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Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
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JowKeen said:
Before any construction, immigration, integration or other major deals can occur there needs to be some basic Cultural Exchange with the White Sky in order for there to be desire to engage with them
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No, I think you misunderstand my point. Construction, integration, immigration- these are things we need to do as part of creating our own domain. White sky weren't a part of what I was talking about- I meant just the sheer lift of carving a new territory out of the wilderness.

That is our primary job right now. Not being a spy master or a diplomat, just proving that we can build and run and protect cities.

So I think we can't just assume those things will be fine and focus ourselves on far distant things.

JowKeen said:
Here you even compare the power of our sister approaching cyan to be more directly leverageable than the good will of huge amounts of lower nobles and the Counts themselves (you say Ducals but I assume you meant Counts). That's so . . controlling. The only reason that such would be true is if diplomacy truly failed to precipitate any rainfall whatsoever.
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I don't expect anything from going -1 to 1. That's kinda the point. At the low levels, they are aware of us. Active help doesn't start until 3.

So it is far more important to me to lock in gains, by getting allies that will actually help us, than it is to manage our reputation further away where our efforts don't produce any returns.

As a side note, I don't think that even Tsu took the route you are describing: he built a power base and went to war, same as all the others. So I don't see a difference in approach between "collaboration" and "domination". I just see one path that works and one that doesn't.
 
Glau said:
I don't expect anything from going -1 to 1. That's kinda the point. At the low levels, they are aware of us. Active help doesn't start until 3.
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You don't need active help from an entire population as a spymaster. What you need is someone to go "Hey! Did you know this dumb Diao kid is doing funny business with the mail?" Assuming we have a reputation for discreetness, this costs the other people nothing and so having various individuals do that in a population that has level 2 reputation for us is going to be relatively easy to arrange as individuals vary. They won't be able to do anything like what the Wang and Bai have done for us but that's not what we are looking for.

The alternative is we are quite thoroughly protected in our own territory with a level 3 rep but give the assholes relatively free rein elsewhere. With this including the corridors of wealth and power. It also means we increasingly mark ourselves as a Weilu partisan, making it more difficult to reach out to the Imperial cultural network. After all, why bother reaching out to us proactively when we mostly ignored them the last time they did?
 
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JohnnieBoy123 said:
After all, why bother reaching out to us proactively when we mostly ignored them the last time they did?
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This isn't is declining an outstretched hand, this is choosing where to spend most of our limited time and energy writing letters. Right now, we are carving a province out of wilderness as well as trying to open up a trade route, and that necessarily means that we need the people who directly connect to those things (roads, canals, sections of river) to keep those things safe and clear of obstacles. As well as bringing in new citizens who already know how to live in a climate like this, getting advice on farming and building for climates like this, other stuff that requires a local focus.

We know that Rexiang is going to be the face of this to the duchess's court and the imperial advisor. I think that means we need to trust her to handle the larger province stuff, while we focus on the mechanics of making it work. Us being a neo-weilu partisan was locked in the moment the duchess called us out as a peace offering from spirits she had fight and broken in open court. We represent Rexiang's openness to those things by being her left hand, and I feel like it was not even a deliberate choice on her part, more a position she backfilled after knowing us.

So yeah, I would like to get a few neighbors to the point of actively helping us while we need them to, which means focusing on them.

I don't want to neglect our land and spirits in order to better play courtier games. That seems more imperial than my way.
 
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Glau said:
This isn't is declining an outstretched hand, this is choosing where to spend most of our limited time and energy writing letters. Right now, we are carving a province out of wilderness as well as trying to open up a trade route, and that necessarily means that we need the people who directly connect to those things (roads, canals, sections of river) to keep those things safe and clear of obstacles. As well as bringing in new citizens who already know how to live in a climate like this, getting advice on farming and building for climates like this, other stuff that requires a local focus.
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A bunch of people from Imperial Moderate territory wrote letters to us offering their support. You are suggesting that we don't write them back. That is absolutely declining an outstretched hand.

(Sheer volume of the response means we can't write everyone back, of course)
 
JohnnieBoy123 said:
A bunch of people from Imperial Moderate territory wrote letters to us offering their support. You are suggesting that we don't write them back. That is absolutely declining an outstretched hand.

(Sheer volume of the response means we can't write everyone back, of course)
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That isnt what this vote is about though. This vote is about where we focus our attention. Everyone that wrote to us is getting a letter back, the question is how much effort is going to go into those letters.
 
JohnnieBoy123 said:
A bunch of people from Imperial Moderate territory wrote letters to us offering their support. You are suggesting that we don't write them back. That is absolutely declining an outstretched hand.

(Sheer volume of the response means we can't write everyone back, of course)
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If you accept that your logic means snubbing our closer neighbors, and argue in favor of that, then do so. We need them more now.

Or, you can decline to pursue the line of argument that says we are insulting the ones we aren't choosing.
 
Glau said:
If you accept that your logic means snubbing our closer neighbors, and argue in favor of that, then do so. We need them more now.

Or, you can decline to pursue the line of argument that says we are insulting the ones we aren't choosing.
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How are we snubbing the people we've been working together with, about to dedicate some of our family to address the concerns of, and are staking our career on furthering the political goals of? That's not really how "snubbing" works.

Nor is it surprising for a public figure to not have the time to respond (with more than token effort) to every letter that crosses their desk. I am not being "snubbed" when the Queen of England doesn't write me a personalized response to my letter but I'm absolutely being told I'm not a priority (which is to be expected, she has vastly more important things to deal with). If you look at the sorts of requests she responds to and which she doesn't, you'll see what her priorities are and that absolutely has relevance. Just look at how people analyze her hats.

This is how nobility works. Every action we take is going to be poured over by all manner of people because we have become noteworthy. People are going to notice our choices and try to predict our actions accordingly. It only stands to reason that, as we choose to focus on the Weilu factions again and again, the Imperial factions are going to increasingly feel that we aren't sympathetic to them and behave more distantly.

Edit: And are they even wrong to do so? I've certainly written off the Imperial Conservatives. I'd just prefer not to write off the Imperial Moderates because there's a bunch of them and they could potentially become our supporters too.
 
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We aren't operating independently. We are acting as one of the provincial heir's aides. Developing a specialty, a group that know and like us, is how we add value to her. Let Gan or her talk to the imperial moderates.

Our family, our community, is local.
 
[X] Focus your network building effort on the Central Valley (+1 to region rep on completion of the Hou Zhuang's gift project. 50% chance on completion of gaining a +1 rep boost with Thundering Hills or South River Jing region)
 
Glau said:
We aren't operating independently. We are acting as one of the provincial heir's aides. Developing a specialty, a group that know and like us, is how we add value to her. Let Gan or her talk to the imperial moderates.

Our family, our community, is local.
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Hmm... Well I am sympathetic to wanting a core of friendly faces for or family, I don't think the vast majority of these people, in the foundation or central valley, will be interacting with our family for a long time. So I don't see it as necessary to build deep support work for them yet.

Given our family's youth and the fact that we are already starting a big diplomatic mission I find it a better choice to first spread out net wide. We don't know what future opportunities we will have, but by spreading a wide net we will have more leeway when we may have to make tough choices in the future.
 
It doesn't help that the rest of Renxiang's team/aides have fairly anemic political networks. Gan Guangli is also a commoner, and he got locked out of the Inner Sect and associated politicking for a year. Xia Lin probably has some contact with/insight into the Jia, but her focus on admittance into an organization of martial elite, at her young age, means her contacts should be limited. Meng Dan's an actual noble from a count clan, but politics aren't a strong focus of his, and the clan he's part of is the most politically isolated of the counts.

We, and Renxiang, can't really afford for us to nestle down purely in local specialty at this point, with the timeframes in play.

Glau said:
No, I think you misunderstand my point. Construction, integration, immigration- these are things we need to do as part of creating our own domain. White sky weren't a part of what I was talking about- I meant just the sheer lift of carving a new territory out of the wilderness.

That is our primary job right now. Not being a spy master or a diplomat, just proving that we can build and run and protect cities.

So I think we can't just assume those things will be fine and focus ourselves on far distant things.
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The trouble with this is that it isn't true. Our primary job is currently the diplomatic summit. It's our first, like in terms of literal timeline, priority. We're not leaving the sect to habitate and develop our fief for real until after the summit. The summit is the big immediate task we've hung our, and Renxiang's, political fates on since returning from White Sky holdings and addressing Xiangmen's court for the second time.

Our main goal right now is to secure political backing (or tolerance) for our foreign diplomacy project and to organize our team for summit business/negotiations. I know that hasn't been very prominent in the options available to us so far, but that's partly because of the mad political catchup game we've had to play and partly because we have a lot of moving parts going on right now and this stuff is genuinely hard to organize for any author.

It's the fief-building and cultural stuff which are the long-term projects right now, with our current career priorities(and vulnerabilities). Desperately pulling together modest buy-in for our foreign diplomacy and heading off complications are our most urgent duties at the moment.
 
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AbeoLogos said:
The summit is the big immediate task we've hung our, and Renxiang's, political fates on since returning from White Sky holdings and addressing Xiangmen's court for the second time.
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The central valley is explicitly the far-in-the-future payoff though. If diplomacy summit is immediate, why not take the more immediate win?
 
Glau said:
The central valley is explicitly the far-in-the-future payoff though. If diplomacy summit is immediate, why not take the more immediate win?
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Sixiang said it "Might take longer to see results though," but I actually don't agree with that analysis either. At least not in the context of supporting the summit. Focusing on the Foundation can be seen as having quicker payoff in how it supports Hanyi's concerts get "greater penetration", so there's a tangible payoff to the networking efforts earlier. But that's not the same thing as it being relevant to the summit.

Here's the issue: the Foundation cultural region is overseen by a split of the Meng and the Wang. Both clans tacitly support the summit already. These efforts would be focused in the Meng portions specifically, so it doesn't make sense to influence things in terms of Wang support, and we have direct friendly lines of communication for that anyway. From what we know of Meng internal politics, there's no way for Hanyi's cultural project to quickly buy us goodwill with the Meng leadership, because they're skeptical of outside actors and internally divided on the value of bothering with the south-western folks in the first place. Demonstrating value to their satisfaction is a labour of time we don't have.

Hanyi's work in the western Foundation can't reasonably bring in increased support for our summit project from either clan. We had a vote that could have made Hanyi's performances helpful for the summit, but we picked cooperating with Meng Diu in the southwest instead. Hanyi's work in southern Meng territory is mutually exclusive with her concerts marketing our summit efforts. It's unfortunate, but that's the hand we dealt ourselves.
 
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AbeoLogos said:
Hanyi's work in the western Foundation can't reasonably bring in increased support for our summit project from either clan. We had a vote that could have made Hanyi's performances helpful for the summit, but we picked cooperating with Meng Diu in the southwest instead. Hanyi's work in southern Meng territory is mutually exclusive with her concerts marketing our summit efforts. It's unfortunate, but that's the hand we dealt ourselves.
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Here is the Vote you are refering to ...

yrsillar said:
On the other hand, promotion in the capital… that could do a great deal for her. She understood what Meng Diu was doing, this offer made it clear that the woman was willing to help her and be done with it, but she was also open to further cooperation.

[] Open the southwest (Lesser boost in popularity for Hanyi, may boost Weilu Reformer support in long term. Bond 1 with Meng Diu)
[] Promotion in the capital (High boost to Hanyi popularity, no change in reformer support)
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Really? I for one read that as the exact opposite of what you are suggesting.

Cooperation is a two way system. We help Meng Dui with her south eastern problem and she knows the best way she can help us is political support. Even if the Meng are isolated they are still the oldest count clan and Meng Dui is that clan's representative in court and has been for literal centuries. She has connections. A lot of them.

Yes I Agree that the current vote should go to the central region and I agree with most of the points made for it.

But please don't point at votes in the past without quoting them. Not everyone goes back in time and checks the wording of the vote. And you make it sound like the vote back then was about support for or project yes or no. Witch it most definitely was not about.
 
Kirr said:
Here is the Vote you are refering to ...



Really? I for one read that as the exact opposite of what you are suggesting.

Cooperation is a two way system. We help Meng Dui with her south eastern problem and she knows the best way she can help us is political support. Even if the Meng are isolated they are still the oldest count clan and Meng Dui is that clan's representative in court and has been for literal centuries. She has connections. A lot of them.

Yes I Agree that the current vote should go to the central region and I agree with most of the points made for it.

But please don't point at votes in the past without quoting them. Not everyone goes back in time and checks the wording of the vote. And you make it sound like the vote back then was about support for or project yes or no. Witch it most definitely was not about.
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As a question of whether Hanyi's performances would be of direct relevance, it kind of was.

At the capital, it's Hanyi's direct efforts that would have influenced any take-up in support for the summit and surrounding issues among her audience. In the southern Meng lands, it's simply the commitment to the cultural impact of the performances over time that bought us Meng Diu's patronage in our other dealings. The immediate level of investment we put into it shouldn't really move the needle, since Meng Diu already supports the summit on its merits, at least the bits on non-aggression and surrounding cultural mythologizing we're engaging in for it. Plus, she knows we're big-ass busy.

I wasn't arguing the vote was a yes/no on advancing our summit aspirations, I was saying that it changed how Hanyi's performances fit into the equation. In the southwest, her actual performance doesn't get us more, in the short-term, than the idea of her performing there already has, and us schmoozing with the lay nobility in that area isn't going to boost support for the summit in ways that matter, for reasons I've already outlined.

That was the point I was trying to get across, apologies for lack of clarity.
 
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So I was in a deep wiki hole when I came across this: pykrete is a mixture of ice and wood pulp/shavings that has interesting mechanical properties that make it stronger/more resilient than ordinary ice. As we are getting ready to settle down and raise our own settlement the thought struck me that we have two third realm spirits that could work together using their wood and ice qi to make an impressive defensive wall for our level of advancement.
 
As I see it, there two main interpretations on which is the best approach for the summit in particular and our diplomatic effort in general to suceed.

One side thinks we should acquire an almost province-wide support, albeit passive support. The goal would be to move from individual regard (+1) to Mild Institutional approval (+2). At the very least, avoid trouble with a sort of positive inclined indifference (0, +1).
It's an effort to bring the Imperial Moderates towards us and away from the Conservatives. To not lock Ling Qi as an exclusive Neo Weilu supporter, but of the Emerald Seas as a whole.
As well as leaning into our role as Renxiang's spymaster by increasing our network into broader reach. Specially into the Jia and Diao conties, the Diao being the only counts with a negative impression of us and most likely to interfere and sabotage. See Hanyi's concert's incident.

The other side, myself included, thinks that securing active help from the groups we are directly working with for the foreseeable future takes priority. This is the point of view that takes preference in the prosperity of the fief itself beyond just the summit and the diplomatic effort.
It's the plan that consolidates us further in the position of Neo Weilu supporter, their representative and contact in Renxiang's court. Gaining more support from the Meng and Wang without completely snubbing the Imperial Moderates. We can still reach to them. Specialization versus Jacking.
It also considers that having a higher rep in our own area is the best way for them to accept tentative contact and commerce with the White Sky, and leaning into that before trying to expand to the rest of the province.

Both sides have plenty of valid points, so there isn't really a "wrong" choice here.
 
AbeoLogos said:
In the southwest, her actual performance doesn't get us more, in the short-term, than the idea of her performing there already has, and us schmoozing with the lay nobility in that area isn't going to boost support for the summit in ways that matter, for reasons I've already outlined.
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Hm, yes i can see your point. And having the option to socialise with the lower nobility in Xiangmen could be a boon for our project and could help. But the cost of that opportunity would have been a 0 on relationships with Meng Dui. I really don't think that would be a prize I would want to pay for an opportunity with uncertain outcome.
It COULD ( and that is a capital letter could in bold and underlined) help us with our project faster and provide support more tangible than good relations with a member of the court in Xiangmen.
But the long, and maybe even short, term possibilities of our "deal" with Meng Dui should give us more political capital. Especially if her faction gains traction and the oldest Count Clan in the ES gets more active.
 
Kirr said:
Hm, yes i can see your point. And having the option to socialise with the lower nobility in Xiangmen could be a boon for our project and could help. But the cost of that opportunity would have been a 0 on relationships with Meng Dui. I really don't think that would be a prize I would want to pay for an opportunity with uncertain outcome.
It COULD ( and that is a capital letter could in bold and underlined) help us with our project faster and provide support more tangible than good relations with a member of the court in Xiangmen.
But the long, and maybe even short, term possibilities of our "deal" with Meng Dui should give us more political capital. Especially if her faction gains traction and the oldest Count Clan in the ES gets more active.
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Oh, I'm perfectly happy with securing our fledgling partnership with Meng Diu, she's a very useful contact, I just think it's important to recognize the ways that the deal shifted the balance of our political board. In the short-term leading up to the summit, I consider the impact of Hanyi's performances in southern Meng territory to be "maxed out", at least as it relates to our diplo project. It'll take longer than we have for dividends to mature and allow Meng Diu to escalate her support from current levels.

In fact, I'm so happy about securing Meng Diu as a working partner that it forms the solid core of why I consider expanding feelers to the Central Valley the ideal approach, right now. I'd like to increase our chances of identifying political actors, individuals notable enough to actually become named members of the cast, that we can cut deals with. It's by no means a guaranteed result, even several "actions" down the chain, but we need to take these kinds of shots in the dark or we'll end up at the summit empty-handed.
 
AbeoLogos said:
Oh, I'm perfectly happy with securing our fledgling partnership with Meng Diu, she's a very useful contact, I just think it's important to recognize the ways that the deal shifted the balance of our political board. In the short-term leading up to the summit, I consider the impact of Hanyi's performances in southern Meng territory to be "maxed out", at least as it relates to our diplo project. It'll take longer than we have for dividends to mature and allow Meng Diu to escalate her support from current levels.

In fact, I'm so happy about securing Meng Diu as a working partner that it forms the solid core of why I consider expanding feelers to the Central Valley the ideal approach, right now. I'd like to increase our chances of identifying political actors, individuals notable enough to actually become named members of the cast, that we can cut deals with. It's by no means a guaranteed result, even several "actions" down the chain, but we need to take these kinds of shots in the dark or we'll end up at the summit empty-handed.
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Yes, with this I agree 100% and is in fact the reason why I am voting for the central region as well. It was just this bit in your post

AbeoLogos said:
We had a vote that could have made Hanyi's performances helpful for the summit, but we picked cooperating with Meng Diu in the southwest instead. Hanyi's work in southern Meng territory is mutually exclusive with her concerts marketing our summit efforts. It's unfortunate, but that's the hand we dealt ourselves.
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it makes it sound like the choice back then was a mistake and now we have to live with the consequences of a bad decision. That was the Part I was arguing against, and that the vote back then was a indeed good decision.
 
Kirr said:
Yes, with this I agree 100% and is in fact the reason why I am voting for the central region as well. It was just this bit in your post



it makes it sound like the choice back then was a mistake and now we have to live with the consequences of a bad decision. That was the Part I was arguing against, and that the vote back then was a indeed good decision.
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Ohh, I meant it was unfortunate from the standpoint of Hanyi prominence. Unfortunate for people who want to emphasize the importance of her performances. We kinda stuck her shows in a broom closet, as far as the leading narratives are concerned.

The choice could be seen as a mistake for some people with certain preferences, basically. Sound enough outcome, though.
 
[X] Focus your network building effort on the Central Valley (+1 to region rep on completion of the Hou Zhuang's gift project. 50% chance on completion of gaining a +1 rep boost with Thundering Hills or South River Jing region)
 
Adhoc vote count started by EternalObserver on Jan 27, 2022 at 10:06 AM, finished with 147 posts and 79 votes.
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