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Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
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[x] Your eyes in the city itself are still woefully undeveloped, find your new 'friend' among the Court clans to have a conversation and perhaps receive a few more introductions. It can't hurt to build up an important contact more.
 
In fact it looks a lot like the lead in scenario might have been retaliation for his victory in court - to demonstrate that Fuxi made a mistake in appointing someone not White caste to lead.

Because Fuxi used Shao to faceslap his court for being indolent and they cannot directly protest against Fuxi, but Shao is not out of reach.

Makes it all the more tragic that Sun Shao killed Bai Fuxi.

Classic byzantine court woes - the court, secure in their nation's power, turns against itself as they fight for position within the nation, heedless of externalities.
 
veekie said:
Classic byzantine court woes - the court, secure in their nation's power, turns against itself as they fight for position within the nation, heedless of externalities.
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Literally Byzantine, like Belisaurius! If Sun Shao hadn't been "lucky" enough to woo the Red Goddess, he'd have gotten crushed by the Bai a long time ago, maybe with his whole clan.
 
Its compounded since:
-Bai Fuxi is a male leader
-He's upsetting caste boundaries by putting Red caste into a White caste job
-A Red caste male at that.
-Sun Shao was actually successful

At that point the choices from the court's PoV was either to accept that they're wrong, or prove that Fuxi is wrong and that neither men nor Reds should be in charge.

They succeeded.
Congratulations
 
Audacious said:
Well at this point his whole clan is himself and Liling so he damn well crushed it himself. Vengeance is a helluva drug.
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He made the Bai bleed for it though. Too costly and definitely not worth it as a stand alone thing, but those he deems as almighty flinched against his vengeance and shed flesh and broken fangs against his retaliation.

picklepikkl said:
Wait, was Sun Shao Red caste? I thought he was below the Bai caste system entirely?
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below the caste system maybe, because his blood diluted enough to no longer show Bai traits both physical and not?
 
JammingforHam said:
Unfortunately, there is an indication a Bai clan member of the White caste was responsible in the attack on the Sun family. More will be revealed in time.
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If that comes I will see then. Though it sounds out of place, the Sun pretty much utterly won the propaganda war until recently so if that had indeed happened it should be common knowledge, unless Shao never learned about it I suppose.
TimEd said:
He made the Bai bleed for it though. Too costly and definitely not worth it as a stand alone thing, but those he deems as almighty flinched against his vengeance and shed flesh and broken fangs against his retaliation.
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And? His motto isn't 'vengeance', it is 'everything for family' and he had to watch most of it die, then the rest of it be heading for death until he inflicted an horrible fate on his closest family member which will pass down the line. Oh and since family now includes the Jungle, it is all set-up for a deathmatch between Jungle and Empire where regardless of result will absolutely kill most of his family(and subjects) at best.

It is not a victory to sacrifice something you put above all for lesser things. And the irony is that the Bai would be, if not happy, satisfied in getting retribution at terrible cost so he also gets to live with the knowledge the 'silver lining' of his situation is being like his most hated enemies.

Being Sun Shao sucks is what I am saying.
 
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TimEd said:
Both Sun and Bai failed to get anything close to a satisfying win in this conflict. The only real victor is the Red Jungle, and maybe their unrelated neighbors with the Imperial faction getting the most advantage out of a weakened Bai.
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This is what I was replying to:
TimEd said:
He made the Bai bleed for it though. Too costly and definitely not worth it as a stand alone thing, but those he deems as almighty flinched against his vengeance and shed flesh and broken fangs against his retaliation.
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You present vengeance as silver lining to his losses and how his every action only increased them, yet in his worldview it is not. There is no but. It was simply too costly and not worth it. Or since we are making snippy quotes now:
TimEd said:
Too costly and definitely not worth it
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Also the Bai are setting-up for the satisfying win, the best kind of victory even, reformation into something better. Assuming, you know, if Sublimes throwing down doesn't kill and render near uninhabitable most of the Empire.
 
yrsillar said:
"Yes, I do not think Xiangmen agrees with me," Xia Lin said, looking harried.

"It's a little overwhelming, but I thought you would be more used to it," Ling Qi said, glancing at Xia Lin. "Don't the White Plumes train here?"

"Our training camp and prime staging facilities lie in the outer boroughs, not the city proper. Everything is too packed and chaotic inside," Xia Lin said, smoothing the trailing white and gold sleeves of her dress for the seventh time since Ling Qi had met her at the gate.

She looked like she was assessing danger in the wilderness instead of measuring a gala full of civilians even now.
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It looks like she's getting overwhelmed by needing to perform threat assessments on everyone, and in a major city thats just too many moving in and out of range.

Kinda like PTSD really.
yrsillar said:
"I am similar. I have little need for externally supplied equipment," Xia Lin said. "...But I suppose if I am accompanying you and Lady Cai after this, I will need some kind of household?"

"Well I hope the White Plumes will let you stay in their barracks awhile longer. It will be some time before there's anything but temporary construction," Ling Qi said. "Still it will be good to have you, There are quite a few dangerous places in the land Lady Cai has claimed?"
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It occurs to me that most clan kids don't need to worry about such things(or at least would have a personal household and assets to deploy by then) but the Xia has pretty much built themselves exclusively into Shenhua's personal army and thus neglected such things.
yrsillar said:
"Why would you ask me about such things?" Xia Lin asked, raising an eyebrow.

"Because you won't go into a battlefield without reconnaissance," Ling Qi said.

Xia Lin wrinkled her nose irritably. "This is not my favored terrain."

"I'm sure you didn't let that stop you."

"...The court clans of Xiangmen are out in force. I have been dodging luncheons and other fripperies since I arrived," Xia Lin finally said, looking sour. "But the remaining ones have been scrabbling for importance since the Duchess reorganized Xiangmen."
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Qi: "If I handle everything like a heist, she must handle everything like a war."
"Wow, it works."
yrsillar said:
"What exactly do the court clans do, and how do they work anyway?" Ling Qi asked. "I've not found the time to ask Lady Cai, and I feel like this is another of those things everyone is simply expected to know, and forgets that a common girl from a little city does not."

Xia Lin shot her a curious look. "Lately, little enough. Court clans occur mostly in Xiangmen, the Imperial City, and the Peaks, and to some degree in the Alabaster Sands, where there is enough wealth in cities to support a clan even if they own little land, and the ruling dukes are not numerous enough to fill those roles themselves."

"I understand that part well enough," Ling Qi said. "But what do they do?"

Xia Lin pursed her lips. "Mercantile and bureaucratic work mostly. They staff the ministries, move goods and such.
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To expand upon this for the general audience - this is what subordinate clans normally do.
Its NORMALLY something that can only fund up to Yellows and maybe a Green elder or something.

But in major cities, you have enough administrative matters that subordinate clans get very wealthy and can promote in their own right.

Which is very strange to many people because they just move things and numbers around and somehow that's valuable even though they don't make anything.
yrsillar said:
In Xiangmen it used to be that each Provincial Ministry and such things as the Xiangmen guard were the fiefdoms of individual clans in function. The Duchess eliminated this practice, and now those that remain jockey for new ways of making wealth."

Ling Qi gave a sidelong look to Xia Lin. "Eliminated huh?"

"The Dai, who once made up over seventy percent of Xiangmen's guard officers, no longer exist as a legal entity, though the few adults found innocent of any crimes were absorbed into other clans or positions. There is a Dai among the White Plumes," Xia Lin acknowledged. "Three others suffered the same, several others were badly mauled but remain extant, but stripped of their special privileges. Those who remain are… a strange mix of caution and ambition."
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This now is unusual.
Such things are normally run in clans, because it requires high literacy in words and numbers as well as economic theory. And all that requires expensive education from a young age.

You can make it work, but that'd require that a functional public education system is in place so that the cost of basic literacy is borne by the state.
I'd guess while Empress Xiang's programs is in place, Shenhua needed 10 years for the students to graduate and get hired.

On the flip side, the clans that DID survive are cautious of overreach, but they have the expertise advantage, and on top of that they have been "proven pure", because they went through an Inquisition without being burned
yrsillar said:
"Hm, I have my own channels for meeting the Meng" Ling Qi said thoughtfully.

"Yes, Meng Dan does seem fond of you," Xia Lin agreed.

"I've had some success negotiating with his grandmother too. I don't feel that position needs shored up," Ling Qi agreed.
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...Ling Qi, even the fight-nut can see it.



yrsillar said:
Bai Fuxi, exalted duke of the Thousand lakes sat in state, upon the Throne of Still Waters. It was a square and blocky thing, semming carved from dull blue-black stone, high backed and without decoration or cushion, greatly at odds with these resplendent halls. Yet, it was a piece carved by mighty Yao himself in the days of myth, from the mystery that lay at the bottom of Lake Hei, where only those of unparalleled might and will could reach, below even where Grandmother Serpent slept now.

The deathly miasma of that throne stung his eyes and itched at his nose even ten meters distant, and with all the might of the fifth realm within him. Only one strong in the blood of Grandmother Serpent could ever sit upon such a thing and not die.
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Yao was quite a crafter as well huh.

...wait, did he carve out a chunk of destructive and poisonous void from the bottom of Lake Hei to use as a chair? And it seems the story is not quite complete, for Yao used that throne and he certainly wasn't of her blood. Maybe it was added as a feature later.
I'm thinking the throne is more of a badassitude check, and being of strong Bai blood lets you lower the difficulty.

Also does this predate the Imperial throne?
yrsillar said:
He spoke those words from his heart, no matter how cruel they could be, the great white serpents had sheltered and protected this land for eons, since before even the earliest pages of history, his people, his family, his clan could never have existed beyond them. So what if their descendants were sometimes haughty beyond their means. No family could be fully beyond impetuousness in their youths. He told no lie when he spoke of the honor that was to kneel before the Duke of Bai, the Lord of the lakes.
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Just imagine what it took for someone of his cultivation to change their mind on this.
For someone who thought that fighting and dying for them to plot and scheme was a privilege.

Broken social contracts can be devastating.
yrsillar said:
"It would reflect poorly upon me if I was not aware of events of significance in my lands," Bai Fuxi's voice is soft and cool, like the whisper of silk pulled over a polished blade. "And such a battle as that you partook in at Huibei Gorge is no small event. Tell me, how did you bring victory to our people after my great grandnephew shamed himself so utterly?"

Among the observers a tall pale woman with bloodless lips and narrow eyes stiffened, and Sun Shao felt pain pricking his back. The patron of that young master he supposed. Whatever her anger though, one must always take responsibility for their actions.
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Here we see Sun Shao being used to shame White Caste Bai.
As Bai Fuxi is beyond their retaliation, they turn to the lesser.
yrsillar said:
"I was merely unsure if your grace would care for mere small unit tactics," Sun Shao said. "And the terrain of the gorge allowed me to stretch out the barbarian lines, and repeatedly bait their vanguard into poor position."

"My sacrificing men to die like beasts while you dithered and circled," said one of the Duke's children, a tall woman white hair shorn uncharacteristically short. "What of this is courage? Have you not just said that our armies are worthy to face any rabble head on?"
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Okay, this critically needs fixing.
One of the flaws of overly stagnant courts is the persistent need to demonstrate strength, even by taking unnecessarily handicaps or at unreasonable cost.

Which leads to Charge My Force Into Their Strongest Point tactics.
What kind of Bai is so out of touch they won't even do flanking tactics?
yrsillar said:
The woman looked as if she would speak again, the slim hand of Bai Fuxi rose, and like a blade cut off any sound that could have emerged. "You are not Bai, you are not capable as we are. In the face of this weakness it is virtuous to use what is available to you. I find your conduct… pleasing. Field Commander Sun. Though this victory was costly. The lands of the Vale of Thorns lie unplundered, barely even touched. It is as you say,there is no shame in sacrificing for my Thousand Lakes. There is certainly much less shame than playing games with one's duties to it, of allowing a feckless child a vital command."
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From this, the commander was basically giving a position beyond his actual ability to boost his reputation with an easy victory or two.
Didn't work out, so they tried to shift the blame to the incompetence of their subordinates.

All very classic.
yrsillar said:
"So it is that I revoke the generalship of the western march, the third army, and the levy of the Vale of Thorns and Hubei Gorge," spoke the Duke, cold eyes scanning the observers and even flicking to one or two of his children. "It is clear to my eyes now I cannot entrust this duty to one who remains in Zhengjian and its environs. Nor may I ask that any of my resplendent kin to go and live among the flies and the vines and the jungle mud. Therefore…"

"Rise Sun Shao, Marquis of the northwestern march. I name you commander of its forces, governor of its lands, keeper of its people."

"I name you my Scarlet General. Let the red try where the white has failed."
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And this epicly pissed off everyone at court(Wrong gender outsider given important leadership position explicitly over Bai who were shamed with being unfit), while also making Sun Shao a folk hero to the lower castes. Did find it strange how someone as direct as he is would have drawn so many along in his rebellion, because he doesn't have the propaganda or communications reach to actually do that.

But if Bai Fuxi was boosting his reputation as part of a court ploy, then when he was turned against the Bai, he used that reputation as a weapon

Sun Shao's cultivation clues:
-Though he bore no weapon here, any cultivator with eyes could see the shadow of his spear in his spirit, as much a part of him as his arms or legs.
-He was Sun Shao, and he did not shy from the duty to his home!
-It was the suffering and discipline of soldiers which gave softer folk the ability to scheme and plot at all.
-No family could be fully beyond impetuousness in their youths.
-He told no lie when he spoke of the honor that was to kneel before the Duke of Bai, the Lord of the lakes.
-The Thousand Lakes are our home and we, of the marches, would spill an ocean of our own blood to defend it.
-He was a soldier, to toil and sacrifice was his lot.

He defines himself repeatedly as a soldier.
He defines further by bloodshed and sacrifice, of how suffering creates worth.
He make use of significant Home metaphors in his worldview.

I'm thinking once he found out that the attack on his family was due to White caste plotting betraying his sacrifices, he's pretty much locked into rebellion or way-break.
 
If the Dutches Way is REVOLUTION, wouldnt overthrowing her be easy in the end? Like without the need for dangerous big boss fight? I mean we will just have to get strong and wait for her to make enemies from enough people. Then start a revolution very publicly and loudly with enough support and the Dutches Way will break or she will have to join us and killherself.
 
Shenhua is a White.
She is not going to die quietly.
It is not enough to just show up opposing her, we must also have the strength to overcome her, be it through combat or convincing her that we have something better.
 
I feel like someone with flawed Way as her will be easy to "outsmart" we just need to force her into the right situation where she will break or something will break/trap her. We need to find more about her history and how she cultivated her power.
 
It will definetly be easier then fighting her. Since she manage to cultivate to the peak in record 50 years there is no way she could go through perfect route to gain power. Sacrifice too much or sacrifice the wrong thing. If we found out more about her maybe we could just trap her with some impossible task, or force her to fight forever something way above her. The Dutches is already trying to get her daughter to kill her, because she is not sustainable.
White cultivators are more spirits then humans. We alread saw what logical flaw can do to a spirit.
 
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ReaderOndra said:
It will definetly be easier then fighting her. Since she manage to cultivate to the peak in record 50 years there is no way she could go through perfect route to gain power. Sacrifice too much or sacrifice the wrong thing. If we found out more about her maybe we could just trap her with some impossible task, or force her to fight forever something way above her. The Dutches is already trying to get her daughter to kill her, because she is not sustainable.
White cultivators are more spirits then humans. We alread saw what logical flaw can do to a spirit.
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And by easier you mean not literally impossible?
Only beings above her are Great Spirits who can't be accessed for face punching, and sublimes that if awakened would rip apart the empire.
We already have an actual functional method, and it is not trying to find some logic trap we can yell at her or trap her within.
It is to work with her nature and convince her that Cai Renxiang is better suited than her to be the Duchess.

Orbmorb said:
Sure, but keep in mind that Zeqing's death almost killed us at the epicenter and raised quite a ruckus on her whole mountain, and Shenhua is extremely more powerful.
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Zeqing also intentionally decided to violate her nature in order to allow her daughter to live and grow, and even that took time.
Trying to trap a white level cultivator like that is not only unlikely to succeed, but it would also probably destroy the province if it did.
 
Honestly there are two easier outcomes than "beating" Shenhua. Renxiang just has to prove herself more worthy for the Throne of Xiangmen / Throne of the Emerald Seas. So two alternative outcomes are:

1- Shenhua is convinced to fully lock into Ascension, so that she may better impact Glorious Revolution as soon as possible
2- Shenhua is convinced to be a full time advisor/ally to the Empress, and take Xia Ren along with the White Plumes as an auxiliary force without peer

Just because the Emerald Seas may move on from the need for Shenhua and The Crucible's direct involvement, doesn't mean other areas of the Empire won't be in need of Glorious Progress. In addition, I have a feeling that her intervention and meddling into other provinces will aid her reach as a Great Spirit once she ascends. We know that Unity of Blades has some reach, as they're resonant with other Local Laws of the Empire. While at the same time, Palace of One seems to be a Dream of Emerald Seas unity and probably is more limited in locality.
 
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