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I'm only advocating sinking a single point into Organize Libraries, and that's the locked "Technology" AP. If I could spend that on Soothing Fears, I'd seriously consider doing so.
The reason for spending a point on Soothing Fears is that spending even a single point is likely to give us increased awareness of the diplomatic situation on Lake Michigan and Lake Huron, and hopefully do at least a little to ease things for Soothing Fears. Remember how spending one point on Detroit got us awareness of the Victorian delegation's arrival and gave them an incentive to delay simply rolling over and letting the Victorians sail past? Yeah, same idea.
My bet is that we get something like "-10 to DC on tasks involving the general populace's ability to read and write from increased literacy, -10 to rolls involving specialized technical knowledge once the libraries are organized." But I could be wrong.
Well, I'm not saying no to Expand the Navy, but it's quite possible that we'll have another even better economic action next turn, or something else that we absotively posilutely MUST double/triple down on.
I don't see that as a real priority tbh, since most of what I'd want from that I can get better via intel, but you're right that I missed the step bonus.
I don't know if I believe that that's the case, but it's certainly plausible and makes more sense of the action.
Yeah, agreed. It's the first thing there I'd cut, and I might be able to be persuaded to flat up put it elsewhere even with no new options. Something like
-[] Mobilize the Troops (x2)
-[] Basing Rights (x2)
-[] Soothing Fears
-[] Subsidize Industry (x2)
-[] Reintegrate Audrey's Network
-[] Arms Design (x2)
I'm also considering Department of Education over arms design, since it has an AP limit of 3 and 2 successes needed; even if it's not as strong as organize library, it's something we have a good chance (71%) to just get out of the way and start benefiting from it.
-[] Mobilize the Troops (x2)
-[] Basing Rights (x2)
-[] Subsidize Industry (x2)
-[] Reintegrate Audrey's Network
-[] Department of Education (x3)
I don't see that as a real priority tbh, since most of what I'd want from that I can get better via intel, but you're right that I missed the step bonus.
I don't know if I believe that that's the case, but it's certainly plausible and makes more sense of the action.
I really can't understand your responses to me- which part of what I said is the basis for which of your remarks has me confused.
Yeah, agreed. It's the first thing there I'd cut, and I might be able to be persuaded to flat up put it elsewhere even with no new options. Something like
-[] Mobilize the Troops (x2)
-[] Basing Rights (x2)
-[] Soothing Fears
-[] Subsidize Industry (x2)
-[] Reintegrate Audrey's Network
-[] Arms Design (x2)
Again, I don't think Arms Design,specifically, will have the same level of general benefit as Organize the Libraries. If we didn't already have major logistical advantages on the way I'd go for it, but I really, really want us to unlock the full benefits of that bonus we paid 2 CP for.
I'm also considering Department of Education over arms design, since it has an AP limit of 3 and 2 successes needed; even if it's not as strong as organize library, it's something we have a good chance (71%) to just get out of the way and start benefiting from it.
-[] Mobilize the Troops (x2)
-[] Basing Rights (x2)
-[] Subsidize Industry (x2)
-[] Reintegrate Audrey's Network
-[] Department of Education (x3)
My main reason for favoring Organize the Libraries over Department of Education is that I expect the library project to have direct impact on other tasks that we need to do in the short run.
Like, want to design guns? Having every book on gun design in the city neatly indexed and ready to be pulled from the stacks would probably help.
Want to organize public school curriculums? Bet your ass you want to have ready access to all the old school textbooks, and all the old books on how to teach.
Want to build a railroad? Being able to find all the books about trains is really going to help, as opposed to just having everyone wing it.
I really can't understand your responses to me- which part of what I said is the basis for which of your remarks has me confused.
Again, I don't think Arms Design,specifically, will have the same level of general benefit as Organize the Libraries. If we didn't already have major logistical advantages on the way I'd go for it, but I really, really want us to unlock the full benefits of that bonus we paid 2 CP for.
My main reason for favoring Organize the Libraries over Department of Education is that I expect the library project to have direct impact on other tasks that we need to do in the short run.
Like, want to design guns? Having every book on gun design in the city neatly indexed and ready to be pulled from the stacks would probably help.
Want to organize public school curriculums? Bet your ass you want to have ready access to all the old school textbooks, and all the old books on how to teach.
Want to build a railroad? Being able to find all the books about trains is really going to help, as opposed to just having everyone wing it.
It's responding to your points in the order you said them. My first response
I don't see that as a real priority tbh, since most of what I'd want from that I can get better via intel, but you're right that I missed the step bonus.
I'm only advocating sinking a single point into Organize Libraries, and that's the locked "Technology" AP. If I could spend that on Soothing Fears, I'd seriously consider doing so.
The reason for spending a point on Soothing Fears is that spending even a single point is likely to give us increased awareness of the diplomatic situation on Lake Michigan and Lake Huron, and hopefully do at least a little to ease things for Soothing Fears. Remember how spending one point on Detroit got us awareness of the Victorian delegation's arrival and gave them an incentive to delay simply rolling over and letting the Victorians sail past? Yeah, same idea.
My bet is that we get something like "-10 to DC on tasks involving the general populace's ability to read and write from increased literacy, -10 to rolls involving specialized technical knowledge once the libraries are organized." But I could be wrong.
I don't contest that it's valuable. I just also don't think it's smart to sink in AP without making a serious effort to actually complete it; I'd rather have DoE turn 3 and Libraries turn 5 than libraries turn 4 and DoE turn 5, because I don't think the benefit from libraries is more than twice that of DoE.
I really can't understand your responses to me- which part of what I said is the basis for which of your remarks has me confused.
Again, I don't think Arms Design,specifically, will have the same level of general benefit as Organize the Libraries. If we didn't already have major logistical advantages on the way I'd go for it, but I really, really want us to unlock the full benefits of that bonus we paid 2 CP for.
My main reason for favoring Organize the Libraries over Department of Education is that I expect the library project to have direct impact on other tasks that we need to do in the short run.
Like, want to design guns? Having every book on gun design in the city neatly indexed and ready to be pulled from the stacks would probably help.
Want to organize public school curriculums? Bet your ass you want to have ready access to all the old school textbooks, and all the old books on how to teach.
Want to build a railroad? Being able to find all the books about trains is really going to help, as opposed to just having everyone wing it.
While having good libraries might help us, lack of institutional knowledge and know how might hamper things, alternatively, it will take time for the knowledge to become a thing, so it could be that we might get DC reductions over a number of turns, though it would depend how poptart wants to handle things, but by that logic getting the libraries going should be a priority, before the schools, because the schools will be the next generation, so it will start paying dividends slower.
But yeah, I am more or less sold on Organize the libraries before education
@PoptartProdigy , would organizing libraries lower Infrastructure Projects DC? I can see it either way. It'd give us more information on the way things used to be, on how railroads used to operate and what went into building a highway and so on. But I could imagine you saying "no, not a direct enough connection."
The thing is, while diplomatic contact and reintegration of the intelligence network provide related information, and sometimes overlapping information, they don't do the same things. The earliest phases of our intelligence network's reconstruction will probably provide us only with general information and unintegrated tidbits. They won't be able to specifically focus in on the question of what various Lake polities think of us and how they're likely to jump during this war, because they've had no orders to do so in a full year or more, and the shape of the war itself was only marginally foreseeable when Governor Jameson died.
Furthermore, deliberately making diplomatic outreach is very important in and of itself. As we saw with Detroit. And that's not a benefit we could have gotten in full measure by spying on Detroit, for instance.
I don't contest that it's valuable. I just also don't think it's smart to sink in AP without making a serious effort to actually complete it; I'd rather have DoE turn 3 and Libraries turn 5 than libraries turn 4 and DoE turn 5, because I don't think the benefit from libraries is more than twice that of DoE.
See, the thing is, we HAVE to spend 1 AP on a Technology action, but we have a lot else going on right now that makes it potentially rather risky for us to burn 2-3 AP on such actions.
So it's not like we can choose to completely ignore Technology and focus all our AP on other areas... But just because we have to spend 1 AP on Technology, doesn't automatically make it necessary or even advisable to spend another 1-2 AP to make sure we complete an action in a single turn.
...
The question you should be asking yourself isn't "which turn would I rather get DoE and Libraries?"
It's "does it make sense to commit free AP to the Technology category in hopes of finishing a Technology action this turn, in light of everything else that's going on?"
I would argue that the answer is 'no,' and that we should simply spend the available Technology AP on the most important ongoing project in hopes of banking a success towards it, so that we'll have MORE freed-up AP to deal with other things later.
Sorry for the double post but I needed a tag post to ask:
Are the training levels (1/5, 2/5) that you use for troops largely independent of how well equipped those troops are?
Like, if our 1/5 trained troops fought a time-displaced Roman legion, would the legions have a high training level but still tend to lose battles because they're fighting against guns using only swords and spears?
Sorry for the double post but I needed a tag post to ask:
Are the training levels (1/5, 2/5) that you use for troops largely independent of how well equipped those troops are?
Like, if our 1/5 trained troops fought a time-displaced Roman legion, would the legions have a high training level but still tend to lose battles because they're fighting against guns using only swords and spears?
Do we really have to put more than one AP into things that aren't absolutely necessary? Seems kind of a waste to overkill cp on something that isn't a crisis resolver.
The thing is, while diplomatic contact and reintegration of the intelligence network provide related information, and sometimes overlapping information, they don't do the same things. The earliest phases of our intelligence network's reconstruction will probably provide us only with general information and unintegrated tidbits. They won't be able to specifically focus in on the question of what various Lake polities think of us and how they're likely to jump during this war, because they've had no orders to do so in a full year or more, and the shape of the war itself was only marginally foreseeable when Governor Jameson died.
Furthermore, deliberately making diplomatic outreach is very important in and of itself. As we saw with Detroit. And that's not a benefit we could have gotten in full measure by spying on Detroit, for instance.
See, the thing is, we HAVE to spend 1 AP on a Technology action, but we have a lot else going on right now that makes it potentially rather risky for us to burn 2-3 AP on such actions.
So it's not like we can choose to completely ignore Technology and focus all our AP on other areas... But just because we have to spend 1 AP on Technology, doesn't automatically make it necessary or even advisable to spend another 1-2 AP to make sure we complete an action in a single turn.
...
The question you should be asking yourself isn't "which turn would I rather get DoE and Libraries?"
It's "does it make sense to commit free AP to the Technology category in hopes of finishing a Technology action this turn, in light of everything else that's going on?"
I would argue that the answer is 'no,' and that we should simply spend the available Technology AP on the most important ongoing project in hopes of banking a success towards it, so that we'll have MORE freed-up AP to deal with other things later.
I'm fairly confident they won't jump at all. Either we're winning, and they won't want to, or we're losing (unlikely imo), and victoria won't be desperate enough for their help to break their MO. The bigger concern, honestly, is that they supply bases for the victorians. Intel will probably tell us this, diplomacy will let us get info + stop this but is harder.
I would argue that the answer is yes. 1-2 free ap spent to start getting us some noticable bonuses is definitely helpful; all four give more dividends the sooner we complete them. Given that, I'd prefer to spend on Education or Arms designs, because they're easier to complete. The former is strictly more valuable and (since it only makes the department) will take a bit to get into full swing, while the latter will be giving us a military bonus in this comign war and saving lives.
Do we really have to put more than one AP into things that aren't absolutely necessary? Seems kind of a waste to overkill cp on something that isn't a crisis resolver.
Now that the Unionist movement is regarded as the party of sabotage, murder, assassination, and treason by the general public, I wonder if Sperling or another resident fascist sympathizer leader will try to rebrand the movement and make a new party or leadership with a "respectable" face. I hear the European fascist far-right movements have a habit of regularly forming new parties with a supposedly more moderate totally not racist and not Nazi face when the old leading far-right party inevitably ends being regarded as racist Nazi loving scum by their words and actions. Could it happen here in Chicagoland?
I'm fairly confident they won't jump at all. Either we're winning, and they won't want to, or we're losing (unlikely imo), and victoria won't be desperate enough for their help to break their MO. The bigger concern, honestly, is that they supply bases for the victorians. Intel will probably tell us this, diplomacy will let us get info + stop this but is harder.
I don't think we'll be able to fully re-establish our intelligence system in Jameson's absence.
It's like, if we hadn't seen the assassin eat up our first two turns' intel actions and kill our intelligence chief, we MIGHT be in a position where we could confidently say "Psst, go find out if the Victorians have arranged for 'pirates' to base out of any of the following twenty lake towns, some of which are 500 miles away and on the Canadian side of Lake Huron." Right now, we're not. We've picked up the marbles but they're not that organized yet.
So I don't think we can count on getting this information just by taking the Reintegrate Audrey's Network action, even if it succeeds which is not a certainty. And we need that information in a reasonably timely manner, PLUS we do sooner or later need to get the burden of "Hostile Neighborhood" off our backs so it's not like we'd be wasting our time.
This isn't a case where we shouldn't do X just because the secondary benefit of the action could theoretically eventually be achieved by doing things that are gated behind action Y that has a lower DC.
I would argue that the answer is yes. 1-2 free ap spent to start getting us some noticable bonuses is definitely helpful; all four give more dividends the sooner we complete them. Given that, I'd prefer to spend on Education or Arms designs, because they're easier to complete. The former is strictly more valuable and (since it only makes the department) will take a bit to get into full swing, while the latter will be giving us a military bonus in this comign war and saving lives.
Again, I expect Organize Libraries to pay off on a LOT of different things, possibly including DC reductions or outcome improvements on one or both of the other tasks.
Again, we paid for this National Spirit, and a pretty significant chunk of the benefits are gated behind an action. I don't think we're going to regret taking the action.
Do we really have to put more than one AP into things that aren't absolutely necessary? Seems kind of a waste to overkill cp on something that isn't a crisis resolver.
So far, we've put multiple AP on the following classes of things:
1) Things that are actually very important where a failure would be a serious problem. Such as securing a coaling depot for our supply line to Detroit. In and of itself failure there might not cause us to just lose the war, but it'd hurt us, and a bunch of our soldiers would die, and Detroit might get conquered by genocidal fascists.
2) Things that cost multiple AP, so we're going to end up spending multiple AP on them anyway sooner or later. If so, and if we haven't got any other, more pressing things to spend AP on, we might as well spend multiple AP to get them faster. Or to have some insurance in case the event doesn't work out as planned- but Poptart already has a mechanic for that, because we get bonuses when events succeed with more successes than required.
So I don't understand what you're talking about here.
Please be more careful how you phrase your question. Because you phrased this one in a way that suggested others were doing the thing you didn't want them to do. And that you thought they were being stupid.
It sounded as if you were being hostile and contemptuous of us, on grounds of an action none of us were taking.
A new contribution, this one focused on the new units being organized for the Commonwealth's new federal army and their preparations for the fighting in Detroit. Also say hello again to Major- now Colonel- Schultz, who showed up as the executive officer of Devil Brigade in a previous bit. As always @PoptartProdigy I am happy to make any changes you ask.
"General Burns." Schultz held his salute a moment longer before bringing his hand down.
The two men smiled at each other.
"I don't know that I did you a favor." The new Major General said.[1]
"I know you didn't." It was one thing to be the executive officer of a battalion-sized unit- whatever you called it- and another thing to be the CO of an actual brigade. Schultz had confidence in his own abilities, but he knew that he would be breaking new ground. Of course, it was quite a jump for Burns himself- from the commander of a battalion to commander of the entire reconstituted 1st Infantry Division.[2]
"Tell me what's the state of the 1st Battalion."[3]
It was an order, not a question, but that was how Burns did things.
"1st Battalion is in the best state of readiness I've ever seen. This is the first time since California that we've had a real chance for rest, recovery, and repair- not for weeks or months but we're closing on two years now. I can honestly say that we are one of the most capable units in North America."
Devil Brigade might have been called a brigade, but technically it had only ever been the 1st Battalion of the 1st Brigade of the 1st Infantry Division. An unimportant distinction when the 1st Battalion was the only surviving unit of the Brigade, but no longer.
"What's your assessment of the new units?"[4]
Devil Brigade's former executive officer grimaced. The brigade was a brigade again in truth, but the other battalions were composed either of new recruits or reorganized units from the former "militaries" of the CFC member states. There had been talk of splitting up 1st Battalion and spreading its veteran personnel among the new units, but Burns had vetoed the proposal in favor of preserving their most effective unit intact.[5] By the standards of the Old World weapons and training of the original Devils, the new units were lightly armed and had only mediocre training.[6]
"We're very infantry heavy sir. That's my first concern, even if I understand the reason for it. The technicals Cavalry Squadron has may be a decent weapons against warlords or other factions, but I have little confidence in their ability to face Vik T-34s."
"The technicals are for scouting, skirmishing, and harrying infantry- leave the T-34s to the 1st's tank companies."[7]
"My thought as well sir. The 2nd and 3rd Infantry Battalions are having some trouble integrating into the broader brigade- they still have their own unit identities and I don't know that they really think of themselves as 'Devils' yet. It's not terrible but there's more inter-brigade rivalry than I think is healthy."[8]
Hellfire Burns had reorganized the units of the different CFC members, dividing units to break up local loyalties and imposing new command and control structures on previously undisciplined militia units. He had faced considerable hostility from the governments of the formerly independent city states and factions who didn't like to see themselves totally reliant on a new and untested national military, from the officers of those units who resented the loss of a great deal of their autonomy and authority, and from the regular men and women themselves who often connected strongly with their regimental identities. The fragments of the Illinois Army National Guard that had been maintained by the Springfield Government stood out from the pack somewhat- their training and equipment had degraded to a point that they were no better than any other militia[9], but they had maintained their pre-war command structure and relatively good organization. Burns had therefore opted to reserve his political capital for breaking up more hopeless forces, thus the 1st Battalion, 178th Infantry Regiment and the 2nd Battalion, 130th Infantry Regiment of the IANG had been reorganized with minimal personnel changes into the 2nd and 3rd Infantry Battalions of Devil Brigade.[10]
They were no more or less incompetent than any of the other new units, but they'd brought their own regimental loyalties with them, including their old nicknames and unit insignia.
"Hopefully fighting together will encourage more esprit de corps. Are they any better than the new recruits?"
"Not really. They had an advantage in organization, but transforming both battalions into motorized infantry[11] was a huge shift that left them with a lot to unlearn. Morale is high though, and they're eager to face the Viks. The boys and girls with the field artillery are at still excited at being 'Devils', but again their equipment-"
"I know."
"We have mortars and recoilless rifles coming out our ears, other than that the heaviest artillery we have are some truck-mounted 40mm autocannons."[13] Schultz added. "Should be at least marginally helpful against heavier targets. I'd feel better if we had real artillery- mobile inch guns for instance."
"Something else we're working on." The general agreed. "We have the ability to make them in theory, but so far it's been more important to devote our industry to other areas- trucks for instance. And HMGs."
"As for the other units; the engineers are fine at building things when it's practice, I'd like to see them do it in the field. The support battalion though is excellent- I know your work when I see it sir."[14]
Hellfire Burns nodded.
"But in your estimate, how will the new units handle themselves in combat?"
"Ugh… they won't break when the shooting starts, or even the shelling. They understand the basics, they have the drills and the discipline down... it's the training, it's not real enough. No training can truly prepare you for the real thing, but the new recruits have learned most of what they know from descriptions and people who never really saw real combat against a proficient or semi-proficient enemy themselves. The guardies have at least seen some combat, but they're totally unused to the tactics and techniques of a professional army, and they're resistant to learning."[15]
"When the fighting begins either they'll toughen up and become Devils for real, or they'll fall apart. We won't know for sure untill that happens." Schultz finished.
Burns sighed.
"I know." He said. "There's a long-term plan to eventually improve training, but it's going to have to wait until we can deal with the immediate crisis."[16]
"Speaking of which- can I ask who we're sending to Detroit?"
"The details for the expeditionary force haven't been finalized yet. But Devil Brigade will definitely be a part of it."
[1] Since Burns is a general now, the question is; what sort of general? A Major General or Two-Star General would be responsible for commanding division-sized units. Any higher and it's hard to justify him taking the field personally, any lower and he'd have to answer to a relatively immediate superior. Of course given how new the Commonwealth Army is, it's still quite possible that they have no Three-Star or higher generals yet.
[2] The Commonwealth doesn't claim to be the Restored United States (yet), but it seems like it would be right in line with the Revivalist ideology to reuse the names and symbols of Old World units for its new military. What units? Well the sole surviving battalion of Devil Brigade is also technically the sole surviving unit of the 1st Infantry Division, so it would make sense to bring back the "Big Red One" aka "The Fighting First" aka "The Bloody First" aka "The Big Dead One". I'm assuming most of new Commonwealth Army is at least nominally part of the 1st's command structure, since it's not going to be a very big army yet and there's no point in over-complicating things.
[3] 1st Battalion is of course the 5/5 Veteran unit that Burns commanded, inheritor of the Devil Brigade name since it was the only surviving unit of said brigade.
[4] If we're going to revive the 1st Infantry Division, then it makes sense to begin by filling out the Devil Brigade back up to strength with additional battalions.
[5] "You can't stiffen spit with buckshot."- the immortal words of John Ringo.
[6] Just because they're organizationally part of Devil Brigade doesn't mean that the new units aren't the same 1/5 Green troops as everyone else, though.
[7] Technicals, standardized so they're all the same model of truck and mount the same one or two models of machine gun, then given some basic armor, make sense as an early weapon for the Commonwealth given (a) the quality of our enemies, and (b) the fact that they're probably the best we'll be able to manage as far as domestically produced "armor" for a while. There is a valid "light cavalry" tactical niche that non-standard tachical vehicles can fill, particularly when it comes to exploiting their superior speed and mobility against infantry.
[8] This seems like a good place to give the (pending canonization) current organization of the newly expanded Devil Brigade;
1st Brigade Combat Team, 1st Infantry Division (aka 'Devil Brigade')
-Headquarters and Headquarters Company
-1st Squadron, 4th Cavalry Regiment (aka 'Quarterhorse', restored 1/5 unit part of a larger restored 4th Cavalry that consists of most of the Commonwealth's light fighting vehicles. Armed mostly with machine-gun-mounted technicals.)
-1st Battalion, 16th Infantry Regiment (formerly the "Iron Rangers', now 'The Old Devils', the 5/5 combined arms battalion that pulled through the apocalypse under Burns. Part of a larger restored 16th Infantry consisting of most of the Commonwealth's front-line infantry.)
-2nd Battalion, 16th Infantry Regiment (aka 'The Hannibal Guard', 1/5 unit formerly the 1st Battalion, 178th Infantry Regiment of the Illinois Army National Guard. Motorized Infantry.)
-3rd Battalion, 16th Infantry Regiment (aka 'The Lincoln Guard', 1/5 unit formerly the 2nd Battalion, 130th Infantry Regiment of the Illinois Army National Guard. Motorized Infantry.)
-1st Battalion, 5th Field Artillery Regiment (aka 'Hamilton's Own', restored 1/5 unit part of a larger restored 5th Field Artillery consisting of most of the Commonwealth's field artillery. Armed mostly with improvised mortars and recoiless rifles, also has 40mm autocannons.)
-1st Engineer Battalion (aka 'The Diehards', restored 1/5 unit that is currently the Commonwealth's only unit of military engineers.)
-101st Brigade Support Battalion (aka 'Liberty', restored unit)
[9] I tried.
[10] Since the rump-Illinois State Government that joined the CFC is a continuation of the pre-collapse Illinois State Government, it stands to reason that their military forces would be at least organizationally descended from the old National Guard, even if their quality has declined severely since the early 21st century.
[11] Motorized Infantry is the transitional stage between regular infantry (the poor beggars) and mechanized infantry. Mechanized infantry (like the 1st Battalion's two Old World-equipped Rifle Companies) has armored fighting vehicles to transport its troops into battle such as Armored Personnel Carriers. Motorized infantry just has regular trucks, which makes it much faster and more mobile than regular infantry, but no better armed or armored. Mechanized infantry will be outside of our capabilities for a while, but motorized infantry shouldn't be too much of a reach for two battalions- there must be a few trucks around.
[12] Mortars are ridiculously easy to make with a basic machine shop and widely available materials, and are a favorite weapon for armed forces without access to purpose-built artillery. Home-made mortars were used by the Israelis in '48, by the Provisional Irish Republican Army from the 70s through the 90s, and are currently popular with Hamas in the Gaza Strip and different rebel groups in Syria. We should be able to produce plenty.
[13] Our navy has auto-cannons, so we should have them available, and they're a decent weapon in the field. The Israelis used 20mm anti-aircraft guns as direct-fire weapons against Egyptian tanks quite successfully during their war of independence.
[14] Given Burns' logistical genius, the support units would probably be the one part of the Commonwealth Army other than the Old Devils operating at well above the normal ramshackle abilities of the CFC.
[15] Not so resistant as to handicap them, but resistant enough not be noticeably any better than the new recruits.
[16] We gotta get that sweet Old World Training eventually, guys.
[17] There seemed to be a general consensus during the last vote that the Devil Brigade- or at least the 1st Battalion thereof- should be sent to Detroit, and that Burns should go with to command whatever expeditionary force we send. But I'm happy to drop this part.
Please be more careful how you phrase your question. Because you phrased this one in a way that suggested others were doing the thing you didn't want them to do. And that you thought they were being stupid.
It sounded as if you were being hostile and contemptuous of us, on grounds of an action none of us were taking.
"I know you didn't." It was one thing to be the executive officer of a battalion-sized unit- whatever you called it- and another thing to be the CO of an actual brigade. Schultz had confidence in his own abilities, but he knew that he would be breaking new ground. Of course, it was quite a jump for Burns himself- from the commander of a battalion to commander of the entire reconstituted 1st Infantry Division.[2]
[2] The Commonwealth doesn't claim to be the Restored United States (yet), but it seems like it would be right in line with the Revivalist ideology to reuse the names and symbols of Old World units for its new military. What units? Well the sole surviving battalion of Devil Brigade is also technically the sole surviving unit of the 1st Infantry Division, so it would make sense to bring back the "Big Red One" aka "The Fighting First" aka "The Bloody First" aka "The Big Dead One". I'm assuming most of new Commonwealth Army is at least nominally part of the 1st's command structure, since it's not going to be a very big army yet and there's no point in over-complicating things.
Oh, I'm sure there's lots of militia units and formations not incorporated, but "the First Division" sounds like a pretty good core for the expeditionary force to Detroit.
"We're very infantry heavy sir. That's my first concern, even if I understand the reason for it. The technicals Cavalry Squadron has may be a decent weapons against warlords or other factions, but I have little confidence in their ability to face Vik T-34s."
"The technicals are for scouting, skirmishing, and harrying infantry- leave the T-34s to the 1st's tank companies."[7]
"Portees. Even if you can't fire a heavy tank-killer FROM the truck, you can still carry it ON the truck. Helps a lot if they have something with real armor. The Nazis didn't have much like that, but- some. They wouldn't have been who they were without a panzer fetish, and they couldn't help but indulge it."
[smirks]
"Would have done better to make five or ten times as many technicals. There were enough pickup trucks running in those days to do it, if they'd bothered."
"But we won't use them against the F-15s." There was a twinkle in Hellfire Burns eye. "I'd like to see what a 40 mm cannon can do to a T-34. Or a brick wall. Or a technical. Ammunition?"[14]
Hmm, I dunno. That's a Bofors gun. Even with good armor-piercing ammunition it's going to be marginal against the T-34 for actually penetrating the tank's armored hull except at point blank range. On the other hand, you don't necessarily have to penetrate a tank to mission-kill it. Not if you can chew up the tracks, spall the hell out of it with a burst of exploding shells, or slip at least a round or three into the engine compartment.
[14] The 40 mm Automatic Gun M1 should be simple and robust enough to make repairing it possible even after 120-odd years, although they'll have to make the ammunition from scratch. No good against even semi-modern jets, but it'll go through steel armor within a range of 1,500 meters easy. The Israelis used 20mm anti-aircraft guns as direct-fire weapons against Egyptian tanks quite successfully during their war of independence.
"They're literal museum pieces from the Illinois State Military Museum, but they were well preserved and Carder's had people crawling all over them, replacing what needs to be replaced and refurbishing what doesn't. He says they'll be temperamental, but they'll fire. No good against an F-15-"
This actually makes me think; is the U-505 submarine still intact in the Science and Industry Museum in Chicago? Because it would be kind of hilarious if we could eventually get it to working order and terrorize some unfortunate Victorian Coastal Forces in the Great Lakes.
Oh, I'm sure there's lots of militia units and formations not incorporated, but "the First Division" sounds like a pretty good core for the expeditionary force to Detroit.
"Portees. Even if you can't fire a heavy tank-killer FROM the truck, you can still carry it ON the truck. Helps a lot if they have something with real armor. The Nazis didn't have much like that, but- some. They wouldn't have been who they were without a panzer fetish, and they couldn't help but indulge it."
[smirks]
"Would have done better to make five or ten times as many technicals. There were enough pickup trucks running in those days to do it, if they'd bothered."
This too. Mobility can offer a big advantage, if you use it right. Of course the Viks have technicals of their own.
Hmm, I dunno. That's a Bofors gun. Even with good armor-piercing ammunition it's going to be marginal against the T-34 for actually penetrating the tank's armored hull except at point blank range. On the other hand, you don't necessarily have to penetrate a tank to mission-kill it. Not if you can chew up the tracks, spall the hell out of it with a burst of exploding shells, or slip at least a round or three into the engine compartment.
What kind of tanks, and what kind of ammo were they using?
This actually makes me think; is the U-505 submarine still intact in the Science and Industry Museum in Chicago? Because it would be kind of hilarious if we could eventually get it to working order and terrorize some unfortunate Victorian Coastal Forces in the Great Lakes.
We probably can't, we'd have to somehow either repair or replace her engines (which would require a substantial amount of work as even in our timeline the most functional of our museum subs, the USS Cod, still is unable to even make half of her top speed, and this is after USS Stingray was stripped for parts to repair and maintain her engines), repair the hole in her hull, and manufacture working torpedoes to actually arm her. As if that wasn't enough, after doing all that we'd still have to somehow train a crew to operate a submarine from scratch. Of course, using torpedoes on a makeshift brown water navy seems a rather wasteful use of our few resources, let alone repairing and deploying a World War 2 U-Boat against the Vichies.
Hmm, I dunno. That's a Bofors gun. Even with good armor-piercing ammunition it's going to be marginal against the T-34 for actually penetrating the tank's armored hull except at point blank range. On the other hand, you don't necessarily have to penetrate a tank to mission-kill it. Not if you can chew up the tracks, spall the hell out of it with a burst of exploding shells, or slip at least a round or three into the engine compartment.
So seeing as how this thread has died down a bit I thought I'd bring up something from the discord.
What's the global tech level like? I've seen contentions that the outside world should have General AI, genetic augmentation, railgins, targeted bioweapons, orbital tech, all that good stuff.
My contention is that there probably isnt? Because then the moment we act up we eat a crowbar and almost all die before a squad of Russian Khan Noonien Sings armoured up in Crysis suits mop up the survivors, which would a bit anticlimactic.
Which is aside from the fact that it would be a bit of narrative suicide to have to jarringly realign from "fuck fascists" to "I dunno it's about AI rights and shit now I guess." Six months from now when we're feverishly trying to crash build a race of robot war slaves out of rebar, uncollated library books, and broken glass to repel Russian skynet.
This actually makes me think; is the U-505 submarine still intact in the Science and Industry Museum in Chicago? Because it would be kind of hilarious if we could eventually get it to working order and terrorize some unfortunate Victorian Coastal Forces in the Great Lakes.
The U-505 was put into place under conditions that would make her unsuitable to ever submerge again; I think the best we could conceivably get out of her would be a relatively slow and low-profile diesel-powered gunboat, and even that would probably be a major stretch.
I think the idea of keeping her as a centerpiece of the War Museum, built adjacent to the old Museum of Science and Industry and sharing space, would be a better long term plan, assuming U-505 hasn't been cut up for scrap or anything.
The Vickers Light series were comically poorly armored and you could probably take one out with a .50 caliber machine gun. The Matilda tank series had armor that would probably refuse 20mm rounds unless they were outstandingly good at armor penetration, from most angles and ranges, anyway.
The T-34's armor scheme is more like the Matilda and less like the Vickers Lights.
I suspect that our best armor-piercing ammunition is not up to the standards of accurate Armor Piercing Fin Stabilized Discarding Sabot ammunition with depleted uranium penetrators. We're probably going to do better to rely on shaped charge explosive HE rounds for larger-caliber shells in the antitank role.
We probably can't, we'd have to somehow either repair or replace her engines (which would require a substantial amount of work as even in our timeline the most functional of our museum subs, the USS Cod, still is unable to even make half of her top speed, and this is after USS Stingray was stripped for parts to repair and maintain her engines), repair the hole in her hull, and manufacture working torpedoes to actually arm her. As if that wasn't enough, after doing all that we'd still have to somehow train a crew to operate a submarine from scratch. Of course, using torpedoes on a makeshift brown water navy seems a rather wasteful use of our few resources, let alone repairing and deploying a World War 2 U-Boat against the Vichies.
I wouldn't advocate torpedoes against Victorian boat technicals.
I'd advocate them against Victorian freighters. The Victorians probably have some lake-going freighters of respectable size, and will almost certainly be relying on them heavily to supply their naval forces.
The big issue in the battle around Detroit is that the only way to get from Lake Erie to Lake Huron is along the Detroit River itself. Our own forces will no doubt block the river to any hostile ship traffic that tries to sail NORTH of Detroit (even with only recoilless rifles and heavy machine guns, you could make it pretty much impassable for ships), but conversely if the Victorians can land an army close to the mouth of the Detroit River SOUTH of the city, and they probably can, then they'll similarly be able to prevent us from getting ships out into Lake Erie to raid their commerce. Either way, you have to fight and win a land battle before you can have naval access to the lake the enemy is using to supply the forces for the land battle.
So seeing as how this thread has died down a bit I thought I'd bring up something from the discord.
What's the global tech level like? I've seen contentions that the outside world should have General AI, genetic augmentation, railgins, targeted bioweapons, orbital tech, all that good stuff.
My contention is that there probably isnt? Because then the moment we act up we eat a crowbar and almost all die before a squad of Russian Khan Noonien Sings armoured up in Crysis suits mop up the survivors, which would a bit anticlimactic.
Which is aside from the fact that it would be a bit of narrative suicide to have to jarringly realign from "fuck fascists" to "I dunno it's about AI rights and shit now I guess." Six months from now when we're feverishly trying to crash build a race of robot war slaves out of rebar, uncollated library books, and broken glass to repel Russian skynet.
Poptart has made it pretty clear that the world suffered a massive economic collapse and that the developed world in particular has been suffering from, to a large extent, economic and technological stagnation at best.
I'd expect technology to be better but not vastly better even in the highest-tech areas of the world, with the breakup of some major world governments (particularly China and the US, with the EU not being in good shape either as I understand it) having greatly disrupted adoption of anything heavily networked, and advances in computer hardware quite possibly having come to a screeching halt.
Okay, I'm a bit disoriented and have five (5) minutes to type, so I can't go through and do exhaustive replies. However, I will have some free time in a couple of hours, so if anybody with questions could kindly repost them, I'll answer when I get the chance. In the meantime, I know this one has been going around on all quest platforms:
Technology. @Lazer Raptor actually has the most information on this of any of you from the questions they asked about their omake, and I see no harm in disseminating the information further. Since the Great Collapse, which has been about forty-odd years, technology has advanced, but slowly. The wider world is widely variable, but the great powers have a comfortable generation of technological superiority on the pre-Collapse United States. This, obviously, is a fecking disgrace of a lead to develop over forty whole years, but there were a global collapse and several decades of GDPs tanking under massive military spending to contend with. It means that a) even once you restore pre-Collapse levels of technology, you will still be behind, but also b) that it will be a swift process to up-tech to New World standard once you have your feet under you and somebody willing to give you charity help.
Soldiers do not deploy to the battlefield with railguns, but there are naval point-defense lasers. They do not have space assets -- at least minimally because trying it would instantly send the current global stand-off blazingly hot -- but they do have much better-realized aircraft stealth. Next-generation shit, not far-future science fiction shit. Things have advanced. They have not left you totally eclipsed.
And any augmentation technologies are still in their infancies and certainly are not ready for mass deployment.
Yeah you're both no doubt correct. I won't deny that my main motivation of this idea is the ironic twist of an OG Nazi war machine being used to kill a bunch of Neo-Nazis. Anyways, I'm certain the sub has been scrapped or rusted by this point.
What's the global tech level like? I've seen contentions that the outside world should have General AI, genetic augmentation, railgins, targeted bioweapons, orbital tech, all that good stuff.
My contention is that there probably isnt? Because then the moment we act up we eat a crowbar and almost all die before a squad of Russian Khan Noonien Sings armoured up in Crysis suits mop up the survivors, which would a bit anticlimactic.
Which is aside from the fact that it would be a bit of narrative suicide to have to jarringly realign from "fuck fascists" to "I dunno it's about AI rights and shit now I guess." Six months from now when we're feverishly trying to crash build a race of robot war slaves out of rebar, uncollated library books, and broken glass to repel Russian skynet.
