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Victoria Falls: A Post-Collapse American Nation Quest [Down With Victoria!]

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Antix_Shadows said:
It's also the plan most likely to allow us to snowball considerably after the initial phases
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Nah that'd be Hellfire, given the end of starting phase would be either 'bad end' or 'ded victoria'.

All the economy allows for 'meteoric growth' but we'd still have a rival polity in the neighborhood that wants to fuck with us. so it wouldn't be as insane a growth curve.

But, as Simon says, that requires us to make it through the initial phases unscathed in both respects which isn't a guarantee. Especially since all the economy doesn't even start us with established at all, meaning we'd need to actually finish finalizing the government before doing anything.
 
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[x] Plan All-Round Start
[X] Plan Security, Established, and Economy
[X] Plan Entrepot

While I would prefer Brown Water Navy I'd be okay with All-Round Start.

Though keep in mind folks: Having a superior navy means we can deny Victoria the ability to supply their forces via the rivers.

Edit: Also, I think not having Established while taking the malus Greatest Sin is a fatal mistake due to how the Chicago Convention could be derailed by well placed assassinations due to how fragile its start will be.

Though frankly, Plan All the Economy would be much better served by removing Efficient Bureaucracy and adding in Established and Good Security.
 
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38 - 34 for All econ and all around respectively.
Adhoc vote count started by VoidZero on Mar 27, 2019 at 4:25 PM, finished with 268 posts and 85 votes.
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Antix_Shadows said:
It's also the plan most likely to allow us to snowball considerably after the initial phases
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I mean, doesn't that kind of depend on how much damage we take?

It's kind of hard to snowball if your starting snowball has been blown all over the landscape. This is why I'm characterizing it as 'death-or-glory;' either we are totally screwed if the penalties turn out to be as bad as I think and/or we roll poorly, or we do really great if the penalties aren't so bad after all and/or we roll very well in dealing with them.

Blackstar said:
I mean, it does take 9 points of economic advantages for a cost of 6 points of disadvantage, so it's still net positive on investment for econ. And again, if we can make it through the first bit, it offers a chance of near unmatched snowballing.
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The thing about an exponential growth curve is that your rate of growth at any future time is a function of how much you start with. If you have twice as much before the magic of compound interest starts, you will always have twice as much.

I think the danger is that our greed for lots of starting assets with this plan causes us to take so many disadvantages that we lose the benefits of a lot of those assets, or have to expend them up-front to put out the fires they cause, or have a delay in getting the ball rolling on our economic growth because we have to rebuild from all the damage. In which case a plan with fewer disadvantages and fewer advantages might still outperform us, simply by having a smoother start and transitioning more gracefully into the exponential boom phase.

It's sort of like how in a real-time strategy game, you can get really screwed over if an enemy raiding force hits your base and offs a few of your workers early in the buildup phase of the game. Even if you have economy bonuses, it's hard to come back from behind after taking hits to an early disadvantage.
 
Simon_Jester said:
Though it's a great way to stress-test whether @PoptartProdigy is actually willing to Bad-End a quest within the first five or six turns.

[spoiler alert: I would bet a considerable sum of money that they totally are]
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Coming soon to an SV near you, from the makers of Terminus Quest and After The End:

Chicago Falls: A Post-Post-Collapse American City Quest [Down with poor economic management!]
 
I think a lot of people are assuming straight for worst case scenario, never allow the potential for crit fails to determine your course of action.
 
Antix_Shadows said:
I think a lot of people are assuming straight for worst case scenario, never allow the potential for crit fails to determine your course of action.
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No, I'm running with the assumption of the options you guys picked. Not having an established government is one of those things Poptart explicitly said was bad, and not having a formed government while we have an assassin killing people trying to form said government is a recipe for bad. I'm not assuming critfails, I'm assuming that the combination of options picked will perhaps lead to a very poor mix of problems.
 
Antix, it isn't just worst-case scenario: worst-case scenario is instant sunshine.

No, it's that the break-even scenarios are still pretty terrible; natch, how do we take any actions to impose a currency without a state? How do we keep signatories staying in when delegates start being assassinated? How do we have a strong economy when smugglers and criminals are trying to destroy the Independent Merchants that provide our revenue as Disunited Currency fucks everything else up?

These aren't resolved questions by any means, and I think you are doing a great disservice to the people who are against All The Economy to reduce their arguments to "but what if we crit fail tho?"
 
[x] Plan All-Round Start
-[X] Independent Merchants
-[x] Established
-[x] Good Security
-[X] Libraries
-[X] Population Boom
-[x] Disastrous Start

[X] Plan Security, Established, and Economy
-[x] Brown-Water Navy (-2 CP)
-[x] Established (-2 CP)
-[X] Good Security (-1CP)
-[X] Independent Merchants (-2CP)
-[X] Widespread Vaccinations (-3CP)
-[X] The Greatest Sin (3CP)
-[X] Victorian Sympathizers (2CP)
-[x] Population Boom (2 CP)
-[X] Hostile Neighborhood (1CP)
-[x] Libraries (-2 CP)

[X] Plan Entrepot
-[X] Brown Water Navy
-[X] Independent Merchants
-[X] Ear To The Ground
-[X] Libraries
-[X] Population Boom
-[x] Import Export Professionals
 
huhYeahGoodPoint said:
Antix, it isn't just worst-case scenario: worst-case scenario is instant sunshine.

No, it's that the break-even scenarios are still pretty terrible; natch, how do we take any actions to impose a currency without a state? How do we keep signatories staying in when delegates start being assassinated? How do we have a strong economy when smugglers and criminals are trying to destroy the Independent Merchants that provide our revenue as Disunited Currency fucks everything else up?

These aren't resolved questions by any means, and I think you are doing a great disservice to the people who are against All The Economy to reduce their arguments to "but what if we crit fail tho?"
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THIS so much. So god damn much.

How the hell are we going to deal with the highly placed Assassin, monetary crisis, Victorian attention, and lack of food all at the same time while *also* trying to establish a government and establish control over the area outside of the immediate city? Significant amount of action is going to have to be devoted towards getting Established the hard way while also trying to hold up the house of cards.

*ESPECIALLY* because Plan All the Economy doesn't pick Good Security meaning we won't have a bonus to counter intelligence, not to mention the smuggler malus aids the Greatest Sin malus by allowing the assassin to smuggle in his or her tools far more easily, meaning trying to find the source of the murder weapons will be far harder. Hell, Smuggler problem also means that the assassin could well smuggle in assistants.

Its not just crit fails that will do us in. Regular failures will do just fine, especially since I'm pretty sure the assassin doesn't need a crit fail on our survival rolls to kill someone. As nascent as Chicago will be when we start especially with the currently winning build it wont take many failed rolls much less crit fails to screw us over.
 
Here's a current tally by nettally.

Vote Tally : Victoria Falls: A Post-Collapse American Nation Quest [Down With Victoria!] | Page 164 | Sufficient Velocity [Posts: 4085-4361]
##### NetTally 1.9.10

[x] Plan All-Round Start
-[x] Independent Merchants
-[x] Established
-[x] Good Security
-[x] Libraries
-[x] Population Boom
-[x] Disastrous Start
No. of Votes: 38
Plan: ◈All-Round Start
Plan: ◈All-Round Star
aceraptor
Alanek
Aoinfinity
avatar11792
BoredStudent1414
Bruce-Man
Camry
Captain Hunt
Chiaroscuro
Derpmind
Exterminatus
FBH
Ganurath
Iandude0
IonicTiger
Jakethecap
Jim Starluck
john fox
LHB
Libandlearn
luhar1997
Mr Tebbs
Nightlord256
nkd1325
Pittauro
Professor Vesca
Rakuhn
Ralson
Random Member
Rat King
Rhodes
Rivenscryr
Ruirk
sciencefiction
Shapeless Phobos
Simon_Jester
Starwarlord
Strypgia

[X] Plan All the Economy
-[X] Brown Water Navy
-[X] Disastrous Start
-[X] The Greatest Sin
-[X] Independent Merchants
-[X] Rail Companies
-[X] Vaccines
-[X] Efficient Bureaucracy
-[X] Population Boom
-[X] Disunited Currency
-[X] Import/Export
-[X] Libraries
No. of Votes: 37
Plan: ◈All the Economy
AKuz
Antix_Shadows
Aranfan
Artificial Girl
avatar11792
Blackstar
Captain Hunt
Chiaroscuro
cokerpilot
Crazy7s1
Dermon
Doctor Elsewhere
FBH
Flectarn
Gino
IonicTiger
Jim Starluck
john fox
KnightDisciple
Lazer Raptor
LHB
Mortenkam
nkd1325
overtoast
QTesseract
Rakuhn
Ralson
Ruirk
S-159A1
Strypgia
thamuzz
Timewinders
TripleG316
tryrar
veteranMortal
VoidZero
Wiadi

[X] Plan Security, Established, and Economy
-[x] Brown-Water Navy (-2 CP)
-[x] Established (-2 CP)
-[X] Good Security (-1CP)
-[X] Independent Merchants (-2CP)
-[X] Widespread Vaccinations (-3CP)
-[X] The Greatest Sin (3CP)
-[X] Victorian Sympathizers (2CP)
-[x] Population Boom (2 CP)
-[X] Hostile Neighborhood (1CP)
-[x] Libraries (-2 CP)
No. of Votes: 29
Plan: ◈Security, Established, and Economy
aceraptor
AKuz
Aoinfinity
Aranfan
Artificial Girl
Blackstar
BoredStudent1414
Corripere
ctulhuslp
EBR
Exterminatus
Faith
Flectarn
huhYeahGoodPoint
Iandude0
Karugus
Lazer Raptor
Libandlearn
Mopman43
QTesseract
Rakuhn
Rat King
Rivenscryr
Simon_Jester
Starwarlord
ThatGuyWithIdeas
Usili 2.0
veteranMortal
Wiadi

[X] Plan Entrepot
-[X] Brown Water Navy
-[X] Independent Merchants
-[X] Ear To The Ground
-[X] Libraries
-[X] Population Boom
-[X] Import/Export Professionals
No. of Votes: 26
Plan: ◈Entrepot
aceraptor
AKuz
Aoinfinity
Aranfan
Artificial Girl
BoredStudent1414
Captain Hunt
Corripere
Dermon
Derpmind
Flectarn
Jim Starluck
john fox
Karugus
Lazer Raptor
LHB
Mr BreaksIt
Mr Tebbs
QTesseract
Random Member
Rat King
Simon_Jester
Strypgia
thamuzz
Twiggierjet
veteranMortal

[X]Securing a better Tommorow V3
-[X]Libraries
-[X]Independant Merchants
-[X]Widespread Vaccinations
-[X]Brown Water Navy
-[X]Foreign-Sourced Equipment
-[X]Population Boom
-[X]Victorian Sympathizers
-[X]Disastrous Start
-[X]Compromised
No. of Votes: 19
Rat King
AKuz
Aoinfinity
Aranfan
Artificial Girl
Blackstar
Corripere
Dermon
Flectarn
Iandude0
Karugus
luhar1997
Mr BreaksIt
Nightlord256
QTesseract
Simon_Jester
thamuzz
veteranMortal
Wiadi

[X] Hellfire Burns Vs. The World
No. of Votes: 18
Crazy7s1
Cmd. Frost
Corripere
Doctor Elsewhere
EBR
Gino
Iandude0
Inferno23
Libandlearn
newgman
overtoast
RedDragon2000
Rivenscryr
Ruirk
Secretariat
Starwarlord
Swedish15
TheCynicalPogo

[x] Plan Just the Government
-[x] Disastrous Start
-[x] Established
-[x] Efficient Bureaucracy
No. of Votes: 17
Plan: ◈Just the Government
Aoinfinity
Bruce-Man
Chiaroscuro
Dermon
Derpmind
kilopi505
Libandlearn
Miner249er
Mortenkam
Mr BreaksIt
Mr Tebbs
Pittauro
Random Member
Rat King
Simon_Jester
VoidZero
ZephirTheWind

[x] Plan Protector of the Midwest
[X] Plan All the Economy
-[X] Brown Water Navy
-[X] Disastrous Start
-[X] The Greatest Sin
-[X] Independent Merchants
-[X] Rail Companies
-[X] Vaccines
-[X] Efficient Bureaucracy
-[X] Population Boom
-[X] Disunited Currency
-[X] Import/Export
-[X] Libraries
[X] Plan Entrepot
-[X] Brown Water Navy
-[X] Independent Merchants
-[X] Ear To The Ground
-[X] Libraries
-[X] Population Boom
-[X] Import/Export Professionals
[x] Securing a better Tommorow V3
[X] Plan Security, Established, and Economy
-[x] Brown-Water Navy (-2 CP)
-[x] Established (-2 CP)
-[X] Good Security (-1CP)
-[X] Independent Merchants (-2CP)
-[X] Widespread Vaccinations (-3CP)
-[X] The Greatest Sin (3CP)
-[X] Victorian Sympathizers (2CP)
-[x] Population Boom (2 CP)
-[X] Hostile Neighborhood (1CP)
-[x] Libraries (-2 CP)
No. of Votes: 9
Plan: ◈Protector of the Midwest
Inferno23
Karugus
Libandlearn
LonelyWolf999
luhar1997
Nyvis
RedDragon2000
Simon_Jester
Weird Guy

[x] Plan Go Big or Go Home
-[x] The Greatest Sin
-[x] Disunited Currency
-[x] Population Boom
-[x] Nuke
-[x] Established
-[x] Independent Merchants
-[x] Widespread Vaccinations
No. of Votes: 7
Plan: ◈Go Big or Go Home
Aoinfinity
Dermon
Lazer Raptor
luhar1997
Rivenscryr
Secretariat
Twiggierjet

[X] Plan Bare Necessities
-[X] Libraries
-[X] Independent Merchants
No. of Votes: 6
Plan: ◈Bare Necessities
Aoinfinity
Camry
FBH
Libandlearn
Ralson
Simon_Jester

[X] Plan: Manufacture and Tax
-[x] Disastrous Start (1 CP)
-[x] Disunited Currency (3 CP)
-[x] Population Boom (2 CP)
-[x] Brown-Water Navy (-2 CP)
-[x] Established (-2 CP)
-[x] Efficient Bureaucracy (-3 CP)
-[x] Libraries (-2 CP)
-[x] Well-Preserved (-1 CP)
No. of Votes: 4
Plan: ◈Manufacture and Tax
Flectarn
Mortenkam
Rat King
VoidZero

[X]Securing a better Universe
-[X]Universities
-[X]Independant Merchants
-[X]Widespread Vaccinations
-[X]Brown Water Navy
-[X]Foreign-Sourced Equipment
-[X]Population Boom
-[X]Victorian Sympathizers
-[X]Disastrous Start
-[X]Compromised
No. of Votes: 4
Aoinfinity
Karugus
QTesseract
Simon_Jester

[X] Grand Theft BOOM
-[X] Ear to the Ground
-[X] Good Security
-[X] Aerial Reconnaissance
-[X] Brown Water Navy
-[X] Established
-[X] Efficient Bureaucracy
-[X] Well-Preserved
-[X] The Greatest Sin
-[X] Victorian Sympathizers
-[X] Import/Export Professionals
-[X] Hostile Neighborhood
No. of Votes: 4
Aoinfinity
QTesseract
Rivenscryr
VoidZero

[X] Go Big or Go Boom
-[X] Population Boom
-[X] Victorian Sympathizers
-[X] The Greatest Sin
-[X] Import/Export Professionals
-[X] Outbreak
-[X] Nuke
-[X] Established
-[X] Independent Merchants
-[X] Widespread Vaccinations
-[X] Resistance Contacts
No. of Votes: 3
Aoinfinity
Rivenscryr
Simon_Jester

[X] Go Medium-sized Boom
-[X] Population Boom
-[X] Victorian Sympathizers
-[X] Import/Export Professionals
-[X] Established
-[X] Independent Merchants
-[X] Widespread Vaccinations
-[X] Resistance Contacts
No. of Votes: 3
Aoinfinity
Pittauro
Rivenscryr

[X] Plan Shadow of the Bomb, v2
-[X] Established
-[X] Well Preserved
-[X] Nuke
-[X] Population Boom
-[X] Disastrous Start
-[X] Hostile Neighborhood
No. of Votes: 2
Plan: ◈Shadow of the Bomb, v2
Aoinfinity
Simon_Jester

[X] Go Bigger
-[X] The Greatest Sin
-[X] Disunited Currency
-[X] Population Boom
-[X] Victorian Sympathizers
-[X] Outbreak
-[X] Crossed Wires
-[X] Nuke
-[X] Established
-[X] Independent Merchants
-[X] Widespread Vaccinations
-[X] Efficient Bureaucracy
-[X] Well-Preserved
-[X] Brown-Water Navy
No. of Votes: 1
Aoinfinity

[X] Plan Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy
- [X] Old World Equipment
- [X] Old World Soldiers
- [X] Professionals Study Logistics
- [X] Victorian Attention (2 CP)
- [X] Brown Water Navy (-2 CP)
- [X] Established (-2 CP)
- [X] Independent Merchants (-2 CP)
- [X] Efficient Bureaucracy (-3 CP)
- [X] Good Security (-1 CP)
- [X] Ear to the Ground (-1 CP)
- [X] Import/Export Professionals (1 CP)
- [X] Population Boom (2 CP)
- [X] The Greatest Sin (3 CP)
- [X] Empty Spaces (1 CP)
No. of Votes: 1
Plan: ◈Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy
Mr BreaksIt

Total No. of Voters: 86
 
I mean, going with the all round plan means we have constant action taxes for the rest of the game, along with the much more painful part of goverment setup that still needs to be done. So, post accords it's going to be a constant drain on action economy.

Edit: Plus all-round takes a population boom with no vaccines or beurocracy to manage it, leading to food riots and dissease as the goverment has no way on acting to accomplish anything.
 
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Blackstar said:
I mean, going with the all round plan means we have constant action taxes for the rest of the game, along with the much more painful part of goverment setup that still needs to be done. So, post accords it's going to be a constant drain on action economy.
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The advantage of All-Round is explicitly that the government action is already done. That is why it has established.
 
Libandlearn said:
The advantage of All-Round is explicitly that the government action is already done. That is why it has established.
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Yes, that we can vote in a goverment, not that there exists a beurocracy. Look at the description of both traits thats bolded. The benafit of EB is that the goverment can act. The benafit of established is that it holds the territory around the city.
 
Libandlearn said:
The advantage of All-Round is explicitly that the government action is already done. That is why it has established.
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That is false. Government action is not done until both E and EB happened.
VoidZero said:
PoptartProdigy Today at 8:00 AM
Efficient Bureaucracy gives you an efficient state apparatus; Established gives your state control over more than just the City of Chicago.
ctulhuslpToday at 8:00 AM
does latter give us farmland which is, well, being farmed???
PoptartProdigyToday at 8:01 AM
It does give you direct political control over large swathes of farmland, yes, as opposed to, "merely," being the only regional power within range of all of that farmland. Sure, take it to the thread if you like.
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