Voting is open
[ ][BURNS] Retirement and a cushy paycheck for your men. The Devils will escort Aubrey's men and equipment back to Chicago safely and as honored guests and employees. The CFC will receive four fully functional F-22s, four more that have had almost no maintenance done in nearly thirty years, and a collection of dwindling spare parts from nine others, cannibalized over the years. They will receive Aubrey's full staff of pilot aces and maintenance technicians, along with his younger crop of replacements. They will also receive his full equipment stockpile. The 388th Fighter Wing will up stakes and depart Utah forever, without a backward glance. I have made too many compromises already to stand on ideals now.

We don't want to lose out on the pilots and the technicians, which are the real gain from this mess.
 
[ ][BURNS] Retirement and a cushy paycheck for your men.
[ ][JOHNSON] Reveal the Declaration.
-[ ] Movement Structure.
--[ ] Federal Coordination
--[ ] New States

Here's hoping that with the overthrow of the Russian in Cali and the revelation of the declaration, the conference breaks out into "Oh Say Can You See" with an F-22 flyover. :cool:
Mark that one down as, "Profoundly unlikely." :p
 
[ ][BURNS] Retirement and a cushy paycheck for your men.

[ ][JOHNSON] Reveal the Declaration. Rebelling against Russia will do much to improve California's popular standing as a Revivalist leader -- at least, east of the Rockies, where tales of their conquests are distant. Revealing the Declaration at the same time could undercut a lot of that.

--[ ] Towards A Larger Union. Perhaps your dreams are extravagant; perhaps you simply long wistfully for a day when your nation is truly unassailable by all but the mightiest and most undistracted force. Either way, you are absolutely thrilled by the attendance of actors from beyond traditionally American borders. You will push to incorporate every attendee to the Conference into the Revivalist agenda.
 
Since California is fighting Russia can this be considered a Battle between two Bears? Also does anyone think the war in California is going to effect the transportation of the Raptors?
 
Movement Structure:
I'm opposed to Revivalist Leadership and Federal Coordination based solely on practicality. Declaring ourselves the continental hegemon would be taken as a delusion of grandeur, given that we barely just nailed down our local neighbor, and would undoubtedly cause other would-be unifiers to oppose us. Federal Coordination, however, runs into the problem of enforcement. Having a central body in charge of attempting to arbitrate between hundreds of states of various size and belligerence would quickly be bogged down and would suffer from disunity as the few states strong enough to enough its ruling could just ignore them, decreasing the prestige and ineffectiveness. In fact, we actually already know how this would turn out, given that its literally just the United Nations in Miniature . Needless to say, regardless of your thoughts on the actual UN, the notion that it could even unite the world into single government is a pipedream.

Therefore the only options are to allow local powers to better focus on local concerns, especially with the lack of infrastructure that a new US would actually need to actively rule the nation. I support Regional Blocs because it would, ironically, actually benefit the smaller states more and prevent them from being ignored, as Local Leadership has us directly endorsing the more powerful players enforcing their will in their areas, which is exactly what we are trying to prevent the NCR from doing. Regional Blocs will instead force them to have to put on the appearance of diplomacy with their neighbors.

Membership Limits:
Old Country, New Country is out. It ignores the political realities of the current North America, and putting territory over ideals is a bad idea anyways. Honestly, I'm fine with either New States or Towards A Larger Union, but am leaning towards the latter. Old World Nostalgia aside, revivalism at its core is based on the idea of undoing the shattering of your home nations, and reuniting into a prosperous world power. Regardless of what Nation you identify as, being able to legitimize and gain recognition for your efforts would be attractive to any revivalist power.
 
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Isn't July 4 a bit too obvious a date for California to have it's revolt? Though I suppose the people on the streets of Los Angeles and Sacramento will catch on quicker.
The symbolism and propaganda value is a big part of the reason, yeah.

I wonder how Cali plans to fight off both Russia and Japan
Probably counting on neither Russia nor Japan being able to spare much actual manpower to fight an enemy with semi-modern weapons and air defenses good enough to slap down drone strikes. Worst case, relying on the nuclear deterrent.

There is also little reason not to integrate Canada, since the diplomatic and internal pressure keeping them independent are gone.
Then again, Canadians' views on this matter may vary.

Mexico is a different beast, with much more hostility between both nations historically. But municipalities in northern Mexico might want to join the Revivalist State, seeing being part of the 2nd USA as the better option than diplomatically subordinate to them.
Then again, the reverse might be true, especially if Mexico is making its economic recovery faster.

Honestly, if this ends with Mexico getting Texas back or something, I'm not going to complain. We've had nothing but trouble with the place. :p

Having eliminated the dumb option, we now have the question of pushing for "New States" or "Towards A Larger Union". It's essentially a question of how pushy we want to be with our diplomacy. "New States" amounts to saying "You can join us, if you want too", while "Towards A Larger Union" means handing out pamphlets about the good word of revivalism and asking people if they really don't want to join. While pushy diplomacy has it's use, I think that use isn't in getting a transcontinental movement started smoothly. "New States" might bring less people into the fold, but we will also avoid burning bridges with people who don't want to be included.
"New States" is also fairly consistent with the CFC's existing style of expansion and probably interfaces well with its skill set.

Everything has it's disadvantages. "Revivalist Leadership" is highly egocentric and will cause the most friction with California, Federal Coordination will risks leadership breakdowns during regional disputes, local leadership entrenches local interest to the detriment of common ones, while regional blocks will make unification harder due to friction between the designated regional blocks. I'm currently leaning towards Federal Coordination, since integrating the country will be a tough enough task as is, but it also means painting a target on our back. I would argue it is worth it, but not everyone might feel that way.
Yeah, I'm feeling "federal" too.

Killing Aubrey and his men won't undo what they did, they best thing to do at this point is to make sure those they killed didn't die in vain.
It also gets him and his troops out of the region. If we tried to kill them all and take their stuff it probably wouldn't actually result in all his troops dying, and the remnants would remain a problem in the area even if the locals would probably hunt them down eventually without Aubrey's central leadership and the actual air power.

This way they're just... gone.

Also, we have a few dozen pilots of our own who are, in practice, just as experienced as any of his who are still fit to fly. We don't need his men, except possibly for the maintenance training aspect.

With the NCR going rebel, Victoria just lost its free planes and tech, now Russian is gonna have to give them free stuff
On the other hand, the free stuff the Russians give them may well be better than the free stuff the Californians give them. California's F-16V production for the Vicks was a crappy export model of a fighter whose basic design is 80-100 years old, with the modifications all being made to specifications given by fucking morons. The Russians of today probably legitimately do not have available any military hardware that old and shitty, without making a special effort to rummage it up purely to cater to the Vicks' military fetishes. Which they almost certainly will not do.

Since California is fighting Russia can this be considered a Battle between two Bears? Also does anyone think the war in California is going to effect the transportation of the Raptors?
Any warfare in California is happening hundreds of miles west of Major Aubrey's base in Utah. It is unlikely to have a direct effect.

If anything it may be to our advantage, because Russian satellite and reconnaissance assets will be far too busy trying to get a detailed picture of what the fuck is going on on the West Coast. They won't have time to pay much attention to caravans or cargo planes passing from Utah through Denver and over the Great Plains towards CFC territory.
 
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I think we need to take into consideration the optics of taking in Aubrey. However this goes down, we won't be able to keep it secret. And that will almost certainly have knock-on effects on the rest of our choices here.

So, I offer two plans.

[ ][BURNS] Fuck the details. Aubrey dies, and the Devils storm the compound and hangar. With their equipment and training, they can overcome the defenses without serious losses. They will take what prisoners they can and secure the equipment they're able to, but there will certainly be losses. Any survivors will be returned to the CFC as uncooperative prisoners. Members of the 388th further afield will be hunted down as the Devils return to the CFC, as practical, but some will undoubtedly slip the net. I have crossed many lines in my life, but this is one I will not condone.

[ ][JOHNSON] Reveal the Declaration. Rebelling against Russia will do much to improve California's popular standing as a Revivalist leader -- at least, east of the Rockies, where tales of their conquests are distant. Revealing the Declaration at the same time could undercut a lot of that.

[ ][STRATEGY] Plan Come One, Come All
-[ ] Movement Structure. One of your basic objectives here is to promote a framework for gradually greater levels of reunification in a manner that should prevent the race for advantage in the reunification process from ruining the Country. It is worth noting that, given your regional prominence, you will assuredly have significant influence over any Revivalist agenda regardless of structure. Notes on how much influence you will have are entirely relative.
--[ ] Federal Coordination. You will call for the establishment of a regulatory body to head the Revivalist movement, with representatives from all the powers here and the mandate to organize the movement and formally begin to designate responsible authorities for the task of reunifying. First in terms of recognizing who is the legitimate government of contested areas, and then how to manage the job of organizing larger and larger unifications of territory. While this will theoretically invest everybody in the movement, prevent abuses if the body's enforcement power is maintained, and lead to a tradition of strong and motivated participation in the central government, it will mean ceding much control of the process and risk the whole thing breaking down if disputes grow too energetic and cannot be resolved. This is not a government. It is basically an always-in-session conference to arbitrate disputes between Revivalist chapters. This is not a government. Mutually exclusive with, "Revivalist Leadership," Local Leadership," and, "Regional Blocs."
-[ ] Membership Limits. You have attracted attendees from far and wide, not restricted to the borders of the old United States.
--[ ] New States. You admitted foreign interests to the Conference, and you are not opposed to their inclusion in the Revivalist movement. America, to you, is not a set of political borders or a nationality, but a civic ideal, and you are minded to allow those interested in being included a voice. You will push to include those parties with an interest in joining the Revivalist movement's ultimate agenda, be they from regions belonging to the United States or not. Mutually exclusive with, "Old Country, New Country," and, "Towards a Larger Union."

Aubrey dies, we establish precedent on what lines are acceptable and work together with other willing Revivalists to put to rebuild a nation.

[ ][BURNS] Retirement and a cushy paycheck for your men. The Devils will escort Aubrey's men and equipment back to Chicago safely and as honored guests and employees. The CFC will receive four fully functional F-22s, four more that have had almost no maintenance done in nearly thirty years, and a collection of dwindling spare parts from nine others, cannibalized over the years. They will receive Aubrey's full staff of pilot aces and maintenance technicians, along with his younger crop of replacements. They will also receive his full equipment stockpile. The 388th Fighter Wing will up stakes and depart Utah forever, without a backward glance. I have made too many compromises already to stand on ideals now.

[ ][JOHNSON] Reveal the Declaration. Rebelling against Russia will do much to improve California's popular standing as a Revivalist leader -- at least, east of the Rockies, where tales of their conquests are distant. Revealing the Declaration at the same time could undercut a lot of that.

[ ][STRATEGY] Plan Future North American Union
-[ ] Movement Structure. One of your basic objectives here is to promote a framework for gradually greater levels of reunification in a manner that should prevent the race for advantage in the reunification process from ruining the Country. It is worth noting that, given your regional prominence, you will assuredly have significant influence over any Revivalist agenda regardless of structure. Notes on how much influence you will have are entirely relative.
--[ ] Regional Blocs. A general coordinating council risks a disagreement in one region annihilating the movement's progress across the Country. You will call to establish regional regulatory bodies to coordinate the administration of the Revivalist Movement on a regional basis. These bodies will then negotiate with each other concerning broader reunifications once their own tasks are complete. This will improve coordination on a local level and hedge against catastrophic failure, but will mean local failures have vastly less ability to gain support from the wider movement and will massively complicate any final Revival. Mutually Exclusive with, "Revivalist Leadership," "Federal Coordination," and, "Local Leadership."
-[ ] Membership Limits. You have attracted attendees from far and wide, not restricted to the borders of the old United States.
--[ ] Towards A Larger Union. Perhaps your dreams are extravagant; perhaps you simply long wistfully for a day when your nation is truly unassailable by all but the mightiest and most undistracted force. Either way, you are absolutely thrilled by the attendance of actors from beyond traditionally American borders. You will push to incorporate every attendee to the Conference into the Revivalist agenda. Mutually exclusive with, "Old Country, New Country," and, "New States."

Take in Aubrey, but acknowledge the inherit hypocrisy of the action means we cannot dictate what Revivalist means in distant places. Places like old Colorado.
 
-[ ] Movement Structure. One of your basic objectives here is to promote a framework for gradually greater levels of reunification in a manner that should prevent the race for advantage in the reunification process from ruining the Country. It is worth noting that, given your regional prominence, you will assuredly have significant influence over any Revivalist agenda regardless of structure. Notes on how much influence you will have are entirely relative.
--[ ] Revivalist Leadership. You believe that the CFC is best positioned, of all powers, to serve as the sole foundation for a renewed American state. You will push, and hard, for the movement to look to you for leadership and support, lending influence and opportunity...but also costs, and greedy eyes. Mutually exclusive with, "Federal Coordination," "Local Leadership," and, "Regional Blocs."
--[ ] Federal Coordination. You will call for the establishment of a regulatory body to head the Revivalist movement, with representatives from all the powers here and the mandate to organize the movement and formally begin to designate responsible authorities for the task of reunifying. First in terms of recognizing who is the legitimate government of contested areas, and then how to manage the job of organizing larger and larger unifications of territory. While this will theoretically invest everybody in the movement, prevent abuses if the body's enforcement power is maintained, and lead to a tradition of strong and motivated participation in the central government, it will mean ceding much control of the process and risk the whole thing breaking down if disputes grow too energetic and cannot be resolved. This is not a government. It is basically an always-in-session conference to arbitrate disputes between Revivalist chapters. This is not a government. Mutually exclusive with, "Revivalist Leadership," Local Leadership," and, "Regional Blocs."
--[ ] Local Leadership. The job of Revival is too vast for any one country to undertake, and you will not pretend that the CFC is the perfect state. You will push for several powerful or notable actors in various regions to take up the job of regional leadership of the Revivalist movement, with the understanding that coordinating the movement at the national level will be done through those actors. This will instantly receive the support of those notable actors in the process and simplify things tremendously, but it will mean that when the time comes to come together at last, you will be negotiating with very powerful and entrenched interests. Mutually exclusive with, "Revivalist Leadership," "Federal Coordination," and, "Regional Blocs."
--[ ] Regional Blocs. A general coordinating council risks a disagreement in one region annihilating the movement's progress across the Country. You will call to establish regional regulatory bodies to coordinate the administration of the Revivalist Movement on a regional basis. These bodies will then negotiate with each other concerning broader reunifications once their own tasks are complete. This will improve coordination on a local level and hedge against catastrophic failure, but will mean local failures have vastly less ability to gain support from the wider movement and will massively complicate any final Revival. Mutually Exclusive with, "Revivalist Leadership," "Federal Coordination," and, "Local Leadership."
The question of how to achieve the liberation of the nation from foreign oppressors and the unification of the nation has come! I believe it would helpful to bring up historical counterparts of this options.

The Revivalist Leadership option is basically embracing what is referred to as Piedmontism. It is the idea that the nationalist unification or reunification should be centered on the most militarily, industrially, influential, and recognized state within the greater nation. Unification is to be achieved through that state conquering the rest of the nation or the rest of the nation breaking away from the their foreign or local oppressors to form little states that will quickly merge into the already independent leading state. Examples included Sardinia-Piedmont for Italy, Prussia for Germany, and Serbia for Yugoslavia. Problems are resentment toward the dominating position of the leading state before and after unification as well as competition for the position of the leading state but this model of leadership has been relatively successful in creating the desired united nation-state historically.

Federal Coordination is creating a coordination congress or council to guide unification and integration. This is usually the first option that pan-nationalist unification movements start with. I think most of the 19th century versions of this idea failed due to lack of military strength to back the body or due to disagreements between member states, but these organizations did help plant the idea of unification in the minds of people. This idea has have much greater success in the 20th and 21th century with Pan-European organizations and bodies peacefully encouraging and guiding the process toward greater European unification and integration. This option will cause the least resentment between the states of the nation if successful. However, this model of integration over decades may be too slow and unwieldly for our purposes.

Local Leadership is basically the revivalist leadership option on a smaller regional scale. The historical example that comes to mind is Prussia -> North German Confederation -> German Empire. This makes regional unification simpler but makes national unification harder. Having regional powers with very powerful and entrenched interests can potentially foil full national unification or cause the collapse of the unified state years down the line. If the differences between the regional leaders are too great to cross, people may have to settle for a lesser unification. The historical example would be the conflict between Prussia and Austria for German leadership being too great leading to Kleindeutschland or Germany without the Austrian parts. Basically requires a federal or confederate national state for peace and stability.

Regional Blocs is basically Federal Coordination on a smaller regional scale. I personally dislike this option as I feel that it combines the drawbacks of both local leadership and federal coordination together which will be too great to overcome. I cannot think of a successful historical example for this option off the top of my head.


-[ ] Membership Limits. You have attracted attendees from far and wide, not restricted to the borders of the old United States.
--[ ] Old Country, New Country. You believe that Revivalism is for the restoration of the United States of America. While powers from outside the Country have arrived to show an interest, and the exact shape of borders may not match, you will seek to oppose the inclusion of, "foreign," groups in the grand Revivalist strategy. You will attempt to include only factions holding American territory in the Revivalist agenda. Mutually exclusive with, "New States," and, "Towards A Larger Union."
--[ ] New States. You admitted foreign interests to the Conference, and you are not opposed to their inclusion in the Revivalist movement. America, to you, is not a set of political borders or a nationality, but a civic ideal, and you are minded to allow those interested in being included a voice. You will push to include those parties with an interest in joining the Revivalist movement's ultimate agenda, be they from regions belonging to the United States or not. Mutually exclusive with, "Old Country, New Country," and, "Towards a Larger Union."
--[ ] Towards A Larger Union. Perhaps your dreams are extravagant; perhaps you simply long wistfully for a day when your nation is truly unassailable by all but the mightiest and most undistracted force. Either way, you are absolutely thrilled by the attendance of actors from beyond traditionally American borders. You will push to incorporate every attendee to the Conference into the Revivalist agenda. Mutually exclusive with, "Old Country, New Country," and, "New States."
-[ ] Write-in. As ever, go ahead and tag me with write-ins you want considered, and I will rule on them up until the vote opens.
We have a bunch of connected peoples in a region with each a strong sense of nationalism already under foreign domination seeking freedom, these peoples have had a long history of both cooperation and resentment between each other, these peoples can be found in a regional homeland as well as in sizable minority communities scattered around the region, and some of these peoples live in mixed communities that does not fit in conveniently with old historical border lines. Some folks want to create or recreate a state with just their people and they are willing to create that state at the expense of the other peoples of the region. Meanwhile, others want to create a new state that will unite all the peoples of the region together where formerly rival peoples will live in harmony. Where have we seen this happen before? We have seen this in the Balkans with the question of creating Yugoslavia versus a Greater Serbia or Croatia. The example of Yugoslavia tells us that we must tread carefully here.

We can work for the merely the restoration of an unified state within the borders of the old United States or an expanded American nation or work towards a North American Union that includes Americans, Canadians, and Mexicans which would be a North American version of Yugoslavia. Can the American, Canadian, and Mexican nations really live under one roof in Brotherhood and Unity? Would Americans or English speakers overly dominate the proposed North American Union? Would American revivalists really be happy with bringing Canadians and Mexicans onto the agenda. Historically, many Serbian nationalists were enraged by the creation of Yugoslavia instead of a greater Serbia and then tried to destroy Yugoslavia or turn Yugoslavia into a greater Serbia in all but name. On the other hand, enforcing the old borders has major problems of its own. A lot of Mexicans moved north of the Rio Grande before and after the collapse. Some Mexican states now extend north of the Rio Grande. Enforcing the Rio Grande border would cause potentially a violent conflict with the Mexican revivalists and serious ethical strife. What if the Mexicans decide if the future Mexican nation-state should include Texas if we go to war with the Mexicans? What if a future Canadian state decides to object to the annexation of Windsor by the CFC? Creating a new state for Americans, Canadians, and Mexicans where they can freely move in could address this problem or maybe an association of an independent America, Canada, and Mexico would be a better solution?
 
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Its back!
COMMENTARY
-Denver sounds strategic.
Denver-Omaha-DesMoines-Chicago corridor for western trade. If we can get them to more proactively patrol their end of that route, we might be able to improve continental trade really quickly.

-Delegate Hicks behavior makes it pretty obvious that the NCR didnt send their best.
Makes sense that at a time like this theyd send their best diplomats to major powers like China and the EU, and financial centers like NYC. Still a little disappointing they're not even trying to put their best foot forward here.

Consider the difference with when Stella was here, who might have been blunt, but had a personal connection that gave her the leeway to be brusque, had the juice to back it up, and didnt blow that juice nitpicking petty bullshit.
One gets the impression we're dealing with different factions of the NCR natsec apparatus, with different opinions.

-Neither of the named reservations here represents more than 10,000 people IRL.
Even assuming they are combined an order of magnitude larger inquest than they are irl, they'd still represent only around 0.25% of California's real life population, let alone the NCR's population after 40 years of immigration and population growth from the interior.

Delegate Hicks therefore comes off very badly. Especially since other delegations from the NCR occasioned no comment.


-On the other hand?
The fact that a group as small as some of the Native American tribes of the NCR felt free to openly attend a revivalist conference in defiance of the NCR govt implies promising things about the relative freedom and political traditions of the NCR.

-Worth remembering that the NCR do have their own historic grievances. The enemy forces during the Pacific War were Vic-led and -supplied but not primarily of Vic origins, and based out of their neighboring states. Those complaining about California doing Russia's bidding at gunpoint to survive did the bidding of Victoria and its Russian masters at gunpoint to survive.

Everyone has legitimate grievances.

-The Mexican Mutual Assistance League?
While they did not get their shit trashed like much of Middle America? Are not peers of the NCR, hobbled or nah.

Multiple decades of being formally disconnected citystates does not result in the economic strength to make such claims. Just the fact that the NCR remained capable of instituting universal education puts them well ahead of a league of citystates. Never mind the industry; pre-Collapse Cali had an economy 2.5x the size of pre-Collapse united Mexico.

There's a reason Russia wasnt wielding them against the US border states.

And they started from a lower industrial and economic base than the NCR in the first place.
Nor would they have the power projection to pose a military threat anyway. At best they can act as conduits for foreign actors.
They're just bluffing, and hoping we wont take the risk of calling their bluff.

Just goes to show Sara isnt up to date with foreign policy assessments.
But I'll note that we suffered the Shawnee Kingdom. And Princess Katherine.
We can suffer them until and unless they cross our red lines.


-
"I-!" You stop, physically snapping your head away to break line of sight and make yourself settle. "...I know," you seethe. "And I know that I can't judge them, but...Sara, their neighbors hate them. We've had meeting after meeting with groups living within their borders making the point that they see the Californians as conquerors! We can't take the risk of leaving the Country to them! Sure, maybe they could make it happen, but this is the wrong way for it and even if it were the right way for the country California has become, they still probably have to fight the Russians and the Japanese before they get the chance!" You rise to your feet during this, matching your friend's stance.
Its worth noting that you'd hear from the people who have beef with them first.
Those who are content, grudgingly or not, dont talk.
Their neighbors are all low population states or Japanese colonies.

I guess this is where Second Sarah reminds First Sarah about the War of Independence and all the Loyalists.
Or the American Civil War.
Violence was always baked into the Country's foundational DNA.
You take a long second to just breathe, hands clenching. "...yes," you hiss, trying to breathe out the tension in your shoulders. "I remember. But the fact remains: California is a state whose primary tool of foreign outreach for the past few decades has been an invading army or the threat of one. If they were going to be the state that brought the Country back together...well, frankly, we needed to die to Victoria. California needed a chance to be the hero. There's too much bad blood for people to ignore, otherwise. But we killed Victoria. Whether anybody likes it or not, now everybody's eyes are on us. Nobody's going to look to California now to save them. You agreed with me, Sara; we still have to outplay them."
This doesnt really seem to match up with the facts.
The NCR risked their own rebellion and their international arms trade reputation in order to sabotage the Vics and give the Commonwealth a chance at making a go of things, in exchange for a nebulous promise of future diplomatic concessions.

If that was true, if they wanted the CFC dead as a sacrifice, all they would have had to do was sit on their hands and do nothing.
At worst, pass on some intelligence information so the Commonwealth could bleed the Vics. And they certainly wouldnt have gone to the trouble of telling the Commonwealth when they were planning on kicking off their own rebellion, if only for security reasons.

The fact that we got advance warning of Cali kicking off, instead of being told after things popped off, or hearing it on the news, is in and of itself a major gesture of trust.
Sarah's conclusions here are questionable.

Its fine to disagree about how to put the country back and in what order.
But the handwringing about California's motives or the illegitimacy of violence dont ring true. Not from someone whose foreign policy has Victoria delenda est as a foundational principle.

Especially since we're hoping them to care enough that we shelter under their nuclear umbrella.


-There's no way Aubrey actually built this base in the late 2040s/ early 2050s, after the Pacific War.
Closest airport to Goblin is Moab. You dont land Raptors or Falcons or Eagles in the Utah desert without the benefit of a pre-existing airstrip or the handling equipment.

And you dont design under-rock supervillain bases without a dedicated engineering corps who can design it properly so it does not collapse on you at some point in the last three decades. Just think of all the concrete and steel necessary.
Or the power generation.

Ten to one the work was mostly done pre-Collapse by the US Air Force when there was fuel and an army engineering corps.
And Aubrey only added some finishing touches and moved in.

-Major Aubrey sounds very much like an argument for why AF officers need more command experience.

Probably a good pilot and leader of pilots, but very much lacks the aptitude or attention to detail for managing ground forces.
If I have to bet, at least part of the grievances of the locals will be due to a lack of discipline of his ground troops among the civilian population; old people should not be terrified at the sound of rotors.

Still his responsibility for the mess.
OTOH, dying man. Either emphysema or lung cancer, if I had to make a guess.
We're not going to have to put up with him for long.

And frankly, I think its more than a little skeevy to use the Big Red One as effectively executioners.


-If I had to guess, between pilots, ground crew, maintenance and other support personnel, ground forces and their families, we're looking at several thousand people here minimum. Plus planes and support equipment. Thats a lot to move overland. I hope there are working C130s in those revetments so we can at least fly out the more portable stuff before moving the rest overland.

I wonder if Aubry has a nuke somewhere in those supplies of his.

Looking at the voting options
[]Retirement and a Paycheck
[]Revivalist Leadership OR Federal Coordination
[]New States OR Larger Union
[]Reveal The Declaration


We attempted to flip the dude who assassinated Jameson. One of our allies is the MSR. We gave Toledo Joe a pension. We are currently in the process of dealing with people who price gouged us in the middle of a food shortage. We did a deal with Imperial Princess Catherine. We just backed Bemidji against Minneapolis but we did not demand that the govt of Minneapolis had to pay for their years of banditry. Just that they stop.

Part of our founding policy was a tacit recognition that we cant afford to ding everyone for stuff done during the Collapse.
We can hold our nose this time as well.

Those Raptors are 60 year old planes at this point; the last one was built in 2011/2012. Fighter planes are not generally supposed to last that long. Still valuable bargaining chips but Im rather doubtful about how many months or years of flight time they still have on their airframes. More important are the crews and the cargo aircraft. They had to have C130s/ C17s/V280s to move their support crews when they left Cali.

We're at war. The more collegiate the decisionmaking process, the more feasible it is for foreign entities or domestic ones to stall or influence decisionmaking by feeding inducements to one of the parties involved in adjudicating disputes or setting up institutions. Or just by assassinating key members at critical junctures. The lessons of Confederacy in US history loom large.

Which is why I'd prefer Revivalist Leadership, with Federal Coordination as a distant runnerup.
Dunno if we can convince others of this though.

Reveal the Declaration.
Easy choice. Third Centennial. The thematic resonance is irresistible, and if we announce it we can get professional care for it and use the publicity as protection for it. Especially useful if we're going down the Mandate of Heaven route.
 
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Aubrey is fucking scum. But we need those planes and those pilots right the fuck now. If damning ourselves to hell is the cost to reunite America, then so be it.
Is he?
Forced labor by 400-some conscripts to finish his underground base. Unknown casualties, if any. It certainly wasnt done by hand, so you can ignore any fantasies of Bataan Death March bullshit. His soldiers are paranoid and shit, but they have been attacked before.

I suspect Aubrey did not kill or terrorize anywhere as many people per capita as Minneapolis did in their coup detat against the State government. Or the Shawnee Kingdom in making itself a monarchy.
Or the Michigan Soviet Republic.

Or those of our neighbors who raised food prices during a refugee crisis and caused us deaths as we had to spend effort there while weathering a Housing crisis. He certainly did not host and supply any Vic raiders, or turn a blind eye to child trafficking in his area of influence by Vic suppliers.

Like Second Sarah said, a LOT of people here in the here and now cannot bear to stand in the spotlight for their pre-Accord activities.
 
Just goes to show Sara isnt up to date with foreign policy assessments.
But I'll note that we suffered the Shawnee Kingdom. And Princess Katherine.
We can suffer them until and unless they cross our red lines.
The Mexicans are both far from being anywhere close to as distasteful as Shawnee and Katherine, and really kind of justified in their wariness of a reassembled United States. Not only should we not treat them as such, we shouldn't even think of them in terms of Shawnee or Katherine because that only leads us to frame every further interaction with them with hostility. The Mexicans have potential to be a friendly backer and ally and a check on Californian ambitions, if not a peer of theirs a major consideration they cannot treat trivially (befote you misinterpret this, I am thinking them as the kind of hedging that allies do with each other all the time rather than the start of a rivalry with the NCR). Even considering them a hostile power on par with Shawnee is a dangerous line of thinking lest that end in that classic quest issue of self-reinforcing loops of thinking, wherein everything we see serves only to further justify a preconceived notion.
Aubrey is fucking scum. But we need those planes and those pilots right the fuck now. If damning ourselves to hell is the cost to reunite America, then so be it.
Implicitly, by virtue of our scale and our actions, we have done far worse to far more people. We were explicitly a coalition of former warlord states at game start. This almost invariably included a bandit kingdom in the mix. We are explicitly close allies, with, once again, a Stalinist dictatorship in the MSR and a kleptocrat warlord in Traverse City. During the Erie War, we depopulated the land area between Detroit and Toledo and then bombarded the land into a ruin. We incorporated Toledo, a hypermilitarized warlord state that collaborated with Victoria. The warlord was allowed to retire a hero. His second in command is now a member of our military command staff. His forces now make half of our military. When we discussed Minneapolis, a state that runs as a bandit kingdom over a much larger, more populated region than the 388th Fighter Wing did, we discussed only not recognizing their control over most of Minnesota, rather than invading them and executing their leadership. Our key partner in our southward expansion down the Mississippi is the Dixon family in St. Louis, who are apparently running a literal mafia state. Our leadership then stated they had no grounds to claim moral superiority over said mafia state. The NCR dxpanded its control over the West Coast by military force. They may claim to have fought clean, humane wars. The very phrase is insulting and absurd; the NCR is well tolerated and even accepted and we might well have been playing them, which if we were we would be rushing to defend our own moral superiority. If we were the NCR, we would likely be calling the Commonwealth scum for having hosted Andrew Division during the collapse, and our words would be just as empty and hypocritical. If we implicitly accept that we must judge every action taken during the collapse to such lofty moral standards and a purely deontological viewpoint we will have to be implicitly hostile to every polity meet, including our own, we also critically compromise a needed foundational myth (some people think we can afford to slaughter all our sacred cows during the unification process; I consider that unviable if we want to create any appealing narrative, and a national narrative will be almost mandatory to motivating our soldiery and populace) during our formative years unless we intend on implicitly accepting hypocracy as national policy.
 
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Is he?
Forced labor by 400-some conscripts to finish his underground base. Unknown casualties, if any. It certainly wasnt done by hand, so you can ignore any fantasies of Bataan Death March bullshit. His soldiers are paranoid and shit, but they have been attacked before.

I suspect Aubrey did not kill or terrorize anywhere as many people per capita as Minneapolis did in their coup detat against the State government. Or the Shawnee Kingdom in making itself a monarchy.
Or the Michigan Soviet Republic.
You don't get a reputation as the horrible bandit king by having a few people dig a slightly larger room for a few weeks. You are focusing on one part of the story (how plausible is it that Aubrey created completely new storage facilities) and completely ignore the part where the locals stare daggers at anybody who seems like they want to work with Aubrey. A coup is something happening in a limited time frame, while Aubrey resorted to forced labor, consistently killed merchants and engaged in banditry up to this day for the sake of maintaining fighters. Even if the formation of the new government involved a higher death toll as you hypothesize, which is a big if, at least it was done for the sake of living humans rather than a better future army.
 
I think we should do toward a larger union since on discord they said it would be more trying to actively recruit states to join us which I am perfectly okay with just giving them a pitch for joining
 
I think we should do toward a larger union since on discord they said it would be more trying to actively recruit states to join us which I am perfectly okay with just giving them a pitch for joining
Just to be clear, both "New States" and "Towards A Larger Union" include pitches for recruiting states. "Towards A Larger Union" means pushing everyone to declare themselves part of the coming government, which will cause friction with locals seeing themselves as observers or just allies to the new government. I think we should take it slow and not pressure people on the fence to much. This revivalist movement just started, many will want to see it work out for a few years before joining them. The last thing we need is to be seen as a potential threat by non-revivalists.
New States. You admitted foreign interests to the Conference, and you are not opposed to their inclusion in the Revivalist movement. America, to you, is not a set of political borders or a nationality, but a civic ideal, and you are minded to allow those interested in being included a voice. You will push to include those parties with an interest in joining the Revivalist movement's ultimate agenda, be they from regions belonging to the United States or not.
Towards A Larger Union. Perhaps your dreams are extravagant; perhaps you simply long wistfully for a day when your nation is truly unassailable by all but the mightiest and most undistracted force. Either way, you are absolutely thrilled by the attendance of actors from beyond traditionally American borders. You will push to incorporate every attendee to the Conference into the Revivalist agenda.
 
Just to be clear, both "New States" and "Towards A Larger Union" include pitches for recruiting states. "Towards A Larger Union" means pushing everyone to declare themselves part of the coming government, which will cause friction with locals seeing themselves as observers or just allies to the new government. I think we should take it slow and not pressure people on the fence to much. This revivalist movement just started, many will want to see it work out for a few years before joining them. The last thing we need is to be seen as a potential threat by non-revivalists.
err the way I am reading it is that it saying that only those who have expressed a stated interst in joining we will try to have join, that toward a larger union will be pushing every attende toward it, but if push come to shove and they say no, then we will back off, I prefer trying to get as many people to join as possible
 
The Mexicans are both far from being anywhere close to as distasteful as Shawnee and Katherine, and really kind of justified in their wariness of a reassembled United States. Not only should we not treat them as such, we shouldn't even think of them in terms of Shawnee or Katherine because that only leads us to frame every further interaction with them with hostility. The Mexicans have potential to be a friendly backer and ally and a check on Californian ambitions, if not a peer of theirs a major consideration they cannot treat trivially (befote you misinterpret this, I am thinking them as the kind of hedging that allies do with each other all the time rather than the start of a rivalry with the NCR). Even considering them a hostile power on par with Shawnee is a dangerous line of thinking lest that end in that classic quest issue of self-reinforcing loops of thinking, wherein everything we see serves only to further justify a preconceived notion.
Historical reasons or not do not justify walking into another country's conferences and making threats.

Making those kinds of threats are straight up the sort of thing you may be forced to back up in the future. And I can pretty much guarantee they lack the ability to do so in any sort of reasonable timeframe. I understand why the QM did it as a narrative device, but its still diplomatic malpractice, and it implicitly sets the Mexican League up as antagonists.

The Mexicans are not any kind of check on California's ambitions.
California is in the weight class where their principal military antagonists are Russia and Japan. They are a player on the Pacific Rim. The Mexican League are not. Its that simple.

NCR builds late model Abrams and F35s and nukes. They build their own aircraft and vehicles.
RL Mexico have 4x F-5 fighters in total, and their heaviest vehicles are APCs. The League here dont inherit much military equipment from the old Mexican Armed Forces, and they havent had a unified military in decades. California has.

And they certainly do not have the spare economic ouput to be a backer.
You don't get a reputation as the horrible bandit king by having a few people dig a slightly larger room for a few weeks. You are focusing on one part of the story (how plausible is it that Aubrey created completely new storage facilities) and completely ignore the part where the locals stare daggers at anybody who seems like they want to work with Aubrey. A coup is something happening in a limited time frame, while Aubrey resorted to forced labor, consistently killed merchants and engaged in banditry up to this day for the sake of maintaining fighters. Even if the formation of the new government involved a higher death toll as you hypothesize, which is a big if, at least it was done for the sake of living humans rather than a better future army.
Sure you can. All it needs is one or two memorable incidents as a seed.

Then you milk that reputation and oulive most of your contemporaries for two decades. Drop napalm on one set of attackers and your reputation is set. Especially since in disorganized America, a reputation as the horrible bandit king can be legitimately a good thing as a deterrent against other adventurers when you lack the manpower for seriousface ground combat.

The Big Red One had much the same idea. Hellfire is not a name you earn as a term of endearment.

Im reasonably sure Aubry's men do have a deserved reputation for heavy handedness; old women dont scare at rotorcraft without reason to do so. Given what they had in storage, paranoia about Russians would be reasonable. And their population is not really big enough to support large ground forces, so I can certainly see them thinking terror is an appropriate tool to apply.

But this is a post-stamp sized piece of Utah maybe 30 to 50 miles or so across at best, and the population is not huge nor is the land particularly profitable. Its almost certain their reputation is exaggerated. They certainly were not shooting merchants when they rely on some trade(with what trade goods, I have no idea) to keep their shit in working order.
 
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Sure you can. All it needs is one or two memorable incidents as a seed.

Then you milk that reputation and oulive most of your contemporaries for two decades. Drop napalm on one set of attackers and your reputation is set. Especially since in disorganized America, a reputation as the horrible bandit king can be legitimately a good thing as a deterrent against other adventurers when you lack the manpower for seriousface ground combat.
I do find it plausible that Aubrey deliberately cultivated his reputation as a bandit king. This doesn't mean he is actually a respectable person, even if he is really just as bad as Burns.
They certainly were not shooting merchants when they rely on some trade(with what trade goods, I have no idea) to keep their shit in working order.
Local grain merchant says otherwise:
"Oh yeah, I've heard of Aubrey. Past Grand Junction, it's all bandit territory. Best to steer clear, it's a mess. No money in it, either," one grain merchant had told her, back in Denver.
We have a couple of jets. Couple of old Talons that I can keep in the air with spit, glue, and spare parts from the black market.
We have a guy in Utah which spends a lot of money on buying aircraft parts (which aren't cheap), has no reputation as a viable trade partner among merchants and has no resource extraction to speak of. Put two and two together and you get that Aubrey robbed, consistently for his spare parts. There is no conceivable income outside of robbing the countryside or robbing trade caravans.
 
Making those kinds of threats are straight up the sort of thing you may be forced to back up in the future. And I can pretty much guarantee they lack the ability to do so in any sort of reasonable timeframe. I understand why the QM did it as a narrative device, but its still diplomatic malpractice, and it implicitly sets the Mexican League up as antagonists.

The Mexicans are not any kind of check on California's ambitions.
California is in the weight class where their principal military antagonists are Russia and Japan. They are a player on the Pacific Rim. The Mexican League are not. Its that simple.
I, quite frankly, do not consider the Mexican representative's statements a threat. If you consider a statement that they have historical reason to be wary as well as the fact that they have an interest and a stake in the process a threat, well, diplomacy will be very difficult. They said they wanted a seat at the table when discussing revivalism, and that they were explicitly choosing to make their interests known via conference and discussion rather than more kinetic actions. You are looking for a threat from Mexico, when frankly, the words from the NCR representative, from the Hamilton, Toronto, and Calgary representatives can be construed in a more threatening manner than the Mexican representative. Reyes, to paraphrase, has done nothing but acknowledge history, point out that American unification seems to be underway, state that the fates of Mexico and America are tied, and that as such Mexico will inevitably be involved, before concluding that Mexico has decided the best way to make their involvement clear is through diplomatic engagement with us and other revivalist states. If that is threatening, anything other than total supplication to America-sama is a threat.

And frankly, you are doing that thing where you oversimplify a topic to try and win the argument. The mere fact that California has to contend with Japan and Russia makes the risk that Mexico can check their power all that more potent! Furthermore, have you never considered the fact that you do not need to be a peer power to act as a check on their power, particularly if you are checking them in a single theatre while they have multiple interests? You can form a coalition. You can receive foreign backing. You can, while not being large enough to threaten them, be large enough to be a consideration that cannot be trivialized. Vietnam is considered a potential check on China's power today. India outright comtends with China today despite the disparity in economy, development, and state capacity. You think Mexico has to have the capacity to decisively defeat California to act as a check on its power: that is not true. The minimum threshold to do so is to merely be formidable enough that your actions checking their influence cost them less than what it would take to destroy you yourself, or to be able to push your own influence into areas under contention so that the larger power tou are countering does not have total control. During the Sino-Soviet split from the 60s to the 70s, the USSR had the ability to crush the poorly equipped PLA, smother the disfunctional Chinese economy, carpet China with nuclear weapons with minimal losses in return, generally a disparity that you would attribute to the California Mexico relationship. Yet by the early 80s Soviet geostrategists regarded the Sino-Soviet split as one of the USSR's worst strategic mistakes, they had expended much treasure and blood fighting Chinese influence, and lost multiple engagements for influence with the Chinese precisely because of many of the reasons I outlined.
 
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I am certainly more sympathetic to the Mexican Revivalists being wary than I am NCR military aggression. :V

I also tend to fall on the side of the Native American groups who are interested in perhaps getting a better deal with us than with the NCR.
 
To bring some discord quotes about Mexico over:
PoptartProdigy:
It is both gentle reminder and subtle threat, as one might expect in discussions between statespersons with potential reason for hostility but mutual desire for cooperation first.
Basically, "We are here in a position of strength. We have opted to come to talk like civilized people. But we have survived some extremely uncivilized years. Let's talk."
Whatchamacallit:
Is it reasonable to assume that Sara Johnson has a fairly accurate view of Mexico's capabilities in 2070, at least compared to us questers?

PoptartProdigy:
Compared to y'all? Oh yes. smile

Candeljack:
Does she think the Mexicans would be interested in forming a country with us?
PoptartProdigy:
That she cannot guess to a certainty; not with her presently limited contact with them.
 
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