Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Now, the Zheng are LIKELY to throw in along with Bai, but the only things they can hit are Jin or Mu, the Bai being unlikely to welcome even allied Zheng on their turf.

I could see Cai being a lot more open to having Zheng on her turf however, at which point they have an option of potentially two different brands of barbarian and the Sun to punch, which sounds like it could be very attractive to the Zheng.

This would no doubt piss off the Sun and put the Cai in de facto war with them, but with all the very enthusiastic monkey men on their borders that doesn't seem as dangerous all of a sudden. And the Bai get help while maintaining their pride.
 
I could see Cai being a lot more open to having Zheng on her turf however, at which point they have an option of potentially two different brands of barbarian and the Sun to punch, which sounds like it could be very attractive to the Zheng.

This would no doubt piss off the Sun and put the Cai in de facto war with them, but with all the very enthusiastic monkey men on their borders that doesn't seem as dangerous all of a sudden. And the Bai get help while maintaining their pride.
Zheng armed forces on ES lands is going to be wildly unpopular I suspect.
 
Zheng armed forces on ES lands is going to be wildly unpopular I suspect.
Zheng, being Zheng, would probably lean more towards individual hero units instead of massed armies.
But if ES ends up at war with the death jungle, what armies Zheng have would probably not be that unpopular if they spend most of their time punching at angry plants.
 
Zheng armed forces on ES lands is going to be wildly unpopular I suspect.

Shenhua: "All I see are positives!"

Okay maybe a bit extreme, but between potential three fronts of war, Emerald Seas trauma and Shenhua being Shenhua I can absolutely see it.

Said civil war trauma could also push non-interference… ES has too many moving pieces and Shenhua's enough of a wild card I could see it go either way.
 
I think the empress is going to be inclined personally to support the reformist efforts in the bai and the duchess in the emerald sea.

But she's also got to know that the throne benefits from having the provinces exhaust their strength.

So I suspect she's going to be saying sweet nothings to both sides and trying to keep any conflict away from the celestial peaks.
 
I think the empress is going to be inclined personally to support the reformist efforts in the bai and the duchess in the emerald sea.

But she's also got to know that the throne benefits from having the provinces exhaust their strength.

So I suspect she's going to be saying sweet nothings to both sides and trying to keep any conflict away from the celestial peaks.

I'm not sure if she cares about 'the throne' per se. Evidence suggests she cares about the wellbeing of her people, but whether that means she cares about the power of the throne in and of itself is a different question.

Remember, she just hit White...normal mortal concerns like retaining her own authority are no longer really her thing unless they are part of her Cultivation very directly. She is driven by her Principle and Words alone, and we don't know what those are. They might prize centralized authority...or not. We have no idea, and assuming she'll behave in a way that is in her own best interests or those of the Imperial Throne at the expense of the people of the Empire may or may not be correct.
 
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I'm not sure if she cares about 'the throne' per se. Evidence suggests she cares about the wellbeing of her people, but whether that means she cares about the power of the throne in and of itself is a different question.

Remember, she just hit White...normal mortal concerns like retaining her own authority are no longer really her thing unless they are part of her Cultivation very directly. She is driven by her Principle and Words alone, and we don't know what those are. They might prize centralized authority...or not. We have no idea, and assuming she'll behave in a way that is in her own best interests or those of the Imperial Throne at the expense of the people of the Empire may or may not be correct.

Sun Shao's reticence to marry the Sunflower Goddess suggests that a White can continue to support positions they no longer can actually understand for a significant amount of time. Absent the Goddess's pushing Sun Shao would probably have retained his original position for even longer.

This is less helpful when it comes to being a loving parent as "I intellectually know that I used to care about you" is not really a shining example of good parenting but it would probably work well for "I have an obligation to not squander the power of the imperial throne". If her cultivation truly doesn't support the latter she'd be able to be persuaded away from that stance, however.
 
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Sun Shao's reticence to marry the Sunflower Goddess suggests that a White can continue to support positions they no longer can actually understand for a significant amount of time. Absent the Goddess's pushing Sun Shao would probably have retained his original position for even longer.

This is less helpful when it comes to being a loving parent as "I intellectually know that I used to care about you" is not really a shining example of good parenting but it would probably work well for "I have an obligation to not squander the power of the imperial throne". If her cultivation truly doesn't support the latter she'd be able to be persuaded away from that stance, however.

I mean, sure, but Glau was talking about her basically encouraging a civil war with massive death tolls to preserve the Throne's power. I'm pretty sure that, based on what we know of her, unless centralized authority is central to her Way, allowing or encouraging mass casualty events among her citizens is probably directly opposed to it. And a White cultivator definitely can't go against their Way.

Like, if her Way is about authority, it could happen, but her father, as another example, could not have done that. Can she? We don't know, but we can't assume realpolitik motives from White cultivators.
 
I mean, sure, but Glau was talking about her basically encouraging a civil war with massive death tolls to preserve the Throne's power.

There's a difference between encouraging and not attempting to prevent that might seem like splitting hairs, but is critical to legitimacy afterwards.

If the dukes go to war for their own reasons and under their own rights, it becomes easier to remove those rights after they are weakened. So the throne benefits from appearing not to play favorites but from stepping in to preserve the common people from their superior's folly once it gets bad. (ie, once the imperial throne is confident it can defeat all involved.)

She can't stop the war that is coming, I don't think. Rather than squandering authority trying, like with the execution of Meihzin's Mom, An is better off giving them enough room to make themselves the villains.
 
She can't stop the war that is coming, I don't think.
I'd agree.

I don't think the legitimacy hit from being unable to stop the war is negligible, but that's sunk costs at this point - the Empress is taking that hit regardless.

So the question is how much legitimacy she's going to be able to reclaim in the aftermath, and for that she needs to win, yeah.
 
There's a difference between encouraging and not attempting to prevent that might seem like splitting hairs, but is critical to legitimacy afterwards.

A relevant distinction politically, but not to most Ways involving protecting one's citizens.

If the dukes go to war for their own reasons and under their own rights, it becomes easier to remove those rights after they are weakened. So the throne benefits from appearing not to play favorites but from stepping in to preserve the common people from their superior's folly once it gets bad. (ie, once the imperial throne is confident it can defeat all involved.)

She can't stop the war that is coming, I don't think. Rather than squandering authority trying, like with the execution of Meihzin's Mom, An is better off giving them enough room to make themselves the villains.

Again, this is a realpolitik justification for the behavior, and I can see many real world leaders doing exactly this. But I think it's fundamentally a mistake to think of White Realm Cultivators in this manner. As a White, An is largely not a person any more, she is a Principle made manifest upon the world. She is capable of tactics like this, but only in ways that align with her Principle, and we don't know her Principle.

Could she do this? Sure. Will she? That depends on her Principle, not on whether it's politically correct or convenient for the Throne.

Like, I'm not saying she can't do this, I'm saying that you're assuming her motives in a way that is very possibly really incorrect given how White Realm cultivators work.
 
Most? That's an interesting claim.

Why would you think that most rulers' ways have anything to do with protection, and why do you think An has such?

I don't think that about most rulers, I think it might be true of the Empress very specifically. As for why, literally all her actions we've heard about indicate her prioritizing the wellbeing of her citizens as her primary goal. Now, that could be in a way where their wellbeing is important only inasmuch as it is a reflection of the Empire's wellbeing as a whole or something else that prizes authority over their lives, but it could also be something where their wellbeing is the end goal. We don't know.

Fundamentally, what I'm arguing here is that we don't know her Principle and thus can't predict her actions, and that assuming they will be based on human political logic is a bad mistake. Her Way could be entirely rulership based, but her father's certainly wasn't, nor are those of any other ruler we've seen, so I doubt it, and if it is literally anything else then she has higher priorities than what is politically best for the Throne. Those priorities might agree with conventional political logic...or they might not.

To put it another way, I'm not saying that she will 100% not make the choices you suggest, I'm saying that assuming she will because of political logic is fundamentally thinking about how White Realm cultivators make decisions in the wrong way.
 
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I don't think that about most rulers, I think it might be true of the Empress very specifically. As for why, literally all her actions we've heard about indicate her prioritizing the wellbeing of her citizens as her primary goal. Now, that could be in a way where their wellbeing is important only inasmuch as it is a reflection of the Empire's wellbeing as a whole or something else that prizes authority over their lives, but it could also be something where their wellbeing is the end goal. We don't know.

Fundamentally, what I'm arguing here is that we don't know her Principle and thus can't predict her actions, and that assuming they will be based on human political logic is a bad mistake. Her Way could be entirely rulership based, but her father's certainly wasn't, nor are those of any other ruler we've seen, so I doubt it, and if it is literally anything else then she has higher priorities than what is politically best for the Throne. Those priorities might agree with conventional political logic...or they might not.

To put it another way, I'm not saying that she will 100% not make the choices you suggest, I'm saying that assuming she will because of political logic is fundamentally thinking about how White Realm cultivators make decisions in the wrong way.


You speak words, and they are the truth. But I think the lower realm cultivators might modulate the actions of the White somewhat. Her family and advisors might be able to present a way of acting that is both useful in terms of realpolitik and aligns with her Way. In fact, I'd strongly suspect that a healthy process of choosing the next Emperor/Empress to promote to White involves seeing how compatible their Way is with rulership. Most likely, the previous Emperor made suitable pre-cautions to ensure his successor wouldn't be some murder hobo or zealot. Though of course his options may have been limited after purging the Peaks, and reducing the talent pool to select from. But the Peaks have access to White cultiation stones, so they should have a much greater ability to select someone to throw resources at and get a White.
 
Turn 16: Arc 5-5
"Go, I'm sure you have much business waiting," Luo Jie dismissed. He looked at her only briefly, focusing on Gan Guangli.

There might be more for her to say to this man before the summit, but for now, she had other matters to attend too. Ling Qi bowed once more, and took her leave, following a Luo attendant back out of the partially complete compound, past the lounging hounds the artificially grown treeline.

There, Ling Qi remained on the path, not flying since her destination wasn't too far. She returned to the center of Imperial construction, the housing being built onto the ruins of the Hui bunker. There, she passed the workers, and spoke to the attendant at the steps which lead down into the ruin proper, gaining entry.

It was very different than she had saw it last. The shape and structure was there, but the stone had been rendered meticulously clean, and the stone sanded or smoothed to remove all signs of its previous owners. She felt the auras of soldiers now bunked in the empty barracks, saw the work of formations carvers, adjusting, erasing, and manipulating the arrays already in place to perform the new functions that would be needed. Further down where the spiders had once laired, there were no longer any corpses, not even the empty shell of the greatest of the spiders, dead before they had arrived.

Ling Qi had no doubt that it had been harvested for anything which still retained even a dreg of power. At the bottom though, she found her destination, the once sealed room of Hui Peng, the mad corpse Immortal she and Xia Lin had slain. And there in that emptied room, whose walls were still covered in scribbles and graffiti she found the man she was meeting with. Cao Chun stood facing away from her, resting his weight on the cane planted on the ground in front of her. He seemed to be examining the interior of the small room.

There was another person as well. A young man she had glimpsed once at the crafting tournament. Jin Tae, she thought. Cao Chun had mentioned that he was taking him on as an apprentice. It showed in his black robes and the featureless white mask he wore on the side of his head, where it could be easily slid into place over his face.

"Vileness clings here despite everything," Cao Chun said as she approached. "Those who refuse to accept the impermanence of men are among the most vile and destructive foes. You did well in destroying this infection, Baroness."

"I cannot claim the entire credit," Ling Qi said modestly, stopping and clasping her hands in a respectful gesture she bowed at a moderate angle.

"The young Xia. Also promising," Cao Chun said. He turned to face her, his cane tapping upon the ground. "I am satisfied with the security here. Though these barbarians of yours are being allowed to observe from the shadows. They are watched."

"It is not easy, according to my seniors. These crow men are quite skilled," Jin Tae said cheerfully. Hearing him speak for the first time, his voice was smooth and clear, with a tint of sharp accent.

Cao Chun glanced at him, and the young man tilted his head forward, chastised.

"I have spoken to one of these," Ling Qi said. "I believe I understand their trepidation. The General is intimidating."

Cao Chun considered this. "I have not detected any attempt to penetrate any secure location, this is why I only offer you warning."

Ling Qi nodded, acknowledging. "On that matter, I intend to speak with them later today, and gather some preliminary information. To that end I intend to ask that our work crews and perhaps our guard detail to speak with theirs, so that neither of our preparations cause accident or misfortune."

He gave her an assessing look. "I will review the information shared. We cannot compromise our defenses."

"I understand, Sir Cao," Ling Qi said. "I think it is better for our security if neither the barbarians or ourselves surprise each other. And I am confident in the General."

She had no doubt about that woman's killing power, whereas the greater cultivator brought by the White Sky did not feel so fatal.

"There is some sense in that, I think sir," Jin Tae offered. "We should only share information equivalent to what we are given of course."

Cao Chun furrowed his brows. "I will think on this. Consider information on geomantic plans for the work crews approved. I have observed that these barbarians understand them already, if with less refinement than our own experts."

"Thank you sir," Ling Qi said, bowing again. While the Ministry of Integrity might not technically have legal authority over such changes without sending back to the Empress for a decree, openly flouting their authority would just lead to bad blood, or worse, such a decree actually being made. "With that out of the way, may I ask why you requested this meeting?"

He gave a small nod, rapping his cane once on the ground. "As my impetuous student implied there are other agents providing less obvious security. I must oversee and coordinate, as well as provide my own expertise. This limits my time."

"You wish for another avenue of communications than directly seeking you out?" Ling Qi considered.
"For large matters, You should still seek me, Baroness," he said crisply. "But for small matters, yes. Apprentice Jin."

There was a certain emphasis on 'apprentice' reminding the young man of his position, regardless of family?

"Yes, sir?" Jin Tae said, straightening up.

"You will be my direct liaison with the Cai Heiress and negotiating team. Baroness, as the liaison of the Cai, I will leave him in your care," Cao Chun said. "Familiarize yourselves. I must continue to examine the formation array core. I have already detected seven information hazards against long term subversion, atop those already found by the work teams. I suspect there will be more, given the makers."

Ling Qi glanced at the younger man and bowed. "Sir Cao. Good fortune in your seeking."

Jin Tae offered his own bows, a deep one to his master, and a minimal one to her as he stepped out. "Baroness Ling, I hope that we can speak fruitfully."

"I as well," Ling Qi said politely, dipping her head in his direction as they left the old agent to his work, crossing back across the cavern floor to the stairway that had been set up. "May I ask for your understanding of this summit, in your own words?"

She didn't know enough about him. If most of her information toward Cao Chun was going to filtered toward him, that couldn't stand. The Jin were the dukes of the Alabaster Seas. They had minimal relations with the Emerald Seas. She knew they were mercantile, somewhat like the Bao, but much more heavily invested in shipbuilding and shipping. They controlled all ports on the mainland Empire, save for a single city in the Thousand Lakes.

"I see," he said. He really was very handsome. Though his voice was warm, his manner was sterner and more serious than Meng Dan's. "This operation seeks to defuse an additional front of the war against the tribes of these mountains. Who have fallen roughly into three 'factions' or confederations. Your target is aligned with a foreign group much further south, in the plains of ice beyond the mountains. These foreigners control their barbarians to such a degree that you are negotiating directly with them."

Ling Qi considered him as she spoke, observing his face as they climbed the stairs. He laid out his points swiftly and with confidence. She also noted some of his choices of words. "I would word it differently. The White Sky Confederation and their Polar Nation appear invested in fully integrating the CLoud Tribes who have joined them. These tribes are mostly those furthest from the empire who reside in the harshest peaks."

"How ambitious of them," Jin Tae mused.

"Oh, you don't believe they are puffing themselves up?" Ling Qi prodded.

"Possible. I have at least heard credible reports of true civilizations beyond the Empire's shores though. So I would rather not assume. Regardless, I have studied the maps. These folk are too far distant to mount a credible military campaign against, should they stay in the southern foothills of the wall." he replied, looking her in the eye. They reached the top of the stairs, facing each other in the room there. "And it seems their most likely military option against us is unleashing their auxiliary tribes with support in the form of equipment and safe infrastructure."

Ling Qi hadn't quite considered it that way, but inferior talismans were generally a weakness of the Cloud Tribes, and their camps were considered their only real strategic vulnerabilities. "I'm glad that you are considering things in such a clearheaded way."

"It is an interesting little puzzle. It is enjoyable to turn over scenarios in the mind, isn't it?" he said. "Regardless. I do believe your approach is correct. There is no profit to be found in war with them at the present."

She nodded. That was probably the most helpful position she could hope for from the Ministry and the capital. If he were more supportive she would honestly be suspicious. Although perhaps that was a consideration of his? She liked to think no one was actively looking to sabotage things, but of all present the Jin did have the most conflicts with the Bai and the Xuan, the Cai's allies in the Empire.

"I think that War in the Wall will not be helpful anytime in our lifetimes," Ling Qi said. "Which is why I do this. The longer an association goes, the more sturdy it becomes, no?"

"I think that might be a little simplistic, but not outright wrong," Jin Tae replied, crossing his arms. In the end, kingdoms and Empire's compete with those next to them, and some must lose so that others can win. It is because they are too far and out of competition with the Empire that I have some confidence in this. Should the borders come closer, or transport formations development advance, this may change."

That was sincere, she thought. "Not outright wrong."

He chuckled. "But as you said. That is not the foreseeable future."

Ling Qi considered him. She would have to keep him 'in the know' on some level to satisfy Cao Chun and the ministry presence, but how did she want to handle that?

[ ] Take a close approach, allow him into the decision and planning loop of most of their actions. Keep him close, and maybe, just maybe outright convince him that you're right.

[ ] You can't be fully sure of Jin Tae's intentions, given his family and work. Keep communication professional and arms length. There is too much to risk here
 
We just don't have enough time to establish another close personal friendship, regardless of feasibility. You can't half-ass friendship.
 
To clarify,

1. We don't know much about him character or belief wise. I don't want to bring him in based on that. He's in the MoI, so there's that. Hoping we can maybe talk to Jiao about it more and their rules and all before we engage with him. Like, I'm not sure if he has it since he's an apprentice, but they MoI agents also bind death spirits that kill them if they break the rules, but we don't know what said rules are.

2. He's our imperial minder. He'll watch and report back to Cao Chun. They might disagree with what we do. Remember, sometimes, we have to frame things into something that'll be digestible to the imperial faction, like when we first talked to Cao Chun. I don't want him to convey our true intentions.

3. We're partnering with Xuan Shi to present a unified Cai-Bai-Xuan block. Being close to someone who's against both the Bai and the Xuan (and Xuan Shi) isn't something I want to do right now when the summit is close. We want a unified block.

4. Ultimately, if he continues to be our imperial minder past the first summit (because our project is going to be long-term), we can find out more about him. Just not right now.
 
Keep it professional imo
Tentatively, I'd say otherwise. Keeping the Ministries out wouldn't be any good, IMO. I imagine that right now, we've just been handed both a potential ally and, more importantly, a canary in the coal mine. Imagine it from Cao Chun's mind, as best we know of him. The heiress of the Cai and her attendants have seemingly gone all in on making some alliance with Ice-loving 'barbarians,' with many resources and political heft put down to make it so. We, as in Ling Qi, are well-known in certain circles to be a little controversial. Remember the play with Tsu the Diviner? That makes this effort both suspect to those with power and those without perspective beyond their own backyard. Keeping out everyone was kind of... impossible to avoid at first. Some effort was made to stop that, like with Ling Qi's efforts as a newborn spy mistress and Hanyi's songs, but that doesn't make that better for the greedy or obstinate types. They'd want more, to know about why exactly the Cai Heiress was so desperate to see this summit of all things happen.
Further still, the Cai heiress has made no bones about using her means to push hard for these diplomatic efforts. What should the Inspector do, such a dedicated man to the Empire? Send his apprentice in! If Jin Tae is stonewalled out of our schemes, that would keep the Ministries out of our decision-making process, implying a possibility of treachery. Not all that great of a thing to imply. So... let Jin Tae in, right from the start. Trust has to start somewhere, and though the potential for betrayal or sabotage is possible there's no real way to stop it without master-level Divinations, Crit Dice, or Sherlock Holmes' level of deduction. Paranoia might bite us in the ass, but if we can make an ally of Jin Tae? Then he's a pipeline to Cao Chun, to the Ministries, to the Conservatives and other hardcore detractors who want nothing to do with the Confederations. I'd bet all the money that Jin Tae was chosen to see how much oversight Ling Qi and everyone else is willing to accept, and it's a little suspicious that he's so amenable to our ideas about diplomacy. Keeping him beyond arm's length just means he can run away or betray us without hesitation or guilt.
 
The choice is a bit annoying because it'd be useful to have someone more sceptical involved in the planning, who's nonetheless on-board of the main. He would make a pretty good devil's advocate, same as Luo. It'd be a nice way of covering some of our blind spots. At the same time, I don't really care about convicting him we're right.
 
Tentatively, I'd say otherwise. Keeping the Ministries out wouldn't be any good, IMO. I imagine that right now, we've just been handed both a potential ally and, more importantly, a canary in the coal mine. Imagine it from Cao Chun's mind, as best we know of him. The heiress of the Cai and her attendants have seemingly gone all in on making some alliance with Ice-loving 'barbarians,' with many resources and political heft put down to make it so. We, as in Ling Qi, are well-known in certain circles to be a little controversial. Remember the play with Tsu the Diviner? That makes this effort both suspect to those with power and those without perspective beyond their own backyard. Keeping out everyone was kind of... impossible to avoid at first. Some effort was made to stop that, like with Ling Qi's efforts as a newborn spy mistress and Hanyi's songs, but that doesn't make that better for the greedy or obstinate types. They'd want more, to know about why exactly the Cai Heiress was so desperate to see this summit of all things happen.
Further still, the Cai heiress has made no bones about using her means to push hard for these diplomatic efforts. What should the Inspector do, such a dedicated man to the Empire? Send his apprentice in! If Jin Tae is stonewalled out of our schemes, that would keep the Ministries out of our decision-making process, implying a possibility of treachery. Not all that great of a thing to imply. So... let Jin Tae in, right from the start. Trust has to start somewhere, and though the potential for betrayal or sabotage is possible there's no real way to stop it without master-level Divinations, Crit Dice, or Sherlock Holmes' level of deduction. Paranoia might bite us in the ass, but if we can make an ally of Jin Tae? Then he's a pipeline to Cao Chun, to the Ministries, to the Conservatives and other hardcore detractors who want nothing to do with the Confederations. I'd bet all the money that Jin Tae was chosen to see how much oversight Ling Qi and everyone else is willing to accept, and it's a little suspicious that he's so amenable to our ideas about diplomacy. Keeping him beyond arm's length just means he can run away or betray us without hesitation or guilt.

If we're working with the ministries, then that's even more reason why this should be a professional relationship, like with the Ith-ai attack.

We're not stonewalling him. This isn't paranoia. We're keeping a professional relationship because we don't fully know him yet, and letting him into our personal circle for something this important can backfire spectacularly well.

I agree that we can't keep out everyone. At the same time, we can't be friends with everyone. We already have our friends and the people who have tagged along should be kept in a professional relationship for now because they're new unexpected variables that have come up really close to the deadline. That's ignoring how he's from a clan that's diametrically opposed to at least two of our current ducal allies.

And, well, Cai Renxiang, the heir to Cai Shenhua, has staked her reputation on this to meet her mother's demands. Most people would accept that since they know how much of a freak Shenhua is.

Also, I think it's a pretty big leap to say that he was chosen to say keeping him at arms length means he can betray us, when a professional, at arms length relationship invites less chance of betrayal than a close, personal one, where we share all our info and talk about our ideals that imperials really don't agree with. He's only been assigned because Cao "former MoI agent" Chun is too busy being paranoid about security.
 
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