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Technological Conservatism (-3 CP): While the wonders of the old Country are a powerful motivator for your people, they have nevertheless lived decades in a world where, "old," usually meant, "completely inexplicable and prone to malfunction at odd moments." They are distrustful of new technology and will approach its adoption with caution at best. Your population has picked up an anti-tech prejudice over the years.

Crossed Wires (-2 CP): At some point, somebody learned something wrong, and that wrong fact passed into common circulation. Somehow, it has avoided being challenged since, and now you do not even know that a falsehood underlies your learned class's assumptions about how the world works. The Collapse has caused your body of engineering knowledge to warp. Your current engineers have a gap in their knowledge which they backfilled with assumptions. You will not know what this is until it explodes in your face, nor will you know in any more detail than, "engineering," to what this gap pertains.
I believe these are debuffs, and as such should not *require* CP to take. Unless I'm mistaken these should grant CP instead.

EDIT: Ninja'd
 
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Okay, look, suppose for the sake of argument that you're right about this. I don't think you are, but I don't need you not to be to make this point.

Now, I know you're arguing against considering game mechanics too much, so I'll try and respect that. But can you at least concede that CP are purely a game-mechanical abstraction? That is, there is no in-universe thing that behaves like/explains/justifies CP. We good on that?

Okay, so CP are a game mechanical abstraction. Then how should CP costs be determined? Presumably with the goal of creating good gameplay, since their lack of correspondence to reality prohibits assignments based in realism. I would argue that the best gameplay is obtained by maximizing the number of viable options present, which would suggest that more-effective options should be assigned higher prices for game balance.

This suggests that if experts really are as important as you claim, then they will be hysterically expensive in terms of CP. You follow? My argument is then that such a massive expenditure would be inefficient because the benefits are too spread out, and we should instead focus on specializing in a particular direction, thereby getting more net gain in that direction at the expense of others.

From here you could argue the relative benefits of specialization versus a generalist approach, of course, but thus far I have not seen you doing so.
Well first all, you're assumption on things not being worth it because if they were worthitthey wouldnt be is something I find lackluster. Upon review of the CP costs and weighing proffessionals against the weight of drawbacks and I do not find either of them wanting. They seem present and worth their expense.

Hells, I was expecting them to be hilariously expensive.

And no, I do not see the benefit of a specific specialist approach over what I view as vital to the functioning of every part of society. everything we could "specialize" in benefits if not outright requires the greater support structures of expertise and knowledge in any and everything including those same specific fields.
 
I made some quick and dirty tables.

   
Military
Perk Cost
Old World Hardware -1
Foreign-Sourced Equipment -1
Old World Soldiers -1
Brown-Water Navy -2
Green-Water Navy -4
Old World Training -2
Professionals Study Logistics -3
Incompetent Military 2
Shattered Logistics 3
No Navy 2
   
Diplomatic
Perk Cost
Revivalist Connections -1
Domestic Connections -1
Established -2
Good Reputation -1
Restart the Machine -2
Hostile Neighborhood 1
Victorian Attention 2
Russian Attention 3
Fringe Elements 3
   
Intelligence
Perk Cost
Ear to the Ground -1
Good Security -1
Arial Recon -2
Compromised 1
Disastrous Start 1
Vickie Sympathizers 2
The Greatest Sin 3
   
Economics
Perk Cost
Independent Merchants -2
Rail Companies -2
Widespread Vaccinations -3
Efficient Bureaucracy -3
Disunited Currency 3
Population Boom 2
Import/Export Professionals 1
   
Technology
Perk Cost
Libraries -2
Universities -2
Well-Preserved -1
Empty Spaces 1
Tech Conservativism 3
Crossed Wires 2
 
isn`t the idea to get it to balance back to zero?
that is what i got from reading the post?

unless it not and that is fine too!
 
It's hard to make real decisions without knowing how many points there are to spend, but one thing we can currently do is make modules of the most efficient ways to spend points per module, and then pick and choose from them. I think this is mostly the full spread of plausible military spending, short of actually getting russias attention (even divided attention = haha no), with the best values per points you're willing to spend.

-[]Old World Hardware
-[]Old World Training
-[]Professionals Study Logistics
-[]Foreign-Sourced Equipment
-[]Old World Soldiers
-[]Brown-Water Navy
-[]Victorian Attention
-[]Hostile Neighborhood
-[]Green-Water Navy
-[]Old World Training
-[]Professionals Study Logistics
-[]Foreign-Sourced Equipment
-[]Old World Soldiers
-[]Brown-Water Navy
-[]Victorian Attention
-[]Brown-Water Navy
-[]Old World Training
-[]Professionals Study Logistics
-[]Old World Training
-[]Brown-Water Navy
-[]Foreign Sourced Equipment
-[]Professionals Study Logistics
-[]Old World Training
-Shattered Logistics
-No Navy
-Incompetent Military
-Shattered Logistics
-No Navy

I would assume, @Simon_Jester , that your character would be looking for something like strong military and up in their ideal plan, and coalitioning with almost anyone against gain points or maximise points?
 
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Yeah, there's supposed to be an upcoming vote that will determine our starting CP IIUC.
 
Okay, so here are my list of Necessary, and Must Avoid:

Brown Water Navy. I'm in agreement that one of our top objectives is to secure the riverine systems from the Great Lakes to the Gulf of Mexico, due to how it can secure us so much ability to send things around and open a channel to the outside world.
Independent Merchants. Give me that sweet sweet +50% bonus to Starting Economy. Give.
Rail Companies. In order to really take advantage of (hopeful) riverine security, we'd like to also have a fucking infrastructure network. Thus, rail.
Libraries. If you read the fluff, you'll note that it came with institutions based around books. This probably means experts, though less than, say, if we also got...
Universities. Because fuck yes, give me that expertise.

No Navy. Yes, we're starting on land. Riverine expansion is still the number one way we'll grow in power.
Restart the Machine. ok dude we literally got the option to maximize democracy we shouldn't be doing this bullshit again
Russian Intervention. Right now, they've got the best military in the world. They also have the best intelligence network. Absolutely do not fuck with them before we're remotely ready.
Fringe Elements. Because since we're likely paying for everything else instead of a nuke, one of these resistance cells getting the nuke is something we absolutely cannot afford.
The Greatest Sin. Because that nuke is still around, and now we're installing a Victorian sympathizer in our government?! Last time somebody thought that was a good idea, Atlanta got fucking nuked, and now we know there's a nuke, just loose in the world.
Empty Spaces. Because we need to start somewhere for our industry.
Crossed Wires. Not knowing how we're getting bent over the table as we get everything wrong is the absolute worst.

We, uh, probably won't be able to afford it and a delivery system, so partial thread consensus is that we just, uh, hope it goes away?

Anyway, onto the likes and dislikes:

Professionals Study Logistics. If we don't take the stuff that makes us confident in winning every tactical engagement, well, we'll just have to take the options that allow us to lose every single battle and still win the war.
Green Water Navy. Might actually allow us to get control to the Welland area, where we might be able to reopen Seawaymax through St. Lawrence. Hell yeah.
Established. Give us that sweet sweet recognition and avoid the wrath of Poptart.
Revivalist Connections will allow us to snowball bigger, especially if we take some of the other 'drawbacks'.
Good Security. Because I enjoy sleeping at night.
Efficient Bureaucracy. Everybody knows that any government worth its salt is only worth what it can administrate.

Domestic Connections. Yes, this is probably going to be listed as advantage. No I still don't want it. It's undemocratic.
Hostile Neighbors. Has the potential to create Victorian/Russian sponsored coalitions against us, and that's not exactly what we want.
Victorian Attention. Taken with the other options, we stand a chance of surviving it, but only a chance.
Disastrous Start. Not the end of the world, but not terribly great either.
Victorian Sympathizers. Vichies out and stay out.
Disunited Currency. Because that's just pissing away what fragile economy we have.
Technological Conservatism. Has the potential to look annoying and I Don't Like It.
Hm. Reviewing the list I put up earlier:

Brown Water Navy: -2
Independent Merchants: -2
Rail Companies: -2
Libraries: -2
Universities: -2

For a total of -10 for my absolute minimum requirements.
Debuffs I'd be willing to take:
Incompetent Military: +2
Compromised: +1
Population Boom: +2
Import/Export Professionals: +1

For a total cost of -4. And yeesh I should really be taking vaccinations with Population Boom, which dumps the plan down to a -7. And I don't even get Professionals Study Logistics or Established out of this! :cry:

(Shattered Logistics go on my Must Avoid list. Not being able to expand out of Chicago when that's the plan with the Brown Water Navy and Rail Companies is trying to sprint on one leg.)
 
Nobody lambasted English for supporting South in the Civil War, and both sides supported regimes of various sanity during Cold War.
So long as there is no conclusive proof, people might think that Russians were not responsible for the Fall - only for keeping americans down afterward. Not much better, I would give you that...
Given that the Russians have been blowing up Americans' stuff and killing them, and arming the appalling anti-American monster state that does so as well, to make this argument would probably require more willingness to be charitable to the Russians than a reasonable American would extend them.

Well first all, you're assumption on things not being worth it because if they were worthitthey wouldnt be is something I find lackluster. Upon review of the CP costs and weighing proffessionals against the weight of drawbacks and I do not find either of them wanting. They seem present and worth their expense.

Hells, I was expecting them to be hilariously expensive.

And no, I do not see the benefit of a specific specialist approach over what I view as vital to the functioning of every part of society. everything we could "specialize" in benefits if not outright requires the greater support structures of expertise and knowledge in any and everything including those same specific fields.
...Keani?

Please write in standard English, please? And use the words that accurately reflect the vote choices you're discussing. If you already know the vote choice is named "Universities," say so, so that it will be clear what you are talking about.
 
I'm going to be against any plan that proposes we have an incompetent military. We don't have to start off good, but we should definitely make sure we don't start off with something less able to defend ourselves with if the Vichys feel like we need to get smacked down.
 
My viable pet combos:

- Riverine Carthage:
Brown Water Navy (-2), Merchants (-2), Logistics(-3), Incompetent Military(2), Libraries (-2) for total of -7. Add more Navy if we have more CP.
Strat: economic dominance, become commerce nexus of the region and be profitable to work with.
- Winterhome:
Population Boom(2), Merchants(-2), Vaccines(-3), Rail(-2), Bureaucracy(-3), Incompetent Military(2) for total of -6. Add Libraries or Navy to taste.
Strat: survive winter, leverage pop overflow into being industrial and military nexus of the region.
- Primo Victoria
Veterans(-1), Hardware x3(-3), Victoria Attention(2), Logistics (-3), Rails(-2) or Navy, for total of -7 or so.
Strat: get Vicky to attack, kill them, get Legitimacy in Resistance by it, keep rolling.
 
Given that the Russians have been blowing up Americans' stuff and killing them, and arming the appalling anti-American monster state that does so as well, to make this argument would probably require more willingness to be charitable to the Russians than a reasonable American would extend them.

...Keani?

Please write in standard English, please? And use the words that accurately reflect the vote choices you're discussing. If you already know the vote choice is named "Universities," say so, so that it will be clear what you are talking about.

Hells mate, be a bloody pedant wont you.
myself said:
Well first of all, your assumption on things not being worth it because if they were worth it they wouldn't be worth it is something I find lackluster. Upon review of the CP costs and weighing universities against the weight of drawbacks and I do not find either of them wanting. They seem present and worth their expense.

Hells, I was expecting them to be hilariously expensive.

And no, I do not see the benefit of a specific specialist approach over what I view as vital to the functioning of every part of society. everything we could "specialize" in benefits if not outright requires the greater support structures of expertise and knowledge in any and everything including those same specific fields.

You damn well understood so in the future could you hold your little bullshit for something that actually means something

piss me off.
 
I'm going to be against any plan that proposes we have an incompetent military. We don't have to start off good, but we should definitely make sure we don't start off with something less able to defend ourselves with if the Vichys feel like we need to get smacked down.
How competant is your minimum? Are we looking at a 3pt plan like the ones I outlined above (or equivalent) or more like of the 7pt one?
 
Given that the Russians have been blowing up Americans' stuff and killing them, and arming the appalling anti-American monster state that does so as well, to make this argument would probably require more willingness to be charitable to the Russians than a reasonable American would extend them.

...Keani?

Please write in standard English, please? And use the words that accurately reflect the vote choices you're discussing. If you already know the vote choice is named "Universities," say so, so that it will be clear what you are talking about.

Hells mate, be a bloody pedant wont you.


You damn well understood so in the future could you hold your little bullshit for something that actually means something

piss me off.
I don't think either of these are very called for. Let's not. We've been very civil, lately, and I'd not like to spiral all of a sudden.
 
How competant is your minimum? Are we looking at a 3pt plan like the ones I outlined above (or equivalent) or more like of the 7pt one?

None of yours.

Brown water navy+logistics for 5 points would be my ideal. Both seem pretty vital to maintaining a functioning military.

Edit: Its not that I want a fantastic starting military more than that I don't wanna start out gimping ourselves when we have a warmongering state that just loves beating down its neighbors if they get 'too big for their britches'.
 
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Okay, I'm not willing to speculate on CP stuff until I know what we have to work with, although Brown-Water Navy sounds like it'd be nice.

On the topic of the New America: I, personally, am with the faction that wants to be a continuation of the old US, albeit not a direct one. I'm an American, I don't want to see my nation die completely. I would be willing to settle for 'successor state', though.
 
On that note, if anyone of you guys just happens to have access to a large topographical map of North America that isn't awful quality, please PM it to me. I'd prefer that to a somewhat boring blank background.

That's probably the weirdest and nerdiest request I've ever made but there you have it.

EDIT:
Thanks to Versharl for helping! The map is also in the Status Screen with a key!
You're welcome
 
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