Transposition, or: Ship Happens [Worm/Aoki Hagane no Arpeggio | Arpeggio of Blue Steel]

By the way, is it just me, or did Bakuda inadvertently teach Taylor how to create her own Singularity Explosives?
The question is will ensou have Taylor yell out the attack name when she launch those blackhole bombs even though yelling out the name does nothing extra?

"Special Beam Cannon!"

"Shit! Did she just launch a singularity up the Endbringer's ass?"

"It appears to be the part of the Endbringer that's its weakness. How did she know?"
 
The question is will ensou have Taylor yell out the attack name when she launch those blackhole bombs even though yelling out the name does nothing extra?

"Special Beam Cannon!"

"Shit! Did she just launch a singularity up the Endbringer's ass?"

"It appears to be the part of the Endbringer that's its weakness. How did she know?"

I really hope not. That stuff bugs me, especially in worlds like Arpeggio and Worm.
 
Considering that the commentators "got it" when a guy named Hu managed to get to first base in a Major League Baseball game, I'm pretty sure they'd get this.
 
I was re-re-re-reading Taylor Varga, when I stumbled on this particular part, that feels somewhat relevant to the discussion, even if it's not applicable. Or is it?

The two young men did as requested, then came back. "Looks more or less intact," Leet commented, studying his invention. He was holding his tricorder, which he used to scan the thing. "Actually it's almost completely intact. As far as I can see, the main problem is that the gamma emission seriously damaged some of the structural parts around the singularity guide frame, which has warped. It relies on a very tight tolerance, even a few microns out of alignment would make it stop working." He looked slightly dubious. "I think."
"Singularity?" Armsmaster echoed, looking appalled.
"Of course. That's how you make a wormhole, you need a hollow singularity rotating at a very high speed. This thing makes one as a toroid and spins it up. It's a generated gravity field, not a real black hole, the mass is mostly virtual."
"Virtual mass." The Protectorate Tinker looked like he was in physical pain at the concept.
"Virtual negative mass, actually," Leet mumbled, on his hands and knees staring into the innards of the complex device. Dragon met her friend's eyes, both of them shaking their heads.
"How are you not running the world if you can do this sort of thing, Leet?" she asked wryly. He looked up at her, frowning a little.
"Mostly because they tend to fail pretty fast, and for some reason I can never make them work right again. Usually because they blow up if I try."
"Perhaps you shouldn't try in this case," Legend, who was watching with interest from near the door, suggested. "I can't help but think the words 'singularity' and 'blow up' shouldn't really be used together."
 
This. So very FUCKING much this. I am so very tired of hearing about all the stupid shit people believe about black holes. Just because it's a single point that has X mass doesn't mean that it sucks things in like a fucking vacuum cleaner, it just pulls with the gravitational attraction of mass X, where X is whatever mass got crammed into a single point. The fact that the tidal effects near the event horizon of a black hole can be fucking terrifying just means that you have to stay well clear of them, and the "well clear" zone for something like a mountain's-worth of mass crushed into a black hole is, maybe about 100 meters away? the tidal effects get -strong- at the event horizon, true, but those event horizons are _FUCKING TINY_ when you're not talking about something with the mass of, oh, say -A STAR-.

Even then, a black hole with the mass of the Sun would pull exactly as hard as the Sun itself does, so if you crushed the Sun into a black hole, the planets wouldn't get their orbits thrown out of whack, they'd just freeze solid as they finally stopped getting warmed by the hot ball of fusion fuckery at the center of the solar system.

Sorry for the rant, I had a discussion on -exactly this- IRL yesterday with some moron who couldn't understand that black holes weren't goingt o gobble down the entire solar system.

I think if you do really precise calculations, the increased density of our star turning into a black hole would have a very slight effect on the planets et al. Like, cause them to shift a few meters closer to or further from the sun per year. So an effect, techniqually, but so small as to be effectively negligible.

I'm not sure what you say I'm getting wrong here, but I didn't pull that number out of my ass.

To produce an acceleration of 10m/s2​ (about 1g) at a range of 10m, you need a mass of 1.5 x 1013​ kg (15 billion tons). I thought that 1g might be a somewhat low estimate of the necessary force to pull someone off their feet and raised an order of magnitude.

Of course, the effects are pretty range sensitive at this scale, thanks to the inverse square law.

Perhaps you thought that you needed planetary scale masses to have that effect?

No, but Bakuda definitely didn't create a black hole with that kind of mass. The amount of mass she could feasibly put into that bomb, it would only hold that kind of legitimate gravity within a few nanometers. So to generate the gravitation we saw in-chapter, she had to be fucking with gravitons.

I forget what the calculated mass is supposed to be
Last time I heard a number quoted, it was approximately the mass of our moon. ....currently realizing that that technically isn't a number.
 
I think if you do really precise calculations, the increased density of our star turning into a black hole would have a very slight effect on the planets et al. Like, cause them to shift a few meters closer to or further from the sun per year. So an effect, techniqually, but so small as to be effectively negligible.
Nope, not really. Assuming the center of mass didn't move, the gravitic forces would be identical. As long as you are further from the center of the gravity-generating mass in question's center of mass than the surface of said mass, it doesn't matter to you what shape, size, or density the mass takes on. You will experience identical forces due to it.

Well, no, not QUITE entirely true. The shape can matter. But not the size or density (other than how size might affect shape). But for a spherical object, its size and density would be irrelevant. Only its mass. Again, assuming you're not inside the mass (i.e. closer to its center than its surface is).
 
Its been too long since I last checked a physics book, but wikipedia does have an entry for Hawking Radiation that might be of interest for gravitic-like devices that crushes matter into blackhole material then releases the artificial gravity field so that it acts like a black hole of its true mass:
Hawking radiation - Wikipedia
Of particular relevance is this part: "So, for instance, a 1-second-life black hole has a mass of 2.28×10^5 kg, equivalent to an energy of 2.05×10^22 J that could be released by 5×10^6 megatons of TNT. The initial power is 6.84×10^21 W."
Basically for a lot of such devices, they could be considered matter-to-energy converters for any mass input of less than that.

I remember there was some consideration in the 1970s on the various forms of what happens when during formation of black hole if certain conditions of spinning and mass shape occurred though they might have been discounted since then. I think one was a spinning rough American-football shape during the collapse that resulted in the event horizon not covering the ends of the "poles" which had mathematical imaginary values though it was unknown what that would really mean. Another form resulted in the event horizon pulling the matter into some kind of torus shape with the flow of the drag on reality being some kind of closed helix which implied that it would have an odd movement through space and gravitational lensing effect, though given that earlier post on that video on black hole civilization did not mention them and only a spinning ring effect presumably there is something that prevents that sort of result.

Its possible that with such artificial gravity technology a lot of science fiction technology could be emulated and even spin-off technology could effectively do transmutation through a form of artificial nucleosynthesis.
 
But for a spherical object, its size and density would be irrelevant.
Not quite. If you are close to (but still outside) the sphere you are going to get some side vectors, granted given a sphere of even density those side vectors would cancel themselvs out, but that still results in a gravitational pull of slightly less than you'd get from a point source of the same total mass.
 
Not quite. If you are close to (but still outside) the sphere you are going to get some side vectors, granted given a sphere of even density those side vectors would cancel themselvs out, but that still results in a gravitational pull of slightly less than you'd get from a point source of the same total mass.

How would it result in a total pull less than the same mass as a point source - Gauss's law should have it being equal for any symmetrical distribution ?
 
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How would it result in a total pull less than the same mass as a point source - Gauss's law should have it being equal for any symmetrical distribution ?
Consider the non-point-source gravitational attractor as a sphere of point sources evenly distributed. The sources further away are mitigated more by the inverse square law. The sources that are not directly down are mitigated by the cosine of their angle away from directly down, with the sine portion of the vector being cancelled or balanced by the source at the the same distance and angle on the other side of the sphere (think of it like the L1 Lagrange point)... and that's how gravity works when we consider a planet-sized planetary mass and not a planetary- or stellar-mass black hole. A black hole certainly reduces the inverse square law and cosine vector differences, but it doesn't truly eliminate them.
 
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How would it result in a total pull less than the same mass as a point source - Gauss's law should have it being equal for any symmetrical distribution ?
While a lot of phenomena in electro-magnetism are similar to gravitational phenomena you shouldn't mix them up. Gauss' law is for electrical flux and has nothing to do with gravity.

Any gravitational source (other than a point source) can be seen as an infinite number of point sources bound by the object's shape. Assigning the line between your target and the center of the mass in question as the X axis every one of those point sources will have a gravitational pull which can be broken into vectors along the X,Y,Z axis of your coordinate system with the total sum of them equal to the gravitational pull of the mass, however every vector along the X and Y axis will have a corresponding opposite vector canceling it so only the sum of the vectors along the X axis will affect the target.

The larger the angular size of the mass(i.e the larger it looks to you) the more of the total gravitational energy goes into those canceled vectors, generally if your distance is more than 10 times the object's radius you can ignore this factor but technically it's never actually zero as long as the object has a size.



EDIT: A bunch of nonsense proving it's been too long since college
 
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In this thread, you learn that Physics and Mathematics are in fact the closest thing RL has to the study of fucking magic.

(checks worm/arpeggio thread-sees hard science still being thrown around)

These are two series that are not exactly known for hewing too close to modern physics.

While a lot of phenomena in electro-magnetism are similar to gravitational phenomena you shouldn't mix them up. Gauss' law is for electrical flux and has nothing to do with gravity.

Any gravitational source (other than a point source) can be seen as an infinite number of point sources bound by the object's shape. Assigning the line between your target and the center of the mass in question as the X axis every one of those point sources will have a gravitational pull which can be broken into vectors along the X,Y,Z axis of your coordinate system with the total sum of them equal to the gravitational pull of the mass, however every vector along the X and Y axis will have a corresponding opposite vector canceling it so only the sum of the vectors along the X axis will affect the target.

The larger the angular size of the mass(i.e the larger it looks to you) the more of the total gravitational energy goes into those canceled vectors, generally if your distance is more than 10 times the object's radius you can ignore this factor but technically it's never actually zero as long as the object has a size.

Did somebody say "Gauss"?

that video on black hole civilization

Link please? I couldn't find it in thread search.
 
These are two series that are not exactly known for hewing too close to modern physics.
Right up until you get peeps talking about RL physics and maths that lead to such things like Anti-Gravity.

I mean, finding out that Time Travel was theoretically possible by the current laws of physics as we know them was a mind trip and a half, likewise generating Wormholes has been a thing for a while now, the only issue is keeping them open.
 
Right up until you get peeps talking about RL physics and maths that lead to such things like Anti-Gravity.

I mean, finding out that Time Travel was theoretically possible by the current laws of physics as we know them was a mind trip and a half, likewise generating Wormholes has been a thing for a while now, the only issue is keeping them open.
It's nice to know that the beginning of Farscape is actually possible by modern physics (dice I loved that show...)
 
Right up until you get peeps talking about RL physics and maths that lead to such things like Anti-Gravity.

I mean, finding out that Time Travel was theoretically possible by the current laws of physics as we know them was a mind trip and a half, likewise generating Wormholes has been a thing for a while now, the only issue is keeping them open.
You've worded this poorly and it could be interpreted in several different ways. While it's entirely possible you intended the correct meaning, I'm still going to correct you. Wormholes remain a purely theoretical phenomenon and have never been observed in nature or produced in a lab.

There are things, such as wormholes, that are possible within our current models of reality that may or may not actually exist or be possible. To quote a great movie, "It's only a model." Creating a model that perfectly reflects reality is the ultimate objective of physics. One should keep in mind when discussing these sorts of things that we already know that the models that allow them are flawed. Relativity and Quantum Mechanics are fairly famously incompatible with each other.
 
Not quite. If you are close to (but still outside) the sphere you are going to get some side vectors, granted given a sphere of even density those side vectors would cancel themselvs out, but that still results in a gravitational pull of slightly less than you'd get from a point source of the same total mass.

How would it result in a total pull less than the same mass as a point source - Gauss's law should have it being equal for any symmetrical distribution ?

Gauss's law! That's the term I was failing to remember. Yes.

And yes, by Gauss's law, TheUnicorn is not correct. The canceling forces don't actually mitigate. The summed forces when you break it down into appropriate vectors add back up. It really does all work out, though it's been YEARS since I studied the math to prove it. But it's the same principle that makes it so that, if you're in a hollow sphere at the center of a larger sphere, you experience no gravity anywhere despite potentially being closer to one wall than the others. All the gravitic forces cancel out inside.

Likewise, all the gravitic forces that aren't pointing to the center of gravity if you're outside a sphere of matter cancel and then re-add to make it indistinguishable from any other sphere of identical mass and center of gravity.
 
You've worded this poorly and it could be interpreted in several different ways. While it's entirely possible you intended the correct meaning, I'm still going to correct you. Wormholes remain a purely theoretical phenomenon and have never been observed in nature or produced in a lab.

There are things, such as wormholes, that are possible within our current models of reality that may or may not actually exist or be possible. To quote a great movie, "It's only a model." Creating a model that perfectly reflects reality is the ultimate objective of physics. One should keep in mind when discussing these sorts of things that we already know that the models that allow them are flawed. Relativity and Quantum Mechanics are fairly famously incompatible with each other.
I see, thank you for the heads up and info-blast.
 
And yes, by Gauss's law, TheUnicorn is not correct.
Yah, you could even say TheUnicorn is hilariously wrong, as became obvious when I sat down to calculate the numbers.

Made even more hilariously wrong by my forgetting that Gauss' law doesn't get a different name for gravitational systems than for electrical charges.

What makes it worse is that this is the second time recently I've made a similar mistake in regards to gravitational fields. It really has been too long since I actually studied this.
 
Yah, you could even say TheUnicorn is hilariously wrong, as became obvious when I sat down to calculate the numbers.

Made even more hilariously wrong by my forgetting that Gauss' law doesn't get a different name for gravitational systems than for electrical charges.

What makes it worse is that this is the second time recently I've made a similar mistake in regards to gravitational fields. It really has been too long since I actually studied this.
I know your pain, there; I make similar silly mistakes for much the same reason, and then kick myself when I go back and re-research them. I just had the Gauss's Law thing come up a few months ago and was reminded of it. Though I'd still forgotten the name. My brain remembers it as an image of concentric hollow shells and the notion that what's actually inside them is irrelevant to the surrounding forces...which isn't a good CATEGORIZATION term. >_<
 
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