Voting is open
[ ][DEVILS] Retain the Devil Brigade as an expeditionary warfare unit forming the basis of the CFC's special operations forces contingent.
[ ][DEVILS] Break up the Devil Brigade to serve as a training cadre for both enlisted personnel and officer candidates.
This is long term quality increase of regulars vs instant elite unit gain.

I'm leaning more on long term. Break up the Devil Brigade.
And this is, perhaps, the most important option that has to be chosen for this turn. Any plan without this option and an allocated 2 AP for it is an automatic fail in my opinion.
State Integration Office [1 Success required, DC 20, AP Limit 2]
Like this one. GoodPoint leans more on integrating new member states instead of addressing the refugees crisis, so I'm not voting for this.
 
Turn Six: Word About the World
COMMONWEALTH
-The refugee influx was expected after we comprehensively demonstrated the ability to beat Victoria down not once but twice, and backed it up with a safety net guarantee and the Declaration. It will prove to be a major resource down the road.
We just need to weather the first year or so.

Its also worth noting that Dept of Diplomacy can use the population flows and threat of losing a chunk of their base as....encouragement to get some wavering polities to sign onto the Accords.

-Looks like Chicago is angling to become its own state, separate from Illnois.
Internal politics....

AMERICAS
-And the Crusaders wild ride comes to a juddering halt. Its their first major mistep, but its a doozy.
Blackwell can bottle them up there and ignore them for a couple years until he has a New Model Army to blood.
Meantime, he can get to rebuilding.

For us, this portends the end of the easy money we've been gouging out of the Vics for food.

-Cali made a mostly clean break. Good for them, and confusion to their enemies.
The tenor of China's President's statements does help explain where California's A-team diplomats went during the Revivalist Convention.

-The Carribean Fleet's sudden activity seems aimed at us.

Well, not us personally, but North America in general, and California in particular. California-bound or originating trade is probably going around the Cape or across the Indian Ocean in order to reach the Atlantic.
Little wonder they want the America Corridor up ASAP.

On the bright side, its about to further energize cross-border Cali-Mexican trade.

Note the countries that protested Russia's moves in the Caribbean, and the ones that said nothing.
Especially the dogs that didnt bark.

ABROAD
-The fact that its expected to take two years for the EU to go from joint command structure to a unified military points to more or less a formalization of facts on the ground. But that move does point to hardening attitudes in Europe, as well as to how Little Nicky's ascension must have alarmed them.

Its also informative about just how economically and politically integrated the EU currently is.
Some good, some bad, because it means that people like France and Poland will need the buyin of the rest of the bloc to get seriously involved with us.

-Interesting events in India.
Hindu nationalist party without the allegiance of the youth at the same time demographics points to an increasing muslim population, never mind Pakistani refugees? Yeesh. Interesting times.

I wonder if Nicky will be able to resist the temptation to attempt to meddle, and if the BJP's ideology will lead them to condone it.
Or if such an attempt will draw a unified response from all of the Indian political establishment.




Smashing Miami would make the Boy feel good, but it would be pointless. The place is tiny and has no overt influence anywhere.

California would have made sense, but he's apparently decided not to.

India is shifting but is still an ally. Europe is talking shit, but is that would be a quagmire.

China. China is where Nicky is going to strike. China is overtly anti-Russia, to the point of openly congratulating California on its independence. Furthermore, it is surrounded by Russia and its allies, Japan and India. Forcing the country to fight a three-front war will make it a softer target for each. And all three desire a shot of the kind of militant nationalism a war brings right now.

Nicky wants a war to show the world that Russia is still tough and macho. That he is still tough and macho. He and his domestic allies will also want to shore up Russia's foreign alliances in the face of all these enemies testing them.
India's current regime is noticeably in danger of losing political power. Given they're nationalists, they are more likely to try and motivate their base and maybe peel away the more anti-China elements of the People's Front.
Finally, Japan has just been sort of there from what we've seen. But, the impression is a slow stagnation and decline. But, I can totally see them deciding that now is the time to expand strengthen ties with their allies, reinvigorate their nations spirit, and expand their empire.
1)California just decoupled from the Russosphere.
Decades of unequal trade deals and relatively cheap labor, and a captive pool of educated people 40-60% the size of the Russian Empire, gone, and about to weigh in on the balance sheet of the rest of the world.

The economic impact on the Russian economy, and that of its puppets allies has yet to be calculated. As is any resultant unrest.
He could still go to war, but anything that isnt a one month intervention is unlikey to happen in the next year.



2) China is a Great Power. With the world having transitioned away from fossil fuels, they no longer have the vulnerability of petroleum imports to worry about and they're self sufficient in essentials. Any attempts at blockading them has to deal with the fact that all Japan's domestic ports and most of Imperial Russia's Pacific ports are within easy reach of the Chinese homeland.

And the rest of the world who trade with the Chinese, of course.

India might make nasty faces, but it is not going to fight a war that requires them to maintain supply lines across the freaking Himalayas. Japan is literally within missile and airstrike range of the Chinese mainland, are much more reliant on imports, and their colony of South Korea shares a landborder with China's ally/client North Korea.

Then there's the Imperial Russian port of Vladivostok, home of the Russian Pacific Fleet and literally right on China's land border.
Begging to have a couple divisions parked on it.

I give the Republic of China better than even odds of going 2v1 against Japan and Russia and winning a conventional war.
At the same time. Advantages of geography and positioning. And Little Nicky's advisors know it too.
And that doesnt even count the implications of what pulling much of their force to the Far East means for their European stability.


If the Imperials choose to start a quick war, they're going to be looking for an easy flex that has no powerful friends, doesnt mire them down in commitments, or pull away enough forces from their western border that either the EU nor the countries they invaded get any ideas. Either an enemy weak enough to get stomped, or one where they have easy logistical lines.

That means the Pacific is right out.

So are we, because we are a thousand kilometres inland and will almost certainly draw in California and everyone else looking to give him a black eye by shipping in weapons. FCNY would require attempting to stage an invasion in the Atlantic, and hoping the EU would not intervene.

Subsaharan Africa does not have any nearby Russian bases of significant size, and if Africa is now a Player, not worth the heat.
Im betting Eastern Europe somewhere close. Possibly in the Balkans.
With Option B being in the Mediterranean/Black Sea/Middle East.

Or Victoria. Sweeping Nova Scotia of organized Crusaders would be a week's work for VDV.
■■■
California would involve attempting to fight a long distance war against a nuclear power, while stripping the Russian Pacific Coast bare while China watches and sharpens its knives. That stopped being a realistic option when Cali managed to pull off their coup cleanly. That kind of war you could win and still lose.

This comes with an additional wrinkle for old Nicky boy. Considering the state of the world and Russian overt aggression I would give 90% odds that China/EU have an under the table mutual defense agreement. Allowing China to go under would put Europe in a terrible position and vice versa.
I can 99% guarantee that does not exist
The point of such treaties is deterrence. A secret mutual defense treaty is not deterring anyone.
 
We need soldiers now. It cost more to train our forces in the future but we need an army NOW.
So my vote will be for an existing professional army and a Devil's brigade expeditionary force

There's simply way too much going on that can drag us into war or tie us down and the opportunity costs of not responding to oppurtinities or threat is too much.


I discussed earlier about how China barefoot doctors give us a scheme for primary care. It's the ideal compromise. Primary care will give us the biggest bang for the buck, improve lives, cost the least and take away minimal specialist talent if we copy the barefoot scheme.
Post in thread 'Victoria Falls: A Post-Collapse American Nation Quest [Down With Victoria!]' Victoria Falls: A Post-Collapse American Nation Quest [Down With Victoria!]


Bonus points. This scheme can be mobilised and expanded to provide First Aid Stations for our army and militia, although field medics would require more training.


To me. The key crux would be to get momentum going instead of actual success. So, gameterm, I choosing all the get AP scenarios while strategy, the idea is to build something to exploit the future.

So taxation, Green Energy and Old Relics are all things I vote on. Analysts is probably what I want out of Intel. Refugees is a mess that suck up AP so probably another point thrown here.

I REALLY want infrastructure unlocked, but that's something that will suck up AP in the long term


I'm probably out of free AP but I wanna suggest a write in.


@PoptartProdigy
[] Create media department : The CFC faces a lot of challenges. One of them would be actually getting people to do or follow what they want. Create a media department that would "educate" the public or foreigners on what the CFC is , what we here for and what we doing now.

Building back America? Looking for chemists? This man is your Friend. He fights for freedom.


Mao didn't get everyone to spin cloth and make salt, proclaim no looting without a dedicated "media" department. When should you plant seeds? Want a list of recognized CFC traders in the Mississpi? We get the Truth out.

.


.



Heh. I held back a story vis the home front because I wanted to confirm details before writing about Sarah again..... Time to rewrite it and see where the juices go.
 
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[][DEVILS] Retain the Devil Brigade as an expeditionary warfare unit forming the basis of the CFC's special operations forces contingent.

We need the Devil Brigade as an expeditionary force while the rest of the army works up.
As we have learned, there are time-sensitive objectives that require a trusted, mobile force to handle. The retrieval of Aubrey, his techs, pilots and planes from a largely hostile native population, for example. Or to investigate rumors of a nuclear weapon.

Plus, the Mississippi project will not all have cooperative polities and governments.
A mobile brigade of around 4000 people, trained to a standard rare on the continent, will be a useful lever, and where necessary, stick, for those instances where diplomacy fails.

We can import trainers, or use people too old or too injured for active ops to train the next generation.
We cant import trusted operatives.
 
well, from the news, Victoria is going well (for us), we're getting lots of refugees that are both a problem, a threat and an opportunity (we'll have to deal with them, but we might be able to turn them into a resource and it means Victoria loses pop for when they'll need it to recover and rebuild...), and if we're lucky Russia will be too musy with South America, EU, China and India to worry too much about us.


now, let's see the new turn update...

To the shores of Maine, if you must. Perhaps you'll find enough spare change along the way to pay for the trip.
:rofl:

appropriate

[ ][DEVILS] Retain the Devil Brigade as an expeditionary warfare unit forming the basis of the CFC's special operations forces contingent.
[ ][DEVILS] Break up the Devil Brigade to serve as a training cadre for both enlisted personnel and officer candidates.

...this seems to me like a "tactical vs strategical" preference. I'm not sure. Usually I'd say they can do more good as trainers, but there's bound to be PROBLEMS during this preparation and consolidation period, and we could use a special force to solve those problems...




ok, let's look at it category by category. As a reminder we're short enough on AP that we probably can't afford to overspend unless it's TRULY essential.

DEFENSE:

...honestly we might want to take them all. That would be 5 free AP though...

Maybe we can delay the Standing core for one turn?

STATE:

Expand is a must. we need every AP we can get.

Foreign Arms, at the very least, can wait for a few Defense actions to be completed first I think.

Mississipi probably needs to be started, but we don't have to finish it now. Maybe 1 ap to start with though.

other ones are all useful.

DOMESTIC AFFAIRS:


...damn, it's not an easy situation.

Taxes, refugees, those are essential. stabilizing the coalition is important too.

Of those, I'd say that the department to integrate new territories in our government is the least urgent.

DEVELOPMENT:

Green Energy: we want it. once we get the 2nd success we have only one more turn to get the third one. we probably should continue this.

I think infrastructure should come before industry (ammo), and the post office is admittedly good for our reputations, especially considering it was our idea in the first place.

Maybe 1 post office 1 energy 2 infrastructure? At least we have 3 category APs...

SECURITY

if there's somewhere we want to overspend, I think it's in Victorian intelligence. We shouldn't waste the chance.

TECHNOLOGICAL RECOVERY

Retraining campaigns seems like a good way to start making a dent into the refugee problem too, if we're lucky. We should definitely take it.

...Establishing the Department of Education is also important, though it's one of those things we might end up delaying forever as things stand...







just for a quick check, we have


OUR APs (category + free)= 17 AP (9 free, 1 on every category except Development, which is 3)

MINIMUM AP TO COMPLETE EVERYTHING (if we pass every DC): 6 (defense) + 9 (state) + 5 (Domestic affairs) + 7 (Development) + 5 (Security) + 7 (but can only spend 5, presses have a limit of 1 ap max) (Technological Recovery) = 39 AP of things to do (37 if we count the presses limit. 36 if we just ignore that action, really)


...you know, all things considered it could be worse.
 
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[] [Devils] Break up the Devil Brigade to serve as a training cadre for both enlisted personnel and officer candidates.

[] Plan Marching Down The River
sounds good to me, also fairly sure the votes open if not let me know.
edit: because reasons.
someone inform me when its time to vote, thank you!
 
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VOTE
[]Plan Foundations
-[][DEVILS]Retain the Devil Brigade as an expeditionary warfare unit forming the basis of the CFC's special operations forces contingent.
-[][Defense] Military Training Reform [SYP]: DC20. Required: 2 (1 of 2 complete). (1x Defense AP)
-[][Defense] Standing Core [SYP]: DC30. Required: 1. (1x Free AP)
-[][State] Expand the Department: DC30. Required: 2. (1x State AP + 1x Free AP)
-[][State] Expatriate Outreach [SYP]: DC15. Required: 1. (1x Free AP)
-[][State] Establish Council Representation: DC35. Needed: 1. (2x Free AP)
-[][State] To St. Louis, And Beyond [SYP]: DC15. Needed: 3. (2x Free AP)
-[][Domestic Affairs ] Refugee Management: DC25. Needed: 1. (1x Domestic AP)
-[][Domestic Affairs] Coalition Talks: DC35. Needed: 1. (1x Free AP)
-[][Development] Green Energy [SYP]: DC: auto-pass. Needed: 2(/3) (1 of 2(/3) complete). (2x Dev AP)
-[][Development] Infrastructure Projects [SYP]: DC: Auto-pass. Required: 2. (1x Dev AP)
-[][Security] Long Tail: DC30. Required: 1. (1x Security AP)
-[][Security] Victorian Intelligence: DC30. Required: 1. (1x Free AP)
-[][Tech Recovery] Retraining Campaigns [SYP]: DC40. Needed: 2. (1x Recovery AP)

8 dedicated AP + 9 free AP
At least 3 free AP must be spent on SYP options


RATIONALE
Retain the Devils, because we need a standing force to handle sensitive things, from retrieving HVTs and equipment to discreetly intimidating would be warlords with foreign policy goals or domestic conditions we cant stand to providing onsite rudimentary training to local defense forces that have been victimized.

And the Devils have spent the last thirty years roaming the country, which means they have contacts and a legend that comes in useful for that sort of thing where necessary.

Military Training Reform is almost done.
Standing Core is both a useful diplomatic lever when talking to people who do not negotiate in good faith, and it gives us options in the event certain people attempt to operate special forces teams in our vicinity. Worth the loss of AP.

Expand The State Department gives us an extra AP. Get.
Expatriate Outreach connects us to the Diaspora, which could have knockon benefits from additional funding to trained experts to military trainers to contacts in different countries and industries. Things that manifest as reductions to DC, or additional AP.

Council Representation is critical for some investment, like the TransAmerican Corridor.
It also serves as an initial diplomatic contact with representatives from different parts of the country. That sffects our relationship with other Revivalist nations.

St Louis is a priority because with the Vic civil war going badly for the Crusaders, the Mississipi is life.
Refugee Management and Coalition Talks are essential to maintain domestic political stability.
Green Energy and Infrastructure Projects are auto-completes. Get.

Vic Intelligence because with the Crusaders on the back foot, we dont know when our window will close.
Long Tail because we need analysts to put intelligence together into a coherent picture.
Retraining Campaigns because it helps address our current glut of adult workers with limited skills.
 
Alright, new update dropped.

Devil Brigade: The choice between a general improvement in training or an elite formation. It's unclear to me if the training cadre can't be achieved by getting professional trainers from a major power (Europe or China come to mind), but let's work from the assumption that we can't. An overall boost to our army professionalism will definitivly be needed during the next war. However, an elite formation brings with it it's own benefits, both during a war and to secure interest beyond our region. "Do you want us to send the Devil Brigade?" is a pretty good threat against asshole warlords along the Missipi. Our own army is much more limited to our borders, both by logistics and by strategic concerns, while the Brigade can be sent far beyond our border. I think there is a very good argument that we will have a harder time securing the Mississippi River without an elite unit to pressure russian alligned polities/ robber states with, thus trading our faster army professionalism for slower modernization in terms of equipment.
in the eventual case of a war with Victoria, an elite unit would also greatly help with breaktroughs which could be exploited by our regular army, something which dispersed military quality doesn't help with.
I'm therefore strongly leaning towards retaining the Brigade for the sake of force projection.

Regarding our military priorities: Keep in mind that we have 14 turns until we start our war against Victoria. We do have time and need to develop our domestic industry and diplomatic connections. Having the strongest military we can achieve isn't good when our domestic industry is lacking or our we forego diplomatic alliances. We are curently in a unique situation of military security and I would like this used for the development of our nation.
- Officer academies are an obvious must-have and Training Reform is a no-brainer
- I would like to put standing core off for one or two turns. Having one less action point to work with is considerable cost, while the intermediate benefit isn't that high if we retain the devils. With our immediate military situation secure, we should consider the diplomatic benefit. And sending a professional army isn't really that potent of a threat if we can threaten to send the Devils who annihilated the victorian mechanized corps.
Other observations
- I would also like to collect intel on the Mississipi before attempting diplomatic outreach. Our state department should have first-hand information on the situation before commiting to a strategy, rather relying on what comes trough the revivalist grape-vine. Knowing what other states think is immensly useful when we are trying to pressure them.
- I'm somewhat sceptical how useful centralized taxation will be, with the lack of civil servants being mentioned as a harsh penalty.
I will be posting my own plan shortly, with my main priorities being domestic development.
 
Alright, new update dropped.

Devil Brigade: The choice between a general improvement in training or an elite formation. It's unclear to me if the training cadre can't be achieved by getting professional trainers from a major power (Europe or China come to mind), but let's work from the assumption that we can't. An overall boost to our army professionalism will definitivly be needed during the next war. However, an elite formation brings with it it's own benefits, both during a war and to secure interest beyond our region. "Do you want us to send the Devil Brigade?" is a pretty good threat against asshole warlords along the Missipi. Our own army is much more limited to our borders, both by logistics and by strategic concerns, while the Brigade can be sent far beyond our border. I think there is a very good argument that we will have a harder time securing the Mississippi River without an elite unit to pressure russian alligned polities/ robber states with, thus trading our faster army professionalism for slower modernization in terms of equipment.
in the eventual case of a war with Victoria, an elite unit would also greatly help with breaktroughs which could be exploited by our regular army, something which dispersed military quality doesn't help with.
I'm therefore strongly leaning towards retaining the Brigade for the sake of force projection.

Regarding our military priorities: Keep in mind that we have 14 turns until we start our war against Victoria. We do have time and need to develop our domestic industry and diplomatic connections. Having the strongest military we can achieve isn't good when our domestic industry is lacking or our we forego diplomatic alliances. We are curently in a unique situation of military security and I would like this used for the development of our nation.
- Officer academies are an obvious must-have and Training Reform is a no-brainer
- I would like to put standing core off for one or two turns. Having one less action point to work with is considerable cost, while the intermediate benefit isn't that high if we retain the devils. With our immediate military situation secure, we should consider the diplomatic benefit. And sending a professional army isn't really that potent of a threat if we can threaten to send the Devils who annihilated the victorian mechanized corps.
I just point out that

That said, having a standing army is, increasingly clearly, a requirement for the exercise and maintenance of your interests. : Acquire a standing Army force which does not require mobilization to use and may be used for the purposes of power projection. Given the lack of capacity most of the continent has had to muster such forces throughout the Collapse, simply having this force would be grounds for significant prestige.
.this kinda sounds important.

Also @PoptartProdigy , errr, I read the -1 AP costs in perpetuity as a we -1 AP cost for future actions mobilising our army for action and etc....


Can I seek clarification?
 
...if this is how bad the refugee crisis is now, could you imagine how much worse it'd be if we hadn't overinvested in them and the Census last turn?

@PoptartProdigy did we lose the option to fold the Detroit radio guy into our intelligence apparatus, or has he just become drastically below our level of abstraction?
 
.this kinda sounds important.

Also @PoptartProdigy , errr, I read the -1 AP costs in perpetuity as a we -1 AP cost for future actions mobilising our army for action and etc....


Can I seek clarification?
I'm not sure what your point is. I'm not saying having a standing core of the military isn't important, I'm saying it doesn't bring any immediate benefits if we maintain the Devils Brigade. We should have a professional core by the time conflict with Victoria becomes plausible, but that is somewhere around 8-10 turns in the future in my estimation.

The excact wording on the cost is also:
-1 free AP in costs, in perpetuity.
This reads to me as us paying a 1 action point as a cost in perpetuity. With standing armies being expensive, that does seem to make more sense than a reduction of mobilization costs, which aren't mentioned in the description.
 
- I would like to put standing core off for one or two turns. Having one less action point to work with is considerable cost, while the intermediate benefit isn't that high if we retain the devils. With our immediate military situation secure, we should consider the diplomatic benefit. And sending a professional army isn't really that potent of a threat if we can threaten to send the Devils who annihilated the victorian mechanized corps.
1)We are setting up infrastructure.

Including the Green Energy Power Plants Catherine and her father paid for, and which we cannot currently replace. It would be a real shame if some arsehole with a grudge like the Youngs of Shawnee Kingdom wrecked it because they had the impression that we lacked a standing reaction force to stop a couple hundred "bandits" or tracking the perpetrators down before their tracks faded.

Penny wise, pound foolish.

Furthermore, if you are looking to boost investor confidence, a standing army helps.
The Midwest is not quite so safe that security concerns have completely gone away for people looking to invest money and resources in the region.


2)The Devils will often be away from home doing one job or the other.
Finding and retrieving Aubry and his people, for example, took us a month afaicr.
A lot can happen in a month.

We made ourselves a target by being a leading advocate for Revivalism.
Taking basic security precautions seem wise. Victoria is not the only party that might be inclined to shank us in the kidneys if it looks like they might get away with it.
 
Including the Green Energy Power Plants Catherine and her father paid for, and which we cannot currently replace. It would be a real shame if some arsehole with a grudge like the Youngs of Shawnee Kingdom wrecked it because they had the impression that we lacked a standing reaction force to stop a couple hundred "bandits" or tracking the perpetrators down before their tracks faded.

Penny wise, pound foolish.

Furthermore, if you are looking to boost investor confidence, a standing army helps.
The Midwest is not quite so safe that security concerns have completely gone away for people looking to invest money and resources in the region.
Here is the reason I consider that the threat of "smaller states wreck our infrastructure" unlikely and not worth the AP cost. With Victoria currently eating itself, we are the dominant military power within the great lakes and the Atlantic coast. We will have the devil brigade at home for the next couple of turns. If the Shawnee Kingdom wrecks our stuff, we are in a position to retaliate severly, especially since we like to set the precedent "Don't mess with our stuff". If this were to come down, "Hand over the perpetrators or we will occupy you" is a very plausible scenario. So in short, the Shawnee Kingdom would need to be mind-boggingly idiotic to act in a way that gives us a casus belli against them. This is like claiming napoleonic france needs to implement a standing army to deter swiss raids. Once we go to war against them and mobilize, it's game over for them. It's also unclear how a professional army corps would help against raiding. A small, constantly training army concentrated in a few bases is less of a deterrent against raiding then the already existing militia system our constituent polities have. Our best deterrent against raiding will be our ability to retaliate against raiders, not a small army cooped in military bases.
2)The Devils will often be away from home doing one job or the other.
Finding and retrieving Aubry and his people, for example, took us a month afaicr.
A lot can happen in a month.

We made ourselves a target by being a leading advocate for Revivalism.
Taking basic security precautions seem wise. Victoria is not the only party that might be inclined to shank us in the kidneys if it looks like they might get away with it.
The primary use of a standing army is to react against surprise attacks from peer powers or to perform surprise attacks on peer powers. As long as Victoria is in a civil war, we are the power with the strongest military this side of the Rockies, even without taking the Devil Brigade into account. I think it's unlikely any neighbor thinks "Ah yes, I can totally win against the power that annihilated the victorian army before the Devil Brigade comes home next month". Instituting a standing military isn't needed in the immediate future and is certainly not a basic security precaution with respect to the cost.
Instituting the standing army will cost one action point. Maybe I'm overlooking something, but please explain to me the concrete strategic threat that requires the sacrifice of 3 free action points to contain by picking the standing army this turn instead of two turns from now.
 
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Here is the reason I consider that the threat of "smaller states wreck our infrastructure" unlikely and not worth the AP cost. With Victoria currently eating itself, we are the dominant military power within the great lakes and the Atlantic coast. We will have the devil brigade at home for the next couple of turns. If the Shawnee Kingdom wrecks our stuff, we are in a position to retaliate severly, especially since we like to set the precedent "Don't mess with our stuff". If this were to come down, "Hand over the perpetrators or we will occupy you" is a very plausible scenario. So in short, the Shawnee Kingdom would need to be mind-boggingly idiotic to act in a way that gives us a casus belli against them. This is like claiming napoleonic france needs to implement a standing army to deter swiss raids. Once we go to war against them and mobilize, it's game over for them. It's also unclear how a professional army corps would help against raiding. A small, constantly training army concentrated in a few bases is less of a deterrent against raiding then the already existing militia system our constituent polities have. Our best deterrent against raiding will be our ability to retaliate against raiders, not a small army cooped in military bases.

The primary use of a standing army is to react against surprise attacks from peer powers or to perform surprise attacks on peer powers. As long as Victoria is in a civil war, we are the power with the strongest military this side of the Rockies, even without taking the Devil Brigade into account. I think it's unlikely any neighbor thinks "Ah yes, I can totally win against the power that annihilated the victorian army before the Devil Brigade comes home next month". Instituting a standing military isn't needed in the immediate future and is certainly not a basic security precaution with respect to the cost.
Instituting the standing army will cost one action point. Maybe I'm overlooking something, but please explain to me the concrete strategic threat that requires the sacrifice of 3 free action points to contain by picking the standing army this turn instead of two turns from now.
It's not the Hand over the perpetuators scenario we worried about. It's the AP costs of doing the Hand over the perpetuators cost we worried about as any force projection or etc will eat up AP costs to mobilise.



Having said that, Poptart isn't making this a black or white situation. Both options have pros and cons, and we simply don't know what the future will bring that forces us to face which cons.
 
It's not the Hand over the perpetuators scenario we worried about. It's the AP costs of doing the Hand over the perpetuators cost we worried about as any force projection or etc will eat up AP costs to mobilise.



Having said that, Poptart isn't making this a black or white situation. Both options have pros and cons, and we simply don't know what the future will bring that forces us to face which cons.
A diplomatic confrontation over border raids doesn't start with mobilizing. It starts with us making threats (which cost us AP from the state department), then potentially mobilizing, then beating the nation in the ensuing conflict. Which assumes we mobilize rather than sending the Devil Brigade as a strike force. By comparison, a standing army costs free AP that could be used in any area. We will get two Diplo AP after this turn passively, so the AP cost of reacting to raids isn't comparable.
That's not the say a standing army is useless, it's a very good deterrent against peer powers like Victoria. But I don't think we need additional deterrents against small statelets raiding us, since our current military power is sufficient to overwhelm any of the small neighbors.
 
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A diplomatic confrontation over border raids doesn't start with mobilizing. It starts with us making threats (which cost us AP from the state department), then potentially mobilizing, then beating the nation in the ensuing conflict. Which assumes we mobilize rather than sending the Devil Brigade as a strike force. By comparison, a standing army costs free AP that could be used in any area. We will get two Diplo AP after this turn passively, so the AP cost of reacting to raids isn't comparable.
That's not the say a standing army is useless, it's a very good deterrent against peer powers like Victoria. But I don't think we need additional deterrents against small statelets raiding us, since our current military power is sufficient to overwhelm any of the small neighbors.
Or a mere army prevents raiding by "bandits"/pirates with no "backing" by our competitors.


You know, the same kind of pirate threats our standing navy has been confronting?

And a massively enlarged state with lots of security issues like a refugee crisis, goods shortages, maybe a power shortage depending on if we don't choose Green Energy or roll badly and etcetcetc.

The idea is also to "synergize" actions, so, if we keep the Devil's brigade intact, we should support it properly like a standing army. Otherwise an elite formation without the institutional support that gives a deeper logistic base, replacements for casualties and etc withers on the vine.



I .... Also disagreeing on AP. The exact text is -1 AP cost, not minus 1 AP. Kinda read that as we spent the AP now to build a standing army, in futuee, it minus 1 AP cost.
So Forging the Sword now costs 1 AP to succeed instead of its current two and etc.
 
Or a mere army prevents raiding by "bandits"/pirates with no "backing" by our competitors.


You know, the same kind of pirate threats our standing navy has been confronting?

And a massively enlarged state with lots of security issues like a refugee crisis, goods shortages, maybe a power shortage depending on if we don't choose Green Energy or roll badly and etcetcetc.
Sorry, we have been fighting pirates? When? Please point me to a QM statement where this was mentioned.
The idea is also to "synergize" actions, so, if we keep the Devil's brigade intact, we should support it properly like a standing army. Otherwise an elite formation without the institutional support that gives a deeper logistic base, replacements for casualties and etc withers on the vine.
The devil brigade will be able to replenish their losses via recruiting, even without a standing army. They will not wither and die if we form a standing army two turns from now. My argument is putting the professional army off for a couple of turns so we can use the AP on further development and army training, not "never form a standing army".

I .... Also disagreeing on AP. The exact text is -1 AP cost, not minus 1 AP. Kinda read that as we spent the AP now to build a standing army, in figure, it minus 1 AP cost.
So Forging the Sword now costs 1 AP to succeed instead of its current two and etc.
Read the exact words here.
-1 free AP in costs, in perpetuity.
Not -1 successes required for military actions (which is the way the AP needed for completing an actions are mentioned), -1 free action point. We pay a cost of one free action point. You are misinterpreting the cost of this action to actually be a boon.
 
[]Plan Tools To Make Tools
-[] Devils: Retain the Devil Brigade as an expeditionary warfare unit forming the basis of the CFC's special operations forces contingent.
Department of Defense (3/1 AP)
-[] Officer Academies 2/2 AP (0/2 successes, 56% chance to complete)
-[] Military Training Reform 1/2 AP (1/2 successes, 80% chance to complete)
Department of State (3/1 AP)
-[] Expand the Department 2/2 AP (0/2 successes, 49% chance to complete)
-[] Establish Council Representation 1/2 AP (0/1 successes, 65% chance to complete)
Department of Domestic Affairs (2/1 AP)
-[] Refugee Management 1/2 AP (0/1 successes, 75% chance to complete)
-[] Coalition Talks 1/2 AP (0/1 successes, 65% chance to complete)
Department of Development (6/3 AP)
-[] Green Energy 2/3 AP (1/3 successes, auto-pass)
-[] Infrastructure Projects 2/3 AP (0/2 successes, auto-pass)
-[] Industrial Assessment 2/3 AP (0/2 Successes, 81% chance to complete)
Department of Security (2/1 AP)
-[] Victorian Intelligence 1/2 AP (0/1 successes, 70% chance to complete)
-[] Down the Mighty Miss 1/2 AP (0/1 successes, 70% chance to complete)
Department of Technological Recovery
-[] Retraining Campaigns 1/3 AP (0/2 successes, 60% chance for 1/2)

Free AP distribution
2 Defense, 2 State, 1 Domestic, 3 Development, 1 Security = 9/ 9
Seven-Year-Plan goals: 2 free AP military, 3 free AP development, 1 free AP security = 6/3 free AP required

Reasoning:
This plan is primarily focused on getting access to industrial development options, while prioritizing training the military over forming a standing army. Three of the remaining AP are spent on preparing for the diplomatic push on the Mississippi, improving coordination with other revivalists, expanding the state department and gathering information on the Mississippi. The last free action point is spent on figuring out domestic health care, vital for securing political support and helping the refugees.
I would welcome any feedback on this plan.
 
Sorry, we have been fighting pirates? When? Please point me to a QM statement where this was mentioned.
Post in thread 'Victoria Falls: A Post-Collapse American Nation Quest [Down With Victoria!]' Victoria Falls: A Post-Collapse American Nation Quest [Down With Victoria!]

Romano lets out a breath, the exhalation fogging in the air. He peers for a moment into the pitch blackness suffusing the world for a moment. This will be his first battle; the first time he has fought anything other than disorganized river brigands. His first assault on a fortified harbor. His first engagement against other, proper naval officers, such as they are.

Practiced in dozens of night-time and otherwise actions against riverine pirates, the fleet makes best use of the last scraps of night. Even as they draw into formation, their engineers stoke the boilers for a sprint, and the ships charge in towards Buffalo's harbor. The southern parts of the docks host the Victorian Navy; that much is public knowledge. They need to make for those

The devil brigade will be able to replenish their losses via recruiting, even without a standing army. They will not wither and die if we form a standing army two turns from now. My argument is putting the professional army off for a couple of turns so we can use the AP on further development and army training, not "never form a standing army".
There's..... Some cultural issues with allowing units to directly draw recruits into themselves, it tends to strengthen trends towards warlordism and perpetuating the view that the unit is seperate from service to the state.
 
Post in thread 'Victoria Falls: A Post-Collapse American Nation Quest [Down With Victoria!]' Victoria Falls: A Post-Collapse American Nation Quest [Down With Victoria!]
Ok, our admiral has fought river brigands in the past. This doesn't amount to a pirate threats presently existing, after two phases of naval expansion and is unrelated to land based banditry. If I'm not mistaken, the integrated communities still have militia formations under our command, which could quickly mobilize in the areas raiders are acting in. The standing core action also mentions:
The Seven-Year Plan calls for a massive expansion of your military, and you know full well that you cannot sustain that expansion in the form of a standing, professionalized army. That said, having a standing army is, increasingly clearly, a requirement for the exercise and maintenance of your interests. Pick out the best of your current forces to form this force, as an instrument of power projection and the professional core of your eventual end-goal military.
The bulk of our forces will not be in the standing army. The standing army will therefore be small when compared to the rest of our forces. I don't really see any reason to assume we have a significant threat of raiders wrecking our infrastructure, or that a comparatively small standing army would be useful as a way to increase border security.
There's..... Some cultural issues with allowing units to directly draw recruits into themselves, it tends to strengthen trends towards warlordism and perpetuating the view that the unit is seperate from service to the state.
I don't see us falling into warlord-ism within two or three turns, especially with Burns being quite loyal to the political system of the Commonwealth.

I also see no reason ingame that support the idea of banditry threatening our infrastructure. If that was the case, you would think our secretary of defense would have something to say about it or give us anti-banditry options. Instead, all Bragg has to say is:
"Madame President, the Department is hard at work. We will bring no projects to your attention that do not relate to the Seven-Year Plan. We are entirely committed. Congress's cash infusion is quite welcome, as well."
Which leads me to believe we don't need to form a standing corps to deter banditry now.
 
Ok, our admiral has fought river brigands in the past. This doesn't amount to a pirate threats presently existing, after two phases of naval expansion and is unrelated to land based banditry. If I'm not mistaken, the integrated communities still have militia formations under our command, which could quickly mobilize in the areas raiders are acting in. The standing core action also mentions:

The bulk of our forces will not be in the standing army. The standing army will therefore be small when compared to the rest of our forces. I don't really see any reason to assume we have a significant threat of raiders wrecking our infrastructure, or that a comparatively small standing army would be useful as a way to increase border security.

I don't see us falling into warlord-ism within two or three turns, especially with Burns being quite loyal to the political system of the Commonwealth.

I also see no reason ingame that support the idea of banditry threatening our infrastructure. If that was the case, you would think our secretary of defense would have something to say about it or give us anti-banditry options. Instead, all Bragg has to say is:

Which leads me to believe we don't need to form a standing corps to deter banditry now.

You under the impression that our concerns still ranges around Illinois.

Post in thread 'Victoria Falls: A Post-Collapse American Nation Quest [Down With Victoria!]' Victoria Falls: A Post-Collapse American Nation Quest [Down With Victoria!]
She loses strength as she goes, and quickly, but she doesn't stop, and you marvel for a moment at the mix of admiration at her conviction and revulsion her words inspire. For a moment, you consider challenging that...but you stop. She just refused you. She just contradicted you. You won't play along with the worldview Victoria has forced on her, but you won't slap her aside. You nod, slowly "Well...we can't be Papas, Mary. That isn't us. But we can protect you. Your homes are on the far end of Lake Erie. The Navy could always use a friendly community, so far from Chicago or Detroit. And our word counts for a lot, right now. We can help to keep you safe, until you can manage it for yourselves."

Mary gives you a swift, relieved nod. "We would be very grateful for that."

And you resolve then, if only to yourself, that as long as your word is good for anything at all in the Commonwealth, that you will keep the Garden safe. That this promise, to this broken child, you will not break.
Remember this promise in game made to the Gardens ?

The Blue Mountain Farmers have agreed to construct some dock facilities to your specifications suitable to host and refuel your ships in exchange for their support in the Conference and your guarantee of their safety and independence. They have vague plans to sell crops in order to raise money for the construction, but honestly, the heavy lifting on your guarantee is being done by your reputation at this point and you have no needs earlier than the long term for a naval base in the ass-end of Lake Huron, so you can wait a bit for them to figure it out.

Yeah. Our client isn't just the newly incorporated cities of Detroit. The garden, officially the Blue Mountain Farmers have our guarantee for their safety.


Say, the Shawnee might not be able to raid us, but can they raid the Farmers to retilaliate against them supporting us and helping to shut down Young Alliance?


QM has already thrown up issues to tie us down such as the Sandusky Commune.its why having a standing army help us meet our interests and give us prestige.


Yes, I know your point is we can make the standing army in a few turns time. Note that neither Uju nor myself says that's wrong, we just stating why we would support having a standing army now, ready to help support us against such issues.
 
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You under the impression that our concerns still ranges around Illinois.
Yes, because bandits raiding aligned nations will not wreck our infrastructure. The crux of this banditry argument has been about "do we require the added protection trough a standing army", with the pro-side claiming "the cost in AP will have to be paid in infrastructure repairs otherwise". I fail to see how standing army within the commonwealth would deter raiders from acting on the periphery of allied states, or how this requires creating a standing army now.
Yeah. Our client isn't just the newly incorporated cities of Detroit. The garden, officially the Blue Mountain Farmers have our guarantee for their safety.


Say, the Shawnee might not be able to raid us, but can they raid the Farmers to retilaliate against them supporting us and helping to shut down Young Alliance?
Take a look at the map on the status screen. The Shawnee are on our southern border. The Blue Mountain Farmers are on the northeastern side of of Lake Huron. In order for this to happen, the raiding force would need to a long distance and walk on water. Unless the Shawnee have a lot of Jesus clones hidden somewhere, this isn't happening. Bad example. This also at best tangentially related to the question of "create a small standing army now or later?".
 
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