Praise-bullying in action!
Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)
- Thread starter yrsillar
- Start date
- Original Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
I personally like the the concept of getting concept XP from social interaction as it gives players something to discuss the merits of choices. Because it can put the mechanical benefits from XP gain in a specific concept at odds with the narrative benefit from learning about something from social interaction, and this makes the choices by the players come across as more meaningful imo.
Like it, should definitely hide some of the outcomes as like +? XP when you want to guarantee people vote for the actual substance and not meta-gaming.
kfrar
Aspiring Encyclopedia
I get the opposite takeaway from the issue you've highlighted here.
Like, if we were coming into this interaction knowing there was concept XP on the table but not knowing what it was, and we generally, say, didn't want Power at the moment (I don't think you're alone on that front right now), then that just gives us an incentive to spend our time picking away at the options to try and figure out which one makes which number goes up so we don't accidentally boost the bad number.
As opposed to focusing on who we actually want Ling Qi to be.
Plus, one of the whole points of shifting to Concepts as one of the main underpinnings of the mechanical system was to make that system less soulless, by ensuring that mechanics and character development actually tied into each other. So if somebody votes on a choice based on its concept because they want to explore that concept and increase the role it plays in Ling Qi's life, or because they don't want to increase the focus on the other concepts on the table...
Is there anything wrong with that motivation? I can hardly fault someone for caring about characterization during a social vote.
Lol Xia Anxi sliding away from that conversation as he expects Meizhen to unload onto the red python talkin ish about the White Serpents.
- Location
- United States of America
So, lots of fun thoughts here about retribution, crime, and punishment. Bai Lao Keung has an interesting view on the place of retribution and punishment, certainly, it seems to be vastly different than the Bai rulers. Extremely so.
The first thing I will point out is that, for all of Lao Keung's talk of cost and value, we aren't moving the discussion away to a view of crime/punishment as restitution model, AKA the model that seeks to compensate for the wrongs inflicted in some manner through punishment and levy of fines/work requirements. We are still firmly in the retribution model, the view that punishment should deter repeat behaviors as well as deter others from committing that same behavior. Which is the same model that the Bai seem to hold firmly to.
A couple of notes about Lao Keung's beliefs though, in the cost and value of pursuing the retribution. Firstly, it presumes that the retribution can be achieved, even if the cost is exorbitant. There is no discussion on what should be done when the retribution for the crime can not happen, for whatever reason. A peculiar, but likely wise, absence given Sun Shao being a large topic of discussion in the upcoming future. Lao Keung mainly focused on, at least as it appeared to me, the idea that if retribution is too costly for the value of the deterrence it would produce, then such retribution shouldn't be pursued. Along with, of course, having the retribution target the appropriate wrong-doer and not punishing those who had no part in the original crime.
The issue, of course, comes along with something that wasn't discussed at all. Not the value of the deterrence but rather the consistency of the punishment. And this is not that punishment is appropriate or equivalent to the wrong-doing, rather that punishment is consistently meted out when the wrong-doing occurs. It is in that consistency where most deterrence lies, although the Bai seem to take the other approach of having draconian punishments as well, and which was not really discussed. Since deterrence comes from consistently punishing wrong-doing, failing to do so because the cost outweighs the immediate deterrence gained then not only is the deterrence not gained for the wrong-doing, but also future efforts at deterrence are undermined as well.
Which puts the Bai in a peculiar spot. They get the most out of current efforts of deterrence and future efforts of deterrence by being consistently retributive. However, the immediate cost of that retribution may outweigh the current value of deterrence. But by not being consistent in their retribution, they weaken their own policy of retribution down the line. This really is only a major problem if the Bai's whole system of rulership and relations with others relies on retribution. Unfortunately, it seems to be.
The first thing I will point out is that, for all of Lao Keung's talk of cost and value, we aren't moving the discussion away to a view of crime/punishment as restitution model, AKA the model that seeks to compensate for the wrongs inflicted in some manner through punishment and levy of fines/work requirements. We are still firmly in the retribution model, the view that punishment should deter repeat behaviors as well as deter others from committing that same behavior. Which is the same model that the Bai seem to hold firmly to.
A couple of notes about Lao Keung's beliefs though, in the cost and value of pursuing the retribution. Firstly, it presumes that the retribution can be achieved, even if the cost is exorbitant. There is no discussion on what should be done when the retribution for the crime can not happen, for whatever reason. A peculiar, but likely wise, absence given Sun Shao being a large topic of discussion in the upcoming future. Lao Keung mainly focused on, at least as it appeared to me, the idea that if retribution is too costly for the value of the deterrence it would produce, then such retribution shouldn't be pursued. Along with, of course, having the retribution target the appropriate wrong-doer and not punishing those who had no part in the original crime.
The issue, of course, comes along with something that wasn't discussed at all. Not the value of the deterrence but rather the consistency of the punishment. And this is not that punishment is appropriate or equivalent to the wrong-doing, rather that punishment is consistently meted out when the wrong-doing occurs. It is in that consistency where most deterrence lies, although the Bai seem to take the other approach of having draconian punishments as well, and which was not really discussed. Since deterrence comes from consistently punishing wrong-doing, failing to do so because the cost outweighs the immediate deterrence gained then not only is the deterrence not gained for the wrong-doing, but also future efforts at deterrence are undermined as well.
Which puts the Bai in a peculiar spot. They get the most out of current efforts of deterrence and future efforts of deterrence by being consistently retributive. However, the immediate cost of that retribution may outweigh the current value of deterrence. But by not being consistent in their retribution, they weaken their own policy of retribution down the line. This really is only a major problem if the Bai's whole system of rulership and relations with others relies on retribution. Unfortunately, it seems to be.
The Sun have not been punished but rewarded for their actions. I do not think he is talking about the current conflict with the garden, especially since the perpetrators are still alive.
This is more what he is talking about.
We don't really do enough of them for that to be a concern barring tripling socials with no reduction in cultivation
TimEd
Meteor maker
That just means that gaming conversation will have more of an effect.
Maybe if the conversation choices comtinue to come at times where the narrative sides are made apparent, those who want this or that narrative choice can conterbalance those voting for xp.
- Location
- foraging for beans
A huge part of this quest is about guiding LQ's cultivation, and from Green on we've been developing a philosophical concept for LQ to embody. The end goal of cultivation is to become an inhuman force of nature after all, and having the cultivation mechanics begin to intrude into the social part of the game in increasingly holistic ways builds towards that. I like it.
kfrar
Aspiring Encyclopedia
So do you have an issue with people voting based on XP, or voting based on Concepts?
Because while there were plenty of people who voted last update because they liked Motion, I didn't see a single person talking about experience breakpoints or mechanical cultivation goals.
And while I can see why the latter might be offputting, the former is just people voting based on what they want to see and who they want Ling Qi to be.
TimEd
Meteor maker
Technically on the xp.
I too am someone who voted partially due to Motion, and I didn't care about breakpoints because I knew overflow is still rewarded, and we're still fairly early on in the Concepts stage that any xp overflow is likely to reach that additional breakpoint.
Edit: To be clear, I am fine with the xp added to conversations to make the mechanics of everything denser. I just want to caution everyone, on how it could break down.
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Sirrocco
Pedantic
I remember commenting about how pleased Cai Shenhua must have been about Ling Qi's reaction to Chu Song last year.
I'd imagine that if anything, she likes this reaction more.
I mean, sure, "You have it anyway." had a certain stark brutality to it, but "I grew up among those who you would wish to call your people, and none of them want you back." is a special kind of gut-punch that literally no one else could have delivered... nd then he followed it up by trying to make her better, and shape her to fit the Glorious Cai Collective.
I think... that's going to be a very real strength of the Cai in the next generation or so. We see it in Gan. We see it in Xiao Fen's little friend. We'll see it in others. The Cai follow their own ideals seriously, and their own ideals have them treating the little people well. Sometimes, little people grow up and become cultivators... and suddenly, the fact that your little people welcome and value you, and feel personal loyalty and appreciation to you and your rule starts to matter in a pretty real way.
Man. Han Jian got serious last year.
Well, his victories are no longer coming at the expense of people he personally cares about. That undoubtedly helps.
- Location
- Denton, Texas
I'd really enjoy if Debating the Way with people would be a way to incentivize philosophical talk and give us conceptual exp while maybe adding relationship points in a neutral way. As in a way that any cultivator would jive with, instead of spending an action fishing when we have no real interest in it, just as an example. Just a thought I had
And he's STILL managing to be nice about it even while demonstrating he could have taken her head in round 0.
If the mechanic is an in-world thing every conversation will be a contest for XP which is very bad imo. The characters in this world already gradually lose their humanity with their cultivation, don't make speaking another aspect of it.
"You crying! Ha ha, I win 23 points. Now how can I make my Xp bloated mother very disappointed?"
"Alright! Now I can just discard my love of Xin to get... on second thought nevermind"
- Location
- The Space Between
I'm very glad that Han Jian has been able to bloom in the absence of his snarled social circle.
Chu Song man.
What's interesting is the contrast to the two retainer beat downs.
When LQ beat her down it was with apathetic ignorance of the Chu, and a sincere disinterest in a failed clan whose talented scion could muster nothing with which to touch her. She didn't care, and in time nobody else would either.
Gan Guangli cares.
Where Chu Song could claim that LQ is ignorant of the Chu and was perhaps a nobody scrounging for scraps of power, or scraps of approval from her superiors for continuing to punish the Chu, Gan Guangli knows
and cares
he delivers brutal lines of pity and appeals to change while easily disabling her ability to fight. It's not Ling Qi's ability to totally avoid all of Chu Song's attempts, it's a strict meeting of strength to strength and Gan Guangli overpowering her. He talks of the legacy of the Chu, how none mourn their passing and how their desire to resurrect dead ways nobody wanted was what got them destroyed unmourned in the first place.
We'll be delving into the liminal legacies of the Li sooner than the Chu, but I almost feel like Chu Song and Yu Nuan would have gotten along way back when. Key difference being that we've spent more time with Yu Nuan and really practiced-what-we-preach with her. We were truly, sincerely convinced in the better tomorrow that Cai Renxiang believes is possible. We have some regret in the harshness of our words in regards to Chu Song, but not the intent behind them. We could be convinced to care about Chu Song, the individual. We aren't going to be convinced to personally care about a dead clan that nobody mourns.
Like. It's weird because one of our close friends is from the Li. Yu Nuan has joined up, and we never judged Su Ling for the actions of her mother. I think Chu Song may end up working alongside Li Suyin in the Sect Military, and if she bumps into Yu Nuan perhaps she'll be able to see a different path for herself now that she's arrived in the Upper Sect. I hope so, to be honest <3
Chu Song man.
What's interesting is the contrast to the two retainer beat downs.
When LQ beat her down it was with apathetic ignorance of the Chu, and a sincere disinterest in a failed clan whose talented scion could muster nothing with which to touch her. She didn't care, and in time nobody else would either.
Gan Guangli cares.
Where Chu Song could claim that LQ is ignorant of the Chu and was perhaps a nobody scrounging for scraps of power, or scraps of approval from her superiors for continuing to punish the Chu, Gan Guangli knows
and cares
he delivers brutal lines of pity and appeals to change while easily disabling her ability to fight. It's not Ling Qi's ability to totally avoid all of Chu Song's attempts, it's a strict meeting of strength to strength and Gan Guangli overpowering her. He talks of the legacy of the Chu, how none mourn their passing and how their desire to resurrect dead ways nobody wanted was what got them destroyed unmourned in the first place.
We'll be delving into the liminal legacies of the Li sooner than the Chu, but I almost feel like Chu Song and Yu Nuan would have gotten along way back when. Key difference being that we've spent more time with Yu Nuan and really practiced-what-we-preach with her. We were truly, sincerely convinced in the better tomorrow that Cai Renxiang believes is possible. We have some regret in the harshness of our words in regards to Chu Song, but not the intent behind them. We could be convinced to care about Chu Song, the individual. We aren't going to be convinced to personally care about a dead clan that nobody mourns.
Like. It's weird because one of our close friends is from the Li. Yu Nuan has joined up, and we never judged Su Ling for the actions of her mother. I think Chu Song may end up working alongside Li Suyin in the Sect Military, and if she bumps into Yu Nuan perhaps she'll be able to see a different path for herself now that she's arrived in the Upper Sect. I hope so, to be honest <3
Yeah when I say 'a lot' I really only mean 10 or so people, which probably isn't enough to influence most votes, but it's still like 20% of the votes for that option. I personally am in support of the whole dialogue to concept points thing, but Ithink min-maxing is something we should be mindful of.
I think that transparency is for the best, because people can make informed decisions - if they want the concept XP bad enough to ignore the actual topic of conversation, then they'd do it whether or not the type of XP gained is shown.
All hiding the type of XP does is give more power to people who can be very convincing about what kind of XP might result from a given vote, and build up unwarranted expectations if they are wrong but convinced themselves. See the infamous Stab Yourself In The Heart For Power case.
And its not like removing the XP would do anything but shunt the problem elsewhere either. We'd just be facing the issue of having social activity having nothing to do with cultivation instead.
All hiding the type of XP does is give more power to people who can be very convincing about what kind of XP might result from a given vote, and build up unwarranted expectations if they are wrong but convinced themselves. See the infamous Stab Yourself In The Heart For Power case.
And its not like removing the XP would do anything but shunt the problem elsewhere either. We'd just be facing the issue of having social activity having nothing to do with cultivation instead.
al103
Grumpy Russian Bear (SV edition)
- Location
- Russia, Krasnoyarsk
*looks sideways* And I think at least some perpetrators of Empress' mother assassination are still Bai Elders... "Forget" is a good word, but those old grudges are not in fact old yet.
Can someone explain this?