Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)
- Thread starter yrsillar
- Start date
- Original Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
- Location
- A bed
Or maybe she ascends by being overthrown in turn, revolution giving way to revolution. Or my personal theory Shenhua does not ascend at all as her Job Is Done.
BagFullOfLizards
Some bag, mostly lizards
- Location
- A bag
I could see her ascending as an act of rebellion against the natural order. "Shenhua, having fought until she was the highest authority in the province, then set her sights on the heavens themselves" feels very xianxia.
So of the people we've met Shenua is in a weird position, the Diao matriarch indicated she's reached her limits. Bai Suzhen might go for a Bai centric law, and Sun grandpa absolutely seems like the kind of guy who would ascend specifically to give his family an advantage. Have we met anyone else that might have a shot at ascension soon?
The obvious Law for Shenhua is "the empire long united must divide" or, more generally, that even nations will inevitably fall before the Law of Time eventually.
It might take another 30,000 years but the empire will one day collapse.
It might take another 30,000 years but the empire will one day collapse.
Last edited:
- Location
- United States
I mean an obvious law that Shenhua could be ascending with is that flawed/corrupt regimes breed their own revolution/downfall/successor. Part of her path may acknowledge that she is a great revolutionary and poor ruler and thus has engendered the next revolution to overthrow her by giving birth to her child. Maybe as a continual cycle of 'improvement' on each prior ruler...
So Yao the Fisher ascensed as Invioate Death, huh?
That reminds me of the death mirror we got at the same time as our protodomain weapon. At the time, Meizhen warned Ling Qi that Death Qi changed you easier and deeper than any other kind of Qi. I guess she really knew what she was talking about.
That reminds me of the death mirror we got at the same time as our protodomain weapon. At the time, Meizhen warned Ling Qi that Death Qi changed you easier and deeper than any other kind of Qi. I guess she really knew what she was talking about.
Last edited:
So taking a look at what provoked their ascension.
Every ascendant is there because of a personal problem that they shaped their lives around to change the world for.
He killed everyone in his home region to become the Top Murder. Then he killed the region boss, and wandered the proto-Empire killing stuff.
Yao is mega haunted.
Now, this wasn't a problem while he was a wanderer, he killed them in life, in death they've already been impressed with his lethality and would not bother him. But they'd bother everyone around him once he settled down and people had to deal with the miasma of dead spirits bemoaning their fate.
So he sealed them away, by expanding upon his lethality and killed their ability to cross freely.
Likely modern exorcism rites are derived from his practices too, and from there funeral rites for haunts that need less impressing.
This ALSO meant that spirits would need more effort to intercede in the mortal world without proxies, which made large human settlements far easier, they can attract all the immaterial spirits they want, they can't manifest.
What would someone pioneering the school of TEACHING want?
Two things:
-That your students do not fall needlessly. Tribulation Unending encoded it in the cosmos that surviving a Tribulation will bring strength. Remember, this was the proto-Empire, threats abound, and most people do not learn anything from nearly dying to a mega spirit's activities, they just roll again and again until they finally die.
-That the worthy learn. Those with the courage and determination to face danger thrive.
This also laid down a wide ranging passive effect against tyranny of any form, unjust or malicious rulers would fuel the growth of vassals who survive their reign. Every tyrant breeds the seeds of their fall.
Which also fucked with forms of government across the proto-Empire no doubt, which is why the next generation of ascendants are like how they are.
What followed is two opposite reactions to growing populations and social instability, as the weak grew numerous in abundant food and then grew strong in adversity.
This mitigated Tribulation Unending's powerup for oppressed underlings, if you establish clear limits and responsibilities for each strata of society, rather than a free for all reign of the strong being dethroned.
My guess is that they had a time where kings rose up from adversity and set to trying to subjugate everything, and Crownbreaker ended that nonsense.
Then you have the terraformers:
These three guys made their regions far more habitable.
And from there imperialization started, as these two allowed the budding Empire to reliably and consistently produce potent cultivators. Pills allow rapid growth, meridians allowed for efficient low level arts, and jade slips ensured that arts can be taught without tying up a senior cultivator or spirit to teach the whole thing.
After that you got two for asserting central authority.
Yes, thats a Defeat Means Friendship Great Spirit, he formalized "I kicked your ass, now join me."
Then we have the Birdsplosion consequences:
After all when the Xi fell, there was simply no Unity of Blades available - nobody had the force to unite the Emerald Seas by force.
These guys might have been beneficiaries of Tribulation Unending, who ensured that those yet living in the hell desert were rewarded for their endless trials and grew quickly resistant, and in the environment where you could use no road, they had landsails to travel by.
Heh.
...possibly by making them more xenophobic as well.
Thats what it sounds like. Eternity Current made the greater ocean actually traversable.
Every ascendant is there because of a personal problem that they shaped their lives around to change the world for.
Yao was simple, since we know the most about him.
He killed everyone in his home region to become the Top Murder. Then he killed the region boss, and wandered the proto-Empire killing stuff.
Yao is mega haunted.
Now, this wasn't a problem while he was a wanderer, he killed them in life, in death they've already been impressed with his lethality and would not bother him. But they'd bother everyone around him once he settled down and people had to deal with the miasma of dead spirits bemoaning their fate.
So he sealed them away, by expanding upon his lethality and killed their ability to cross freely.
Likely modern exorcism rites are derived from his practices too, and from there funeral rites for haunts that need less impressing.
This ALSO meant that spirits would need more effort to intercede in the mortal world without proxies, which made large human settlements far easier, they can attract all the immaterial spirits they want, they can't manifest.
This one we don't know as much about, and the author might have taken it from a different angle. But we know that while Zhi was famed for her martial prowess, subduing her teacher and the province by force, she was ALSO the founder of the proto-Sect system.
What would someone pioneering the school of TEACHING want?
Two things:
-That your students do not fall needlessly. Tribulation Unending encoded it in the cosmos that surviving a Tribulation will bring strength. Remember, this was the proto-Empire, threats abound, and most people do not learn anything from nearly dying to a mega spirit's activities, they just roll again and again until they finally die.
-That the worthy learn. Those with the courage and determination to face danger thrive.
This also laid down a wide ranging passive effect against tyranny of any form, unjust or malicious rulers would fuel the growth of vassals who survive their reign. Every tyrant breeds the seeds of their fall.
Which also fucked with forms of government across the proto-Empire no doubt, which is why the next generation of ascendants are like how they are.
Tsu the Diviner, as we know, organized the weather so that it stopped happening randomly and took turns, and all the arts of agriculture. Side effects is an explosion in the size of supportable populations, which if you combine with Tribulation Unending meant that an era of significant civil unrest awaits.
What followed is two opposite reactions to growing populations and social instability, as the weak grew numerous in abundant food and then grew strong in adversity.
The Bai set and fixed their castes. This is not elaborated upon, but we've seen quite a few Bai by now and I think we have a grasp at how it works - it made clear and definitive hereditary markers, which serve as social status flags and reduce conflict so long as each caste works within its own roles.
This mitigated Tribulation Unending's powerup for oppressed underlings, if you establish clear limits and responsibilities for each strata of society, rather than a free for all reign of the strong being dethroned.
The Zheng went the other direction, though the means we don't know.
My guess is that they had a time where kings rose up from adversity and set to trying to subjugate everything, and Crownbreaker ended that nonsense.
Then you have the terraformers:
The Jing found that waves deciding to go whereever the hell they liked was an utter pain for a coastal people, especially with aquatic monsters riding them up. By arranging the tides to follow patterns(the Moon), they can be worked with, rather than waves destroying any sea facing infrastructure before long.
The Xuan sent their volcanoes to sleep...and I suspect it may have been an intended effect to make the elder Xuanwu more sleepy, and thus more suited to settlement than an energetic turtle.
And then we have math architect guy, making sense and imposing rules upon the remnant setlements of the Dragon Kings so that they can be controlled and brought to order.
These three guys made their regions far more habitable.
And the first Medicine God, who took architectural techniques and applied them to the human body. Here we see meridians being artificial, and they give imperials quite the advantage, if they can develop spiritual hardware dedicated to certain techniques, it'd be more efficient than organically modulating your qi in the right forms.
And the father of jade slips. Jade computing, as it were!
And from there imperialization started, as these two allowed the budding Empire to reliably and consistently produce potent cultivators. Pills allow rapid growth, meridians allowed for efficient low level arts, and jade slips ensured that arts can be taught without tying up a senior cultivator or spirit to teach the whole thing.
After that you got two for asserting central authority.
Code of Law, to establish common rules of behavior across the empire.
And more locally, enforcing order by force.
Yes, thats a Defeat Means Friendship Great Spirit, he formalized "I kicked your ass, now join me."
Then we have the Birdsplosion consequences:
This one is less certain, given current political trends would be to crap on the Hui, but I believe Palace of One may have intended to provide an alternative to Unity of Blades, by binding people together via a shared ideal.
After all when the Xi fell, there was simply no Unity of Blades available - nobody had the force to unite the Emerald Seas by force.
These guys might have been beneficiaries of Tribulation Unending, who ensured that those yet living in the hell desert were rewarded for their endless trials and grew quickly resistant, and in the environment where you could use no road, they had landsails to travel by.
As for this guy...I think he just cultivated to the point where alcohol didn't work on him anymore, and in his horror he made it a law of nature that you can always get drunk if you wanted.
Heh.
This here is just correcting for the genetic drift making the caste system of the Bai weakening.
...possibly by making them more xenophobic as well.
This one...created the Grand Line?
Thats what it sounds like. Eternity Current made the greater ocean actually traversable.
And this one is a modern solution to modern problems.
- Location
- The United States
- Pronouns
- He/They
I've always thought that Elder Jiao lost his way because An's successor wasn't worthy and he had made himself too much a Shadow, but....
"...whose eyes have granted..."
If you had asked me yesterday "What are Emperor An's Ten Thousand Eyes" I would have answered "Sima Jiao".
What if he was betrayed by An, and used as the basis for the buff to the Ministry of Integrity?
What if instead of betrayel that was the plan the whole time?
Loss of An was always going to destabilize Jiao's Way. Maybe they planned for his sight to be spread across the entire Ministry somehow, which is what made it so terrible for Jiao when the Empress used the Ministry poorly.
- Location
- The Space Between
It's really interesting to consider the Founding Kings and their Ascensions. While Lake Hei, Grandmother Serpent, the Stone Ape and Xiangmen are localized features of the Empire the Ascended Spirits seem to be ones that spread their influence across traditional borders during the formation of Imperial Culture.
I'll start with The Bountiful Earth. The Bountiful Earth is a spirit that supports all from the most basic of foundations, the soil. Agriculture is a good deal for all beings that participate in the pact, from the most self-important humans to the lowliest of composting worms. We've met spirits that participate in shepherding, so it wouldn't shock me if we met spirits that participate in farming. In fact, isn't Xiangmen a farmer? I suppose that's where Tsu could have developed his ideas, learning at the foot of Xiangmen itself. Pacts between different parties, without the dissolving of the various parties into one organism, is extremely important to the Emerald Seas and the Weilu-hewing clans we know about. Both the Meng and the Luo work very closely with their local spirits in a non-dominating fashion, and the "Love of Peace" as a Virtue probably comes from the Emerald Seas (if such a thing is an Imperial Virtue).
Tribulations Unending. I believe Tribulations Unending is a spirit that supports "the perpetual students of life" that those finding their Ways are. I believe Tribulations Unending is probably the foundation for the "Tribulation = Insight" requirement in mid-Green, as well as the reason that you can confidently assume that Tribulations will give Insights. The world isn't inherently fair, but I believe Tribulations Unending makes it a bit more fair by more firmly insuring the risks with rewards worthy of them. If the Zheng are founded as perpetual students, but also with a firm set of responsibilities between Masters and Students, then their chaotic culture starts to make more sense. It isn't the only job of the strong to make sure that things are more fair than before, it's also their job to make sure the next generation has Tribulations to strengthen themselves on. The Zheng in the Ministry of Law also makes way more sense now, and I bet he's able to hew rather close to the original intent of the Zheng. Using your Strength to make the world a Fairer place is probably a Virtue they'd uphold.
The Bai's first contribution is Inviolate Death. Veekie describes well the necessity of Inviolate Death for large settlements of human inhabitants, and it does seem likely that standardized rites of exorcism likely come from Inviolate Death. The other Bai Ascensions described are inward facing and important locally, but Inviolate Death seems to have become important as a properly "Imperial" level Spirit. This also makes the potential roles of the Black Viper much more interesting to me, because "Guarding the House from intruders" means something a lot different on this scale. What did Meizhen call the Liminal realm? Grandfather's Hearth? Sounds like the Black Vipers also have a task of making sure sparks and "embers" from the Hearth don't scatter on the floor in an unseemly manner. In any case, I bet both the Bai and the Zheng take the rights of guests very seriously since both male founding figures were related to such a thing. Yao, the defending man making sure the uninvited and unannounced are spotted and dealt with. The Stone Ape, making sure that proper guests are treated with proper respect.
This could very easily be a point of conflict, and respect, between the two. The Zheng respect Guest Right, and seek Tribulation so they tread the line of acceptability. The Bai respect the Defense of the Home, and any that can catch an over-arrogant clever monkey would surely gain respect in the eyes of their peers. The Zheng gain from surviving the Serpent's Den, and the Bai gain from Defending the Home and Commanding Respect. It would make perfect sense for them to rival and war often, despite the distance between their two polities. By contrast, the Weilu wouldn't really care much for such games. The Weilu are about making proper Pacts with others to ensure mutual prosperity. They can look weak to the Bai, that value Domination. They can look weak to the Zheng, that value Tribulation. However, they held their own and earned a position of respect alongside those two.
The combination of these three, as Veekie described, would lead to massive Bronze Age Unrest that would spur the next generation of Heroes. Bronze Coils Unbending establishes a caste system that could only have been a step up from the situation before (endless inheritance war). Crownbreaker seems to have done something similar in the Ebon Rivers. Fair Tides Dawn made the seas more navigable for Jing sailors. Slumbering Peaks probably made the Xuan Wu less volatile, alongside the volcanos of their lands. There are some notable absences from the list, however.
First are the absences based on the old timeline which may no longer be canon:
He the Glorious who founded the Lu
The Hermit King of the Living Isle (the Living Isle is the sublime Xuan Wu that continues to sail around to this day)
Ji the Mariner who founded the Jing
and of course, the Sage Emperor (who died on his Way to ascension)
Now these heroes all come from somewhere around 2000 years post The Big Three. They grew up in a world of much higher population densities, much more likely rewards from Tribulations, and great internal strife as the old power structures are broken by them as they push past them.
I think we can assume that the Jing and Xuan leaders are the ones that ascended, but only their Ascended names are mentioned. Just a little oddity to note about this presumably Peaks-written excerpt.
More flagrant is that there's no mention of an ascended Lu at all. I doubt this is the result of lost archives, which makes it strange that they're not even given that face. I suppose the expounding on the modern Golden Fields' Ascended makes up for it in some way.
Then you have the Sage Emperor, potentially the greatest of these heroes and the forger of the Empire. However he did end up dying on his Way in Red Garden, and so it makes sense to not mention his Ascension as there wasn't one.
All that said, there's another absence that catches my eye. There are no noted Weilu ascended beyond The Bountiful Earth. This was the era of the Masons' War, which devastated the Weilu to the point of losing track of The Horned Lord. The Sage Emperor showed up in the aftermath and had them swear fealty, but the Weilu had broken themselves prior to that point. Later the survivors would develop a "Path of Pure Soul" and eventually disappear from this world. It would seem that Uncle Skelly would have to come from that era in order to be considered Arch-Heretic by the White Lotus Cult. Still, the breaking down of a scar or a body or a Way is an earthly endeavor. When your founding Patriarch became "The Bountiful Earth" severing yourself from worldly/earthly attachments seems like a continuation of self-annihilation/civil-war doesn't it?
In any case, neither Unity of Blades nor Palace of One sounds like they made progress on the wounds of the Masons' War. One tries to say "if we become better Imperials such strife will end up behind us", which sounds good right at the founding of the Ministry of Law but becomes less sound as corruption finds ways around such rigid words. The next tries to say "if we just focus on our own interests, we'll never fall into such a strife again since such strife benefits nobody". In the end, though, a force came together so fiercely interested in the deposing of the Hui that even Xiangmen decided to give them a chance to do so. No, unlike Thousand Lakes or Ebon Rivers it seems that the Emerald Seas haven't had heroes capable of stabilizing it for more than a few generations of Whites. In fact, Shenhua knows that her own Way won't be stabilizing either. She'll be relying on Renxiang for that.
I think we'll probably end up being a needle, pulling the threads of connection back and forth across the province as our band of heroes solves long standing "holes in the social fabric" like Madame Grey in a way that allows the local powers involved (the Diao in this case) to save face while also improving the lives of those further down the totem pole. The chores of the "farm" called Emerald Seas need to be done, and long have the duties been pushed onto those that are ruled rather than taken up by those at the top. With the help of Uncle Skelly's story-telling-training, we'll be able to "spin a yarn" that'll stabilize this province yet!
I'll start with The Bountiful Earth. The Bountiful Earth is a spirit that supports all from the most basic of foundations, the soil. Agriculture is a good deal for all beings that participate in the pact, from the most self-important humans to the lowliest of composting worms. We've met spirits that participate in shepherding, so it wouldn't shock me if we met spirits that participate in farming. In fact, isn't Xiangmen a farmer? I suppose that's where Tsu could have developed his ideas, learning at the foot of Xiangmen itself. Pacts between different parties, without the dissolving of the various parties into one organism, is extremely important to the Emerald Seas and the Weilu-hewing clans we know about. Both the Meng and the Luo work very closely with their local spirits in a non-dominating fashion, and the "Love of Peace" as a Virtue probably comes from the Emerald Seas (if such a thing is an Imperial Virtue).
Tribulations Unending. I believe Tribulations Unending is a spirit that supports "the perpetual students of life" that those finding their Ways are. I believe Tribulations Unending is probably the foundation for the "Tribulation = Insight" requirement in mid-Green, as well as the reason that you can confidently assume that Tribulations will give Insights. The world isn't inherently fair, but I believe Tribulations Unending makes it a bit more fair by more firmly insuring the risks with rewards worthy of them. If the Zheng are founded as perpetual students, but also with a firm set of responsibilities between Masters and Students, then their chaotic culture starts to make more sense. It isn't the only job of the strong to make sure that things are more fair than before, it's also their job to make sure the next generation has Tribulations to strengthen themselves on. The Zheng in the Ministry of Law also makes way more sense now, and I bet he's able to hew rather close to the original intent of the Zheng. Using your Strength to make the world a Fairer place is probably a Virtue they'd uphold.
The Bai's first contribution is Inviolate Death. Veekie describes well the necessity of Inviolate Death for large settlements of human inhabitants, and it does seem likely that standardized rites of exorcism likely come from Inviolate Death. The other Bai Ascensions described are inward facing and important locally, but Inviolate Death seems to have become important as a properly "Imperial" level Spirit. This also makes the potential roles of the Black Viper much more interesting to me, because "Guarding the House from intruders" means something a lot different on this scale. What did Meizhen call the Liminal realm? Grandfather's Hearth? Sounds like the Black Vipers also have a task of making sure sparks and "embers" from the Hearth don't scatter on the floor in an unseemly manner. In any case, I bet both the Bai and the Zheng take the rights of guests very seriously since both male founding figures were related to such a thing. Yao, the defending man making sure the uninvited and unannounced are spotted and dealt with. The Stone Ape, making sure that proper guests are treated with proper respect.
This could very easily be a point of conflict, and respect, between the two. The Zheng respect Guest Right, and seek Tribulation so they tread the line of acceptability. The Bai respect the Defense of the Home, and any that can catch an over-arrogant clever monkey would surely gain respect in the eyes of their peers. The Zheng gain from surviving the Serpent's Den, and the Bai gain from Defending the Home and Commanding Respect. It would make perfect sense for them to rival and war often, despite the distance between their two polities. By contrast, the Weilu wouldn't really care much for such games. The Weilu are about making proper Pacts with others to ensure mutual prosperity. They can look weak to the Bai, that value Domination. They can look weak to the Zheng, that value Tribulation. However, they held their own and earned a position of respect alongside those two.
The combination of these three, as Veekie described, would lead to massive Bronze Age Unrest that would spur the next generation of Heroes. Bronze Coils Unbending establishes a caste system that could only have been a step up from the situation before (endless inheritance war). Crownbreaker seems to have done something similar in the Ebon Rivers. Fair Tides Dawn made the seas more navigable for Jing sailors. Slumbering Peaks probably made the Xuan Wu less volatile, alongside the volcanos of their lands. There are some notable absences from the list, however.
First are the absences based on the old timeline which may no longer be canon:
He the Glorious who founded the Lu
The Hermit King of the Living Isle (the Living Isle is the sublime Xuan Wu that continues to sail around to this day)
Ji the Mariner who founded the Jing
and of course, the Sage Emperor (who died on his Way to ascension)
Now these heroes all come from somewhere around 2000 years post The Big Three. They grew up in a world of much higher population densities, much more likely rewards from Tribulations, and great internal strife as the old power structures are broken by them as they push past them.
I think we can assume that the Jing and Xuan leaders are the ones that ascended, but only their Ascended names are mentioned. Just a little oddity to note about this presumably Peaks-written excerpt.
More flagrant is that there's no mention of an ascended Lu at all. I doubt this is the result of lost archives, which makes it strange that they're not even given that face. I suppose the expounding on the modern Golden Fields' Ascended makes up for it in some way.
Then you have the Sage Emperor, potentially the greatest of these heroes and the forger of the Empire. However he did end up dying on his Way in Red Garden, and so it makes sense to not mention his Ascension as there wasn't one.
All that said, there's another absence that catches my eye. There are no noted Weilu ascended beyond The Bountiful Earth. This was the era of the Masons' War, which devastated the Weilu to the point of losing track of The Horned Lord. The Sage Emperor showed up in the aftermath and had them swear fealty, but the Weilu had broken themselves prior to that point. Later the survivors would develop a "Path of Pure Soul" and eventually disappear from this world. It would seem that Uncle Skelly would have to come from that era in order to be considered Arch-Heretic by the White Lotus Cult. Still, the breaking down of a scar or a body or a Way is an earthly endeavor. When your founding Patriarch became "The Bountiful Earth" severing yourself from worldly/earthly attachments seems like a continuation of self-annihilation/civil-war doesn't it?
In any case, neither Unity of Blades nor Palace of One sounds like they made progress on the wounds of the Masons' War. One tries to say "if we become better Imperials such strife will end up behind us", which sounds good right at the founding of the Ministry of Law but becomes less sound as corruption finds ways around such rigid words. The next tries to say "if we just focus on our own interests, we'll never fall into such a strife again since such strife benefits nobody". In the end, though, a force came together so fiercely interested in the deposing of the Hui that even Xiangmen decided to give them a chance to do so. No, unlike Thousand Lakes or Ebon Rivers it seems that the Emerald Seas haven't had heroes capable of stabilizing it for more than a few generations of Whites. In fact, Shenhua knows that her own Way won't be stabilizing either. She'll be relying on Renxiang for that.
I think we'll probably end up being a needle, pulling the threads of connection back and forth across the province as our band of heroes solves long standing "holes in the social fabric" like Madame Grey in a way that allows the local powers involved (the Diao in this case) to save face while also improving the lives of those further down the totem pole. The chores of the "farm" called Emerald Seas need to be done, and long have the duties been pushed onto those that are ruled rather than taken up by those at the top. With the help of Uncle Skelly's story-telling-training, we'll be able to "spin a yarn" that'll stabilize this province yet!
ImperatorV
The Laughing One
- Location
- The Voyaging Realm
...You know, it occurs to me that one of the biggest beneficiaries of Tribulation Unending is Gu Xulian. I've long wondered "How the flip does getting struck by lightning repeatedly result in cultivation benefits," but now it makes a lot more sense.
Wait...the Jin created the Eternity Current/Not Grand Line, the massive equatorial flow and ways to navigate it.
Ways nobody else knew.
Every navy near that would be fucked unless they base their fleets around beings with their own Law of the Sea or learn the new ways.
Even if she intended to open the world to trade and exploration, this created an Age of Piracy because the Jin could do whatever the hell they want and mess up naval developments everywhere else
Ways nobody else knew.
Every navy near that would be fucked unless they base their fleets around beings with their own Law of the Sea or learn the new ways.
Even if she intended to open the world to trade and exploration, this created an Age of Piracy because the Jin could do whatever the hell they want and mess up naval developments everywhere else
- Location
- The Space Between
no, see, I like that the greatest of the Hui was based on transgression and corruption of Boundaries not because it points out how bad the Hui are. But that it helps define the Hui in a three dimensional light because we, the audience, already know the perils of rigid boundaries. In fact, Ling Qi herself is about Boundaries and passing between them. Hell, Ling Qi is a thief. She's transgressive by definition, because a thief that's invited in and given gifts is simply a guest.
To be clear, the tolerance of multiplicity is not a Hui concept. That's a Tsu the Diviner concept, in which many kinds of being can come together for mutual benefit through Agriculture/Cultivation/Worship-of The Bountiful Earth. The Dragons and their successor Heavenly Peaks human culture are intolerant of mutualism and view everything through Hierarchical lens. Unfortunately, something occurred a few thousand years after the ascension of Tsu that caused the Masons' War to break out and the Weilu absolutely mutilated themselves during it.
Basically, Palace of One isn't inherently a bad spirit. We're already a transgressor, and benefit directly from the Black Lotus Hui-era talisman as well as our continual transgressions of the boundary between the liminal and the physical. Transgression of some sort of conceptual boundary is always required. Even the guest that is invited in and wanted must transgress the threshold in order to enter.
But a focus on transgression for it's own sake, or for exclusively self-interested desire is the kind of conceptual acid that dissolves every kind of collective bond rather than just the bad ones. Human Desire is limitless, and transgression refuses to follow rules. They needed someone to Ascend and clarify the Hui Way into something that could govern stably. Someone like the Grandmaster Hui that developed the Punk Style that Yu Nuan likes. Unfortunately they killed him off in their own self-interest to not suffer consequences for their actions. The Hui doomed the Hui by killing off the Hui.
Ultimately the Hui were never terrible because of what their ideals were, they were terrible because of the inevitable endpoint of their ideals (which was reached at some point and was definitely in effect when Shenhua coup'd them).
Like, ever heard the phrase "Power Corrupts"? I prefer the term "Power Reveals". If you're terrible, once you're free of consequence and have the power to achieve terrible things you'll do it. The Hui had Power for four thousand years and their clan devolved into the ugliest elements of Humanity that we have to offer. If Shenhua ever ascends, she will certainly Ascend as some sort of Revolution. A Consequence for the sort of corrupt stagnation showcased by the Hui. A spirit that will assist Revolutionaries seeking to reveal, punish and purge those that act without consequence.
Like. Their overall terribleness was so bad there's good odds that all of Creation is going to shift on a metaphysical level just to make sure a group like them cannot hold power for as long as they did.
Again, it's not the ideas that are the problem but the execution. If things had gone differently, if the Punk Hui or some other had risen and changed the infinite permissiveness, they could have been great.
but that's just a Dream. A beautiful lie, that was torn apart by Truth
Last edited:
kfrar
Aspiring Encyclopedia
Sorry for the delayed response. Anyhow, regarding WHR, and it still having multiple projects left, I fail to see how this is a problem. Yes, Ling Qi has learned a fair chunk of but not nearly all of WHR. And accordingly, Ling Qi can only understand so much of the art she'd be revamping, and it doesn't make sense that she could adapt the whole thing in one go without that mastery.
But I don't think it would be a terrible crime against setting fluff to have her adapt what she understands with the Garden of Mists project, and then to properly integrate the parts of the art she doesn't understand yet by doing projects for them after, like she would for any other art. Pretty sure we've done fuckier things to integrate mechanical and narrative concerns before.
(That's what this comes down to, for me. The entire system change is a liberty taken with existing in-setting Arts mechanics to better integrate mechanics and narrative, so I can't get worked up over pushing things a bit more if it smooths some narrative concerns.)
And as for SNR, sure, I'm not married to it, but tweaking it to better fit our aesthetic seems like a comparatively low-narrative-weight way to deal with the oddness of our defensive situation. If we find some satisfying alternative, that's cool, but I think it's at least worth considering as an option.
We have a side story from Jiao's perspective and we see the break there. He made his Way about himself being a tool and discarded everything that didn't make him a tool. But he couldn't discard the memories of his wife and properly toolize himself so his Way broke.
There is no in-story thing to suggest that An betrayed Jiao or An's own ideal. The guy's GS name is even absolute justice. And about empress being unworthy I think there's only ever a single mention of Jiao going on about how already An's work was being undone.
Diomedea
A piece of the continent
- Location
- The interblag
- Pronouns
- She/Her
While I agree with most of veekie's excellent analysis, I think they miss the mark on the Xi and the Unity of Blades. I think the Unity of Blades is actually about wartime rally around the flag type of effects or the bond of brotherhood created by wielding arms together on the same side rather than defeat means friendship. We know the Xi used conflict against the hill tribes and the cloud tribes to bring the province together under them in their army. Beating someone up to become their friend seems more like a Zheng thing to me.
When the Purifying Sun exploded, it wiped out the army of the Xi. This didn't just take out a very significant chunk of the Xi themselves, but it also took out those who stood by them and fought and would have been bound to them by the unity of blades, because they would have, by and large, been in the GF fighting alongside them. Because their unity was based in their army, when the army was wiped out it also effectively wiped out the factions in each of the count clans that would have been loyal to the Xi.
When the Purifying Sun exploded, it wiped out the army of the Xi. This didn't just take out a very significant chunk of the Xi themselves, but it also took out those who stood by them and fought and would have been bound to them by the unity of blades, because they would have, by and large, been in the GF fighting alongside them. Because their unity was based in their army, when the army was wiped out it also effectively wiped out the factions in each of the count clans that would have been loyal to the Xi.
I'm thinking its like, each change breeds the next
-Bountiful Earth - Prosperity through harmony.
The answer of Tsu the Diviner to a world where humans are alone and weak. Make friends and gang up on the beast lords.
Everyone who agrees cooperate, taking turns with limited resources.
Those who oppose harmony are subdued. They are a multitude where the union acts as one.
It fell when many turned against many, because ultimately theres no enforcement, it presented mutual benefit as the reason for unity, and no more.
Monkey together strong.
But what if two Togethers found themselves at odds?
-Unity of Blades - Unity through strength. Peace through power.
The imperialized Xi's answer to disunity.
The victor subjugates, not destroys the defeated.
It worked for ending the strife, so long as the lord is strong and frequently demonstrates their might. Which they had to because Tribulation Unending meant everyone was leveling up quickly all round.
It eventually failed when their strength failed. They marched to war and did not return.
This is a brittle unity, strong on the surface, but it had no resilience, once it started failing it shatters.
-Palace of One - Make dreams a reality.
In the wake of the Xi's methods, the Hui started with a cultural campaign. Gave people something to believe in.
If neither pragmatic common benefit nor suppression by force worked, then what if people united around something more intangible? No such thing exists, but what if you made it up?
This COULD have been the root of provincial Nationalism or other forms of idealism, but that didn't wind up happening because they discovered Post-Truth society first, where you just say whatever is needed to get people to do what you want, without bothering with realities.
The issue of this is again, perverse incentive.
When you can change how people respond by manipulating information and public perception, theres simply no incentive to expend real effort to deal with actual problems when you can just change their reactions.
This on its own would not be too terrible. They would be neglectful rulers and things would rot and become corrupt even while the facade remains shiny, but that remains far from The Worst.
The issue comes when you intersect this with Unity of Blades.
Because the Hui had IIRC only three Whites in total across their entire reign. They simply did not have the strength to unite the Emerald Seas, and Unity of Blades ensures that if someone DID have that strength their grip would be shaky.
So, because they didn't have the strength, they had to turn their vassals against each other to keep them weak. Which bumps up against Tribulation Unending again, they're now an ongoing tribulation to their own people, AND meanwhile, people living in dream paradises aren't growing stronger as much.
Which goes back to Unity of Blades - their position is less secure, so they fuck with people more to stay on top.
At this point they have become The Worst. The entire ruling class is living in their VR paradise, coming out only for stuff they can't get in their dream palaces - either hard resources or other people. Abuse grows rampant because theres no accountability - whoever is going around demanding that the sheeple wake up is going to be bashed into paste by hundreds of annoyed sleepers.
Then Shenhua shows up.
She had strength, and so the province falls in line behind her.
They had a common foe in the way of prosperity, so the province unites with her.
She had vision, and so they had something intangible to pursue.
If you think about it, between Tribulation Unending, Unity of Blades and the Hui turning the province against each other, the Emerald Seas was pretty much inevitably going to produce someone who was absolutely top murder at some point.
They really got lucky with Shenhua.
It could have been much worse.
E: I think Unity of Blades also included that. Its basically a Great Spirit of Unity Forged In Battle, whether defeat means dominion, or blade brothers united.
- Location
- Staring into the void
All this world building is just *chief kiss*
- Pronouns
- He/Him
You know I'm kinda wondering if this started not as a Zheng going 'Oh dang, I can't get drunk at high levels?' and more of a Zheng talking with the Reveler and hearing them say 'I like wine but I just can't get drunk anymore' and the Zheng going 'I must fix this for Master'
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I Don't know about that. The text states "all but the mightiest cultivators" …
The Revele does fall under the category of 'mightiest' being sublime and all that.
But if there is a Sublime that can ignore the reality of not being able to get Drunk, it would be the Ape whose name is "The Reveler".
Jiao has explicitly mentioned that An's work was being undone. He disagrees with Empress Xiang's priorities.
I'm pretty sure the brewer Zheng could make alcohols that could get just about anyone drunk before their ascension just like how its impossible to lie in Shenhua's presence. A sublime could presumably resist but the whole point is this is allowing people to get drunk, not forcing drunkenness on them.
Their ascension made this law permanent and able to extend beyond their presence, not enabling it at all.
Their ascension made this law permanent and able to extend beyond their presence, not enabling it at all.
On one hand, haha funny drunk moneky
But on the other, why did they feel so strongly about drinking? The Ebon Rivers has a liquor culture, was the "everyone can get drunk" a way to allow even the highest cultivator to still participate in the society they grew up in? To let they form and maintain casual connections over drink, like they did when they were mortal?
I feel like there's definitely benefits for high level cultivators being able to relax and let off steam in a nonviolent way, but it also seems pretty risky given that some people get violentl when drunk.
