Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)
- Thread starter yrsillar
- Start date
- Original Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] Truth lies at the intersection between reality and perception. Communication is the method by which the Truth is changed, inch by inch, and year by year.
The latter feels too Hui-y, and this fits more with where Ling Qi is going.
The latter feels too Hui-y, and this fits more with where Ling Qi is going.
- Pronouns
- He
[X] Truth lies at the intersection between reality and perception. Communication is the method by which the Truth is changed, inch by inch, and year by year.
- Location
- Spain
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] Truth lies at the intersection between reality and perception. Communication is the method by which the Truth is changed, inch by inch, and year by year.
[X] Truth lies at the intersection between reality and perception. Communication is the method by which the Truth is changed, inch by inch, and year by year.
Another way to examine the insights is to peel them back a bit, to what Ling Qi is looking to influence in either case.
In the first one, the object being ultimately impacted is Truth. Like, grammatically and logically. She uses Communication to alter the dual pillars of Truth that are Reality and Perception. In the end, her efforts go towards shifting the state of Truth.
In the second one, she's highlighting two prongs that are in communication with each other, Truth and Lies, from which Perception is wrought, which in turn determines Reality's shape. Her efforts, when utilizing those tools, are ultimately oriented towards shaping Reality.
So, one question in each case is why? In (2) that seems pretty straightforward. It's changing how things actually are, through shifting perceptions. That's kind of our whole bag. At least in terms of our biggest successes, like the summit. For (1), it's a bit more confusing. She's trying to change Truth, but what even is it, and why does Ling Qi care?
Truth in option (1) is not objective reality. It's the combination of what there is in the world plus what people think about it. It's subjective and mutable, and Ling Qi intends to change it via Communication. Interestingly, option (1) in no way at all rules out the use of deception or misrepresentation in the course of the Communication used to alter the Truth. The insight simply defines Truth as whatever people believe that isn't completely incompatible with reality, no matter how they reach that point.
In that way, the two insights are actually pretty similar. Both are fine with lying our asses off if we feel like doing it. Neither condemns it in any way, really.
No, I think my actual problem with the first insight option is its fixation. It aims at a thing called Truth, more than either reality or perception; Truth is the insight's goal. But it doesn't justify that obsession. It doesn't explain why the shell of an ideal is so singularly important that it's worth prioritizing over its actual contents, as seen here in any objectivity of Truth being hollowed from it and set to the side. Why is it still a prize for Ling Qi to hold so high?
It, to me, feels like it misses the words and lessons of Huisheng and Jia Hong, that it fails to let loose the ghost of a misbegotten Truth and instead affixes its ruined corpse upon our brow in parody made cruel by our lack of intention. It is not tenable to fail to escape the dragging weight of Truth if all we've done is redefine Truth to mean nothing but whatever happens to be the status quo. It's not the insight of a Sovereign-to-be.
Also, again, I cannot emphasize enough how much "Truth" in the first insight option doesn't mean "Truth" the way people want it to. It's, like, the "overton window" or some shit. "Truth" in the first insight is something like a sociological measure of tolerated beliefs, not whether things are factual, accurate, or sincere. It's fixing the Truth quibbles by completely redefining it to an entirely new context and framework. No vestiges of the old remain.
I don't hate it independently, but I am a bit puzzled by it being an option. And it's all but guaranteed to be a continuing source of confusion, because of the radical departure in terminology, which this entire arc was designed to put an end to. From a narrative clarity and "new slate" perspective, keeping around a zombie Truth which doesn't mean Truth isn't really in our best interests, imo.
In the first one, the object being ultimately impacted is Truth. Like, grammatically and logically. She uses Communication to alter the dual pillars of Truth that are Reality and Perception. In the end, her efforts go towards shifting the state of Truth.
In the second one, she's highlighting two prongs that are in communication with each other, Truth and Lies, from which Perception is wrought, which in turn determines Reality's shape. Her efforts, when utilizing those tools, are ultimately oriented towards shaping Reality.
So, one question in each case is why? In (2) that seems pretty straightforward. It's changing how things actually are, through shifting perceptions. That's kind of our whole bag. At least in terms of our biggest successes, like the summit. For (1), it's a bit more confusing. She's trying to change Truth, but what even is it, and why does Ling Qi care?
Truth in option (1) is not objective reality. It's the combination of what there is in the world plus what people think about it. It's subjective and mutable, and Ling Qi intends to change it via Communication. Interestingly, option (1) in no way at all rules out the use of deception or misrepresentation in the course of the Communication used to alter the Truth. The insight simply defines Truth as whatever people believe that isn't completely incompatible with reality, no matter how they reach that point.
In that way, the two insights are actually pretty similar. Both are fine with lying our asses off if we feel like doing it. Neither condemns it in any way, really.
No, I think my actual problem with the first insight option is its fixation. It aims at a thing called Truth, more than either reality or perception; Truth is the insight's goal. But it doesn't justify that obsession. It doesn't explain why the shell of an ideal is so singularly important that it's worth prioritizing over its actual contents, as seen here in any objectivity of Truth being hollowed from it and set to the side. Why is it still a prize for Ling Qi to hold so high?
It, to me, feels like it misses the words and lessons of Huisheng and Jia Hong, that it fails to let loose the ghost of a misbegotten Truth and instead affixes its ruined corpse upon our brow in parody made cruel by our lack of intention. It is not tenable to fail to escape the dragging weight of Truth if all we've done is redefine Truth to mean nothing but whatever happens to be the status quo. It's not the insight of a Sovereign-to-be.
Also, again, I cannot emphasize enough how much "Truth" in the first insight option doesn't mean "Truth" the way people want it to. It's, like, the "overton window" or some shit. "Truth" in the first insight is something like a sociological measure of tolerated beliefs, not whether things are factual, accurate, or sincere. It's fixing the Truth quibbles by completely redefining it to an entirely new context and framework. No vestiges of the old remain.
I don't hate it independently, but I am a bit puzzled by it being an option. And it's all but guaranteed to be a continuing source of confusion, because of the radical departure in terminology, which this entire arc was designed to put an end to. From a narrative clarity and "new slate" perspective, keeping around a zombie Truth which doesn't mean Truth isn't really in our best interests, imo.
Theaxofwar
Definitely not a Bunny Cat in disguise.
- Location
- Standing right behind you
[X] Truth lies at the intersection between reality and perception. Communication is the method by which the Truth is changed, inch by inch, and year by year.
- Location
- Staring into the void
This is true for our universe, but not true for the Forge universe.
Where everything from the phases of the moon and seasons, to math has all been made by someone ascending to make it so. They permanently altered the universe to match their perceptions of how it should be.
- Location
- A bed
[X] Truth lies at the intersection between reality and perception. Communication is the method by which the Truth is changed, inch by inch, and year by year.
Yeah, that's fair. (1) is kind of muddling and lacks clarity. (2) is clearer and more focused on actually doing and being a communicator. It's a good Way building block imo. Like if you are a communicator or a diplomat or an orator or a musician this is what you do.
Part of the appeal I guess is that it resolves the "issues" here by going for gods sake stop obsessing over some idea of greater "Truth" you don't even know what that is. Like it follows on well from all the previous character issues around sincerity and lies and this:
But at the same time I feel that maybe it's not entirely satisfying because the last two updates have kind of been unclear? Ling Qi jumps around a lot and it feels like she never really elaborates on her thoughts. And, fair, yrs doesn't want to write detailed philosophical essays but at the same time it can leave it kind of unclear how Ling Qi is thinking about things like Truth and Shenhua, why she considers them important, and how she's reaching the conclusions she's reaching. Dunno.
Part of the appeal I guess is that it resolves the "issues" here by going for gods sake stop obsessing over some idea of greater "Truth" you don't even know what that is. Like it follows on well from all the previous character issues around sincerity and lies and this:
But at the same time I feel that maybe it's not entirely satisfying because the last two updates have kind of been unclear? Ling Qi jumps around a lot and it feels like she never really elaborates on her thoughts. And, fair, yrs doesn't want to write detailed philosophical essays but at the same time it can leave it kind of unclear how Ling Qi is thinking about things like Truth and Shenhua, why she considers them important, and how she's reaching the conclusions she's reaching. Dunno.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] Truth lies at the intersection between reality and perception. Communication is the method by which the Truth is changed, inch by inch, and year by year.
Hmm.
@yrsillar I feel like a jerk (and am) for tagging you, but the more I look at it, the more I'm seeing serious structural issues with option 1. It's, ironically, an intersection of language and narrative. Put briefly, the option preserves the word "Truth", but not the sense in which it's ever been used before. This makes discussing it, whether looking forwards or back, somewhere between confusing and impossible. Considering the point of this little arc was to put to bed the baggage and confusion surrounding Truth, that's a problem. It's replicating the disfunction, requiring us to keep grappling with the basic shape of what Truth is and its relevance to us, this time through some fairly unintuitive framing of what it is.
The status quo? The overton window? Something along those lines? Discussing whether she likes or dislikes it, wants to change or preserve different aspects of it is already feeling like a jumble, and Truth being all of it doesn't lend itself to narrative legibility. Like, with how I think it's being defined here, there's not really any utility in appealing to Truth, because it's just the way how things are. But if it's not meant to be appealed to, I'm not sure why it's the headline attraction deserving of Capitalization the rest of the insight is structured around in the first place, if that makes sense. Though I guess forming an extremely Yin conception of Truth is kind of a funny counterpoint to Cai Shenhua, in a way.
Option 2 doesn't rule out future meditations on Truth(or lies), but it does very helpfully provide a baseline for what role the intuitive, dictionary-standard concept of Truth has in our insight/worldview. Which is also the answer to many of the questions Ling Qi's been wrestling with off and on. It's just very not confusing or unclear on the central subject of Truth's role, which is great. It successfully puts the matter to rest in unambiguous terms.
Anyway, those are my itchy thoughts purged and directed at the correct authority. Hopefully they're some kind of helpful, or at least not too obnoxious.
@yrsillar I feel like a jerk (and am) for tagging you, but the more I look at it, the more I'm seeing serious structural issues with option 1. It's, ironically, an intersection of language and narrative. Put briefly, the option preserves the word "Truth", but not the sense in which it's ever been used before. This makes discussing it, whether looking forwards or back, somewhere between confusing and impossible. Considering the point of this little arc was to put to bed the baggage and confusion surrounding Truth, that's a problem. It's replicating the disfunction, requiring us to keep grappling with the basic shape of what Truth is and its relevance to us, this time through some fairly unintuitive framing of what it is.
The status quo? The overton window? Something along those lines? Discussing whether she likes or dislikes it, wants to change or preserve different aspects of it is already feeling like a jumble, and Truth being all of it doesn't lend itself to narrative legibility. Like, with how I think it's being defined here, there's not really any utility in appealing to Truth, because it's just the way how things are. But if it's not meant to be appealed to, I'm not sure why it's the headline attraction deserving of Capitalization the rest of the insight is structured around in the first place, if that makes sense. Though I guess forming an extremely Yin conception of Truth is kind of a funny counterpoint to Cai Shenhua, in a way.
Option 2 doesn't rule out future meditations on Truth(or lies), but it does very helpfully provide a baseline for what role the intuitive, dictionary-standard concept of Truth has in our insight/worldview. Which is also the answer to many of the questions Ling Qi's been wrestling with off and on. It's just very not confusing or unclear on the central subject of Truth's role, which is great. It successfully puts the matter to rest in unambiguous terms.
Anyway, those are my itchy thoughts purged and directed at the correct authority. Hopefully they're some kind of helpful, or at least not too obnoxious.
Like for all people are concerned about taking subjective truth too far... (2) is the one that emphasises how important it is to think about the consequences of what you say:
[X] Truth and lies are but warp and weft, from them is born perception, from perception descends reality, an orator must wield words as carefully as a master wields their blade.
It's not anything goes. If anything it lays the groundwork for working out how you should be careful and manage the consequences of your words and the world you shape. This is a a good foundation and direction! It's something very important to consider if you're going to be a sovereign! When your Law is their world, you better make sure it's one that actually functions.
Acknowledging that lies and truth are different matters. One of the key risks of lies is that you do not achieve your nominal goals because you were lying to yourself and others about how well your proposals would actually work. Again, an important consideration for someone looking to be a leader and shape the direction of her province, and something that I think people are concerned about here. Emphasising the importance of thinking about the consequences of your words and how you perceive the world is not a bad thing here. Making sure you are careful to know when something is a lie, and when it is acceptable is really important!
I get why people are concerned. People don't want to go from "perception shapes reality" to "we make our own reality, we live in a post-Truth society". But understanding how truth and lies shape the reality we live in and thus how important it is that they are used carefully and with an eye to the consequences is also vital to avoid doing that.
(2) I think is actually a better solution to the concerns people have here.
[X] Truth and lies are but warp and weft, from them is born perception, from perception descends reality, an orator must wield words as carefully as a master wields their blade.
It's not anything goes. If anything it lays the groundwork for working out how you should be careful and manage the consequences of your words and the world you shape. This is a a good foundation and direction! It's something very important to consider if you're going to be a sovereign! When your Law is their world, you better make sure it's one that actually functions.
Acknowledging that lies and truth are different matters. One of the key risks of lies is that you do not achieve your nominal goals because you were lying to yourself and others about how well your proposals would actually work. Again, an important consideration for someone looking to be a leader and shape the direction of her province, and something that I think people are concerned about here. Emphasising the importance of thinking about the consequences of your words and how you perceive the world is not a bad thing here. Making sure you are careful to know when something is a lie, and when it is acceptable is really important!
I get why people are concerned. People don't want to go from "perception shapes reality" to "we make our own reality, we live in a post-Truth society". But understanding how truth and lies shape the reality we live in and thus how important it is that they are used carefully and with an eye to the consequences is also vital to avoid doing that.
(2) I think is actually a better solution to the concerns people have here.
Oliver_Twister
Idea-Man, He Who Shits Ideas
- Location
- West Africa
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] Truth and lies are but warp and weft, from them is born perception, from perception descends reality, an orator must wield words as carefully as a master wields their blade.
Nvm. I've been convinced. Plus I like the idea of changing something (reality) rather than the state of it.
Since Ling Qi learned the primal dance and now knows every dance, I wonder if she can learn both primal dreams and nightmares (Lies and this perceptions) and then use them to master every story possible?
Based on the thread arguments, option 3 seems closer to it.
And Ling Qi is specifically the sensible, sanitized Hui of Renxiang's group, with her Dream walking, story telling, and attempts to bring people together. Remember, Palace of One started the Hui and they were all about creating a unique ES identity.
So I'm okay becoming a bit more "Hui-like", if we're talking about the OG Hui. We already have existing concepts and insights in place to bit turn us into the Hui.
Nvm. I've been convinced. Plus I like the idea of changing something (reality) rather than the state of it.
Since Ling Qi learned the primal dance and now knows every dance, I wonder if she can learn both primal dreams and nightmares (Lies and this perceptions) and then use them to master every story possible?
Based on the thread arguments, option 3 seems closer to it.
And Ling Qi is specifically the sensible, sanitized Hui of Renxiang's group, with her Dream walking, story telling, and attempts to bring people together. Remember, Palace of One started the Hui and they were all about creating a unique ES identity.
So I'm okay becoming a bit more "Hui-like", if we're talking about the OG Hui. We already have existing concepts and insights in place to bit turn us into the Hui.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] Truth lies at the intersection between reality and perception. Communication is the method by which the Truth is changed, inch by inch, and year by year.