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Back to talking tech for a moment. Couple extra dates of first flight:
  • C-130 Hercules cargo aircraft 1954

  • Sikorsky S-31 transport/search and rescue/ASW/utility helicopter 1959

  • Sikorsky S-65/CH-53 family of heavylift helicopters 1964

  • CH-47 Chinook heavylift helicopter 1962

  • Ryan Model 147 Lightning Bug reconaissance and combat UAV 1962

  • B-1A supersonic strategic bomber prototype December 1974



The last one is something of a personal joke, since it's well outside our price range, or indeed need.
More something for Sister Cali than us.
But it is within the capability of a mid-70s techbase to build a B1. Something to keep in mind

Tomorrow we talk cruise missiles.
Yay!
 
The last one is something of a personal joke, since it's well outside our price range, or indeed need.
More something for Sister Cali than us.
But it is within the capability of a mid-70s techbase to build a B1. Something to keep in mind

I think we will need the best we can afford for the inevitable Russian reprisal, so I wouldn't write it off yet.

Btw, @PoptartProdigy, have the Russians figured out how to make their nuclear-powered nuclear missile yet?
 
Back to talking tech for a moment. Couple extra dates of first flight:
  • C-130 Hercules cargo aircraft 1954

  • Sikorsky S-31 transport/search and rescue/ASW/utility helicopter 1959

  • Sikorsky S-65/CH-53 family of heavylift helicopters 1964

  • CH-47 Chinook heavylift helicopter 1962

  • Ryan Model 147 Lightning Bug reconaissance and combat UAV 1962

  • B-1A supersonic strategic bomber prototype December 1974



The last one is something of a personal joke, since it's well outside our price range, or indeed need.
More something for Sister Cali than us.
But it is within the capability of a mid-70s techbase to build a B1. Something to keep in mind

Tomorrow we talk cruise missiles.
Yay!

You should also add fighters.

This is apparently the first American fighter that could exceed Mach 1 in level flight.


First flight in 1950. It can carry AAM's too!
 
Yeah but all those fighters require immense investment in an aeronautics complex. Sweden (to pick a country that we can compare the commonwealth to) for instance did not suddenly decide to build jets, rather when (in the 1940s) it was time to decide whether or not to develop a native aeronautics industry they made the political decision to do so. They then had the engineering know-how to design and large scale industrial complex to actually build these things.

Victoria has systematically wrecked those large scale organisations.

I think the Commonwealth is much better of getting modernised versions of older fighters that might be out there. Like modernised F-16s, whatever remains of the F-35 fleet, or whatever Chinese stuff we can get our paws on. Not first rate stuff, but cheap enough to buy and effective enough to use.

(And really only if the Chinese and/or EU decide to become sugar-daddies can we get anything useful on a modern battlefield).
 
Yeah. We really shouldn't be talking about domestic aircraft production.

Domestic production of armored cars, we can do, but jet fighters are hard to build, in a way that I'm not sure most people really understand. They require very large bulk quantities (as in, tons and tons) of very precisely shaped parts made out of very special materials

I think we will need the best we can afford for the inevitable Russian reprisal, so I wouldn't write it off yet.
The thing to remember is that we have a "1970s tech base" in that the most advanced and impressive things we can do entirely for ourselves are like things that could be done in the 1970s. That's not the same as "we can build anything the US could build in the early 1970s."

In particular, large objects, such as Saturn V moon rockets or B-1 strategic bombers, will require heavy industrial facilities the likes of which the Victorians surely would have sabotaged (and more to the point, assassinated anyone who tried to fix them). For instance, the heavy industrial presses referenced under Old Relics were originally subsidized by the government specifically for the purpose of building certain parts of a military aircraft. Without those facilities, and the rest of an expert aerospace industry, we'd be hard-pressed to duplicate the aircraft.

Likewise for mass production, again because that requires large facilities that would be prime targets for sabotage, since the Russians and Victorians were specifically trying to reduce Chicagoland to a state of economic inefficiency to stop us from building our way out of poverty any time soon.

Btw, @PoptartProdigy, have the Russians figured out how to make their nuclear-powered nuclear missile yet?
To be perfectly honest, I have no idea.
Picture something like Project Pluto. Air gets sucked in the front end of the engine, is heated by a nuclear reactor, and is expelled out the back as something a bit like rocket exhaust. This can in principle be used to propel an aircraft around the sky for days or weeks without refueling. As such, it has many of the advantages of a manned nuclear bomber (you can launch it and have it ready to go with minimal risk of being taken out in a sneak attack, but also call it off if it turns out the nuclear crisis was a horrible misunderstanding), but doesn't have to constantly take off and land from very vulnerable airfields.

Such a design would tend to bypass traditional anti-ballistic-missile defense systems that are intended to shoot down nuclear warheads 'falling' along fixed trajectories after being launched by traditional ICBM-style rockets. It would instead behave more like a high performance jet fighter, with the potential to zig-zag or dodge to evade intercepting defense systems.

Actually a bit like the nuclear cruise missiles you had the Aramaians launch at Tastreya over in DBAE, only with effectively unlimited range and the ability to keep them circling over international waters for weeks at a time like a megaton-range Sword of Damocles that could fall on the enemy at any moment while being virtually impossible to put out of action.

This is technology present-day Russia is now working on, and it's not unlike something the US was working on sixty years ago. The main reason no one's ever done it isn't because it'd be impossible. It's because it'd be a major escalation of nuclear threat capability, and no one really wanted to open that particular drawer on the outside of Pandora's box.
 
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The thing to remember is that we have a "1970s tech base" in that the most advanced and impressive things we can do entirely for ourselves are like things that could be done in the 1970s. That's not the same as "we can build anything the US could build in the early 1970s."

In particular, large objects, such as Saturn V moon rockets or B-1 strategic bombers, will require heavy industrial facilities the likes of which the Victorians surely would have sabotaged (and more to the point, assassinated anyone who tried to fix them). For instance, the heavy industrial presses referenced under Old Relics were originally subsidized by the government specifically for the purpose of building certain parts of a military aircraft. Without those facilities, and the rest of an expert aerospace industry, we'd be hard-pressed to duplicate the aircraft.

Likewise for mass production, again because that requires large facilities that would be prime targets for sabotage, since the Russians and Victorians were specifically trying to reduce Chicagoland to a state of economic inefficiency to stop us from building our way out of poverty any time soon.
To expand on this, the 1975 benchmark is just that; a benchmark. Broadly, you can make at least one of anything built in 1975. There is variance in both directions with regards to scaling that. As Simon notes above, mass and specialty manufacturing are both going to take a big hit. On the other hand, I've established your workhorse 105mm howitzer as the M119, which entered production in '89, because there would have been just so god damned many of the things lying around and they'd be a lesser sabotage target than planes, tanks, and industrial complexes.
Picture something like Project Pluto. Air gets sucked in the front end of the engine, is heated by a nuclear reactor, and is expelled out the back as something a bit like rocket exhaust. This can in principle be used to propel an aircraft around the sky for days or weeks without refueling. As such, it has many of the advantages of a manned nuclear bomber (you can launch it and have it ready to go with minimal risk of being taken out in a sneak attack, but also call it off if it turns out the nuclear crisis was a horrible misunderstanding), but doesn't have to constantly take off and land from very vulnerable airfields.

Such a design would tend to bypass traditional anti-ballistic-missile defense systems that are intended to shoot down nuclear warheads 'falling' along fixed trajectories after being launched by traditional ICBM-style rockets. It would instead behave more like a high performance jet fighter, with the potential to zig-zag or dodge to evade intercepting defense systems.

Actually a bit like the nuclear cruise missiles you had the Aramaians launch at Tastreya over in DBAE, only with effectively unlimited range and the ability to keep them circling over international waters for weeks at a time like a megaton-range Sword of Damocles that could fall on the enemy at any moment while being virtually impossible to put out of action.

This is technology present-day Russia is now working on, and it's not unlike something the US was working on sixty years ago. The main reason no one's ever done it isn't because it'd be impossible. It's because it'd be a major escalation of nuclear threat capability, and no one really wanted to open that particular drawer on the outside of Pandora's box.
Wow; that's horrifying! I am legitimately unsure of whether or not Alex would green-light that one.
 
Wow; that's horrifying! I am legitimately unsure of whether or not Alex would green-light that one.
The main reason to do it is that it gives you a nuclear weapons capability no one on the planet can realistically hope to stop all of, even if they invest hundreds of billions in anti-missile defenses.

The main reason NOT to do it is that it gives you a nuclear weapons capability no one on the planet can reliably hope to stop all of, even if they invest hundreds of billions in anti-missile defenses, and that this makes your continued existence more of a threat.

The best thing to fight back against it would be very large laser defense systems, in my opinion; it's not outside the question that someone could build such a defense grid with near-future technology but they'd need a LOT of infrastructure.
 
Fission jet engines sound like more trouble that they're worth, honestly. The radiation hazard involved would be pretty serious, especially since you're packaging your fissile material inside a convenient air-dispersal unit. The engines would also be highly expensive, and the increased costs of maintenance would probably outweigh the costs of fuel.

As for a fission-powered missile, it has one major problem, off the top of my head: it's a very expensive and highly experimental engine. That's not great when it's powering something that only fires once and has to work when that firing happens. Conventional, well-understood systems are valuable in that context. That sort of principle is why spacecraft have hardware that seems ludicrously outdated by modern standards. The optimization edge you get from upgrading just isn't worth the loss of reliability. You only add it into the system once it's been exhaustively (read: expensively) tested.

If the world was divided and prosperous, I can think of niche uses for nuclear engines. But as-is, I don't see it.
 
You should also add fighters.
This is apparently the first American fighter that could exceed Mach 1 in level flight.
First flight in 1950. It can carry AAM's too!
I'll put in a couple, but not really bothering atm.
F4 Phantom, F16 Falcon, F15 Eagle, F111 Aardvark were pretty much the only US multirole aircraft of the 60s and 70s, and even they will take some time to build up to. And we probably can't afford to operate more than one type of helicopter.

Expendable munitions are arguably much lower hanging fruit than high performance jet fighters.
It's arguably easier to build something that will only work once than something expected to fly several thousand hours.

Victoria has systematically wrecked those large scale organisations.
To be fair, this isn't attempting to build stuff from scratch, and coming up with new solutions, the way Sweden or the US were doing it. We're just trying to rebuild from an existing foundation, hopefully with help.

The Commonwealth's operation of a couple functional F16s and several score piston and turboprops several decades after the fall of the United States suggests there's a foundation to build off. Still need to get logistics lines set up and source workers and tools. But at the very least we should be able to pull local maintenance of 70s-era vintage aircraft.

My belief? We're looking at a five to ten year timeframe for indigenous mass production of aircraft.

Israeli Aerospace Industries took six years to go from founding in 1953 to building the French-designed Fouga Magister jet trainer in 1959. In that time the IAF flew French-built Mirages and fired Israeli missiles. It took roughly eight months to go from the start of the French arms embargo in January 1969 to the first flight of the Mirage 5 derivative Nessher in September 1969, with production aircraft deliveries starting in May 1971.

In the meantime, we'll have to source aircraft externally.
Probably going to need around a hundred tactical aircraft as a minimum requirement, which is a big ask.
Even given the thirtyish F16s we captured in varying states of repair.

Missiles, otoh?
We already build missiles.
And speaking of missiles, I need to send a PM.

EDIT
Bonus:


Yes, that's an AGM-65 Maverick air to surface missile, mounted on a modified Ryan Firebee UAV, itself carried on the wing of a C130.
In the early 70s.
Probably Vietnam.
 
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To expand on this, the 1975 benchmark is just that; a benchmark. Broadly, you can make at least one of anything built in 1975. There is variance in both directions with regards to scaling that. As Simon notes above, mass and specialty manufacturing are both going to take a big hit. On the other hand, I've established your workhorse 105mm howitzer as the M119, which entered production in '89, because there would have been just so god damned many of the things lying around and they'd be a lesser sabotage target than planes, tanks, and industrial complexes.

Wow; that's horrifying! I am legitimately unsure of whether or not Alex would green-light that one.
He has no need to operate one.
Something like that is a weapon you only deploy to guarantee secondstrike capability against an enemy with significant ABM capability. And Imperial Russia has been the superpower for almost half a century.

If anyone was going to deploy something like this in the Lindtopia geopolitical landscape, it would be Australia.
Or Europe. Or China.
 
I'm mostly asking because Putin is working on it in the modern-day. Here are some sources.
You forget the context.

Partly self-aggrandizing nationalist dickwaving for propaganda, partly actual worry about US antiballistic missile weapons development, which involves expenditure on defenses that the Russian state cannot currently match.
Hence the investment in more boom which defenses do not currently exist against.

See also the underwater intercontinental nuclear drone that is alleged to carry a 100 megaton warhead, possibly with a cobalt-60 jacket, that's basically designed to murder coastal cities and contaminate the entire area.

All these things are the investments of a smaller power, meant to warn off a bigger power.
Like a pufferfish, warning off predators.

But in this world, Russia is the superpower. The richest, the biggest, the one with the most economically viable allies.
It has no nation threatening it enough to invest in potentially destablising weapons like this.
If it wants more boom, it'll build more ICBMs and cruise missiles and drown your defenses.
 
Okay if Russia is trying to nuke us anytime in the next like, 30* turns, its rocks fall everyone dies. Like trying to focus on any sort of defense on that level is completely pointless.

Just to be clear, if Russia was willing to court the political and economic consequences of an outright invasion, we are dead. The only reason Burns even attempted this is the assumption that they won't. They will do something, but not that. Now, consider that in the real world, nations are willing to court invasion consequences multiple times (see the modern US) do not throw around nukes.

*As an absurdly, ridiculously generous estimation.
 
Wow; that's horrifying! I am legitimately unsure of whether or not Alex would green-light that one.
The project would have been killed in the Collapse (even if it was only for a short while it still hit Russia), so it'd depend on how much spare cash Alex had lying around for Military R&D while Lindtopia was chestbursting the US. Also, it's almost certainly one of the extra throw away concessions Alex included in his efforts to convince everybody to save the environment "do this super expensive thing and I won't design nukes you can't afford to block".
 
Also, it's almost certainly one of the extra throw away concessions Alex included in his efforts to convince everybody to save the environment "do this super expensive thing and I won't design nukes you can't afford to block".
Not really.

Barring major breakthroughs in the affordability and effectiveness of ABM, noone can defend against a seriousface attack. Not when you need perfect defense. If you have a system that ensures 100% effectiveness against the first fifty nukes, but only 80% effectiveness against the next two hundred, that means that in a strike of 250 warheads, you just got hit by at least forty warheads.

And there aren't very many nations that can afford losing ten cities and survive, let alone forty.
That's why China has kept it's arsenal small thus far. Doesn't need overkill to ruin you as a nation.

And the EU's capitals are all within thirty minutes flight of a hypersonic cruise missile or similar from Moscow anyway, and vice versa. Threatening them with a nuclear-powered cruise missile is not a new threat.
Their defense will be simply to build more nukes of their own, and either put them in subs or mobile launchers.

It's a threat that only makes sense against the US, which is big enough to have delusions of surviving the loss of multiple cities in recognizable shape.
 
Not really.

Barring major breakthroughs in the affordability and effectiveness of ABM, noone can defend against a seriousface attack. Not when you need perfect defense. If you have a system that ensures 100% effectiveness against the first fifty nukes, but only 80% effectiveness against the next two hundred, that means that in a strike of 250 warheads, you just got hit by at least forty warheads.

And there aren't very many nations that can afford losing ten cities and survive, let alone forty.
That's why China has kept it's arsenal small thus far. Doesn't need overkill to ruin you as a nation.

And the EU's capitals are all within thirty minutes flight of a hypersonic cruise missile or similar from Moscow anyway, and vice versa. Threatening them with a nuclear-powered cruise missile is not a new threat.
Their defense will be simply to build more nukes of their own, and either put them in subs or mobile launchers.

It's a threat that only makes sense against the US, which is big enough to have delusions of surviving the loss of multiple cities in recognizable shape.
Literally none of this prevents it from being a development that the EU/Australia/whoever do not want and Alex is willing to give up. Which is the point I made.
 
It's MAD all over again.
Yup.
You can bet Sweden went nuclear as soon as Alexander started nomming on his border states.
IIRC they used to have a nuclear program in the 60s before the US offered them their nuclear umbrella guarantee.
Literally none of this prevents it from being a development that the EU/Australia/whoever do not want and Alex is willing to give up. Which is the point I made.
Why?
It's not more effective against them than the ICBMs and cruisemissiles that already exist, and it doesn't immunize Moscow or St Petersburg or Minsk eating a nuke-tipped missile in return.

It's the equivalent of threatening a soldier in fatigues with an RPG instead of an assault rifle.
He isn't going to be any more impressed, or more willing to surrender; you can't kill him any more dead with that than you could already. And meantime he is pointing his own rifle at your unarmored ass.

You are basically arguing that they'd allow him apply nuclear blackmail.
What stops him using the same threat again?

Nah, Alexander is going to have to apply carrot to get that sort of cooperation, not stick.
 
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@uju32 , you misunderstand the point.

The point is that agreeing NOT to deploy such a weapon system, when one could credibly choose to do so, would be a logical concession to offer in exchange for some other concession in diplomatic negotiations.

It's sort of like how some surmise that one of the main reasons the Soviets bothered trying to place IRBMs in Cuba was because it gave them something to give up in exchange for getting the US's IRBMs out of Turkey.

Now, the amount one could extract from such a concession might not be all that much, but this isn't about "Oh yeah, we'll intimidate you EXTRA HARD now that we have THESE!" It's more like "we recognize that this weapon program is even further destabilizing, China/India/??, and we're open to giving up on the whole idea, and I hope that in recognition of our willingness you're open to extending us some consideration?"
 
If you can't understand why a country doesn't like the idea of their geopolitical opponents putting money into nuclear development regardless of effectiveness then you just don't get geopolitics. It doesn't matter how effective the nuke is, because it's still making the point that Alex is willing to go nuclear. Using your own analogy of threatening someone with an RPG instead of an assault rifle, it's still pulling out a gun and swinging it around.
 
@uju32 , you misunderstand the point.

The point is that agreeing NOT to deploy such a weapon system, when one could credibly choose to do so, would be a logical concession to offer in exchange for some other concession in diplomatic negotiations. It's sort of like how some surmise that one of the main reasons the Soviets bothered trying to place IRBMs in Cuba was because it gave them something to give up in exchange for getting the US's IRBMs out of Turkey.

Now, the amount one could extract from such a concession might not be all that much, but this isn't about "Oh yeah, we'll intimidate you EXTRA HARD now that we have THESE!" It's more like "we recognize that this weapon program is even further destabilizing, China/India/??, and we're open to giving up on the whole idea, and I hope that in recognition of our willingness you're open to extending us some consideration?"
I honestly don't think I am.
Something like this, you're going to have to put a carrot on the table, not a stick. Or at least, not just a stick.

Cuba was Kruschev going "I''ll refrain from posting IRBMs 90 minutes from Key West if you take those Jupiters out of Turkey ".
This is "Invest billions of dollars into environmental programs I dictate or I'll start a weapons development program that might not even work in order to create a capability that doesn't actually change the balance of power."

It's the kind of threat that's actively counterproductive, because it assumes that the other nation wants to stop them spending that money. Money spent into attempting to develop and build a nuclear cruise missile is not going into destabilizing another nationstate, or equipping a couple more divisions of troops.

Or even building a couple more regiments worth of ICBMs. Which are a proven weapon.

Now if they were offering not to deploy some sort of ABM system that neutralized other people's nukes, that would be a carrot.
But the GM has made it clear that anyone trying that by, say, attempting to put a laser satellite network in space, sets off ALL the nukes.
If you can't understand why a country doesn't like the idea of their geopolitical opponents putting money into nuclear development regardless of effectiveness then you just don't get geopolitics. It doesn't matter how effective the nuke is, because it's still making the point that Alex is willing to go nuclear. Using your own analogy of threatening someone with an RPG instead of an assault rifle, it's still pulling out a gun and swinging it around.
Overkill does not actually change how dead a nation is; more spending beyond that falls well into diminishing returns.
And do recall that goading an enemy into excessive military spending that damages their economy, or occupies funding they can't otherwise spend on other things, is in itself a possible endgoal of geopolitics.

Weapons programs are not free, and budgets are not infinite.
Redundant weapon systems serve only to amuse your enemies and give generals a stiffie.

Using your own analogy of threatening someone with an RPG instead of an assault rifle, it's still pulling out a gun and swinging it around.
The modern Russian Federation currently has about 6500 nuclear warheads, with 1800 warheads deployed on ICBMs and cruise missiles, as well as bombs and artillery shells and backpack devices.
At it's peak, the Soviet Union had around 45,000 warheads stockpiled.

Telling a nation you're going to deploy another couple thousand superduper uninterceptable missiles, in the view of those sort of numbers, basically elicits a yawn. It's not like they can shoot down what you already have pointed at them.
Their strategy is to shoot back.

And a nuclear-powered SLAMski does not alter MAD in any way.
 
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