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Transposition, or: Ship Happens [Worm/Aoki Hagane no Arpeggio | Arpeggio of Blue Steel]

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00Zy99 said:
Graviton Drive.
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that's the engine where thanatonium is the fuel, but where is Taylor's thanatonium? then there are the girls that had their shipbodies sunk in the animanga, leaving them with the mental model only (like taylor is) and they still have power. lastly there has to be some way to power the nanomaterials before those engines otherwise we get a chicken-egg dilemma.
 
globalwarmth said:
that's the engine where thanatonium is the fuel, but where is Taylor's thanatonium? then there are the girls that had their shipbodies sunk in the animanga, leaving them with the mental model only (like taylor is) and they still have power. lastly there has to be some way to power the nanomaterials before those engines otherwise we get a chicken-egg dilemma.
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THEY TEAR THEIR POWER WHOLE-SAIL FROM THE VERY FABRIC OF REALITY THROUGH THE POWER OF MOE

*cough*
Sorry about that.
I really don't know what came over me.
 
globalwarmth said:
that's the engine where thanatonium is the fuel, but where is Taylor's thanatonium? then there are the girls that had their shipbodies sunk in the animanga, leaving them with the mental model only (like taylor is) and they still have power. lastly there has to be some way to power the nanomaterials before those engines otherwise we get a chicken-egg dilemma.
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Mental Models have stored charge and can pick up energy from kinetic impacts.

Initial start-up can come from a dock.

globalwarmth said:
emphasis mine. :p
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Whose else would it be?
 
00Zy99 said:
Mental Models have stored charge and can pick up energy from kinetic impacts.
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You mean their Klein fields? Klein fields store energy, but it's been stated it has to be converted to heat or released. I wouldn't put it past the Fog to figure out a way to use that energy for other stuff, though.
globalwarmth said:
there has to be some way to power the nanomaterials before those engines otherwise we get a chicken-egg dilemma.
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The manga series has never shown nanomaterials to be explicitly powered by anything that I can think of. The things made out of nanomaterial, yeah (SGC, Mirror-Ring system, etc.), but not the nanomachines themselves.

Personal head-canon (after discussion with others) is some form of Zero-Point Energy source using virtual particles and quantum foam fluctuations. Steady enough source of energy to power nanomaterial sufficiently, but not fast or strong enough to power up an SGC in a few seconds. That's what Thanatonium is used for directly: generating gravitons at a high enough rate to push thousands of pounds of craft forward, or, alternatively, blast out of a giant canon and tear space-time a new one.
 
ensou said:
You mean their Klein fields? Klein fields store energy, but it's been stated it has to be converted to heat or released. I wouldn't put it past the Fog to figure out a way to use that energy for other stuff, though.
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Indeed. And the point where a Klein Field has to be released in order to prevent Overload depends on the processing power of the ship in question. Ships with higher processing power can more easily manage their Klein Field. I think there was one or two that was able to mange their field so efficiently they could switch between venting and active modes on the fly in the middle of a fight.
 
Noxturne90 said:
. I think there was one or two that was able to mange their field so efficiently they could switch between venting and active modes on the fly in the middle of a fight.
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Possibly a dumb question:
What prevents a ship girl from keeping the Klein field on shield and dumping all that energy in physical capacitors overboard?

Mass effect did it with disposable heat sinks. As much as I hated going back to ammunition as a game mechanic it makes sense that it's a much denser and faster method of disposing unwanted energy than radiating it.
 
globalwarmth said:
Possibly a dumb question:
What prevents a ship girl from keeping the Klein field on shield and dumping all that energy in physical capacitors overboard?

Mass effect did it with disposable heat sinks. As much as I hated going back to ammunition as a game mechanic it makes sense that it's a much denser and faster method of disposing unwanted energy than radiating it.
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Mostly that it is a lot of energy I imagine. Fog Ships are incredibly durable. However, they can still take conventional damage provided that enough force is applied. The Klein Field protects against that damage. That means a physical capacitor has to withstand the same energy that is applied to the field. Which means that if the field takes a hit from a heavy ship cannon, the Capacitor has to be able to withstand all the energy from that hit being dumped into it. I imagine it's possible, but you would need very, very, very good capacitors to pull it off and not just have them overload and explode.

And doing some research, and Battleship Haruna was able to vent stored energy from her Klein Field offensively, particularly while using her Mental Model. She used it to exert almost telekinetic force on her surroundings, shoving soldiers around and knocking away explosives and weaponry.
 
Noxturne90 said:
And doing some research, and Battleship Haruna was able to vent stored energy from her Klein Field offensively, particularly while using her Mental Model. She used it to exert almost telekinetic force on her surroundings, shoving soldiers around and knocking away explosives and weaponry.
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Of course considering the forces that the Klein bottles can absorb (hasn't been outright stated but I think even the light cruisers can laugh at direct nuclear attacks) the amount of energy needed to throw around humans without damaging them from the acceleration or blocking small arms is very minimal.

Ergo a Mental Model can easily channel those little bits of energy with no problem.
 
Noxturne90 said:
Mostly that it is a lot of energy I imagine. Fog Ships are incredibly durable. However, they can still take conventional damage provided that enough force is applied. The Klein Field protects against that damage. That means a physical capacitor has to withstand the same energy that is applied to the field. Which means that if the field takes a hit from a heavy ship cannon, the Capacitor has to be able to withstand all the energy from that hit being dumped into it. I imagine it's possible, but you would need very, very, very good capacitors to pull it off and not just have them overload and explode.
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The obvious solution to this, though, is to just not shunt all the energy into the capacitor at once. Like, electronics 101.

Even a partial shunt would significantly increase the amount of time a Klein Field could be sustained as shielding, and that allows for all kinds of practical wizardry to find ways to dump the excess energy without using the Field itself. Drain it to capacitors and then convert it to heat by running it through heavy resistors, then heat sink that to the outer hull or a water cooling system, or air-cooled radiator vanes. Divert energy from the capacitor or direct shunt it to other energy systems and use it to power additional weapons or reduce primary reactor loads.
 
jwolfe_beta said:
Of course considering the forces that the Klein bottles can absorb (hasn't been outright stated but I think even the light cruisers can laugh at direct nuclear attacks) the amount of energy needed to throw around humans without damaging them from the acceleration or blocking small arms is very minimal.
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A Klein Fields upper limit is strictly tied to a ships Processing Power. The more PP a ship has, the more the Klein Field can hold. I remember one ship getting totally wrecked by a single Corrosive Torpedo at 15% yield because it only had a limited amount of PP, and then one of the top tier ships just shrugging off a full-yield torpedo because she had the PP to spare in managing her Klein Field and fighting at the same time.
 
Speaking up:
My personal impression of the way Fog Ships work is that the processing power a ship can have is dependent on the Union Core of the ship. I've never seen any ships attempt to increase processing power via other external means. Besides, wouldn't hacking the Core be easier as the offsite computer farms act as a vulnerability in the Union Core's defences?
 
Iceflame55 said:
This fic has given me an interesting Story Idea:
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Problem with that, is to fight Entities, you need to travel to other dimensions to bring fight to shards themselves. Fog is not capable of that.


Noxturne90 said:
And doing some research, and Battleship Haruna was able to vent stored energy from her Klein Field offensively, particularly while using her Mental Model. She used it to exert almost telekinetic force on her surroundings, shoving soldiers around and knocking away explosives and weaponry.
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That's specifically not true.
Feats Haruna demonstrated - is just more advanced applications of Klein field, than just defense. One of I-400\2 sisters also does that.
Haruna even says that after all fighting her Klein field only slightly filled.

globalwarmth said:
What prevents a ship girl from keeping the Klein field on shield and dumping all that energy in physical capacitors overboard?

Mass effect did it with disposable heat sinks. As much as I hated going back to ammunition as a game mechanic it makes sense that it's a much denser and faster method of disposing unwanted energy than radiating it.
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[1] [2]
Energy inside Klein effect pretty much unaccessible. But storage is limited and to release it you need to open the bottle venting stored energy. It's VERY noticeable and not instantaneous, and therefore lives ship unprotected in combat situation.

Wave armor creates dimensional sub-pocket to to divert incoming energy. It can be opened to let energy in or out, but not both at the same time. Witch is the point for it to work as shied.

Presumably, in case of super-close combat you can release all stored energy violently, as last resort.


Potato said:
My personal impression of the way Fog Ships work is that the processing power a ship can have is dependent on the Union Core of the ship. I've never seen any ships attempt to increase processing power via other external means. Besides, wouldn't hacking the Core be easier as the offsite computer farms act as a vulnerability in the Union Core's defences?
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Imagine you have.. say Intel i7 powered computer. You theoretically can expand it's power by adding Commodore 64s. Will you?
 
Stahor said:
Imagine you have.. say Intel i7 powered computer. You theoretically can expand it's power by adding Commodore 64s. Will you?
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Mhhmm... Imagine you have an 64 Intel i7 cpus in a top of the line powered server. You can theoretically expand it's power with an offsite relic containing some commodore 64 chips and a unreliable phone line connection running with a 14.4kbps modem. Would you?

How's that? :D
 
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Mandabar said:
How's that?
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Well, you can build computer farms from nanomaterial and resolve 14.4 modem problem, and move to i486...


globalwarmth said:
Tay notices that her dad needs money and instead of hacking the planet she starts selling power to the city!
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In this story, Taylor has access to gray-goo style nanomaterial. that can make more of itself from anything. Combined with
ensou said:
Nanomaterial can be cannibalized to become traditional material, losing its quantum entanglement in the process.
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this ability it's make-anything ability. From money to gold to californium. This was discussed at length in comments to Cryptekial (Worm/WH40K) but sadly fic is dead at the moment, so won't see applications of it.
Maybe @ensou will explore it. Register as tinker, sell anything he want to Armsmaster. Instant legal money.
 
Potato said:
Speaking up:
My personal impression of the way Fog Ships work is that the processing power a ship can have is dependent on the Union Core of the ship. I've never seen any ships attempt to increase processing power via other external means. Besides, wouldn't hacking the Core be easier as the offsite computer farms act as a vulnerability in the Union Core's defences?
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IIRC Iona/I-401 was slowly increasing her processing power over the course of the manga by both expanding her core and/or increasing the amount of NM that made up her ship body and using it either as 'offsite' computing directly or to build 'offsite' computers that she could link to.
 
Stahor said:
This was discussed at length in comments to Cryptekial (Worm/WH40K) but sadly fic is dead at the moment, so won't see applications of it.
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Oh. My. God. This story is amazing, thanks for linking it even if it is sadly slumbering (I deny that it's dead, it would be too sad). *Hugs @Noxturne90*

On another note I've always wondered if the Klein Field and Wave Force Armor are the same thing with different names, or two separate abilities.
 
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Mandabar said:
On another note I've always wondered if the Klein Field and Wave Force Armor are the same thing with different names, or two separate abilities.
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One is the technology/science behind the other. Wave-Force Armor is composed of a Klein field. Like... a UNSC Magnetic Accelerator Cannon (from Halo) is really a coilgun.

EDIT: One is the overarching system, the other is how the system functions. I was trying to keep it simple.

Stahor said:
Register as tinker, sell anything she wants to Armsmaster. Instant legal money.
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She could. She's kind of (rightfully) annoyed/pissed at Armsmaster right now, so that's a hurdle that'd have to be dealt with first.

The problem is she's a Brute, or at least that's what everybody now thinks. She's resigned to her Shaker rating from the Wave-Force armor, because that's the sort of defensive ability you don't mind people knowing about: it gives you an appearance of invulnerability, the same way GG's force-field does. Taylor is more than aware, though, that anything beyond that is going to start getting her attention. And not necessarily attention in the way she wants.

Taking a high-power Brute/Shaker and adding a (quite honestly broken) Tinker ability to the mix is going to get people scrutinizing her further, which is the complete opposite of what Taylor wants while trying to keep her AI-nature a secret.

Not to mention Armsmaster wouldn't give up until he knows how she's making the materials, and "self-replicating nanomachines" would not comfort anybody. Taylor is very much apocalypse material, and the PRT would slap an S-class designation on her in a heartbeat and then watch her every move like a hawk, even if she'd never shown threatening moves, just because she has that potential.
 
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ensou said:
Wave-Force Armor is composed of a Klein field.
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No. Wave-force armor is a magnet and Klein field is a magnetic field, to use analogy. See page from manga: [link]

ensou said:
adding a (quite honestly broken) Tinker ability to the mix
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She can set up entirely different identity and body for tinker persona. Bypasses Armsmaster prejudice and don't heaps new powers to Relentless. Hell, she can make third for vehicle-tinker and engage in hot, but very short lived rivalry with Squealer.
Does not solve "where s/he gets all of that" problem, but probably puts under less scrutiny than if Relentless selling it.

As an alternative, she can use her super computer powers to find Toybox or Elite contacts and trade with them, with leads to Number Man and potential Fun Times.
 
Stahor said:
No. Wave-force armor is a magnet and Klein field is a magnetic field, to use analogy. See page from manga: [link]


She can set up entirely different identity and body for tinker persona. Bypasses Armsmaster prejudice and don't heaps new powers to Relentless. Hell, she can make third for vehicle-tinker and engage in hot, but very short lived rivalry with Squealer.
Does not solve "where s/he gets all of that" problem, but probably puts under less scrutiny than if Relentless selling it.

As an alternative, she can use her super computer powers to find Toybox or Elite contacts and trade with them, with leads to Number Man and potential Fun Times.
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Personality with matter transmutation powers? they'll notice the ship graveyard/whatever scrapyard she hits next shrinking quick enough...
 
Alayn said:
I thought she could shapeshift?
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ReadingComprehension.exe has stopped working? Shapeshifting and shapechanging are the same thing there buddy.

But yes, her mutable appearance coupled with her ability to generate new voices is very much Taylor made (ha, I made a funny) for multiple personas, though this is of limited utility as they'd all have the same powers, though making simulacra she can infiltrate into the gangs as unpowered mooks might be interesting.
 
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