Victoria Falls: A Post-Collapse American Nation Quest [Down With Victoria!]

[4WheelSword]

thread policy Discussion of politics that does not directly relate to the Quest or to Quest votes are banned from hereon out. This thread policy will be enforced by the Moderation team. Do not ignore it.

 

[clockworkchaos]

They certainly live in the lap of luxury, but not fully modern luxury. They purchase their luxury themselves, with tax money. They have certain modern amenities as required to coordinate with and obey their masters, but they are otherwise relatively recognizable to their subjects as Victorians.

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I suspect, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. That the largest luxury they have is people. Perhaps not refered to as servants, specifically, but that in practice (if not slaves in practice). Victoria has bodies to spare, in ways it does not have cash, or technology. Also, I suspect the kind of men who run VIctoria find servants, and the power of commanding them at all times, perhaps more intoxicating than any modern amenity.

 

[Negentropy]

Hey, don't blame Americans for Sergeant Major General, that's a British thing. Y'never seen that great historical document Pirates of Penzance?

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I've heard the song:

 

[Klaus-47]

My brothers and sisters of these United States, let us hold Victoria accountable for their manifold crimes against humanity. Let us re-make this once great country into something better, something stronger, something where the principle of equality between human beings is not just an empty ideal but the bedrock of a society where life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness cannot be stripped from any citizen without ironclad proof, one where people may love and worship without the fear of a knock in night or a mob at the door!

My fellow Americans, lets crush those Russian Quisling fucks properly, and then see about having a few words with their masters.

 

[Simon_Jester]

2. Regarding the lower mississippi. They still have division level formations, they still have ships. If they have done their job properly they ought to still have submissive governments in place in New Orleans and Morgan City (since the Mississippi changed course it would now be the major riverine port in the area).

Oh and as they are a recognised national government, working as a peacekeeper, in co-operation with friendly local government, etc, etc, they could simply charter foreign ships to carry some forces out there. In fact sitting on top of such a position would be a good first deployment of newly raised troops.

And of course since foreign ships would stop at both sites, well, some of the goods dropped off for "transhipment" might just happen to be supplies for the garrison. And attempting to interfere with this trade, well, the government owning those foreign ships might be quite miffed and have cause to do something about it.

Thus Russia can help the Victorians get into position, resupply them, and grant them something of a shield from attack, and all without immense amounts of deniability: After all they are just carrying on trade, there's not even a single polite young man on the ground just perfectly ordinary merchant ships. This also means that as the Victorians recover they are in a good position to continue choking off Commonwealth trade.

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Well, right now they are very, very short on division-scale formations capable of mobilization. All they have is the CMC mechanized divisions, and militia columns.

The CMC divisions are going to be badly needed to secure the homeland. They could dispatch large CMC forces to block the Lower Mississippi, but it'd be compounding an existing gamble pretty hard. If Miami or Mexico sees an opening, or hell even if WE see an opening, they're screwed and lose yet another precious force. One they very much need to keep right now, because their New Model Army is likely to be equipped to standards more closely resembling those of the old CMC divisions if they've learned anything from this war. The Waffen CMC units are the only local source of trainers on the equipment they're going to need.

The militia is undisciplined and effectively untrained. Given the predictable consequences of that, if they try to send the militia to the Lower Mississippi, after news of their defeat at Detroit... Well, my prediction is, they're going to end up at war with every black person in the Deep South sooner or later. Even if there's no organized polity bigger than a city-state down there, that's not a fight they can reliably win as they are now. Not with masses of 0/5 troops against a populace that hates them and wants them to fail, even if it's afraid of them.

They will, in other words, need to eat that sandwich before they can do a good job of this. It's not impossible, it's just hard, because they can choose between mobilizing a tiny force that is tough but vulnerable to the winds of fortune and badly needed at home, or a large force that is effectively untrained and likely to get into trouble.

ANOTHER General?

Gotta catch em all huh?

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Well, we're so far two for fourteen on bagging the whole set. One is still in reach, one got away, and ten died in place.

While that message Burns sent out at the end could be any number of things, the theory that I support is that he sent it out in hope that somehow, someway it would reach some remnant of the government continuing itself somewhere. Sort of in the same way a lone survivor from some event, such as a shipwreck or a hurricane, would continue to send out messages in the hope that someone picks it up.

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I do very much hope that I find out what it was about some day, yes.

Is that a typo?

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Schultz is not a rare name in the Midwest.

It's pretty likely we have multiple soldiers with the last name Burns, Johnson, Goldblum, and so on, too. Odds are, most if not all of them are no relation.

I wonder what the terms (if any) will be like - we can't push the Vicks for much or Russia will get involved but they can't ask us for anything. Probably a stalemate that advantages us slightly. Hopefully, we can force them to pay out of their nose for their POWs.

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I'm hoping for terms along the lines outlined in Goldblum's interview with Barack Williams. The Victorians agree to an "AND STAY OUT!" clause for the Midwest for some reasonable definition of "the Midwest" *, and we exchange POWs.

The reasonable definition would look something like, oh, "everything north of such-and-such and west of the 80th or 81st meridian west latitude;" the 80th meridian puts Cleveland in Victoria's sphere of influence, the 81st doesn't. The 82nd meridian would be almost all the way to Buffalo.

Other than that handful of pilots, though... I'm not sure they'd HAVE any POWs from this war. Unless the Victorians air-freighted them out, which seems unlikely, any soldiers that were capture in their locally successful offensives would have stayed in theater. I'm sure the Viks could have captured at least a few Commonwealthers at Leamington or on the Raisin, but given everything that happened after, they wouldn't have stayed captured- either killed or liberated.

Oh oh oh I had an idea.

If the Victorians grimly admit they don't have any of our people taken prisoner...

Shoutout to our West Coast friends.

Commonwealther: "Well, then. We'll exchange Victorian prisoners for anyone on this list." [dumps a big stack of notebooks on the desk]

Vik, reading: "These are... all women..." [brow furrows]

Commonwealther: "This is our list of captives taken by forces acting under Victorian direction during the Pacific War."

 

[clockworkchaos]

I'm hoping for terms along the lines outlined in Goldblum's interview with Barack Williams. The Victorians agree to an "AND STAY OUT!" clause for the Midwest for some reasonable definition of "the Midwest" *, and we exchange POWs.

The reasonable definition would look something like, oh, "everything north of such-and-such and west of the 80th or 81st meridian west latitude;" the 80th meridian puts Cleveland in Victoria's sphere of influence, the 81st doesn't. The 82nd meridian would be almost all the way to Buffalo.

Other than that handful of pilots, though... I'm not sure they'd HAVE any POWs from this war. Unless the Victorians air-freighted them out, which seems unlikely, any soldiers that were capture in their locally successful offensives would have stayed in theater. I'm sure the Viks could have captured at least a few Commonwealthers at Leamington or on the Raisin, but given everything that happened after, they wouldn't have stayed captured- either killed or liberated.

Oh oh oh I had an idea.

If the Victorians grimly admit they don't have any of our people taken prisoner...

Shoutout to our West Coast friends.

Commonwealther: "Well, then. We'll exchange Victorian prisoners for anyone on this list." [dumps a big stack of notebooks on the desk]

Vik, reading: "These are... all women..." [brow furrows]

Commonwealther: "This is our list of captives taken by forces acting under Victorian direction during the Pacific War."

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As I said, I suspect they won't agree to any ceasefire. We don't really have the leverage, and agreeing to one is admitting they lost (to other parts of US), rather than letting it be a "fighting still ongoing" claim. Though if we can get one, by all means.

I'm in agreement that they likely have none of our prisoners. On the prisoner exchange, I'm of two minds. Mind one says, yes, good thing to do, good PR, good for friendship with our hopefully new big sister*.

On the other hand.

Right now Victoria views war brides as an expensive luxury for the army. Offering prisoners for them tells them that this is something they can use. I'm not sure I want them to start viewing war brides as a useful resource to have on hand.

*Man there is a part of me that is worrying with fear that poptart is giggling at us secure in the knowledge the California's plans will be discovered. Part of me hopes we can't get a prisoner exchange, if only so we can keep the people most likely to realize the sabatoge impirsoned until California revolts. I mean we took the minimum option so hopefully we are safe, but...

 

[Simon_Jester]

How many old US units (or their descendants) come back into the fold may also be affected by our level of Leigitmancy.

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I'm keeping this misspelling.

My Little Revivalist: Legitimacy is Magic.

I don't think we'll be doing negotiations. I mean, there's really nothing to negotiate. Both our end goals are the complete dismantling of the other nation. And since neither of us has any trust whatsoever for the other, any peace deal we sign isn't going to be worth the paper it's written on.

Unless someone else intervenes forcefully, I'm pretty sure the most we'll be getting is an unofficial ceasefire.

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Victoria might want an official ceasefire under these circumstances.

I mean, they'll break it. And they won't honor it seriously. But they might want it in the vague hope that it means WE won't try to duplicate the Buffalo Raid or otherwise screw with them.

I really hope that any perceptions of the Commonwealth becoming a Delian League, America style gets solved before Victoria starts hammering on that.

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What's wrong with that perception? If anything I would think that would encourage more to join if they were worried about losing their independence entirely.

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The Delian League was a 'league' set up by Athens to extort tribute from many other Greek city-states to help Athens maintain a pre-eminent navy... which it duly used to crush any of the many many rebellions by the other Delian League city-states. It was, in short, a fancy name for "the Athenian Empire."

It would be bad for the Commonwealth to develop a reputation as "the Chicagoan Empire."

I know he and I have had our disagreements in the past, but I'm just going to come out and say it.

@kilopi505 is right here. Completely and unambiguously right.

...

Why is a LT X higher than a Major X?

Weird colonials... /s

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Because if you go back to Old Times (like 'Louis XIV' old), "lieutenant general" means "guy who holds (tenant) the general's job instead (lieu) when the general is not available." That is to say, the deputy assistant general, who perforce is only one step down in rank from the general himself.

Whereas "major general" is shortened from, as noted "sergeant major general," meaning "guy who is responsible for certain aspects of the good order of the troops of the unit as a whole," a position that used to be... floaty... in rank, back in the days when the officer/noncom divide wasn't as firm.

Great... what's next? Corporal Captain?

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Actually, that sort of was a thing. There used to be a position for "the guy who holds (tenant) the captain's job instead (lieu) when the captain is not available."

They called him a "lieutenant captain." Used to be a rank above 'ensign' (flagbearer) and below 'captain' in a lot of militaries.

Then they just called guys with that rank "lieutenants," since they weren't mistaken for "lieutenant colonels" or "lieutenant generals" very often.

"Lieutenant" didn't start out as a rank. It started out as an adjective modifying other ranks. That's why it appears three times at widely separate levels on a modern table of ranks.

I suspect, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. That the largest luxury they have is people. Perhaps not refered to as servants, specifically, but that in practice (if not slaves in practice). Victoria has bodies to spare, in ways it does not have cash, or technology. Also, I suspect the kind of men who run VIctoria find servants, and the power of commanding them at all times, perhaps more intoxicating than any modern amenity.

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You are almost certainly absolutely correct.

This is also, @Norseman , likely to be a way in which the material conditions of Victorian leadership differ from those of East German or Soviet leadership. East German and Soviet culture were overtly egalitarian, dismissive of and even aggressive towards the idea of one person being the master or servant of another.

Victorian culture, to put it mildly, is not.

This may also be a draw to Victorian tourist resorts (e.g. ski slopes in Vermont, around Niagara Falls, probably some others in upstate New York). The amenities, even in places Victorians deliberately doll up to attract foreign tourists, aren't impressive. But the service is really something. And I'm not just saying "the service" as a euphemism for "sex slaves." I mean, yes, that too, but also just the waiters and bellhops and so on.

I suspect that's one of the ways Victorians draw in wealthy foreign tourists. Nice scenery, really good service...

[figure-ground inversion between visiting Japanese millionaire and the staff at the resort he's relaxing at]

...because those servants are terrified de facto slaves from a country whose standard of living is Fourth World level, and this job may be the only thing that keeps their family alive.

As I said, I suspect they won't agree to any ceasefire. We don't really have the leverage, and agreeing to one is admitting they lost (to other parts of US), rather than letting it be a "fighting still ongoing" claim. Though if we can get one, by all means.

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I share your suspicion, but consider it uncertain. Could go either way.

Having their army get chewed up like this must be terrifying for them. Their state needs that army. In the long run it cannot exist, as it is now, without an army constantly roaming the rest of North America and pillaging all potential competitors. And we just took every individual man in that army of a hundred thousand or more men, and killed them all, except for the (at most) single digit percentage that are now captives in our hands.

Right now, I bet there are a lot of Victorian politicians who think the typical Commonwealth Army soldier is ten feet tall and bulletproof. They are trying very VERY hard not to let it show where anyone can see them, of course- to be a Victorian politician is to live among cannibals.

But they have no idea what we can and cannot do- their entire battleplan was clearly based on ignorance and incomprehension of our capabilities. We are perhaps the only threat, in all their history since the founding of their nation out of the old United States' bleeding flank, to stage an offensive against Victoria. We punched them in the nose, and we got away with it clean. Then we slaughtered their whole army.

How do they know what we can do to them next?

They can't admit it, but they have to be afraid right now. No man truly incapable of understanding 'I am overmatched by this threat' could rise to power within a state with a secret police force as brutal as the CMC is.

So it could go either way.

I'm in agreement that they likely have none of our prisoners. On the prisoner exchange, I'm of two minds. Mind one says, yes, good thing to do, good PR, good for friendship with our hopefully new big sister*.

On the other hand.

Right now Victoria views war brides as an expensive luxury for the army. Offering prisoners for them tells them that this is something they can use. I'm not sure I want them to start viewing war brides as a useful resource to have on hand.

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You are not wrong.

It may not be something we actually DO.

But I hope you will agree that there is a certain beauty to the idea.

 

[clockworkchaos]

You are almost certainly absolutely correct.

This is also, @Norseman , likely to be a way in which the material conditions of Victorian leadership differ from those of East German or Soviet leadership. East German and Soviet culture were overtly egalitarian, dismissive of and even aggressive towards the idea of one person being the master or servant of another.

Victorian culture, to put it mildly, is not.

This may also be a draw to Victorian tourist resorts (e.g. ski slopes in Vermont, around Niagara Falls, probably some others in upstate New York). The amenities, even in places Victorians deliberately doll up to attract foreign tourists, aren't impressive. But the service is really something. And I'm not just saying "the service" as a euphemism for "sex slaves." I mean, yes, that too, but also just the waiters and bellhops and so on.

I suspect that's one of the ways Victorians draw in wealthy foreign tourists. Nice scenery, really good service...

[figure-ground inversion between visiting Japanese millionaire and the staff at the resort he's relaxing at]

...because those servants are terrified de facto slaves from a country whose standard of living is Fourth World level, and this job may be the only thing that keeps their family alive.

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Is suspect the go for a 'charmingly rustic' feel. There is a really good dark omake of a tourist writing his review of Victoria resorts. Talking about their service, and how good it is, and it's the only proper way to enjoy nature, bemoaning the service in their own country.

(Perhaps Japanese, but I suspect that there are plenty of other wealthy individuals from countries less friendly to VIctoria who consider such diplomatic scuffles no reason not to enjoy their vacations).

I share your suspicion, but consider it uncertain. Could go either way.

Having their army get chewed up like this must be terrifying for them. Their state needs that army. In the long run it cannot exist, as it is now, without an army constantly roaming the rest of North America and pillaging all potential competitors. And we just took every individual man in that army of a hundred thousand or more men, and killed them all, except for the (at most) single digit percentage that are now captives in our hands.

Right now, I bet there are a lot of Victorian politicians who think the typical Commonwealth Army soldier is ten feet tall and bulletproof. They are trying very VERY hard not to let it show where anyone can see them, of course- to be a Victorian politician is to live among cannibals.

But they have no idea what we can and cannot do- their entire battleplan was clearly based on ignorance and incomprehension of our capabilities. We are perhaps the only threat, in all their history since the founding of their nation out of the old United States' bleeding flank, to stage an offensive against Victoria. We punched them in the nose, and we got away with it clean. Then we slaughtered their whole army.

How do they know what we can do to them next?

They can't admit it, but they have to be afraid right now. No man truly incapable of understanding 'I am overmatched by this threat' could rise to power within a state with a secret police force as brutal as the CMC is.

So it could go either way.

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I hope you are right in this. But I suspect the choice is in the CMCs hands, and they may be less inclined.

You are not wrong.

It may not be something we actually DO.

But I hope you will agree that there is a certain beauty to the idea.

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And the beauty of it is why I consider it, risks aside.

On this thought. I suspect that they took warbrides from more than just California. It may only place they acknowledge they did and every one is considered to be from "Azania", or perhaps not, and the Victoria freely admit that they "rescues her from down south. Couldn't have such a beauty surrounded by such ugliness". If so, I wonder if any came from our Territory, or Chicago, or Toledo. If so, might be safer to ask for those, as I'm also worrying they might be wondering why we would care about California when they are their allies, not ours.

 

[EternalStruggle]

But they have no idea what we can and cannot do- their entire battleplan was clearly based on ignorance and incomprehension of our capabilities. We are perhaps the only threat, in all their history since the founding of their nation out of the old United States' bleeding flank, to stage an offensive against Victoria. We punched them in the nose, and we got away with it clean. Then we slaughtered their whole army.

Click to shrink...

The first generation of the Victorian army, their original leadership, was mostly ex-US Army and Marine Corp soldiers who, in at least some way, knew their shit beyond just having Training 3. But beyond those defectors and the not insignificant knowledge they gave to their forces, knowledge tainted by the fact it was mostly Fourth Generation malarkey, what wars have Victoria fought? Not Rumford, Victoria.

Pretty much, fighting one under-trained zero logistics US Army division over 40 years ago. Inordinate amounts of domestic terrorism back before the NC was a thing. Suppression of their own people and sweeping through disorganised mobs. Keeping civilisation in the surrounding area collapsed via force of numbers and organisation.

They invaded Boston, and... put down rioters and captured UN aid workers. Not exactly difficult, just evil. Rumford nuked Atlanta, but the rest of Victoria didn't have much to do with that. Cascadia, again, just Rumford. The Coastal Force flailed at some Mexican pirates, headed by guess who, but that's the navy and they probably didn't do that much actual fighting even then. Then, in their second major engagement, we saw Victorian leaders once again taking to the field against the Pacific Republic, but in command of mercenaries and not their own troops.

And then in the following 28 years they did more suppression.

So, again, major Victorian military engagements involving their still living leaders: 2. With their troops: 1. And that one was the easiest of easy mode wins, pretty much.

Victorian gets into very few fights that are worth naming as such, and while Rumford hopped around doing a bunch of stuff, most of that was smuggling nukes into places and commanding people to follow his utterly dumbfuck doctrine.

The fact Victoria has no clue how to prosecute a real war shouldn't be surprising, considering how little they've actually fought.

 

[Libandlearn]

On this thought. I suspect that they took warbrides from more than just California. It may only place they acknowledge they did and every one is considered to be from "Azania", or perhaps not, and the Victoria freely admit that they "rescues her from down south. Couldn't have such a beauty surrounded by such ugliness". If so, I wonder if any came from our Territory, or Chicago, or Toledo. If so, might be safer to ask for those, as I'm also worrying they might be wondering why we would care about California when they are their allies, not ours.

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One way to ask for California specific people, and more importantly Pacific War specific people, might be to lean into Burns's (mythological) role in the war. This way it makes the exchange about the Commonwealth interested in Commonwealth interests and Commonwealth failures rather than California's.

Though doing that is probably still too clever for its own good anyway.

 

[Simon_Jester]

The first generation of the Victorian army, their original leadership, was mostly ex-US Army and Marine Corp soldiers who, in at least some way, knew their shit beyond just having Training 3. But beyond those defectors and the not insignificant knowledge they gave to their forces, knowledge tainted by the fact it was mostly Fourth Generation malarkey, what wars have Victoria fought? Not Rumford, Victoria.

Pretty much, fighting one under-trained zero logistics US Army division over 40 years ago. Inordinate amounts of domestic terrorism back before the NC was a thing. Suppression of their own people and sweeping through disorganised mobs. Keeping civilisation in the surrounding area collapsed via force of numbers and organisation.

They invaded Boston, and... put down rioters and captured UN aid workers. Not exactly difficult, just evil. Rumford nuked Atlanta, but the rest of Victoria didn't have much to do with that. Cascadia, again, just Rumford. The Coastal Force flailed at some Mexican pirates, headed by guess who, but that's the navy and they probably didn't do that much actual fighting even then. Then, in their second major engagement, we saw Victorian leaders once again taking to the field against the Pacific Republic, but in command of mercenaries and not their own troops.

And then in the following 28 years they did more suppression.

So, again, major Victorian military engagements involving their still living leaders: 2. With their troops: 1. And that one was the easiest of easy mode wins, pretty much.

Victorian gets into very few fights that are worth naming as such, and while Rumford hopped around doing a bunch of stuff, most of that was smuggling nukes into places and commanding people to follow his utterly dumbfuck doctrine.

The fact Victoria has no clue how to prosecute a real war shouldn't be surprising, considering how little they've actually fought.

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I am in full agreement.

And it bears remembering that this is why the Victorian leaders are likely to be afraid right now.

Just as Chicago isn't truly, non-metaphorically a "Machine State," Victoria is not truly a "Machine State." Not even if we tend to view them as this vast malignant engine. Its tools of oppression give it phenomenal ability to ignore a defeat and keep going, yes... but its leaders are men. They feel the same gamut of emotions that are found among normal men, or at least among normal men with a higher-than-average leavening of psychopaths and sociopaths.

And even psychopaths and sociopaths are capable of feeling fear, when the weapon they have wielded to good effect for a generation and a half abruptly shatters in their hand, leaving them alone and unarmed in the face of a vengeful continent.

One way to ask for California specific people, and more importantly Pacific War specific people, might be to lean into Burns's (mythological) role in the war. This way it makes the exchange about the Commonwealth interested in Commonwealth interests and Commonwealth failures rather than California's.

Though doing that is probably still too clever for its own good anyway though.

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Burns, based on the history implied by his meeting with Ms. Steele, would very much like to do this, I think.

 

[clockworkchaos]

One way to ask for California specific people, and more importantly Pacific War specific people, might be to lean into Burns's (mythological) role in the war. This way it makes the exchange about the Commonwealth interested in Commonwealth interests and Commonwealth failures rather than California's.

Though it's probably still too clever for its own good anyway.

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Honestly that actually not a bad idea. Even keeps them from deciding random ones would be valuable as this makes the exchange about Burn's failures. (and I suspect Burns overriding good military strategy for the whims off a leader would be something they would believe)

 

[PoptartProdigy]

I've kind of been eyeballing dates, and somebody elsewhere called me out for a timeline. Looking over what I wrote, these times do not work, even presuming an incredibly early springtime melt of Lake Erie. I have updated dates, where applicable. In particular, instead of mid-May, it is now May 31.

 

[fasquardon]

Burns stares out into the inky blackness of the night. Somewhere ahead of him lies the Lake, and the last Victorian Army division anywhere in the world. The rest are scattered, dead, dying, or captured.

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Wait... Their whole army is almost completely annihilated? And the last remaining experienced units are sat on the Eire islands waiting to be slaughtered?

What the hell are they smoking?

Also, this completely changes my perspectives on the impact this defeat will have on Victoria. I thought they'd lost around 1/4th to 1/2 of their army. A defeat this big will not only be impossible to hide as just "some divisions are have gone on crusade in the middle east", it's also a really painful demographic hit. Especially if they are as de-industrialized as they seem.

If the bulk of their economy is tourist traps and agriculture, then the civilian economy losing good workers to the military is really going to hurt, since in a low-productivity economy there's just no slack to lose.

And if the KIA ratio is as high as it seems, then we've just inflicted WW1 level casualties on Victoria. The losses of 4 years of industrial warfare replicated in only a few weeks. That's gonna be pretty traumatic sociologically, even if the CMC can keep a lid on things. They'll have a hole in their demographics for generations after this as the losses of the battle of Detroit echo down the generations.

Oh oh oh I had an idea.

If the Victorians grimly admit they don't have any of our people taken prisoner...

Shoutout to our West Coast friends.

Commonwealther: "Well, then. We'll exchange Victorian prisoners for anyone on this list." [dumps a big stack of notebooks on the desk]

Vik, reading: "These are... all women..." [brow furrows]

Commonwealther: "This is our list of captives taken by forces acting under Victorian direction during the Pacific War."

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How long ago was the "Azanian" war now? Let's consider that many of these women will have been forced to have children - sons as well as daughters - and though they've been imprisoned in an abusive system, many will still have found friends and people to love.

Can you see the Victorian leadership letting these women go with their families? I certainly can't. And even for those for whom rescue wasn't a new nightmare, they'd still need to be quickly re-intergrated within a supportive social structure to be able to start the process of mental healing. The history of the treatment of returned veterans and PoWs from lost wars does not make me confident that the Commonwealth or California could provide a remotely adequate supportive environment. My own sense is the best thing we can do for these people is to crush Victoria completely as soon as possible.

even presuming an incredibly early springtime melt of Lake Erie.

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Um. Even if Alexander has been able to lead the world to do some pretty aggressive (and near magically successful) geoengineering, the world will be much warmer on average than it is now in 2019.

fasquardon

 

[aceraptor]

Wait... Their whole army is almost completely annihilated? And the last remaining experienced units are sat on the Eire islands waiting to be slaughtered?

What the hell are they smoking?

Also, this completely changes my perspectives on the impact this defeat will have on Victoria. I thought they'd lost around 1/4th to 1/2 of their army. A defeat this big will not only be impossible to hide as just "some divisions are have gone on crusade in the middle east", it's also a really painful demographic hit. Especially if they are as de-industrialized as they seem.

If the bulk of their economy is tourist traps and agriculture, then the civilian economy losing good workers to the military is really going to hurt, since in a low-productivity economy there's just no slack to lose.

And if the KIA ratio is as high as it seems, then we've just inflicted WW1 level casualties on Victoria. The losses of 4 years of industrial warfare replicated in only a few weeks. That's gonna be pretty traumatic sociologically, even if the CMC can keep a lid on things. They'll have a hole in their demographics for generations after this as the losses of the battle of Detroit echo down the generations.

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Uh, yes? This has been apparent from the beginning. The Vics sent their entire army minus two Waffen SS CMC divisions. Except those two CMC divisions and the militia forces at home, this is Victoria's entire army.

Which we've basically exterminated with at best single digit percentage captured.

 

[Chronic]

Also, this completely changes my perspectives on the impact this defeat will have on Victoria. I thought they'd lost around 1/4th to 1/2 of their army. A defeat this big will not only be impossible to hide as just "some divisions are have gone on crusade in the middle east", it's also a really painful demographic hit. Especially if they are as de-industrialized as they seem.

If the bulk of their economy is tourist traps and agriculture, then the civilian economy losing good workers to the military is really going to hurt, since in a low-productivity economy there's just no slack to lose.

And if the KIA ratio is as high as it seems, then we've just inflicted WW1 level casualties on Victoria. The losses of 4 years of industrial warfare replicated in only a few weeks. That's gonna be pretty traumatic sociologically, even if the CMC can keep a lid on things. They'll have a hole in their demographics for generations after this as the losses of the battle of Detroit echo down the generations.

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Victorias army is tiny in comparison to their demographics. What they lost is what they could comfortably support, not total war levels of mobilisation. From what OP said they have a population of "tens of millions", and they only lost something between 100.000 and 200.000 men here. Painful, but not crippling.

I speculate that based on pop numbers that Victoria was running on, what, 5% of GDP devoted to their military? They were not taking us seriously at all.

 

[Chaos Blade]

Wait... Their whole army is almost completely annihilated? And the last remaining experienced units are sat on the Eire islands waiting to be slaughtered?

What the hell are they smoking?

Also, this completely changes my perspectives on the impact this defeat will have on Victoria. I thought they'd lost around 1/4th to 1/2 of their army. A defeat this big will not only be impossible to hide as just "some divisions are have gone on crusade in the middle east", it's also a really painful demographic hit. Especially if they are as de-industrialized as they seem.

If the bulk of their economy is tourist traps and agriculture, then the civilian economy losing good workers to the military is really going to hurt, since in a low-productivity economy there's just no slack to lose.

And if the KIA ratio is as high as it seems, then we've just inflicted WW1 level casualties on Victoria. The losses of 4 years of industrial warfare replicated in only a few weeks. That's gonna be pretty traumatic sociologically, even if the CMC can keep a lid on things. They'll have a hole in their demographics for generations after this as the losses of the battle of Detroit echo down the generations.



How long ago was the "Azanian" war now? Let's consider that many of these women will have been forced to have children - sons as well as daughters - and though they've been imprisoned in an abusive system, many will still have found friends and people to love.

Can you see the Victorian leadership letting these women go with their families? I certainly can't. And even for those for whom rescue wasn't a new nightmare, they'd still need to be quickly re-intergrated within a supportive social structure to be able to start the process of mental healing. The history of the treatment of returned veterans and PoWs from lost wars does not make me confident that the Commonwealth or California could provide a remotely adequate supportive environment. My own sense is the best thing we can do for these people is to crush Victoria completely as soon as possible.



Um. Even if Alexander has been able to lead the world to do some pretty aggressive (and near magically successful) geoengineering, the world will be much warmer on average than it is now in 2019.

fasquardon

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They do have two divisions worth of Waffen-CMC, but yeah, they are up the shit creek, Toledo just took a nice chunk of their reminding regulars and what is left is in islands we can plaster with arty at our leisure. those troops are more or less dead, the question is how much hurt they cost us.
Well, there are also the "militia" units, but those are 0/5 quality. Though I am sure some of those are going to be labeled as regulars pdq, but it is going to be "regulars" in name only

 

[Chimeraguard]

Victorias army is tiny in comparison to their demographics. What they lost is what they could comfortably support, not total war levels of mobilisation. From what OP said they have a population of "tens of millions", and they only lost something between 100.000 and 200.000 men here. Painful, but not crippling.

Click to shrink...

It's been noted in discord by Poptart that Victoria's army is about as large as they can manage without suffering from other issues, due to their agrarian economy.

This army heading your way is their regular army. They can't actually mobilize a much more significant slice of their population thanks to their agrarian economy.

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Victoria will probably be on life support in the aftermath of this battle, if you stack wipe them. They are capable of replacing their army, but...everything that they are still exists. Doing it quickly and non-problematically would be near-impossible without extensive assistance.

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Either Victoria will have some major internal issues to deal with, or Russia is going to have to really up how much support they give (and that issue will probably get worse once the NCR declares independence.)

 

[PoptartProdigy]

Wait... Their whole army is almost completely annihilated? And the last remaining experienced units are sat on the Eire islands waiting to be slaughtered?

What the hell are they smoking?

Also, this completely changes my perspectives on the impact this defeat will have on Victoria. I thought they'd lost around 1/4th to 1/2 of their army. A defeat this big will not only be impossible to hide as just "some divisions are have gone on crusade in the middle east", it's also a really painful demographic hit. Especially if they are as de-industrialized as they seem.

If the bulk of their economy is tourist traps and agriculture, then the civilian economy losing good workers to the military is really going to hurt, since in a low-productivity economy there's just no slack to lose.

And if the KIA ratio is as high as it seems, then we've just inflicted WW1 level casualties on Victoria. The losses of 4 years of industrial warfare replicated in only a few weeks. That's gonna be pretty traumatic sociologically, even if the CMC can keep a lid on things. They'll have a hole in their demographics for generations after this as the losses of the battle of Detroit echo down the generations.

Click to shrink...

Of the force of perhaps as many as 150,000 men that came after you, you have destroyed as a combat-capable force all but ten thousand of it, that last ten thousand being the division making ready on the Erie Islands.

The Leamington force was five infantry divisions of 10,000 men each, all but a hundred per division frontline infantry. They had significant numbers of wounded, but those wounded overwhelmingly were evacuated, were killed by their comrades when they could not be evacuated, were killed by the impressed and abused local women used as nurses once their comrades did evacuate, were killed by frustrated Commonwealth soldiers rather than captured, were killed by Commonwealth soldiers who were trying to capture them in suicide-by-soldier, committed suicide outright, or were actually, legitimately captured. That last category is by far the smallest. That said, you suspect that a majority of the force actually managed to disperse and rout into the countryside...because of the sudden surge of desperate calls for assistance as said countryside smells blood and rises, en masse, to start ripping them to shreds. All while the Vicks are trying to hike overland hundreds of miles through a shattered landscape, while carrying wounded and starving, with almost no ammunition left in their guns.

The VAF was captured in its entirety either from you sweeping up pilots who ditched in the Lake, or by Toledo when they stormed Toledo Express Airport. I'm completely unlearned in how much manpower it takes to run a huge fleet of Cessnas and 100 F-16s. Call it five thousand for now? I'm sure somebody will correct me.

Then there was the southern force. Five infantry divisions, one tank division, one mechanized infantry division with -- *gasp* -- actual support staff. At least seventy thousand, possibly more. You actually captured a significant portion of this, albeit mostly because the Vicks didn't have time or leisure to purge the field, "hospitals." The majority of your prisoners came from this force.

Finally, the Navy, which was obliterated. A few thousand extra.

Not WWI-era casualties. Just 100% casualties. The Victorians will get back POWs you ship home, and possibly the haggard survivors of the Leamington force.

 

[fasquardon]

Victorias army is tiny in comparison to their demographics. What they lost is what they could comfortably support, not total war levels of mobilisation. From what OP said they have a population of "tens of millions", and they only lost something between 100.000 and 200.000 men here. Painful, but not crippling.

I suspect based on pop numbers that Victoria was running on, what, 5% of GDP devoted to their military? They were not taking us seriously at all.

Click to shrink...

100,000 to 200,000 men lost out of a home population of something like 30 million (I really don't understand how they maintain that with their Khemer Rouge style policies, but that's WOGM, so WOGM it is) is really damn brutal. I was over-estimating it when I said it would be a WW1-level KIA ratio though. We're more talking Napoleonic Wars level of losses. But for a society that is mainly agrarian, that's still gonna produce nasty economic aftershocks. And the trauma to society of losing 150,000ish sons, husbands, brothers and fathers at once will not be small. Especially since Victoria has apparently never faced serious military casualties before.

They do have two divisions worth of Waffen-CMC, but yeah, they are up the shit creek, Toledo just took a nice chunk of their reminding regulars and what is left is in islands we can plaster with arty at our leisure. those troops are more or less dead, the question is how much hurt they cost us.
Well, there are also the "militia" units, but those are 0/5 quality. Though I am sure some of those are going to be labeled as regulars pdq, but it is going to be "regulars" in name only

Click to shrink...

So Victoria will have an army of RINOs?

The VAF was captured in its entirety either from you sweeping up pilots who ditched in the Lake, or by Toledo when they stormed Toledo Express Airport. I'm completely unlearned in how much manpower it takes to run a huge fleet of Cessnas and 100 F-16s. Call it five thousand for now? I'm sure somebody will correct me.

Click to shrink...

Probably closer to 10,000 if they are running things remotely like they should (which I think they have to for those F-16s to fly at all).

fasquardon

 

[Chimeraguard]

That said, you suspect that a majority of the force actually managed to disperse and rout into the countryside...because of the sudden surge of desperate calls for assistance as said countryside smells blood and rises, en masse, to start ripping them to shreds. All while the Vicks are trying to hike overland hundreds of miles through a shattered landscape, while carrying wounded and starving, with almost no ammunition left in their guns.

Click to shrink...

Speaking of this, with the battle now over, is it safe to inform us how far the Buffalo relief column got before turning back? I'd like to write an omake on the woes of the Leamington force's attempt to get home, and I'd like to at least mention the Buffalo Militia's attempt at resupply.

 

[PoptartProdigy]

100,000 to 200,000 men lost out of a home population of something like 30 million (I really don't understand how they maintain that with their Khemer Rouge style policies, but that's WOGM, so WOGM it is) is really damn brutal. I was over-estimating it when I said it would be a WW1-level KIA ratio though. We're more talking Napoleonic Wars level of losses. But for a society that is mainly agrarian, that's still gonna produce nasty economic aftershocks. And the trauma to society of losing 150,000ish sons, husbands, brothers and fathers at once will not be small. Especially since Victoria has apparently never faced serious military casualties before.

Click to shrink...

I'm fairly sure that Victoria's territory barely has thirty million today today, so they absolutely don't have that. If we assume that their stupidity caused high-end Year Zero casualties -- 25%, for the record -- assume that they got 50% of Quebec's population somehow (it was honestly probably less), and that after the initial die-off their growth just stopped, which is basically the effect the Collapse had on global population growth, so sure...

...almost exactly twenty million.

Speaking of this, with the battle now over, is it safe to inform us how far the Buffalo relief column got before turning back? I'd like to write an omake on the woes of the Leamington force's attempt to get home, and I'd like to at least mention the Buffalo Militia's attempt at resupply.

Click to shrink...

They had just made it past the city of Hamilton when the Victorian generals out west concluded that they were getting purged no matter what and that they could not deliver a victory stirring enough to offset the backlash from five divisions being outright obliterated. In the game of prisoner's dilemma that ensued, somebody decided to be the one to sell out their fellow prisoners and get the first word on the matter.

However, the locals in the area had known about the Leamington force's destruction for at least three days longer, and had been spending those three days eyeing up the resupply force and idly making plans.

When the Militia turned back towards Hamilton, the locals decided to stop waiting.

The resupply force managed to get to Hamilton, but while the city was officially welcoming, that was a very officially/unofficially sort of scenario. In practice, their entire militia was, "on leave," and shooting at the Buffalo Militia from their windows. It was a hell of urban fighting, inflicted upon 0/5 militia forces.

And then Toronto showed up.

And for what happened when Toronto showed up, I will need to insist that you wait for the outside perspectives update, coming soon.

 

[buli-buli]

Oh yes! There's blood in the water now!

 

[fasquardon]

Either Victoria will have some major internal issues to deal with, or Russia is going to have to really up how much support they give (and that issue will probably get worse once the NCR declares independence.)

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I do wonder if Russia will cut its losses and see about finding another "policeman" for North America.

Mind you, being an ally of Victoria probably means no-one else would touch Russia with a bargepole...

I'm fairly sure that Victoria's territory barely thirty million today today, so they absolutely don't have that. If we assume that their stupidity cause high-end Year Zero casualties -- 25%, for the record, assume that they got 50% of Quebec's population somehow (it was honestly probably less), and that after the initial die-off their growth just stopped, which is basically the effect the Collapse had on global population growth, so sure...

...almost exactly twenty million.

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OK. I thought I'd saw you give 30 million as a ballpark number before. I guess I must have misread you talking about the modern-day population.

20 million seems more reasonable given they've been systematically looting the "cultural marxists" that they keep conveniently finding everywhere their armies march. That or Victorian agriculture is more competent than usual for previously urban populations forced to work the land (I know it's been a couple generations, but even so, previous times this has happened in history it takes generations for the forced population to skill-up to their new context).

fasquardon

 

[Argidoll]

And then Toronto showed up.

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You say it like it's the arrival of a natural calamity. As a canadian, I am rather offended.

Why wasn't Toronto a PC option?

 

[PoptartProdigy]

You say it like it's the arrival of a natural calamity. As a canadian, I am rather offended.

Why wasn't Toronto a PC option?

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Because they live on Victoria's doorstep and do not have FCNY's advantages.

Like, they did something impressive when the Militia passed through Hamilton, but there's a reason why I haven't said what. Toronto is, effectively a Victorian puppet. That's not fun gameplay. Sadly.