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Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

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Winged One said:
There's a difference between hurting someone out of emotional weakness (or because you think it's for their own good, though that's far less common than abusers like to claim) and outright sending your so-called loved ones to die. And I am exceedingly skeptical of any claim that a cultivator of Sun Shao's level is weak in any way.
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Those examples aren't actually mostly either of those things, though. Like, only the second example fell into either category there. A lot of people hurting those they care for is just prioritizing something else over the person they care about, either themself, another person, or a cause, and doing that doesn't always mean they don't care. It can, certainly, but it doesn't always.

Like, someone leaving their lover to go do Doctors Without Borders is not being emotionally weak, they are prioritizing their cause over their lover. Someone taking care of their child who is sick rather than their friend who's going through a bad breakup is prioritizing their kid over their friend. Someone who is prioritizing following their own dreams over the job their parents got them knowing it will break their parents hearts is prioritizing their own needs over those of their parents.

And all of those are perfectly normal, potentially healthy, decisions (they can also be unhealthy, because context is everything). And all are choosing to hurt a person they care about to achieve something. Sun Shao takes that tendency too far...inhumanly too far, but it's a normal part of the human condition to do it to some degree.
 
DeadmanwalkingXI said:
Those examples aren't actually mostly either of those things, though. Like, only the second example fell into either category there. A lot of people hurting those they care for is just prioritizing something else over the person they care about, either themself, another person, or a cause, and doing that doesn't always mean they don't care. It can, certainly, but it doesn't always.

Like, someone leaving their lover to go do Doctors Without Borders is not being emotionally weak, they are prioritizing their cause over their lover. Someone taking care of their child who is sick rather than their friend who's going through a bad breakup is prioritizing their kid over their friend. Someone who is prioritizing following their own dreams over the job their parents got them knowing it will break their parents hearts is prioritizing their own needs over those of their parents.

And all of those are perfectly normal, potentially healthy, decisions (they can also be unhealthy, because context is everything). And all are choosing to hurt a person they care about to achieve something. Sun Shao takes that tendency too far...inhumanly too far, but it's a normal part of the human condition to do it to some degree.
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Yes, one of the many tragedies of humanity is that we think in hierarchies like this. But if someone is so far down in your priorities that you'll outright murder them, is what you feel for them really caring?
 
Winged One said:
Yes, one of the many tragedies of humanity is that we think in hierarchies like this. But if someone is so far down in your priorities that you'll outright murder them, is what you feel for them really caring?
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I mean, what's the alternative? If you were forced to kill a friend of yours to save your children, does that mean you don't care about them? Sun Shao's priorities and what he thinks is worth a life he cares for are done fucked, but that doesn't mean he doesn't care. He's inhuman and a monster and will sacrifice even those he cares for in the right cause, but that's very different from not caring.
 
Tylonius said:
Or we just don't yet know their dark side.
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Didn't the equivalent of high nobles of that nation murder Jaromilla's father and besmirch his memory because they didn't approve of him marrying Jaromilla's mother? And also disown said mother for the same reason? I mean, we do not know how common such a thing is, but it did happen and from the way Jaromilla talked about it, it wasn't considered particularly decadently corrupt, at least not in a rare way.
 
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storryeater said:
Didn't the equivalent of high nobles of that nation murder Jaromilla's father and besmirch his memory because they didn't approve of him marrying Jaromilla's mother? And also disown said mother for the same reason? I mean, we do not know how common such a thing is, but it did happen and from the way Jaromilla talked about it, it wasn't considered particularly decadently corrupt, at least not in a rare way.
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They disowned her mother (which was indeed considered acceptable), but from what Jaromilla said, her father actually was guilty of the crimes he was accused of, no framing involved.
 
yrsillar said:
"But, in a winter scant years later, sorrow came. As he had done often, the man, now a respected priest of the sun took up the duty to guide a caravan through the fall snows and deepening twilight, forming the veins of support between the settlements of the north. He did not return. Tales came of a ragged survivor, speaking of a sun priest who had given in the whispers of the void and ended them all, before being slain himself."

"The demons of Outer Night are weak in the north, so far from the gates," Jaromila explained tightly. "And the woman knew the man to not be of weak and avaricious temperament. He would not fall so she thought. Other's humored her, thinking it grief, until the day she went unto the survivors traveling south to hear their story. The woman had grown strong by then, and mighty in the Emissaries arts."

"There had been no Void demon," Jaromila said tightly. "And though the oaths upon the soldiers were strong, and left her with no proof. She knew well where to turn her eyes."
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No, he was definitely framed
 
DeadmanwalkingXI said:
They disowned her mother (which was indeed considered acceptable), but from what Jaromilla said, her father actually was guilty of the crimes he was accused of, no framing involved.
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Nope.

yrsillar said:
Here, at last, Jaromila paused, closing her eyes. "But, in a winter scant years later, sorrow came. As he had done often, the man, now a respected priest of the sun took up the duty to guide a caravan through the fall snows and deepening twilight, forming the veins of support between the settlements of the north. He did not return. Tales came of a ragged survivor, speaking of a sun priest who had given in the whispers of the void and ended them all, before being slain himself."

"The demons of Outer Night are weak in the north, so far from the gates," Jaromila explained tightly. "And the woman knew the man to not be of weak and avaricious temperament. He would not fall so she thought. Other's humored her, thinking it grief, until the day she went unto the survivors traveling south to hear their story. The woman had grown strong by then, and mighty in the Emissaries arts."

"There had been no Void demon," Jaromila said tightly. "And though the oaths upon the soldiers were strong, and left her with no proof. She knew well where to turn her eyes."

That was… Ling Qi couldn't call it unthinkable, to kill so many of your own people for such a petty reason. She knew well enough the vicious games that could be played among the nobility of the Empire. She had even seen the scars of it in many of her friends.
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(bolding of a part mine)

Also, add callously killing tons of bystanders to the list, forgot that was part of the framing job.

Edit: Ling Qi'd
 
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"Grandpa?"
He blinked, looked down to Liling and crouched down, resting a hand on her head. Her hair was just as bright and red as his had been, all those centuries ago. "I'm sorry little one. I was remembering."
She nodded, still sniffling. And he gathered her into an embrace.
He had promised himself to break the world for his family if need be. When the child in his arms finally broke into sobs, he remembered why he did not want to. Why it was his last plan.
Poor child. Her life would only grow harder. Her mother was a soft and petty thing of the court, and would be gone in a fortnight with the marriage broken. Only she could bear their future now. She would need to grow strong indeed. Stronger than he. Stronger than Her.
Such a cruel thing to lay on a child.

If Shao didn't care, he wouldn't have waited until his back was against the wall to marry the Goddess and make Liling spirit-blooded.
 
...alright. He does care. He thinks this is for her own good (and also the rest of the family's). And I still want to see the blade of Truth stab him in the heart with the fact that he's betrayed everyone in his family but the fucking Jungle who commanded their first murderers to kill(I'm aware that she was nonspecific about who to kill as she always is. But he's taken revenge on everyone else who bears any blame).
 
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In truth, we're applying our sense of morality to a death world of cultivation where higher realm cultivators' senses are often warped. The farther you go, the more black and white the world is. Sun Shao's decisions backed him into a corner and now his people and family pay the price.
Many perpetrators are victims as well, we can pity him and be disgusted by his actions in equal measure.
 
Lena27 said:
In truth, we're applying our sense of morality to a death world of cultivation where higher realm cultivators' senses are often warped. The farther you go, the more black and white the world is. Sun Shao's decisions backed him into a corner and now his people and family pay the price.
Many perpetrators are victims as well, we can pity him and be disgusted by his actions in equal measure.
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We can. But it's been a while since I did.
 
Sun Shao cares, possibly far more than Shenhua does, or even more than Suzhen does.
But that caring is neither kind nor gentle.
It is the caring of a patriarch who is absolutely certain they know better than their children, and anything that leaves them alive and not permanently crippled* is worth it.


* For a some very specific definitions of crippled and permanent
 
One could argue that Shenhua might be more of a monster than Sun Shao. She doesn't have the capacity for remorse because of her Way, she can only look forward. She doesn't feel sorry for what she did to CRX, it's not in her.
At least Sun Shao feels sorry for what he did to Liling. He knows it was wrong in so many ways.

On the other hand, you can argue that Shenhua isn't nearly as bad as Sun Shao. He clearly felt beyond awful doing what he did to Sun Liling but that didn't stop him from letting a diety violate her body and soul, did it? He has the capacity to love his family in a way Shenhua can't, but he betrayed Liling in the worst way possible anyway.

Interesting to think about.
 
In some ways Shenhua definitely is more monstrous than Sun Shao.
But, the way Shenhua is monstrous, is what makes me hate her less.
Sun Shao reads to me as human, and not a very nice human at that, while Shenhua is more a force of nature in a human skinsuit.
Also, Shenhua, in all her inhuman monstrousness, knows she is a problem and needs to go, while Sun Shao considers himself a solution.
 
Look the problem with the shaos approach was that he didn't got permission from liling to do the adoption not the adoption itself. We may have chosen cai-bai road but that doesn't mean bai are the assholes they always was and shao's concernsare invalid. I mean meizhen is a cinnamon bun in bai clan but even she would rip liling into pieces without a moment's thought if sun shao suddenly blow up tomorrow and liling was left without protection . Suizhen is the acknowledged "progressive" of the bai but if someone asked her what her opinion of fuxi basically telling shao to replace his wife with the younger and better model after a bai sacrificed them to red garden she wouldn't condemn the fuxi at all.
 
The problem with Shao is that he's enshrined Sacrifice in his Way and taken it all the way to the top.

Since his days as the Bai's general, his strategy was always to spend lives and sacrifice more men to win, as long as the enemy bleeds more/as long as he gains an advantage.

His march into the Jungle reinforced this worldview.

Now he's done the same to Liling, Sacrifice her for the good of the family. Sure, she got a power up, but he did it to Liling specifically because anyone else would die if he sacrificed them like that (but Liling stronk so she only got trauma).

Now, I'm not saying Sacrifice is wrong as a concept. It fuels the Crone, after all. But Shao's is sacrifice forced on both jis family and enemies (while the Crone uses Sacrifice freely given) , and, since he's enshrined it as one his Words, he sees Sacrifice as the method to everything.
 
I think you under estimate how big of an issue Sunflower Goddess is.
Yes, adoption without consent was bad, but that is not the only problem here.
If we had gone Liling route, we almost certainly would be trying to figure out how to get rid of Sun Shao instead of Cai Shenhua.
Because Shao is going to rip the empire apart (provided he does not end up leaving empire entirely), and kill millions of innocents in the process.
 
Don't forget the fact that Sun Lilling is... bleeding away, spiritually, while there is still energy and most likely something else pouring in from the jungle.
yrsillar said:
The scent of blood was overwhelming. Ji Rong was not lying about the drums, the drums beating just behind the veil. But… he was wrong. It was not drums. It was a heartbeat. A vast, vast heartbeat, echoing from half a continent away. A heartbeat pounding through a conduit of blood, flowing into Liling.

It was a mighty cultivation art indeed, tapping into such a deep well of power, from so far away.
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yrsillar said:
And though the scars had gone from Liling's face, Ling Qi could feel in the dense mist of blood that filled the dream here, the presence of crusted over scabs, never healed wounds, that felt… as if they had been split recently.

The blood was not all pouring in. Sun Liling was bleeding.
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So, who had "The Sunflower Goddess breaks her quarantine" on the apocalypse bingo? :V
 
I think thr Sunflower Goddess is an issue now that Liling can summon her and expand her domain outside of her domain, but I don't think tye Sunflower Goddess herself is an issue.

She's been around for millenia, and has continuously been pushed back
 
Issue as in "will destroy the world" no, she is not.
Issue as in "empire will shit bricks and rip itself apart before accepting her" lot more likely.
The problem with Sunflower Goddess are mostly political (apart from the whole "hates the empire and wants to destroy it"), Empire does not like her, Bai especially do not like her, granny dragon definitely does not like her, and Sun Shao deciding to marry her is going to throw so many wrenches into the gears that it is almost hilarious.
 
Oliver_Twister said:
Now he's done the same to Liling, Sacrifice her for the good of the family. Sure, she got a power up, but he did it to Liling specifically because anyone else would die if he sacrificed them like that (but Liling stronk so she only got trauma).
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None of that's true though. He wasn't sacrificing her at all - indeed if anything he was sacrificing himself. Her adoption was a boon he had to fight for. He did it for her.
 
Valmond said:
Also, Shenhua, in all her inhuman monstrousness, knows she is a problem and needs to go, while Sun Shao considers himself a solution.
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I think the core of the issue and why Shensha is such an interesting cultivator. She knows she, as shaped by her experiences climbing up, is horribly fucked up and not great for her country. She also knows that
Oliver_Twister said:
I think thr Sunflower Goddess is an issue now that Liling can summon her and expand her domain outside of her domain, but I don't think tye Sunflower Goddess herself is an issue.

She's been around for millenia, and has continuously been pushed back
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on that regard I think the most interesting is the White sky way of driving back the jungle(or well their spirits way). it seems to be quite effectively keeping him at bay. which makes sense- Jungle doesn't strive in the cold. also conceptually. sunflower is evolution and advancement through sacrifice and death and survival of the strongest. cold however stifles such Darwinistic concepts by basically saying- all of this is mine. forever, all te energy, with no change. of course there are variations(Ling Qi is very different to that and so are the WS spirits) but it is the core concept, making it useful against the sunflower
 
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