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I think that's a valid argument, but I dislike the idea of a abandoning a functioning democracy that's also the actual legitimate government and its Native American allies.
I dislike it too. Nonetheless, the best outcome for this situation that I can see is the two being combined, and there is no way I can see Minneapolis accepting not being the dominant in that arrangement, nor any way for us to enforce anything of the sort afterwards. Ideally, there would be no dominant whatsoever of course.

So either we try to find a way to get Minneapolis to agree to go back to being soldiers again and let the state government resume their duties in full, accept that the most Bemidji can do is improve things from the inside, or we wash our hands of the matter altogether.

Those are our options as I see them. Open warfare is not an acceptable outcome of our mediation in my view, not only for the practical concerns I outlined previously but also the destabilization it will cause in the state + casualties from civilians caught in the crossfire.
 
I dislike it too. Nonetheless, the best outcome for this situation that I can see is the two being combined, and there is no way I can see Minneapolis accepting not being the dominant in that arrangement, nor any way for us to enforce anything of the sort afterwards. Ideally, there would be no dominant whatsoever of course.

So either we try to find a way to get Minneapolis to agree to go back to being soldiers again and let the state government resume their duties in full, accept that the most Bemidji can do is improve things from the inside, or we wash our hands of the matter altogether.

Those are our options as I see them. Open warfare is not an acceptable outcome of our mediation in my view, not only for the practical concerns I outlined previously but also the destabilization it will cause in the state + casualties from civilians caught in the crossfire.

To be sure, I'd be happy to accept a union between the two if it meant Minneapolis democratizing (does anyone have the original write-up description for Minneapolis? I was under the impression it was some kind of oligarchy reliant on extortion tribute), but I don't know how likely that is.

I do think we could recognize Bemidji without triggering a war however- at least without triggering a war immediately. Minneapolis knows how tough we are, and I doubt it would pick a fight it didn't think it could win.
 
To be sure, I'd be happy to accept a union between the two if it meant Minneapolis democratizing (does anyone have the original write-up description for Minneapolis? I was under the impression it was some kind of oligarchy reliant on extortion tribute), but I don't know how likely that is.
Here you go:
Name: State of Minneapolis
Government: Elective Autocracy (Great if you're a citizen, if not, you're shit outta luck)
Territory: Directly administers the city of Miniapolis and it's immediate surroundings, projects hegemony over a much greater if vaguer stretch of land, focused on extracting food and wealth for its still significant population. At it's greatest extent, tax collectors can be seen visiting from Rochester to St. Cloud. These various smaller polities pay tribute for 'protection,' but otherwise are left to their own devices.
Capitol: Minneapolis
Leadership: Mayor Harold Harding, Commander Lucas Benoit (There's a loose balance of power between the civilian government and National Guard, the symbiosis of which has allowed the city to - relatively, of course - prosper despite everything)
History: Minneapolis, unsurprisingly, had it just as rough as all the other major US cities in the Collapse. In order to make ends meet, the city began extorting food from its neighbors with a significant subordinated National Guard contingent, and as the decades have passed, turned this 'temporary measure' into a matter of policy even as the Emergency government was dispanded. There was still Revivalist rhetoric used into both the technically pre-collapse legacy government and NG military, but this has died off in both the leadership and population as the Old Nation's death throes began to cease.

This new Status-Quo was given a good kick to the balls when the infamous General "Hellfire" Burns contacted Commander Benoit in an attempt to gather allies for his Revivalist movement in Chicago, urging the former National Guard officer to declare for the new United States. Initially hesitant - there was even an attempted coup from more radical junior officers when the situation began to leak - Mayor Harold insisting that any disruption to the local strategic play would destabilize the hegemony Minneapolis needed to survive, the intervention of Victorian diplomats, and the Commonwealth's ... confused status as to their actual legitimacy as a successor state all managed to calm everyone down, and with the declaration of war a policy of 'neutrality' was decided on, grumbling in the ranks aside.

After the stunning victories in the Battle of Detroit and Operation Foil, however, there is now a genuine crisis brewing in the State of Minneapolis. Both externally - backing the wrong horse is always a catastrophe in international politics - and an increasingly critical internal situation, as the citizens and soldiers unfurl old American flags all the while their ostensible subjects see a possible third option. Even the diarchy between the Mayorship and National Guard grows strained as Benoit once again hears the call of Patriotism while Harold Harding frantically attempts to keep four decades of careful political navigation from completely unraveling.
Attitude: Alarmed and Embarrassed.
Goals: First and foremost, the mission of Minneapolis will always be to ensure they remain on top of their local hegemony, as their economy, food supply, and security all rely upon keeping the minor cities and towns subservient. They're also facing considerable internal pressure to join in and help restore the Old Country, lest they be left behind as hypocrites and cowards. The ideal scenario for them would be to sign on as 'equal allies' to the New America - with assurances that Chicago will give them total autonomy and the final reunification's date is left appropriately vague. Enough to satisfy the internal populists banging their fists while also not compromising their strategic situation.
So yeah, assuming this holds, it's an urban core with guns and a tribute network.
 
I do think we could recognize Bemidji without triggering a war however- at least without triggering a war immediately. Minneapolis knows how tough we are, and I doubt it would pick a fight it didn't think it could win.
Alternatively, Minneapolis knows how tough we are, so they trigger the war at once to eliminate Bemidji before we can deploy support to them. After all, we don't know how much they heard of the Battle of Detroit, but it would probably be fairly common knowledge that the boon that served the most against Victoria was how much time we had to set up defenses, logistics and amass our forces at the theatre, to a greater extent than even our most hopeful projections.

They might be cowed by our recently acquired military reputation. But it is just as likely, if not more so, that faced with the prospect of losing power they'll instead go for a lightning strike out of desperation, instead of 'repeating' Victoria's mistake in giving us time to prepare.
 
Recognizing Bemedji better serves our interests, even if it creates a flashpoint between us and Minneapolis. It also reinforces our legitimacy to back the genuine continuation of the pre-war state government.
On the flip side, backing a continuation of a pre-Collapse state government over what is functionally a warlord state running on their ability to extract tribute sends something of a message to all the other autocrats and warlords around that just having temporal power isn't enough.

In this specific case, where Bemedji is 'very obviously and by any reasonable metric, the legitimate government' it's difficult not to support them both on general principles and realpolitik - but I'm not sure that it wouldn't set a precedent that could have knock-on effects on further diplomacy as we reach down the Mississippi.
 
So basically Minneapolis is the only actual part governed directly by them and they are essentially going out and demanding tribute from the rest of the state. Bemidji is still trying to actually run the state and keep stuff going. I'm leaning towards backing Bemidji, but that doesn't solve future Minneapolis problems.

The critical issue for Minneapolis seems to be food since that is still likely the only thing they are getting via tribute. Some concessions around supplying food could help with getting them onboard.

Getting the national guard on side and framing it as reunifying the state could work. Their military is stated as having revivalist tendencies.

Maybe lean on them so they can only "tax" their own citizens forcing them to expand citizenship as it's stated citizens in Minneapolis have it alright.

They are having internal political issues so a compromise might actually be possible without fighting it out.

So yeah, after those somewhat confused thoughts I'm gonna say support Bemidji and see what happens. Worst case is we accept refugees and plot our Vengeance for later if Minneapolis does something stupid.
 

Thank you, that's very helpful. :)

So yeah, assuming this holds, it's an urban core with guns and a tribute network.

And it's unstable. They had to put down a Revivalist junior officers' coup when Burns called for help, and they're currently facing an internal political crisis. I feel like recognizing Bemidji could be the straw that breaks the camel's back here.

Alternatively, Minneapolis knows how tough we are, so they trigger the war at once to eliminate Bemidji before we can deploy support to them. After all, we don't know how much they heard of the Battle of Detroit, but it would probably be fairly common knowledge that the boon that served the most against Victoria was how much time we had to set up defenses, logistics and amass our forces at the theatre, to a greater extent than even our most hopeful projections.

They might be cowed by our recently acquired military reputation. But it is just as likely, if not more so, that faced with the prospect of losing power they'll instead go for a lightning strike out of desperation, instead of 'repeating' Victoria's mistake in giving us time to prepare.

I hear what you're saying, but I suspect if they could eliminate Bemidji they'd have done it by now.

On the flip side, backing a continuation of a pre-Collapse state government over what is functionally a warlord state running on their ability to extract tribute sends something of a message to all the other autocrats and warlords around that just having temporal power isn't enough.

In this specific case, where Bemedji is 'very obviously and by any reasonable metric, the legitimate government' it's difficult not to support them both on general principles and realpolitik - but I'm not sure that it wouldn't set a precedent that could have knock-on effects on further diplomacy as we reach down the Mississippi.

TBH I'm not sure what about that precedent would be a problem.
 
Huh. That went well.
Comment later when I fully digest some of the implications. Meanwhile:
"We could have fought at Detroit with F-22s!" you snap. "Do you want me to call Daria in here so you can justify all the pilots who died for your secrets?"
Ron's nostrils flare. "It has been decades since those planes last flew, I guarantee it. I don't even know if any would be in working condition. Certainly, we could not have gotten pilots ready to fly in them by the time the war began!"
Yeah, backing Ron on this as the professional soldier.
Less than 200 F-22s were ever built, as opposed to 600+ and counting F-35s(all types) as of 2020 and 4500+ F-16s. Finding spare parts for to keep them running for forty years would require literal divine intervention, and I dont really think its credible there would be any.

The important thing here is not the planes, but the pilots and mechanics.
They'll be aging, but thats still a core of experienced trainers that can help us rebuild the Commonwealth Air Force after its frankly brutal losses during the Detroit War. Which translates to one extra thing we dont have to beg or trade foreign Powers for.

I wouldnt have risked it if Alexander was still alive, but now?
I'd say send Ron.
Minnesota is an odd one; much of the state's old territory still eagerly professes loyalty to the state government, and most will acknowledge the government at Minnesota -- which is far more powerful, possessing as it does the services of the remnant of the state National Guard. In practice, the vast majority of it is the same anarchic scrum the Country has grown accustomed to, but the acknowledgement of what they once were and could once again become is far more pointed in Minnesota than elsewhere. It's an easy observation to make, and several Minnesotan cities attending your conference to observe point it out explicitly in any event: in Minnesota in particular, the way you come down on this issue could have serious consequences regarding the area's potential reorganization.

In terms of the dispute in question, of course, Bemidji wants you to recognize them as the legitimate state government, and they have the support of Manitoulin, the State of Superior at Duluth, and the Armstrong Clique in that endeavor. The only caveat is that they are not claiming Duluth itself, recognizing it as the rightful territory of the State of Superior; for themselves, they claim legitimacy only in the remainder of Minnesota. And, frankly, by any reasonable metric they are the legitimate government. They were violently displaced, but have continued functions of government insofar as they're able to. Furthermore, they've demonstrated a capability with politics and diplomacy just by having arranged this mediation.
Bemidji has the Legitimacy, and the diplomacy to use it. Which means they can put together a government and make it STICK.
When you are trying to rebuild a nation, Legitimacy is priceless. Its means you dont have to stand over people with a gun to make them do your will.
They have a very strong pragmatic case for support.

And frankly, the fact that Minneapolis has held military power for who knows how long and has failed to translate that to general acquiesence without literally pointing a gun says bad things about their ability to reunite the territory amicably going forward.
Bemidji is, very obviously and by any reasonable metric, the legitimate government, and nobody Minneapolis is not presently threatening with a gun says anything different. What keeps the rest of the state from throwing in with them is the fact that Minneapolis has a lot of guns to point.
Well that settles that in my mind.
Bemidji. If you have to point guns at people to get them to agree to state control, its a situation that will blow up in everyone's faces sooner or later.
Usually at the worst possible time. Ron pointed guns to get people to come to the table, but he didnt have to point them to keep them there.

Im honestly curious about what the population distribution currently is; IRL Minneapolis is about 10% of the state population.
 
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Really, really tempted to vote yes here. But that possibility of a trap made me hesitate.

We can't afford to lose Burns, but that sweet, sweet loot is calling for me.
I don't think Burns is that indispensable anymore, honestly. He'll have a very strong combat unit for an escort, one with a fair amount of experience dealing with tricks, traps, and situations too good to be true.

Also, uh... Burns isn't immortal. Man's up in his late seventies or eighties as I recall. We probably won't fight Victoria for another several years and he may not live that long, let alone be in any shape to hold a prominent command role at that time. Losing him isn't ideal, but it isn't nearly as bad as it would be if we lost his organization, or lost him during a shooting war when he was playing an important week-to-week command role.

Okay. If we're voting to back Bemidji, then we need BR1 to stick around.
Do we? Do we really? We have a very substantial advantage over Minnesota-Minneapolis in size and depth of capacity. I very much doubt they can manage a stronger military force than we can, and we're in a good position to cut off any meaningful trade that they may have. I think we can dispense with our Old World Equipment and elite special unit advantage, temporarily, as long as we have the Toledo divisions to rely on and, hopefully, the products of our training program to draw on.

And for the Minnesota problem I say we wash our hands of it and say neither that's a thorny mess and we really can't afford to stick our hand into given how much is going on for us as is. And if we pick one or the other it could very well lead to a conflict that we can't afford to get dragged into so yeah I really don't feel like picking a side there.

And if we pick neither for the Minnesota problem we won't have to worry about sending our exhausted military up there and will allow us to safely gain the shiny fighter jets.
Realistically, the troubles in Minnesota aren't going to go away. Now that Minnesota-Bemidji has reached out to try and get outside assistance, Minnesota-Minneapolis won't just let that stand. They will have reason to try and crush Bemidji before it happens again. We're likely to end up with a civil war on our northwest border one way or another at this rate.

I really don't think we should send people two thousand miles away to Utah, of all places.
For F-22s, or even for a cadre of air-to-air pilot trainers and pre-Collapse USAF munitions?

Fuck, it's worth it.

The Minnesota question though I feel we should just go with neither and let them handle this themselves we're in no position to enforce any agreement if one party refuses and we just finished a war and are desperately rebuilding everything i for one do not want to overextend and us fighting another war with our army exhausted and supply lines emptied is something I don't want to do.
Honestly, we could probably just re-mobilize the troops and drop 3-4 divisions into the area. Combined with support from whichever local factions are willing to align with us to take Minneapolis down a peg, I suspect it'd be enough. Unless Minneapolis turns out to be another Toledo, in which case we'll have a real fight on our hands. I'd be surprised by that degree of muscle, though, because that was something the Vicks willingly boosted Toledo to make the place capable of, as a counterweight to Detroit.

The only way Minneapolis is THAT strong is, basically, if they were a former Vick client state... in which case maybe letting them become the local hegemon in Minnesota isn't a great idea. :p
 
The old state government has apparently managed to maintain significant legitimacy and continuance of old government structures despite everything while Minneapolis is an unstable duumvirate with one of the two strongmen having second thoughts. One of these two sounds a lot more like to collapse in the long term. Plus they're reliant on the threat of force to maintain any sort of control.

We have firepower to spare, but local support isn't something we can just import.

Even in the worst case scenario our soldiers get to accrue more fighting experience.
 
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Honestly, we could probably just re-mobilize the troops and drop 3-4 divisions into the area. Combined with support from whichever local factions are willing to align with us to take Minneapolis down a peg, I suspect it'd be enough. Unless Minneapolis turns out to be another Toledo, in which case we'll have a real fight on our hands. I'd be surprised by that degree of muscle, though, because that was something the Vicks willingly boosted Toledo to make the place capable of, as a counterweight to Detroit.

The only way Minneapolis is THAT strong is, basically, if they were a former Vick client state... in which case maybe letting them become the local hegemon in Minnesota isn't a great idea. :p
That would run counter to the narrative that we're actively trying to pursue though, that is "The Commonwealth are not concerned on telling where you stand, and more concerned in working together."

Hell, if we go in too aggressively on this, we would have basically confirmed a lot of the other state's paranoia about the Commonwealth. That is not a good place to be right now.
 
Alternatively, Minneapolis knows how tough we are, so they trigger the war at once to eliminate Bemidji before we can deploy support to them. After all, we don't know how much they heard of the Battle of Detroit, but it would probably be fairly common knowledge that the boon that served the most against Victoria was how much time we had to set up defenses, logistics and amass our forces at the theatre, to a greater extent than even our most hopeful projections.

They might be cowed by our recently acquired military reputation. But it is just as likely, if not more so, that faced with the prospect of losing power they'll instead go for a lightning strike out of desperation, instead of 'repeating' Victoria's mistake in giving us time to prepare.
*checks*
Bemidji is almost 400km from Minneapolis by road.
Thats roughly the distance from Buffalo to Detroit. Unless the roads and terrain are vastly more favorable than they seem to be from looking at a map, they cant project force that far comfortably.

Furthermore, say they capture Bemidji. And the state government refuses to quit. Then what?
Fighting an insurgency with the troop strength available to a citystate is both expensive and manpower intensive. Their army tied down means they cant use it to intimidate others. Atrocities will draw backlash and possible military action by people emboldened by the Commonwealth.

And Minneapolis is about 800km from St Louis right on the upper Mississipi.
St Louis is right on the southern border of the Commonwealth, and the Commonwealth can send a division up the river to land on their shores.
While their army is 400km away in Bemidji.
On the flip side, backing a continuation of a pre-Collapse state government over what is functionally a warlord state running on their ability to extract tribute sends something of a message to all the other autocrats and warlords around that just having temporal power isn't enough.

In this specific case, where Bemedji is 'very obviously and by any reasonable metric, the legitimate government' it's difficult not to support them both on general principles and realpolitik - but I'm not sure that it wouldn't set a precedent that could have knock-on effects on further diplomacy as we reach down the Mississippi.
Depends on what lesson they take. They could take Pre-Collapse state govt >> Warlord state.
Or they could take Faction with popular support >> Faction with more guns.

I mean, Audrey Jameson was head of the state govt of Illnois, but neither she nor her immediate successors ended up head of the Commonwealth, and the Commonwealth is not headquarted in Peoria.

Warlord states, and other bystanders, figuring we're kinda serious about the whole consent of the governed thing is not a bad thing either.
Especially since we're already working the whole Revivalist angle.
Has a certain synchronicity with the Declaration.
I hear what you're saying, but I suspect if they could eliminate Bemidji they'd have done it by now.
This.

Their ability to project force in the current Midwest is limited, and their abiity to occupy territory that far from their home base is also questionable.
Sure they can beat Bemidji, but can they occupy it? Hold the territory?
And any atrocities will bring us down on their head like an avalanche, let alone the rest of the State who they have been apparently bullying.

Not to mention that they have to reckon with economic repercussions if the general sentiment of the rest of Minnesota is backed by the closest regional power. I mean, the Commonwealth does sit on both Lakes access and Mississipi access below St Louis.

I'd much rather broker some sort of diplomatic solution of some sort.
But frankly I dont see Minneapolis military options looking all that hot in the short to medium-term.
So I'm not especially fussed about it once we get involved.
 
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It'd be great if we could get some feelers in contact with the NatGuard officers amicable to Burns and the Revivalist sentiments, but sadly our intelligence apparatus isn't capable of that just yet.
 
Realistically, the troubles in Minnesota aren't going to go away. Now that Minnesota-Bemidji has reached out to try and get outside assistance, Minnesota-Minneapolis won't just let that stand. They will have reason to try and crush Bemidji before it happens again. We're likely to end up with a civil war on our northwest border one way or another at this rate.
They're sitting on the Mississipi's shores, and the Commonwealth just regenerated its shallowdraft navy.

You have to wonder what the domestic support is for an offensive war is in Minneapolis though. Especially as they are located to be a trading city, something that would take a significant crimp should they get embroiled in a significant war. Even if its just where its the Manitoulin funnelling arms and ammunition to Bemidji through Duluth, let alone one where the Commonwealth takes official attention and pulls a Shawnee on them.

I mean, its one thing to corner the other kids on the playground for their lunch money when you're the biggest, strongest kid in class .
Quite another when you can see a bigger, older person watching from a chair saying "Play nice".
The "or else" doesnt have to be spelled out.

I suspect that with them unable to use the threat of military force, the state of things in Minnesota will realign fast.
That would run counter to the narrative that we're actively trying to pursue though, that is "The Commonwealth are not concerned on telling where you stand, and more concerned in working together." Hell, if we go in too aggressively on this, we would have basically confirmed a lot of the other state's paranoia about the Commonwealth. That is not a good place to be right now.
Does it?

There's a difference between "Not telling you where you stand" and "Standing by while you tell other people where they stand."
I mean, thats in part why we went to war with Victoria this time, isnt it? Why we have the whole Defender of the Midwest doctrine?
We didnt promise to stand by and let other people attempt to conquer their neighbors with military force just because the invaders arent Vics.
 
Could we afford that flashpoint though? If we piss off Minneapolis, that might be one more asset the Inquisition could use to distract the Commonwealth. And frankly, our armies are nowhere near ready for another war. We're kinda in the middle of refitting them.
Actually we've been retraining, not refitting, and we'll easily have six months to a year to re-supply before having to fight again.

Meanwhile, the Victorian Inquisition is still fighting a civil war and has lost a LOT of influence in the Midwest, what with us now having access to chokepoints that keep them from moving much in the way of goods. The Vicks will almost certainly be burning through stockpiles of weapons and resources, with very, very little to spare for a place in Minnesota that we can easily place under multiple redundant layers of blockade.

That and we just left a war our army hasn't had enough time to recover let alone all of the problems at home we need to fix as well. Combine that with the fact we have a major summit upcoming again and the Victoria/Russia problem still yeah no, here and now they can solve this themselves we will have no part in it this time.
Now that Bemidji has called in an outside partner, "they can solve this themselves" is probably a euphemism for "A Minneapolis army sacks Bemidji and kicks their state government in exile to pieces."

This isn't a stable situation that will sit still indefinitely; if we were going to propose a non-solution and avoid getting involved, we should have either abstained at the original local conference or postponed the mediation until we WERE ready to get involved.

But no, we had to go in this turn to get a reputation for acting quickly and decisively... Which means we now are compelled to act somehow.

On the other hand, I'm loathe to go into another war, especially since we've just committed to a sizable refurbishing of our military and a goodly chunk of Congress is just a tad irritated with us at the moment. And if we gave recognition to Bemedji without tangible support when Minneapolis isn't going to take it lying down and conflict goes hot, something projected to be a likely outcome, they'll just get slaughtered.

Distasteful as it might be, it would probably be for the best if we either arranged for the state government to be folded/merged into Minneapolis' civilian apparatus, or just wash our hands of the matter.
Again, I predict that if we wash our hands of the matter, Bemidji will get squashed soon.

This will look bad for us, worse than if we'd delayed the conference. A smaller micronation called on us to help them deal with a more powerful one, and we responded, and then we decided we couldn't do anything, washed our hands of the affair, and left matters to their logical (probably messy) endpoint.

As a counterpoint, Minneapolis is also a democracy, and at no point in the description were any native Americans brought up. I think if they were relevant to the situation they'd be referenced in the update.
Look up Bemidji in real life; it's the centerpoint between multiple Indian reservations. Taken together they have a population greater than or equal to that of the town. Combine this basic demographic fact with the close relationship the leader of Minnesota-Bemidji had with the virtually all-native polity on Manitoulin Island and...

Well, there's a reason I keep speculating that Bemidji may be "three Chippewa reservations wearing a trenchcoat."

Alternatively, Minneapolis knows how tough we are, so they trigger the war at once to eliminate Bemidji before we can deploy support to them. After all, we don't know how much they heard of the Battle of Detroit, but it would probably be fairly common knowledge that the boon that served the most against Victoria was how much time we had to set up defenses, logistics and amass our forces at the theatre, to a greater extent than even our most hopeful projections.

They might be cowed by our recently acquired military reputation. But it is just as likely, if not more so, that faced with the prospect of losing power they'll instead go for a lightning strike out of desperation, instead of 'repeating' Victoria's mistake in giving us time to prepare.
That doesn't sound like a great plan for them. High risk to them of effectively re-enacting the First Gulf War with Bemidji cast as Kuwait, them cast as Saddam Hussein, and us cast as the United States leading a coalition of local allies.

They'd have to be extremely brutal to crush Bemidji beyond hope of a Commonwealth army 'riding to the rescue,' after all, but that same brutality would retroactively justify the Commonwealth in overthrowing them. Conversely, any solution where they go to war with a Bemidji government the Commonwealth has recognized but don't deliberately antagonize the Commonwealth is likely to not end in them decisively putting a stop to Bemidji's claims.

I'm not sure what they'll do, but I doubt they'll try to do it that way.
 
Honestly, we could probably just re-mobilize the troops and drop 3-4 divisions into the area. Combined with support from whichever local factions are willing to align with us to take Minneapolis down a peg, I suspect it'd be enough. Unless Minneapolis turns out to be another Toledo, in which case we'll have a real fight on our hands. I'd be surprised by that degree of muscle, though, because that was something the Vicks willingly boosted Toledo to make the place capable of, as a counterweight to Detroit.

A potential concern I have about that course of action, aside from whatever consequences there may be for civilians caught in a civil war, is how us conducting such an intervention will be perceived by our neighbors. Recall that we only just got done dealing with Hostile Neighborhood, and while it will shortly be removed from play, it hasn't quite yet been.

With regard to the Minnesota situation, I've previously expressed my concerns about a possible civil war springing up should we come in and side with Bemidji. However, I also have concerns with how any Commonwealth military intervention into this situation will be perceived by our neighbors, given that the facts of the matter will be that we are already insisting on mediating the situation on the request of Bemidji and its allies, against the wishes of Minneapolis. If we proceed to strip Minneapolis of their current hegemony over the Minnesota, enforcing our decision with Commonwealth guns once they "violently object", I'm not sure that we come out of this situation looking great. In the worst case, Hostile Neighborhood might well not disappear, given that we will have proven that we are willing and able to use our military against our neighbors.

I would frankly prefer a diplomatic solution to this mess, and given the options...

[ ] Bemidji. They're legitimate, they've demonstrated the ability to play the game, and frankly, they'd owe you way more. Of course, Minneapolis is supremely unlikely to take this lying down...
[ ] Minneapolis. They're strong, and can get the state in line far more swiftly, and likely without an outright civil war. This would also give you an in with them; they've given you the cold shoulder thus far.
[ ] Neither. Damn the sunk costs, you know better than to stick your hand into this mess. Make some noises, propose a compromise neither will agree to, and then back out.

...the only one that likely resolves the upheaval without a civil war is ruling in favor of Minneapolis, which also gives us an in with them that we may be use to encourage the adoption of reforms, or to deepen the wedge between mayor and commander. After all, with better relations, and the new sources of food and wealth that can be gained through trade, the old equation in which tribute is necessary for survival is likely to change.
 
honstly, I kinda feel Minneapolis is something we're going to have to deal with eventually. We're not going to let them keep shaking down the locals, and their not in our camp.
 
A potential concern I have about that course of action, aside from whatever consequences there may be for civilians caught in a civil war, is how us conducting such an intervention will be perceived by our neighbors. Recall that we only just got done dealing with Hostile Neighborhood, and while it will shortly be removed from play, it hasn't quite yet been.
With regard to the Minnesota situation, I've previously expressed my concerns about a possible civil war springing up should we come in and side with Bemidji. However, I also have concerns with how any Commonwealth military intervention into this situation will be perceived by our neighbors, given that the facts of the matter will be that we are already insisting on mediating the situation on the request of Bemidji and its allies, against the wishes of Minneapolis. If we proceed to strip Minneapolis of their current hegemony over the Minnesota, enforcing our decision with Commonwealth guns once they "violently object", I'm not sure that we come out of this situation looking great. In the worst case, Hostile Neighborhood might well not disappear, given that we will have proven that we are willing and able to use our military against our neighbors.

I would frankly prefer a diplomatic solution to this mess, and given the options...
I dont think that applies.
Toledo and Detroit joining us didnt cause any backlash. Intervening between Traverse and Grand Rapids didnt. Giving Sandusky Commune and Shawnee Republic mutual defense treaties didnt. Hooking up with St Louis didnt.

We are preventing other people applying coercion to smaller states. Its in keeping with our foreign policy to date.
And we were invited.

We arent preventing Minneapolis convincing its neighbors via diplomacy.
We're just recognizing Bemidji diplomatically, based on checking the opinions of everyone else in the state too far away to have a Minneapolis gun in their face. And making it clear that we are watching, to disincentivize more arm-twisting at the threat of Consequences.

I mean, Bemidji is the faction thats being supported by what seems to be the majority of people and communities.
Thats literally the opposite of triggering Hostile Neighborhood, because it makes it clear that we go with majority opinion, and not try to impose whatever most favors us.
...the only one that likely resolves the upheaval without a civil war is ruling in favor of Minneapolis, which also gives us an in with them that we may be use to encourage the adoption of reforms, or to deepen the wedge between mayor and commander. After all, with better relations, and the new sources of food and wealth that can be gained through trade, the old equation in which tribute is necessary for survival is likely to change.
*points at description of Minneapolis*
Name: State of Minneapolis
Government: Elective Autocracy (Great if you're a citizen, if not, you're shit outta luck)
Territory: Directly administers the city of Miniapolis and it's immediate surroundings, projects hegemony over a much greater if vaguer stretch of land, focused on extracting food and wealth for its still significant population. At it's greatest extent, tax collectors can be seen visiting from Rochester to St. Cloud. These various smaller polities pay tribute for 'protection,' but otherwise are left to their own devices.
Capitol: Minneapolis
Leadership: Mayor Harold Harding, Commander Lucas Benoit (There's a loose balance of power between the civilian government and National Guard, the symbiosis of which has allowed the city to - relatively, of course - prosper despite everything)
History: Minneapolis, unsurprisingly, had it just as rough as all the other major US cities in the Collapse. In order to make ends meet, the city began extorting food from its neighbors with a significant subordinated National Guard contingent, and as the decades have passed, turned this 'temporary measure' into a matter of policy even as the Emergency government was dispanded. There was still Revivalist rhetoric used into both the technically pre-collapse legacy government and NG military, but this has died off in both the leadership and population as the Old Nation's death throes began to cease.

This new Status-Quo was given a good kick to the balls when the infamous General "Hellfire" Burns contacted Commander Benoit in an attempt to gather allies for his Revivalist movement in Chicago, urging the former National Guard officer to declare for the new United States. Initially hesitant - there was even an attempted coup from more radical junior officers when the situation began to leak - Mayor Harold insisting that any disruption to the local strategic play would destabilize the hegemony Minneapolis needed to survive, the intervention of Victorian diplomats, and the Commonwealth's ... confused status as to their actual legitimacy as a successor state all managed to calm everyone down, and with the declaration of war a policy of 'neutrality' was decided on, grumbling in the ranks aside.

After the stunning victories in the Battle of Detroit and Operation Foil, however, there is now a genuine crisis brewing in the State of Minneapolis. Both externally - backing the wrong horse is always a catastrophe in international politics - and an increasingly critical internal situation, as the citizens and soldiers unfurl old American flags all the while their ostensible subjects see a possible third option. Even the diarchy between the Mayorship and National Guard grows strained as Benoit once again hears the call of Patriotism while Harold Harding frantically attempts to keep four decades of careful political navigation from completely unraveling.
Attitude: Alarmed and Embarrassed.
Goals: First and foremost, the mission of Minneapolis will always be to ensure they remain on top of their local hegemony, as their economy, food supply, and security all rely upon keeping the minor cities and towns subservient. They're also facing considerable internal pressure to join in and help restore the Old Country, lest they be left behind as hypocrites and cowards. The ideal scenario for them would be to sign on as 'equal allies' to the New America - with assurances that Chicago will give them total autonomy and the final reunification's date is left appropriately vague. Enough to satisfy the internal populists banging their fists while also not compromising their strategic situation.
An unstable duopoly of warlords with no popular mandate, and who are actively against Revivalism.
Its not popular with the locals, its not even in our interests as Revivalists.

At best you postpone an immediate war in exchange for a bigger one later on, once the Vics are recovered enough to poke.
And you significantly tarnish our reputation with Revivalist states and communities who hope for self-determination by supporting someone trying to compel regional control by force or threat of arms.

I mean, we rejected increasing our size and controlled territory by force of arms.
We even resisted the temptation to get some of our own back at the people who blockaded us during the war. Why would we support someone else who extracts tribute by force of arms and wants to force the rest of Minnesota into submission despite their clear preference for somewhere else?

Frankly, if they're going to fight, better now than later, when Victoria can stir the pot.
 
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A potential concern I have about that course of action, aside from whatever consequences there may be for civilians caught in a civil war, is how us conducting such an intervention will be perceived by our neighbors. Recall that we only just got done dealing with Hostile Neighborhood, and while it will shortly be removed from play, it hasn't quite yet been.

With regard to the Minnesota situation, I've previously expressed my concerns about a possible civil war springing up should we come in and side with Bemidji. However, I also have concerns with how any Commonwealth military intervention into this situation will be perceived by our neighbors, given that the facts of the matter will be that we are already insisting on mediating the situation on the request of Bemidji and its allies, against the wishes of Minneapolis. If we proceed to strip Minneapolis of their current hegemony over the Minnesota, enforcing our decision with Commonwealth guns once they "violently object", I'm not sure that we come out of this situation looking great. In the worst case, Hostile Neighborhood might well not disappear, given that we will have proven that we are willing and able to use our military against our neighbors.

I would frankly prefer a diplomatic solution to this mess, and given the options...



...the only one that likely resolves the upheaval without a civil war is ruling in favor of Minneapolis, which also gives us an in with them that we may be use to encourage the adoption of reforms, or to deepen the wedge between mayor and commander. After all, with better relations, and the new sources of food and wealth that can be gained through trade, the old equation in which tribute is necessary for survival is likely to change.
Thing is, I don't think our optics benefit from backing the warlord state over the clearly legitimate government successors, you know? I'm definitely hoping we can resolve things without it going bloody, but I think "we backed the legitimate government and supported them when they were attacked" plays better than "we backed the guys with all the guns, who intimidated the legitimate government into not complaining too loud."
An unstable duopoly of warlords with no popular mandate, and who are actively against Revivalism.
I mean, you yourself underlined a bit that notes that half of that duopoly is getting some Revivalist feelings again. But that's a minor point.
 
That was a pretty good turn overall and if we could grab those F-22 they will be a major shock for anyone who we go up against for however long they last especially if they come with pilots. The big thing is how many of them are actually in working order F-22 aren't exactly easy to maintain not as bad as B-2s though.
 
I don't want to sound to paranoid but...

F-22s sound like a trap.

There's new leadership in Russia that hates us, that have stated an interest in Victoria. Then suddenly Ron and the BRO are being lured out into the middle of nowhere. Our best military leader. The guy that is important to retraining our military to at least old world standards. The guy who the Russians have been trying to kill for half a century. The contact just so happening to have what we need, in pilots and planes.

Yep. Definitely a trap.

They probably caught him and extracted the codes and waited for an opportunity to use them. Like now.

If we send anyone, make sure they're unimportant. Or at least not well liked. Cause they are totally gonna get droned. In the desert, where there is no cover, or place to run too.
 
Ron Burns stands on the roof of the tallest building in the Renaissance Center, the tallest structure in Detroit. Before the Collapse, this was a hotel. After, it was pressed into service as public housing.

The Commonwealth slapped a radio mast on it.

Burns stares out into the inky blackness of the night. Somewhere ahead of him lies the Lake, and the last Victorian Army division anywhere in the world. The rest are scattered, dead, dying, or captured. In two months, he has done what people have labored for years to achieve.

Well...he has done. Decades later, he is not enough of a fool to think that the effort was his alone.

Burns stares. He stares for so long that the shapes in the distance start swimming in front of his eyes and he needs to blink tears away. He stares and thinks. The Victorian Army is gone. The Army is gone.

Burns swallows. Then he lifts the radio in his hand up to his face.

"This is Hellfire. Two-five-niner-seven-Alfa-Tango-eight-Sierra-one..."

He rattles off numbers and letters for over a minute. The radio picks up his words, carries it up to the mast behind him, and carries his words to the world beyond. To most, it is a strange message from a terrifying man, doubtless signaling a change in his many plans. To Victoria, it is threatening -- a broadcast of unknown purpose from one of their greatest enemies.

To Burns...it comes to nothing.
Reading this now strikes me as far more... melancholic. Burns waited on that roof for hours, hoping to hear someone, anyone transmit the right response codes. He must have thought "I'm the last one left" as he climbed down from there.
 
I dont think that applies.
Toledo and Detroit joining us didnt cause any backlash. Intervening between Traverse and Grand Rapids didnt. Giving Sandusky Commune and Shawnee Republic mutual defense treaties didnt. Hooking up with St Louis didnt.

What you're not considering is that there is a considerable difference between those situations and the one that is on the table now.

In the case of Toledo and Detroit, those two powers joined us in the aftermath of the war against Victoria, and we both very eager to join (so much so that they were engaging in a game of oneupsmanship to see who would join first!). In that war, we fought to defend Detroit after Victoria declared war on it, honoring the mutual defense pact we'd signed with them when pretty much no one else would have. In that war, we also accepted Toldeo's aid against Victoria, allowing them to seek redemption for their allowing Victoria to use them as a base by throwing themselves into the thickest and hardest parts of the final battle - which they did.

In the case of Traverse and Grand Rapids, the polities were amendable to compromise and accepted our mediation once we found out what the situation was on the ground.

In the case of Sandusky Commune, we guaranteed their independence against likely encroachment by Victoria, who as you well know, is everyone's bogeyman.

With the Shawnee Republic, no one is going to look at us askance for offering a mutual defense treaty to a polity that may come under threat from a power already hostile to us.

In this case, there are two claimants to Minnesota, neither of which are inclined to accept a compromise. Further, while one of the parties involved has asked us to mediate, the other has been very firm in stating that mediation is both unwanted and unnecessary at this point in time, with the option to side with Bemidji explicitly pointing out that Minneapolis is unlikely to take this lying down. If we make that decision anyway, and then end up deploying our troops to enforce it in the face of refusal, then are we not the ones applying coercion to a smaller state, effectively expanding our sphere of influence through military force?

In the worst and not entirely unlikely case, we may find ourselves having to occupy the area, effectively "increasing our size and controlled territory by force of arms," despite any protests to the contrary.

We're just recognizing Bemidji diplomatically, based on checking the opinions of everyone else in the state too far away to have a Minneapolis gun in their face. And making it clear that we are watching, to disincentivize more arm-twisting at the threat of Consequences.

I mean, Bemidji is the faction thats being supported by what seems to be the majority of people and communities.
Thats literally the opposite of triggering Hostile Neighborhood, because it makes it clear that we go with majority opinion, and not try to impose whatever most favors us.
*points at description of Minneapolis*

Though much of the state's old territory does indeed profess loyalty to the state government, it also acknowledges the government at Minneapolis, so the situation is not actually as clear cut, or clean cut, as we might prefer. Bemidji may well be the legitimate government, having continued functions of government insofar as they are able to, despite being displaced, but Minneapolis, not Bemidji, is the de facto hegemon over Minnesota. Note also that Minneapolis is not as free of Revivalism as you claim - in the very description you cite, its citizens are unfurling American flags and its Commander hearing the call of patriotism once again. Should we move to displace Minneapolis, destabilizing the hegemony it needs to survive (or at least that its citizens believe it needs to survive), we may very well end up killing that revivalism, since New America will have shown itself to be an existential threat to their existence - especially if we deploy troops to enforce this new state of affairs.

I understand that you believe what we are doing is "just" recognizing Bemidji diplomatically, and that as such, this is the opposite of triggering Hostile Neighborhood, but it is not your belief that matters, but that of the other powers in the region, as we cannot assume that they will greet us as liberators. It is easy enough to look at old America and its involvement in Iraq to see just what a quagmire that assumption can get a nation into - even when that nation is a global hegemon, which we assuredly are not.
 
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