Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
[X] Attempt your own proposal, let both parties discuss and petition their patrons for which spirits or gods would be most suitable to divine diplomacy, and let only these select few receive major dedications within shared spaces. (+1 ES and WS Favorability, -2 PT favorability. Ensures short term turbulence and theological debate, may allow greater stability. Supports foreign Quarter goals.)

Let's hope this proposal involves Hanyi. I'm also looking forward to the Bao potential boyfriend being told to organize Hanyi touring WS.
 
Adhoc vote count started by EternalObserver on Oct 8, 2023 at 4:40 AM, finished with 128 posts and 76 votes.
 
[X] Attempt your own proposal, let both parties discuss and petition their patrons for which spirits or gods would be most suitable to divine diplomacy, and let only these select few receive major dedications within shared spaces. (+1 ES and WS Favorability, -2 PT favorability. Ensures short term turbulence and theological debate, may allow greater stability. Supports foreign Quarter goals.)
 
Ok, the thread has slowed down a bit, so I wanted to do a little summary about the cultivation objective line-out from now until cyan:

we are currently at G5. In order to hit G6 we need:

- 28 concept levels -> we already have 49
- create and master a personal successor -> we have created 2 successors now and FFS should be very close to the softcap for it to count here.

so it is looking really good so far.

So the next question is: what do we need to go from G6 to G7?

- we need 44 concept levels -> we already have that
- we need 10 insights -> we have 8 regular ones. 10, if advanced insights count too.
- we need 3 advanced insights -> we have 2

so we need to master at least 2 arts (more if we dont like the insights of one) and get into another tribulation for the advanced insight. That is a bit more effort, but it looks honestly quite doable to me with our current progression pace.

next up: what do we need to go from G7 to G8?

- we need 60 concept levels -> we dont have that yet, but thats sounds easy enough with our current pace
- we need to complete our Name Quest

This is where things get a bit difficult:

Yrsillar described it as an event that will distill the concepts and insights we have up to that point and 'lock' them into our first Word. every insight and concept afterward does not contribute towards it anymore.

So, if we want to be completionist, then we want to fill all our domain insight slots until early to mid G7 so that we can do the Name Quest afterward.
The current formula for insight slots is 3+2*stage, so by G7, we will have 17 slots. In order to fill the remaining ones, we would need to master at least 9 arts. More if we want to refuse an insight.

Arts currently in progress are:

SNR, BKSD, MoSS, LFWD, WHR, UGM, FFS, ToN

this is a total of 8 arts. However, we might not slot SNR. UGM might not get completed anymore (at least from the general sentiment I have read) and WHR kinda depends on how the rework goes.

So in order to hit 9 arts until G7, we would need to learn or make 1-4 arts that end in G7 or earlier for the insights.
That isnt impossible, but it is quite a grind, tbh.


Once we hit G8, we only need a bunch of xp until we hit the 'Peak' of Green and attempt the breakthrough. Before that, I still see some stretch goals though:

- we get 2 more insight slots in G8 and it would be nice if we could fill them before the breakthrough
- Since we need to cap out so many arts for the Name quest, it would make sense to consolidate afterwards. We can take G8 to forge a full set of arts with the new Name as foundation. So by the time we do the breakthrough, we will have a fully coherent art line-up that is fully at G8 potency.
- we need to do the Suyin quest for the breakthrough pill


What do you think?
 
Ok, the thread has slowed down a bit, so I wanted to do a little summary about the cultivation objective line-out from now until cyan:

we are currently at G5. In order to hit G6 we need:

- 28 concept levels -> we already have 49
- create and master a personal successor -> we have created 2 successors now and FFS should be very close to the softcap for it to count here.

so it is looking really good so far.

So the next question is: what do we need to go from G6 to G7?

- we need 44 concept levels -> we already have that
- we need 10 insights -> we have 8 regular ones. 10, if advanced insights count too.
- we need 3 advanced insights -> we have 2

so we need to master at least 2 arts (more if we dont like the insights of one) and get into another tribulation for the advanced insight. That is a bit more effort, but it looks honestly quite doable to me with our current progression pace.

next up: what do we need to go from G7 to G8?

- we need 60 concept levels -> we dont have that yet, but thats sounds easy enough with our current pace
- we need to complete our Name Quest

This is where things get a bit difficult:

Yrsillar described it as an event that will distill the concepts and insights we have up to that point and 'lock' them into our first Word. every insight and concept afterward does not contribute towards it anymore.

So, if we want to be completionist, then we want to fill all our domain insight slots until early to mid G7 so that we can do the Name Quest afterward.
The current formula for insight slots is 3+2*stage, so by G7, we will have 17 slots. In order to fill the remaining ones, we would need to master at least 9 arts. More if we want to refuse an insight.

Arts currently in progress are:

SNR, BKSD, MoSS, LFWD, WHR, UGM, FFS, ToN

this is a total of 8 arts. However, we might not slot SNR. UGM might not get completed anymore (at least from the general sentiment I have read) and WHR kinda depends on how the rework goes.

So in order to hit 9 arts until G7, we would need to learn or make 1-4 arts that end in G7 or earlier for the insights.
That isnt impossible, but it is quite a grind, tbh.

Once we hit G8, we only need a bunch of xp until we hit the 'Peak' of Green and attempt the breakthrough. Before that, I still see some stretch goals though:

- we get 2 more insight slots in G8 and it would be nice if we could fill them before the breakthrough
- Since we need to cap out so many arts for the Name quest, it would make sense to consolidate afterwards. We can take G8 to forge a full set of arts with the new Name as foundation. So by the time we do the breakthrough, we will have a fully coherent art line-up that is fully at G8 potency.
- we need to do the Suyin quest for the breakthrough pill

What do you think?

I'm not sure about the need of filling all the Insight slots just for completionism's sake.
What benefits would it even bring? For previous breakthroughs there were a list of objectives to fulfill in order to get breakthrough bonus. The priority of those objectives was a heavily debated matter.
Is there something like that for the Cyan breakthrough? Will we get more bonuses the more Insight slots are filled?

I don't think so, at least.
Since the purpose of the Name Quest is to consolidate all the Insights into a coherent Name, we should focus on getting Insights that fit well together, as well as modifying the Insights that don't quite fit in. As is the case with our Truth/Sincerity Insight.

Btw, at which point do we get our first Word, which is slated to be Communication. Is it right after Cyan breakthrough?

In any case, I don't see the worth on searching for new arts or finishing half-forgotten scrub arts just to fill Insight slots for it's own sake.
If we come across or are gifted an awesome art that mesh well with our build then, sure, we can pursue it.
But I feel like, at this point of Ling Qi's cultivation, the remaining Insights should mainly come from her Successors Arts.
This also links with the full G8 suite you mentioned. Sucessor Arts can be enhanced, both increased in potency and refining the effects, so I don't see the need to make a whole new set unless some of them fall too far back.

In any case, most of our future efforts should be focused on making an mastering those Successors Arts, crafting them into a coherent, synergetic suite.
We'll need arts to fulfill different roles: Cultivation (SSC+), Attack (FFS), Perception (ToN), Armor/Defense (SNR+TFR+), Movement (LFWT+), Construct (BKSD+), Formations (WHR) and any other I'm forgetting.
With those 7 plus the eight we already have, that makes 15 Insights.
So I'm not convinced we need to go out of our way to fill the remaining two, since we can also get a couple from the original arts.
 
I'm not sure about the need of filling all the Insight slots just for completionism's sake.
What benefits would it even bring? For previous breakthroughs there were a list of objectives to fulfill in order to get breakthrough bonus. The priority of those objectives was a heavily debated matter.
Is there something like that for the Cyan breakthrough? Will we get more bonuses the more Insight slots are filled?
I suspect that the more (compatible) Insights a cultivator has, the easier it is to remain a functioning person instead of a broken husk like Meizhen's dad as one climbs the Realms. More building material for a well-rounded personality, so to speak.
But I don't know if Yrs agrees.
 
I suspect that the more (compatible) Insights a cultivator has, the easier it is to remain a functioning person instead of a broken husk like Meizhen's dad as one climbs the Realms. More building material for a well-rounded personality, so to speak.
But I don't know if Yrs agrees.
Isn't Meizhen's dad a broken husk for reasons specific to how he and his family intentionally cultivated him? We need to be careful, but there's no point in fearing we're going to accidentally mutilate ourself in a way that took others a lot of hard work to do to themselves intentionally.
 
Isn't Meizhen's dad a broken husk for reasons specific to how he and his family intentionally cultivated him? We need to be careful, but there's no point in fearing we're going to accidentally mutilate ourself in a way that took others a lot of hard work to do to themselves intentionally.
Hmm, then a better example of why it's vital to construct a well-rounded foundation would be the guy who invented ASA.

Gong Guo let out a long breath, sending his graying mustache swaying as memories faded away, and he was left once again in the dim light of his study. The jade tablet he held in his hands shook slightly as he remembered the ventures of a much younger and more reckless man. Within the tablet were all of the arts he had developed based on the insights he had gained during his time in the desert, from the humble Ashen Shadow art to his own Eternal Ashen Yearning art.
"Father, the Lord Marshal is here," his youngest son, Gong Da, said deferentially from the door of his study.
"And I shall not keep him waiting," Gong Guo, Patriarch of the Gong clan. said as he turned. He had achieved the fourth realm and even reached the cusp of the fifth, but he had balked at the sacrifice his Way demanded to go further. He could only hope that one of his descendants would refine the family's path to something less harsh. Perhaps his granddaughter would succeed; she was such a bright young girl. "Son, I shall be giving this over to you," he said gravely, holding out the tablet.


I asked Yrs about this, and he said:
Yes, his insight was essentially vampiric, in nature, at third and fourth realm this could be focused down on enemies alone, but going up to indigo he felt he would become something far too harsh and hungry. A young lone man's insight clashing with the father and ruler he became
 
I'm not sure about the need of filling all the Insight slots just for completionism's sake.
What benefits would it even bring? For previous breakthroughs there were a list of objectives to fulfill in order to get breakthrough bonus. The priority of those objectives was a heavily debated matter.
Is there something like that for the Cyan breakthrough? Will we get more bonuses the more Insight slots are filled?

I don't think so, at least.
Since the purpose of the Name Quest is to consolidate all the Insights into a coherent Name, we should focus on getting Insights that fit well together, as well as modifying the Insights that don't quite fit in. As is the case with our Truth/Sincerity Insight.

Btw, at which point do we get our first Word, which is slated to be Communication. Is it right after Cyan breakthrough?

In any case, I don't see the worth on searching for new arts or finishing half-forgotten scrub arts just to fill Insight slots for it's own sake.
If we come across or are gifted an awesome art that mesh well with our build then, sure, we can pursue it.
But I feel like, at this point of Ling Qi's cultivation, the remaining Insights should mainly come from her Successors Arts.
This also links with the full G8 suite you mentioned. Sucessor Arts can be enhanced, both increased in potency and refining the effects, so I don't see the need to make a whole new set unless some of them fall too far back.

In any case, most of our future efforts should be focused on making an mastering those Successors Arts, crafting them into a coherent, synergetic suite.
We'll need arts to fulfill different roles: Cultivation (SSC+), Attack (FFS), Perception (ToN), Armor/Defense (SNR+TFR+), Movement (LFWT+), Construct (BKSD+), Formations (WHR) and any other I'm forgetting.
With those 7 plus the eight we already have, that makes 15 Insights.
So I'm not convinced we need to go out of our way to fill the remaining two, since we can also get a couple from the original arts.


We get the first Name during the Name Quest in G7.
Everything we add to our domain until that point can contribute to that Name and then it locks forever. Everything in terms of concepts and insights we add afterwards can only contribute to the second word, later in the 5th realm. Insights are also supposed to strengthen the Domain.
That is why I think the completionist approach before that is necessary to give us the best foundation for making the most refined Name we can get. And yeah, Id prefer if that comes from successors instead of new arts.

Argent Genesis had no insight vote back when we completed it, which is why I didn't count SSC towards arts that can give us insights.

The reason for the full suite in G8 is because 1) we currently always have arts that are lagging way behind in terms of potency, 2) completing lots of arts beforehand would give us an opportunity and 3) completing the name quest hopefully allows us to include it in our arts afterward.

I would agree that the remaining two slots in G8 are optional
 
We get the first Name during the Name Quest in G7.
Everything we add to our domain until that point can contribute to that Name and then it locks forever. Everything in terms of concepts and insights we add afterwards can only contribute to the second word, later in the 5th realm. Insights are also supposed to strengthen the Domain.
That is why I think the completionist approach before that is necessary to give us the best foundation for making the most refined Name we can get. And yeah, Id prefer if that comes from successors instead of new arts.

Argent Genesis had no insight vote back when we completed it, which is why I didn't count SSC towards arts that can give us insights.

The reason for the full suite in G8 is because 1) we currently always have arts that are lagging way behind in terms of potency, 2) completing lots of arts beforehand would give us an opportunity and 3) completing the name quest hopefully allows us to include it in our arts afterward.

I would agree that the remaining two slots in G8 are optional

Name and Words are different though?
For example, Suzhen's Name is "White Blade Devil" or something similar and one of her words is "Prosperity".
The Name Quest will give Ling Qi a Name, duh, but I think she doesn't get her first Word until Cyan?

Regarding the number of Insights, sometime less is more. If the Insights don't perfectly meld with each other we would end up with an inestable amalgam instead of a stronger foundation. Adding possible fault-lines and points of conflict giving birth to HeartDemons.

Making a whole new suite of arts at G8 seems just too time consuming. And also tedious narratively. I don't think it would be really enjoyable to go through all the proccess to make FFS+, which would just be FSS++.
It would be exactly the same again, except Ling Qi would have already stablished her philosophies about Winter, Endings and so on; so what would she even do then?

We can get FFS to G8-ish by doing all the art's projects (not just soft-capping it for G6), improving the Winter Heart trait and doing the Soul of Ice quest.
I expect the same to be mostly true for the rest of the Successor we'll make.
 
I think there's considerable art bloat. We already have too many arts to give them all narrative weight; I only care about 3/4 personally. Farming arts for insights, whilst numerically optimal, feels janky. They should be these big philosophical statements that tie in to LQ's Way, are deeply woven into the story and have a distinct function like ToN, FFS, LFWT. We're already past the point where we pick up arts to get insights so doing that at G7/8 would feel like a step backwards.
 
Name and Words are different though?
For example, Suzhen's Name is "White Blade Devil" or something similar and one of her words is "Prosperity".
The Name Quest will give Ling Qi a Name, duh, but I think she doesn't get her first Word until Cyan?

Regarding the number of Insights, sometime less is more. If the Insights don't perfectly meld with each other we would end up with an inestable amalgam instead of a stronger foundation. Adding possible fault-lines and points of conflict giving birth to HeartDemons.

Making a whole new suite of arts at G8 seems just too time consuming. And also tedious narratively. I don't think it would be really enjoyable to go through all the proccess to make FFS+, which would just be FSS++.
It would be exactly the same again, except Ling Qi would have already stablished her philosophies about Winter, Endings and so on; so what would she even do then?

We can get FFS to G8-ish by doing all the art's projects (not just soft-capping it for G6), improving the Winter Heart trait and doing the Soul of Ice quest.
I expect the same to be mostly true for the rest of the Successor we'll make.

I should have been more precise with Name and Word.

the exact wog is:

You will not be able to break through with a damaged concept. It would need to be either fixed or excised. And yes, the name Quest will distill all of your concepts into something cohesive and 'lock' them into the word you've chosen. Once broken through you will be able to begin building your second word in the following realms with what is left though.

During the patreon ask-the-author-something sessions I also asked for the realms for all 4 words.

1st word is 3rd realm
2nd word is 5th realm
3rd word is 6th realm
4th word is 8th realm


We need to master the arts anyways for the insights and the whole system always requires re-building arts again and again anyway. The only real difference consolidating in G8 instead of starting in G7 is that all G8 art creation can get influenced by the Name/Word we pick
 
There's a tradeoff I think, with the more stuff you've got the harder it is to keep it coherent.
 
Also less flexibility I imagine.

It's easier to pick and choose your word if you have eight or nine insights instead of a full thirteen.
 
We need to master the arts anyways for the insights and the whole system always requires re-building arts again and again anyway. The only real difference consolidating in G8 instead of starting in G7 is that all G8 art creation can get influenced by the Name/Word we pick

Still don't see the need to re-Successor several of our Successors Arts at G8. In fact, it seems like the worst possible time to do so.

Let's see the broad strokes of what we need to do on our cultivation.

We are going to master our pending arts and get Insights from them, though maybe not from all of them. I include SSC because, while Argent Genesis was purely technical, SSC does have lessons to impart. We'll likely choose an Insight about what it means to be a Songseeker for Ling Qi.
Then we'll craft several Successor Arts, the ones I mentioned in my previous post, and master them; gaining even more Insights. We'll also pick up another Advanced Insight from a tribulation along the way.

At G7 the only important requirement is to complete the Name Quest (we have a full stage of advantage on Concepts, we are obviously going to have 60 or almost so by then). With the Insights of the original Arts and their Successors, we'll likely have around 15 Insights out of 17 slots.
So it's a debate of how much we are willing to delay getting to G8, and subsequently Cyan, in order to have a completly filled Name instead of an almost filled one. I have no idea about Name choosing mechanics or consequences, so I can't argue any one way.

But once we have reached G8, there isn't simply anything* else to do but work towards breakingthrough to Cyan. The only thing I can think of is filling the new two Insight slots, but I'm not sure if that brings any benefit before breakthrough as the Name has already been granted and so they can't be part of it anyway. If there is no mechanical difference, short or long term, I certainly wouldn't delay breakthrough to fill them. If we fill them up naturally? Sure, that's great. If not, we can fill them with the Arts we craft at Cyan.
*There is helping Suyin make the breakthrough drug, but that's a sidequest, not cultivation.

It's also pretty cyclical. The Name comes from the Insights which comes from mastered Successors Arts. So we don't need to make Successors Arts v2 based on the Name we get, because the first Successors Arts are already part of the Name.
You also speaks of some Successors Arts falling behing on potency once we are at G8, which is true enough. But that's also why it's a terrible idea to re-successor our arts then. Because they are going to become obsolete again as soon as we breakthrough to Cyan.
Once we achieve the 4th realm, we'll have stablished our Law and gained access to Shen. Shen is a completely different dimension from Qi. Any Art that doesn't employ Shen is going to rapidly fall behind once Shen starts consistently getting used in fights.
So once we are Cyan we'll have to reforge all of our arts to tap into our Law and employ Shen. Which is why making a full coherent suite at G8 is a complete waste of time.
That's the first task of a newly minted Cyan cultivator.
 
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Adhoc vote count started by Karthak Urzak on Oct 9, 2023 at 8:53 AM, finished with 147 posts and 77 votes.
 
Hmm, we'll have Both the Emerald Seas nobility and White Sky confederation at 9 after this.
...Wait, if I understand how the favour rolls work correctly, doesn't this mean that with omake points it's impossible for us to lose a favourability loss roll for either of those factions?
 
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