders the city dangerous, like scattering IEDs throughout it or or set up sarin gas bombs all over the place.
I mean, it's possible, but remember what happened when they tried to blow the locks. The militia are poorly indoctrinated to perform ruthless acts against the local population and might even start fighting among themselves if it happened.

The highest risk of any of what you describe would be the effects of the Crusader occupation of the city and the way they rapidly departed it.
 
[X] Something isn't right here. Push across the river and into Buffalo before reestablishing defensive lines. Maybe that will bait out the response for which you've been looking -- and you won't exactly complain about the opportunity to deny Victoria the rail infrastructure within the city.


Part of me is like poptart has to know we would vote this way. But otoh, we arnt trying to outguesse poptart, but Blackwell.

We might do some scouting and raiding fanning out from Buffalo into various parts of western New York State, but I doubt we'd hit any really remote targets without excellent intel on what could end up coming our way to hit back at us.

The one thing I'm tempted for is wrecking the railways. Its damaging and reduces Blackwells troop movement abilities if/ when he attacks.
 
I mean, the good shit, but yes. Cobbled-together gear, as best as you can. Their, "tanks," make their operators want to shriek in fury.

So to reiterate to everyone, so while we can adapt technicals to IFV tactics, we still doing the equivalent of a mad dash to a FO,fortifying it to wait for a counter attack, then moving out again . For 3 nights .

Your troops just started hitting the I'm tired phase, because without IFV and combat engineer vehicles, you digging in by hand.

Ideally, modern mech forces avoid this by fortifying up to level one only, so, foxholes, some OPs, some bagged positions to protect your heavy gear like ammo. One of the advantages of mech infantry is that the IFV does a lot of this. You need to position your weapons in defence, move your Bradley. Ammo is stored on the vehicles and already protected by armour, ditto to signals, water. But a motorized force? Well, they vulnerable to artillery so you need to provide some cover and protection, so even without the barbed wire protection of a FO, you need sandbags to protect your stuff.

Given that we were digging in to defend against a counterattack, we probably working our way up to level 2 fortifications , so we not just leaving range cards but some prepared positions to follow on forces such as the Tolederons.

Mech forces preserve troops stamina a lot but well, we starting to go into the BRO is tired territory.

That said. My vote is

[X] Something isn't right here. Push across the river and into Buffalo before reestablishing defensive lines. Maybe that will bait out the response for which you've been looking -- and you won't exactly complain about the opportunity to deny Victoria the rail infrastructure within the city.


So I haven't read victoria, but don't they have some weird ass military doctrine? Would them retreating and allowing us to advance fit in that doctrine, or be very opposite that doctrine?

Yes. Their first victory against US forces , the Numero Division, aka 1st was won by allowing them to advance, run out of supplies and get entrapped by light infantry and technicals.

The PROBLEM is that while this might sound believable back in 90s, Iraq showed that a persistant attack the like wielded is possible to be tracked by air and destroyed with superior firepower. Afghanistan complicates it by making it very difficult to deliver said firepower, combined with truly well trained and drilled RPG tank Hunter teams.
 
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I mean, it's possible, but remember what happened when they tried to blow the locks. The militia are poorly indoctrinated to perform ruthless acts against the local population and might even start fighting among themselves if it happened.

The highest risk of any of what you describe would be the effects of the Crusader occupation of the city and the way they rapidly departed it.

You're not wrong, which is why I'm in support of taking Buffalo. I'm just sort of jumpy, waiting for the other shoe.

From the perspective of fourth generation warfare, Buffalo is a white elephant. The civilian population is probably facing starvation and possibly plague (I doubt they were left much by way of medical supplies). Keeping them alive while we hold the city will tax our supply lines (which we are foolish to be relying on in the first place) and demoralize us. It creates a strategic point we have to defend, something that a 4GW practitioner can maneuver around. Under the Victorian doctrine the correct answer would be to range out through New York, foraging, raiding, and hitting infrastructure as we go.

Blackwell has a modified understanding of 4GW. He'll view us a ticks or some great mechanical claw that will not release what it has seized. I don't think its impossible that he thinks he's shoving Buffalo down our throats so we can choke on it.

Quick question: where does Buffalo get its electricity? Because its possible they are currently without power, further adding to the difficulties we will have keeping the civilians alive.
 
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[X] Something isn't right here. Push across the river and into Buffalo before reestablishing defensive lines. Maybe that will bait out the response for which you've been looking -- and you won't exactly complain about the opportunity to deny Victoria the rail infrastructure within the city.
 
[X] Remain in place as planned. The Victorians will respond, and you will beat them back at the Niagara.

This is not the time to throw the army over the Niagara. More than anything else, we need information and reconnaissance. By holding the Niagara line, we have a secure base that we can use to land small groups of soldiers on the lakeshores, to both play havoc with Victorian logistics and gather intelligence.
 
You're not wrong, which is why I'm in support of taking Buffalo. I'm just sort of jumpy, waiting for the other shoe.

From the perspective of fourth generation warfare, Buffalo is a white elephant. The civilian population is probably facing starvation and possibly plague (I doubt they were left much by way of medical supplies). Keeping them alive while we hold the city will tax our supply lines (which we are foolish to be relying on in the first place) and demoralize us. It creates a strategic point we have to defend, something that a 4GW practitioner can maneuver around. Under the Victorian doctrine the correct answer would be to range out through New York, foraging, raiding, and hitting infrastructure as we go.

Blackwell has a modified understanding of 4GW. He'll view us a ticks or some great mechanical claw that will not release what it has seized. I don't think its impossible that he thinks he's shoving Buffalo down our throats so we can choke on it.

Quick question: where does Buffalo get its electricity? Because its possible they are currently without power, further adding to the difficulties we will have keeping the civilians alive.

If we cross we will own both sides of the Niagra river, which should include the dams. I can't imagine we don't have electricity.
 
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[X] Something isn't right here. Push across the river and into Buffalo before reestablishing defensive lines. Maybe that will bait out the response for which you've been looking -- and you won't exactly complain about the opportunity to deny Victoria the rail infrastructure within the city.
 
Wow. I was expecting and somewhat counting on this, but I wasn't expecting it to be so overwhelming.

Vote closed.

Your winner!

[X] Something isn't right here. Push across the river and into Buffalo before reestablishing defensive lines. Maybe that will bait out the response for which you've been looking -- and you won't exactly complain about the opportunity to deny Victoria the rail infrastructure within the city.
PoptartProdigy threw 1 100-faced dice. Reason: Good Faith Effort Total: 40
40 40
 
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