Victoria Falls: A Post-Collapse American Nation Quest [Down With Victoria!]

[4WheelSword]

thread policy Discussion of politics that does not directly relate to the Quest or to Quest votes are banned from hereon out. This thread policy will be enforced by the Moderation team. Do not ignore it.

 

[AKuz]

[Propose] Return all war brides kidnapped from their homes over the years.
[Propose] Die in a fire
[Propose] Gib unfettered access to Saint Lawrence seaway
[Propose] Seriously, catch fire, halt, and die
[Propose] War reparations in material form. Gold is fine, industrial equipment nicer.
[Propose] See above calls for flame based destruction of Victoria

 

[andrewopk]

Versailles, anyone?

 

[Simon_Jester]

Again, you shake your head. "We have no idea. The case was signed as having been left in our central archives by a, 'Jonah Wilson,' but we're having trouble tracking him down. Our records are spotty, nobody remembers him, and it very well may be a pseudonym. It might be a dead end. We're looking, though."

Click to shrink...

Now see I would have signed it "Benjamin Gates."

Sara Goldblum:

"Who's that? Related to the computer guy?"

"We will," you vow. "To the shores of Maine, if we must."

She nods firmly back. "We must."

The two of you share a private smile.

Click to shrink...

Sara Goldblum:

"I like her. Can we keep her?"

Mesbah continues, "War is a constant companion in the world of the Collapse. Violence wracks the Country. That it has broken out between two such larger states as are represented here is a tragedy -- that it resulted in such staggering loss of life, albeit overwhelmingly from one participant, is even worse."

Swift briefly looks as though he's attempting to consume an unpeeled orange.

Click to shrink...

Oh that is some good ice burn.

Mesbah nods. "Thank you, Governor." She then looks to you. "President Johnson?"

You nod and lean forward, speaking from memory as you lock eyes with Swift. "The Commonwealth is willing to talk peace, but we do not acknowledge Victoria's claims of deception and unfairness. We acted in defense of an ally whom Victoria opted to attack without provocation, and we fought well in the resulting battles. We do not come to this table as a nation hoping to avoid a war it cannot afford; we come to this table as victors who have won their place beyond any contest. If these talks are to take place, I would demand that that be acknowledged."

You continue to stare into Swift's eyes. Go on, you think to yourself. Say it. Admit it. Admit it to my face. You lost. You. Lost. We beat you. Victoria went all-in, and Victoria lost. Tell me. Tell everybody. Tell the world.

You. Lost.

Swift breaks eye contact first, looking away and blinking furiously under the pretext of checking his papers. "Victoria acknowledges that it has suffered a defeat," he growls. "It acknowledges that the Commonwealth presently has the better of things."

Click to shrink...

"DEFEATIA!"

 

[Simon_Jester]

[Propose] Return all war brides kidnapped from their homes over the years.
[Propose] Die in a fire
[Propose] Gib unfettered access to Saint Lawrence seaway
[Propose] Seriously, catch fire, halt, and die
[Propose] War reparations in material form. Gold is fine, industrial equipment nicer.
[Propose] See above calls for flame based destruction of Victoria

Click to shrink...

See above comments as to specificity. Who are we calling to die in a fire?

[Also, realistically, we voted for this peace negotiation, we might as well see it through. We're not a nation really specced out for unending open warfare, and we kind of tried to avoid being that militaristic garrison state in the first place]

Versailles, anyone?

Click to shrink...

I for one have no intention of waiting twenty years to fight them again.

 

[Thors_Alumni]

Victoria needs to withdraw from New York completely and let us claim some Victorian territory. Maybe lets say 15 to 25 percent at the very least.

 

[KhazintheDark]

Well.

War reparations are an ask but not a given.

Preferential treatment for commerce lasts about as long as they're willing to rearm and their first target will be that ship.

Public statement broadcast to its citizens?

International statement?

Army limits? Unpalatable and we can't realistically enforce them.

Industrial equipment? Part of war rep perhaps?

Cession of slave trade (HA! It's a large part of their economy). Possibly for bargaining, push if we can but if it's that or industry one will harm Victoria more than the other. It's the industry.


The tricky thing is that we can't truly enforce any of these terms if Victoria decides to flaunt them. So it's best to go for a straight up transfer than anything sustained. All prisoners and war brides taken during the fight in exchange we send their prisoners back. They can't accept domestically but internationally, it looks really fucking bad.

 

[AKuz]

See above comments as to specificity. Who are we calling to die in a fire?

[Also, realistically, we voted for this peace negotiation, we might as well see it through. We're not a nation really specced out for unending open warfare, and we kind of tried to avoid being that militaristic garrison state in the first place]

I for one have no intention of waiting twenty years to fight them again.

Click to shrink...

Alright then:

Impossible Meme Demands:
[Propose] Victoria should abandon Capitalism
[Propose] No Borders, Only Socialism
[Propose] It's hard to think of things to demand, because Victoria is so shitty, perhaps they should just give up and enter the Commonwealth if they think they're so cool?

More realistic demands:
[Propose] FREE TRADE IN GRAIN
[Propose] Seriously though, knock knock, open up the door, it's Commonwealth goods here to blow your inefficient economy away Free Trade

Versailles, anyone?

Click to shrink...

[Propose] WAR GUILT CLAUSE

 

[Rockeye]

I'm assuming we can offer things to them, too.

[Propose] The Commonwealth will return all Victorian prisoners of war currently held by the Commonwealth within the next year.

[Propose] Victoria will publicly broadcast admissions of defeat to the Great Lakes region via radio within the next six months.
[Propose] Victoria will publicly broadcast admission that it attacked Denver without provocation to the Great Lakes region via radio within the next six months.
[Propose] Victoria will give the Commonwealth war reparations in the form of
-[] Gold, silver, and other precious metals.
-[] Industrial material and equipment
-[] Military equipment (I.E. rifles and ammunition)
-[] Boats and ships
-[] Old World artifacts and media
-[] Regular food shipments for the next two years

Are there any particular areas of Victorian land we want?

 

[taovkool]

You continue to stare into Swift's eyes. Go on, you think to yourself. Say it. Admit it. Admit it to my face. You lost. You. Lost. We beat you. Victoria went all-in, and Victoria lost. Tell me. Tell everybody. Tell the world.

Click to shrink...

Sara's being deliciously vindictive.

I'm really liking it.

[Propose] FREE TRADE IN GRAIN

Click to shrink...

I can agree with this. With certain caveats of course. Wouldn't be out of Alex's character to start poisoning the food and doing some economic tomfoolery.

 

[Mazeka]

The tricky thing is that we can't truly enforce any of these terms if Victoria decides to flaunt them. So it's best to go for a straight up transfer than anything sustained. All prisoners and war brides taken during the fight in exchange we send their prisoners back. They can't accept domestically but internationally, it looks really fucking bad.

Click to shrink...

Any chance of getting some Californian "brides" released?

 

[andrewopk]

There's no way they'll accept (and/or seriously hold to) dismantlement/millitary limitations, right?

 

[random_npc]

so, I think it would be wise to assume anything that's not paid upfront is essentially not going to get paid. They might play around for a while, but as soon as their rearmed they'll swing at us again, and until then they will cheat as hard as they can get away with.

So I think upfront payment, or permissions to do something that we don't need for long.

 

[NottheCrabs!]

so what do pepole think of making lake Eire and its coastline cities a DMZ for the vics?

 

[AKuz]

I can agree with this. With certain caveats of course. Wouldn't be out of Alex's character to start poisoning the food and doing some economic tomfoolery.

Click to shrink...

It's got kind of a dual purpose.

In the short term it can shore up our deficiencies, with regards to the refugee situation, especially since with control of the Lakes and the big boats we'll be doing the buying, importing, and distribution.

In the long term, once our shit is sorted out, our mechanized, midwest, large scale farms will be able to massivly outcompete their inefficient literal serfs and sorta begin to shove their feudal, agrarian, economy apart. And they'll be reliant on us for food. (Or at the very least, for surplus. If we go to war, they'd see an instant drop in Quality of life across their population)

 

[Chaos Blade]

[Propose] Return all war brides kidnapped from their homes over the years.
[Propose] Die in a fire
[Propose] Gib unfettered access to Saint Lawrence seaway
[Propose] Seriously, catch fire, halt, and die
[Propose] War reparations in material form. Gold is fine, industrial equipment nicer.
[Propose] See above calls for flame based destruction of Victoria

Click to shrink...

Naw, we need to negotiate in good faith, wait for the tricentenial, unveil the declaration and then we change our national motto "Victoria delenda est"

 

[aceraptor]

Land is a hard no. Anything we gain from them will be near impossible to defend as we don't have a land border.

Better will be banning of Victorian 'aid workers'.

Free access through the water ways is a must. Everything else is secondary.

 

[Chaos Blade]

is it feasible for us to meddle in their civil war? the goal, of course, it s to keep it going for as long as possible, supporting the underdogs until they aint and then switching our support for the other side, using suitable proxies, of course

 

[SneakyWalrus]

You. Lost.

Click to shrink...

Say it Nazi. Say the Line.

"Victoria acknowledges that it has suffered a defeat," he growls. "It acknowledges that the Commonwealth presently has the better of things."

Click to shrink...

*Thread Cheers*

Heh, it feels good to win.

 

[ChairAgainstWall]

Versailles, anyone?

Click to shrink...

I hope not! Imperial Germany didn't get half what they deserved.

Hard cash might not be that good, as what really need can't be bought with just money, rather by barter in which money is one of several considerations.

Versailles 1871 might actually be a positive model, unlike 1919. See, the Prussians in '71 mostly just used the war for a propaganda victory, to unite the Germany behind the Prussian King, and accept him as Emperor. To accomplish this, they stole the territory of Alsace and Lorraine, humiliating the French. I'm thinking Buffalo being acknoledged as being in the Commonwealth sphere of interest (i.e. Annexed). Plus a healthy buffer zone (annexed). And so on.

 

[aceraptor]

Any territorial concessions will likely be a nonstarter for the Vics. They are in a civil war and conceding territory will damage Blackwell's legitimacy. And Buffalo is in the hands of the CMC. We don't want to do anything that may tie us into destroying them ourselves.

 

[Simon_Jester]

Any territorial concessions will likely be a nonstarter for the Vics. They are in a civil war and conceding territory will damage Blackwell's legitimacy. And Buffalo is in the hands of the CMC. We don't want to do anything that may tie us into destroying them ourselves.

Click to shrink...

Agreed to both points. I think we can twist them into accepting a concession of right to interfere outside their territory, but not into ceding territory directly.

Victoria needs to withdraw from New York completely and let us claim some Victorian territory. Maybe lets say 15 to 25 percent at the very least.

Click to shrink...

That's like 40% of their territory, and we don't occupy any of it, nor could we plausibly hope to do so. They won't agree to it.

[Propose] Victoria will give the Commonwealth war reparations in the form of
-[] Gold, silver, and other precious metals.
-[] Industrial material and equipment
-[] Military equipment (I.E. rifles and ammunition)
-[] Boats and ships
-[] Old World artifacts and media
-[] Regular food shipments for the next two years

Click to shrink...

We already have their best boats, they destroyed all their own Old World artifacts and media, and they probably have no food surplus what with the civil war so they could easily spin that last one into us starving their people

Are there any particular areas of Victorian land we want?

Click to shrink...

Not that I could expect to hold, BUT.

We can include an "And STAY OUT!" clause.

@PoptartProdigy

[] [Propose] Victoria will abstain from all belligerent action and troop deployment west of the 80th meridian west longitude
[] [Propose] Victoria will abstain from all belligerent action and troop deployment west of the 81st meridian west longitude
[] [Propose] Victoria will abstain from all belligerent action and troop deployment west of the 82nd meridian west longitude

These are three prospective lines declaring off-limits territory at varying points along Lake Erie. The first is almost all the way to Buffalo, the third is just a little bit east of Leamington and the Lake Erie islands as far as I can tell, and the second is in the middle, about midway between Cleveland, Ohio and Erie, Pennsylvania.

Without a southern boundary to the 'no go' area, this would also block them out of much of the American South, and of course everything west of the Mississippi.

Alternatively, the following:

[] [Propose] Victoria will abstain from all belligerent action and troop deployment in territory north of the Ohio River and west of the 80th meridian west longitude
[] [Propose] Victoria will abstain from all belligerent action and troop deployment in territory north of the Ohio River and west of the 81st meridian west longitude
[] [Propose] Victoria will abstain from all belligerent action and troop deployment in territory north of the Ohio River and west of the 82nd meridian west longitude

Same, but less ambitious and only really locks them out of the Midwest (and, technically, West).

You may want to tweak these, but I'm pretty sure something like this/these should be on the table.

I mean, we proclaimed ourselves Defender of the Midwest. Let's make the Victorians admit that we have, in fact, defended the Midwest.

 

[aceraptor]

Here's a couple of things we could throw in:

[] (Propose) Victoria ceases interference in American successor states with their 'aid workers'.
[] (Propose) Victoria accepts fault for starting a war of aggression against the innocent people of Detroit and Chicago.

 

[Arcus]

Hmm. So the general consensus is that we should be aiming to fuck them over as much as possible now because we have zero faith that they will abide by any of the treaty terms in the long run. And also humiliate them massively, both for domestic consumption and to make them look bad at home and internationally. Aim to dismantle the myth of Victorian invincibility as much as possible.

[Propose] Exchange of captured Victorian prisoners with war brides. Make sure to seed a few agents in there along with as many false plants as possible, both to hide our own real agents in all the noise and to get the snake to eat its own tail, because they are going to be absolutely paranoid about their people being compromised. (Granted, they'll probably seed their own agents in too, but we'll cross that bridge when we get there)
[Propose] War repatriations for starting an unjustified war of aggression (outline that last bit specifically). Make this amount unreasonably high, but stretch it out to about, oh, 20 years or so. Push for as much upfront as possible. Expect that they will default on any payments after the first year. Let them feel good about being able to con us out of 19 years of payments.
[Propose] Demand the transfer of as many historical artefacts and technical/scientific documents as possible. Well, I guess they've probably burned most of these over the years, but stealing back cultural artefacts is a symbolic victory for us.
[Propose] Victoria is to internationally recognize the Commonwealth's sphere of influence over the Great Lakes and that they may only send in aid workers/military personnel to states under our protection (naturally, we have the right to extend protection to any successor states that will accept it) with our explicit approval. Little practical benefit, but maximum humiliation. Not sure if we want to push for them being restricted from sending out aid workers to meddle outright because that's unenforceable on our end.

EDIT:

[Propose] Get Victoria to disavow the Russians very loudly and in no uncertain terms, acknowledge their meddling in American affairs, and expel all Russian diplomatic and military personnel from their borders. Pisses off the Emperor hard and limits his ability to supply overt aid to them. Not sure how feasible this one is.

 

[Professor Vesca]

[x] The secret to negotiation is knowing how to haggle.

[] [PROPOSE] Victoria will lift all restrictions against the Free City of New York that prohibit them from rearming.
[] [PROPOSE] Victoria will grant unrestricted access to the St Lawrence River and access to the Atlantic Ocean.
[] [PROPOSE] Victoria will provide material reparation for their unprovoked aggression, possibly including industrial equipment, weapons, precious metals, fuel, etc.
[] [PROPOSE] Victoria will open themselves to free trade with the commonwealth, particularly in grain.
[] [PROPOSE] Victoria will cease and abolish the institution of slavery. All slaves will be freed immediately, with no compensation to slave owners.
[] [PROPOSE] Victoria will return all war brides abducted during their unwarranted aggressions in the midwest, and will return all prisoners of war to the Commonwealth.
[] [PROPOSE] Victoria will make a radio broadcast announcing their defeat, in a war of naked aggression against Detroit and Chicago to the Great Lakes region.
[] [PROPOSE] Victoria will withdraw all forces south of the St Lawrence River and will not deploy any forces, aid workers, or other agents operating on behalf of their government or receiving aid or instruction from their government to the northern shore of the Great Lakes.

[][MEME] We demand that Blackwell suck on our giant communist dick. In public. We have video cameras.
[][MEME] We demand that Victoria catch fire and then drop dead.

 

[Thebigpieman]

Huh, went to check the status screen and apparently Miami has made some gains. Or is at the very least larger than I remember them being.