Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)
- Thread starter yrsillar
- Start date
- Original Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
- Pronouns
- They/Them
[X] Truth and lies are but warp and weft, from them is born perception, from perception descends reality, an orator must wield words as carefully as a master wields their blade.
While the first one is pretty good, i personally feel like this one is more accurate over all, especially considering how cultivators work. Its also avoids the whole 'hard objectivity' thing its previous incarnations had.
And while you could mention the Post example, i feel like that's more or less straw-manning the point it's trying to make. Like sure, it's not wrong that if you put up an illusion over a post then people could still walk into it, but that doesn't mean it's a false statement about reality. They walked into the post after all, and therefore they perceive the post's existence, thus it is a part of reality. Or their approximation of it anyway.
While the first one is pretty good, i personally feel like this one is more accurate over all, especially considering how cultivators work. Its also avoids the whole 'hard objectivity' thing its previous incarnations had.
And while you could mention the Post example, i feel like that's more or less straw-manning the point it's trying to make. Like sure, it's not wrong that if you put up an illusion over a post then people could still walk into it, but that doesn't mean it's a false statement about reality. They walked into the post after all, and therefore they perceive the post's existence, thus it is a part of reality. Or their approximation of it anyway.
Not to be rude, but this is a discussion about an inherently philosophical and subjective topic that has no objective answer. "Beating around the bush" is kind of the nature of the game in this sort of situation.
Tasoli
Life is for Living
- Location
- Behind the Keyboard.
Key word was in that sentence was "same"
Discordians claim that nobody who observes reality actually sees underlying reality but marely a grid created by their own perception. I feel like both these options folow the same logic at different levels.
[X] Truth lies at the intersection between reality and perception. Communication is the method by which the Truth is changed, inch by inch, and year by year.
ContemplateLife
Philosopher Thesaurus
- Location
- Canada
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[x] Truth lies at the intersection between reality and perception. Communication is the method by which the Truth is changed, inch by inch, and year by year.
BagFullOfLizards
Some bag, mostly lizards
- Location
- A bag
[X] Truth lies at the intersection between reality and perception. Communication is the method by which the Truth is changed, inch by inch, and year by year.
- Location
- Space between realms
- Pronouns
- He
[X] Truth lies at the intersection between reality and perception. Communication is the method by which the Truth is changed, inch by inch, and year by year.
- Location
- Red Blood on Golden Shield
[X] Truth lies at the intersection between reality and perception. Communication is the method by which the Truth is changed, inch by inch, and year by year.
- Location
- United States
[X] Truth lies at the intersection between reality and perception. Communication is the method by which the Truth is changed, inch by inch, and year by year.
[X] Truth lies at the intersection between reality and perception. Communication is the method by which the Truth is changed, inch by inch, and year by year.
[x] Truth lies at the intersection between reality and perception. Communication is the method by which the Truth is changed, inch by inch, and year by year.
Wiadi
Uncompromising Radical Leftist
- Location
- Something Clever
- Pronouns
- She/Her
[X] Truth and lies are but warp and weft, from them is born perception, from perception descends reality, an orator must wield words as carefully as a master wields their blade.
Starting to get some real "I refute it thus" energy from all the arguments about the post still existing, TBH.
Starting to get some real "I refute it thus" energy from all the arguments about the post still existing, TBH.
- Location
- Not Telling
[X] Truth lies at the intersection between reality and perception. Communication is the method by which the Truth is changed, inch by inch, and year by year.
CedeTheBees
Probably high right now
- Location
- Somewhere
- Pronouns
- They/Them
[X] Truth lies at the intersection between reality and perception. Communication is the method by which the Truth is changed, inch by inch, and year by year.
[X] Truth lies at the intersection between reality and perception. Communication is the method by which the Truth is changed, inch by inch, and year by year.
I've never been a fan of the philosophical schools that defend that reality is a consequence of perception, as if perception was the cause of reality instead of the other way around.
"If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?"
Yes, it does. Of course it does, why wouldn't it? The air vibrations are produced and transmitted regardless of if someone hears it or not.
Reality exists independently of perception. If all of humanity were to disappear right now the moon would still turn around the Earth, fire would burn all the same, and trees would make sound when they fall.
Perception is but our way, flawed as it is, to take in information from the world and process it into something we can understand and act upon. It's living beings's way of obtaining stimulus to react to.
I guess than rather that Truth we would be talking about laws (as in real world physical laws), facts, data, equations or something to that effect.
Subjective Truth only becomes relevant when it comes to human creations: morality, laws (as in judicial laws), religion and so on.
Stories, at the end of the day. Not to undermine the worth of stories. Ask any anthropologist and they will be more than happy to explain how stories was one keystones that allowed the human species to go beyond the stage of pack into tribe then into civilisation.
But stories are still made up, and thus they have no more truth than the creator, storyteller or listener decide to attach to them at any given time.
If humans didn't exist, neither would any of them. Fundamentaly different from facts, data and natural laws.
I've never been a fan of the philosophical schools that defend that reality is a consequence of perception, as if perception was the cause of reality instead of the other way around.
"If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?"
Yes, it does. Of course it does, why wouldn't it? The air vibrations are produced and transmitted regardless of if someone hears it or not.
Reality exists independently of perception. If all of humanity were to disappear right now the moon would still turn around the Earth, fire would burn all the same, and trees would make sound when they fall.
Perception is but our way, flawed as it is, to take in information from the world and process it into something we can understand and act upon. It's living beings's way of obtaining stimulus to react to.
I guess than rather that Truth we would be talking about laws (as in real world physical laws), facts, data, equations or something to that effect.
Subjective Truth only becomes relevant when it comes to human creations: morality, laws (as in judicial laws), religion and so on.
Stories, at the end of the day. Not to undermine the worth of stories. Ask any anthropologist and they will be more than happy to explain how stories was one keystones that allowed the human species to go beyond the stage of pack into tribe then into civilisation.
But stories are still made up, and thus they have no more truth than the creator, storyteller or listener decide to attach to them at any given time.
If humans didn't exist, neither would any of them. Fundamentaly different from facts, data and natural laws.
Last edited:
- Location
- Colorado
[X] Truth lies at the intersection between reality and perception. Communication is the method by which the Truth is changed, inch by inch, and year by year.
[X] Truth lies at the intersection between reality and perception. Communication is the method by which the Truth is changed, inch by inch, and year by year.
Hmmm, interpreting these insights is tricky.
Looking at (1) I'd read as saying:
(2) raises some questions, and could be interpreted multiple ways. There's an impulse to read the first part ("Truth and lies are but warp and weft...") as essentially treating truth and lies as interchangeable and the important thing is the overall perception they form.
Alternatively, we may read truth and lies as different threads. The insight is saying that both are valid tools that may be and are used to define perception. Looking at it this way, we may control the insight by acknowledging that truth and lies may have different consequences, and you want to tailor your weave appropriately. This is a bit uncertain because the "but" in the sentence kind of implies that the differences between them aren't important, but that could also just be there to sound poetic. Does @yrsillar want to comment on intention here? (also fine to just say that you'd look at how we're interpreting and discussing it ofc)
(2) is also very different from (1) in terms of framing and focus. Something that can be confusing here I think is that "truth" and "reality" do not appear to mean the same things in the two insights. In (1) "Truth" is the product of reality and perception, while in (2) "Truth" means, like, telling the truth. "Reality" in (2) appears to be fairly similar to "Truth" in (1). Truth here is focused on as something like a tool used by a master of communication, that needs to be used carefully in their efforts to shape people's perceptions and how they see and interact with the world.
I attempted a diagram here that maybe helps??
By and large I think the two insights have different focuses. (1) seems more to be pondering on how societal "truth" is defined and shaped by communication, while (2) is more focused on being a communicator. One's more big picture, one's more about a job. One's theory, one's practice.
Looking at (1) I'd read as saying:
- "Truth" is defined as the product of reality (the "objective world") and perception
- Both reality and perception may be altered by Communication, either by changing how people think or by motivating action to change the world
- This also (probably) emphasises Truth as communal reality/consensus in keeping with the the rest of our cultivation as Abeo notes, since social interaction is what Communication is for. That being said, "consensus" is probably too perception leaning? Not sure what the right way to frame this is - or even how much it's really holding "Truth" as an ideal...
- Anchoring "Truth" in both reality and perception means that Truth is, importantly, not objective reality. It does imply that it may be constrained by it though, and as an Insight, may be argued that this holds that it is important to try to attend to how reality may bound Truth.
- It should also be emphasised that this very much does not hold Truth as some immutable ideal. It is something to be shaped, and philosophically taking this as an insight would imply that its active shaping is a core interest of ours.
~~~
(2) raises some questions, and could be interpreted multiple ways. There's an impulse to read the first part ("Truth and lies are but warp and weft...") as essentially treating truth and lies as interchangeable and the important thing is the overall perception they form.
Alternatively, we may read truth and lies as different threads. The insight is saying that both are valid tools that may be and are used to define perception. Looking at it this way, we may control the insight by acknowledging that truth and lies may have different consequences, and you want to tailor your weave appropriately. This is a bit uncertain because the "but" in the sentence kind of implies that the differences between them aren't important, but that could also just be there to sound poetic. Does @yrsillar want to comment on intention here? (also fine to just say that you'd look at how we're interpreting and discussing it ofc)
(2) is also very different from (1) in terms of framing and focus. Something that can be confusing here I think is that "truth" and "reality" do not appear to mean the same things in the two insights. In (1) "Truth" is the product of reality and perception, while in (2) "Truth" means, like, telling the truth. "Reality" in (2) appears to be fairly similar to "Truth" in (1). Truth here is focused on as something like a tool used by a master of communication, that needs to be used carefully in their efforts to shape people's perceptions and how they see and interact with the world.
I attempted a diagram here that maybe helps??
By and large I think the two insights have different focuses. (1) seems more to be pondering on how societal "truth" is defined and shaped by communication, while (2) is more focused on being a communicator. One's more big picture, one's more about a job. One's theory, one's practice.
Hmmm I wonder if this will have any impact on our communication domain?
[ ] Truth lies at the intersection between reality and perception. Communication is the method by which the Truth is changed, inch by inch, and year by year.
This sort of aligns with what we've been doing all along, which is incrementally working towards changing attitudes on how things are viewed (relations with the Polar peeps, Weilu stuff, etc.). I guess it makes us better at convincing others of changing their ideas about things slowly?
[X] Truth and lies are but warp and weft, from them is born perception, from perception descends reality, an orator must wield words as carefully as a master wields their blade.
This one honestly sounds more fun and seems on the face of it to have more direct application, especially with the ending about wielding words like a master does their blade. Imagine being able to rewrite reality in the middle of battle just by convincing your opponent of what is real/not real. Oh you thought you stabbed me? You actually just stabbed yourself! I'll throw a vote to this one to make it more interesting but they both have their applications that could be useful.
[ ] Truth lies at the intersection between reality and perception. Communication is the method by which the Truth is changed, inch by inch, and year by year.
This sort of aligns with what we've been doing all along, which is incrementally working towards changing attitudes on how things are viewed (relations with the Polar peeps, Weilu stuff, etc.). I guess it makes us better at convincing others of changing their ideas about things slowly?
[X] Truth and lies are but warp and weft, from them is born perception, from perception descends reality, an orator must wield words as carefully as a master wields their blade.
This one honestly sounds more fun and seems on the face of it to have more direct application, especially with the ending about wielding words like a master does their blade. Imagine being able to rewrite reality in the middle of battle just by convincing your opponent of what is real/not real. Oh you thought you stabbed me? You actually just stabbed yourself! I'll throw a vote to this one to make it more interesting but they both have their applications that could be useful.