Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
[X] Ask him what he thinks of repentance and forgiveness then, where is the line? (+1 to Motion)

LK: Allowing repentance is a strong tradition in my family.

LQ: … what.

LK: what do you mean "what"? I can prove it. Bai Asmodai make them repent. *points to random scrub*
 
"Do you know what the root of corruption is, Ling Qi?" her liege asked back.

"...Greed, I suppose," Ling Qi replied, crossing her arms. She had an inkling of what was going to be said.

"Avarice plays its part," Cai Renxiang said absently. She lowered her hand into the crib, and the baby grasped at her fingers, the last of her cries trailing off into gurgling curiosity. "But no. Family is the root of corruption. A man pays an examiner to grade his son kindly. A woman speaks to her sister in the Ministry of Law and has a childs indiscretion swept under the rug. A man and his brother look out for one another and quash all competition for their positions. For some it is pure greed. But for most, it is the desire to put their family ahead."

Ling Qi frowned, stepping up beside her liege. "Is that truly corruption though? That is just… people working as they do. Of course you want to improve things for people you care about."
That sounds like the kind of conclusion a very hurt teenager might arrive at.
Its superficially true, but if you dig any depth in the flaws are going to be severe.

...also Sun Shao is literally the Devil to her.
Her breath caught in her throat as she caught a flash of light out of the corner of her eye. Like a knife blade ghosting against her throat. The ringing chimes turned, innocently glittering in the dim light.
Hi sentry wind chimes/fan!

"It is, and that is corruption can never be truly stamped out. You may cut the branches, fell the trunk, burn the leaves, but the root remains. It begins with little things, but it grows and grows,"
That is never going to work for dealing with corruption except making it better at being sneaky.
Corruption is driven by incentives.
What is best for the nation must be aligned most of the time with what is best for the family, and what is best for the individual. Collective punishment for instance, is one way to force the right behaviors - whatever bonds the individual has that they'd break the law to aid, they'd work with the law to protect

You need to offer benefits for obedience, not just punishment, and for punishments, they must be enforcable. Where the problem is simply that its impossible to detect an offense, then making it an offense is only giving people practice at evading the law.
Of course, having enough benefits to offer is another matter entirely, you could tax heavily and give back heavily in services through economies of scale, but then at the local level it becomes optimal to divert the flow of resources to local concerns rather than state.

Cai Renxiang's ideal ruler is an enlightened being with no attachments or cares beyond ruling perfectly...but what definitions of perfection would such a being follow?
"This is, I think you are right to say, being human. One who aspires to rule cannot have this. To rule with such personal biases is an abrogation of the responsibilities of your position"
This is like becoming the Administrator equivalent of a Sword Immortal.
Great for everyone wielding them, terrible to be.
Ling Qi frowned, choosing to change tacks. "The Scholar Kong often compares the ruler to the head of household, their responsibilities and duties are much the same. Reciprocal obligation is the root of good rulership as much as personal virtue."

For a moment her liege actually smiled. It was a thin brief thing. "Your memorization has improved Ling Qi. But, I do not think the Scholar's words make your point.In your conception, his wisdom is most certainly designed around what you call clan."

"...You can find wisdom in a work even if you don't agree with the author," Ling Qi huffed.
Well, Renxiang certainly recognizes the concern here. Its cute that Qi isn't good at it but tries anyway.
"What is the obligation of a sibling Ling Qi, in your own words," Cai Renxiang asked.

"You offer them affection, tutelage, and protection," Ling Qi said, thinking of Biyu. "...You help them avoid your own troubles."

Cai Renxiang hummed to herself in response, watching the baby in the crib. "I am known as cold and impersonal, and my duties will demand distance and travel, what affection can I offer? I am a mere young mistress, whatever my title, what tutelage can I, who can not even fully comprehend Mother's Arts, give which would exceed what my Mother will arrange?"

She paused, but continued before Ling Qi can respond. "And… of the things which could threaten a daughter of the Cai, what protection can I offer?"

Ling Qi swallowed, whatever she was going to say silenced by those whisper quiet words. Her mind filled with a child screaming, and eyes of glass in an artificial face, so unsettling like her liege's. She had no retort. None that would not stick in her own throat as a lie. "You are not cold," she said quietly. "And I do not think distance is truly so great an obstacle."

Cai Renxiang didn't answer.
Affection - Cai Renxiang is trying not to feel. Its not very effective.
Tutelage - Can't address this one until Renxiang actually acknowledges that there are things worth learning that Shenhua can't teach alas.
Protection - Guiding a junior through the pitfalls of interacting with a White is a form of protection itself. Shenhua is a force of nature, but just because you can't fight a blizzard doesn't mean knowing when to duck into a cave and when to go out isn't going to work.
"Renxiang," Ling Qi said quietly. "You haven't answered my question."

"I do not know, Ling Qi," Cai Renxiang said tersely. "I do not even know how to evaluate that matter. But it is irrelevant. What I want cannot be what I do. The Emerald Seas is more important than Cai Renxiang. That is what it means to rule well. I cannot act against that."

Ling Qi felt a twinge of sadness. "I advised you once before that you do no one any good if you break yourself."

"And I have heard you, my advisor," Cai Renxiang said, straightening up. Her fingers escaped the baby's grasp. "But I will not stumble over the line from maintenance into indulgence. I understand and accept your point of view, but the responsibility I have been born to… and that Tienli has been born to, is heavier than what you bear, even now."

Renxiang spoke with poise and conviction, but Ling Qi was not fooled. She was hurting herself, even if she was wholly sincere.

Cai Renxiang backed up a step from the crib, and formally bowed her head. "Your Elder Sister greets you Cai Tienli, may you bring much pride to the Cai clan in the future."
I guess thats going to be Renxiang's story arc challenge now that it has some to light.
The rail under her forearms was warm, heated by the formations.The noise of the tournament grounds a buffer against her thoughts. The rest of the evening had been spent in a while of minor meetings and politicking, supporting her liege as they worked to drum up more than lukewarm acceptance of their task. It had felt more tiring than usual. Mostly because of the question in the back of her thoughts.

Where did you stand, when you knew you couldn't fulfill your duty to family?
Its a good question to ask now, before you actually have to make those choices.
She winced as a body went sprawling in the tournament grounds below. Gun Jun knocked from his feet for the eighth time. Lu Feng tossed him about like a child, and there was little he could do. Even Ling Qi felt some sympathy as the young man rose, shaking to his feet, despite the obvious tremors. She suspected he had fractured something on that last throw.

"He should yield," Lao Keung said from beside her. "There is no honor in hurling yourself face first into a wall."

"I do not know about that," Ling Qi said absently. "In battle certainly, but this is a tournament. Showing persistence has its virtues."

"Showing pride," the young man beside her snorted.

"...Pride is the luxury of the strong," Ling Qi admitted. "But, who is it, who wishes to admit being weak?"

"A living man," Lao Keung said.

"I admit some sympathy to both points,' Bai Meizhen admitted from the seating behind them. "It is somewhat distasteful, to give the Sun so much opportunity to gloat, but to admit loss is…. Difficult."

"But unavoidable in the end," Cai Renxiang said.

There was a thunderous crash from the arena, Lu feng had grown bored, and finished things with a single strike, sending Gan Guangli's friend crashing through the trunks of the trees they had been battling amidst with a contemptuous flick of his wrist. It amade the whole battle more sour that he likely could have done so at any time instead of toying with the younger disciple.
Well...at least he got to show his stuff?
Its not like he's even doing any torturing.

But that he's not even trying particularly hard seems like Lu Feng got power leveled hard
Below the false environment dissolved and Lu Feng bowed toward the crowds, or rather the box where Liling and the other visitors from the Western Territories were seated. Leaving the arena he passed gan Guangli. There was an exchange, but Ling Qi couldn't hear it.
A challenge or a taunt?
"If our hosts will forgive the question. What crime did the Chu clan commit?" he asked idly, peering down.

"Refusal of a full county census and accounting of military assets," Cai Renxiang said. "And assault on a provincial official. The inspector sent to perform the census returned without his tongue or eyes. Later, treason, when they refused the second order."

"Such bold defiance. I cannot imagine how they thought such a thing would end for them," Meizhen said, a subtle sneer finding her lips. In the arena below Gan Guangli and Chu Song squared up.
You know, they might even have gotten away with it if they just refused the full execution of the census. Maiming the messenger is too much though.
The way they did it was a direct refutation of ducal authority, and theres no way they'd avoid retaliation.
"The consensus is that they believed that her Grace's hold on the province was weak, despite all her personal might," Cai Renxiang said. "That the other counts were merely waiting to be rallied against her reforms."
You had to wonder here. Did they think her reforms would be so offensive to the other counts?
Or did they like it under the Hui's system?
"After all, if one duke had been cast down, what protected this one?" Lao Keung mused. He earned a sharp look from Xia Anxi.

Meizhen smiled thinly though. "It is natural that new strength will be tested. And just as natural that those who overestimate themselves will be crushed."

"That is the way of the world," Lao Keung agreed. "Still, a shameful waste. The Elders of Chu were truly blind fools."

"Is it though? Such a weasel would have always been poised to bite the neck of the province, left unmolested," Xia Anxi said haughtily. "Better that they be fools than wise."
Double layered conversation here, seeing as the Bai lost their Duke too.
Bold talk.
"True, what of this one then? You punished her for defiance the year before, and your fellow is poised to do so now," Lao Keung asked. "When do you believe it will be enough?"

",,,, Even now, for all her pain, she lives above all but a few in the province." Ling Qi said cooly. "She has been allowed into the Inner Sect, on the back of her talent. I do not think it is fair to say that she is still being punished by anyone but herself."

"An interesting perspective," Lao Keung said, smiling wryly. "Yes I suppose from the dust, even a hut must seem like a manor."

Ling Qi glanced his way, he looked pensive. Below, the match was beginning.
Theory of economic relativity!
 
CRX's entire Way is built around doing what her mother could not, adding kindness where Shenhua was harsh or cruel.
I disagree

I think Shenhua wants Renxiang to be a successor that is better than her, as per the interlude about our new tutor.

Renxiang is attempting to be "The Perfect Ruler". Renxiang is emphatically not adding Kindness, she's removing harshness/hatred. She lacks the "Hates the Hui" part of her Way that would find joy in cruel treatment of the Hui.

Kindness is based on interpersonal connections, which inherently favors those one knows. You can attempt to be Kind with everyone, but look at Ling Qi's Way. You wouldn't have the deeper personal fidelity without knowing them further. Thus, you'd need to keep everyone at the same Bond to retain fairness. The easiest way to accomplish impartiality is Bond 0 with everyone no exceptions. Anything else is susceptible to Corruption.

Which is how Renxiang has been so unable to understand the Arts of Cai Shenhua. Shenhua seems to actually be notably kind and caring for a White that's normally an absolutely inhuman force. This is, in my opinion, because Cai Shenhua cultivated a Way of Self and so her White soul is still willing to follow the reasonings and ideas of the human side of Cai Shenhua that is the mask she wears.

by contrast, Renxiang wishes to strip away and discard her own humanity. She wishes to obliterate the Self and all the Corruption that things such as Family and Connections bring. This would almost certainly cause Ego-Death, and actual death, but if she survived she'd likely be a hollow tool. An automaton that is incapable of being corrupt. The flaw being that, as a tool, she's only able to be activated and used. Which would allow the Corrupt to use her for their own ends, thus causing Renxiang to fail her own desires by having ejected her own desires in the pursuit of some sort of Ascetic Ideal.



No. For Renxiang to add Kindness she must retain Human Desires and Human Connections. Normally this would be impossible, but the Way of Self seems to allow for one to "cheat" the system a bit by collecting the bits of cast off humanity and having them assist in the decision making of the Inhuman Being that results from cultivation. I think. Speculation of course, but I think a reasonable guess
 
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by contrast, Renxiang wishes to strip away and discard her own humanity. She wishes to obliterate the Self and all the Corruption that things such as Family and Connections bring. This would almost certainly cause Ego-Death, and actual death, but if she survived she'd likely be a hollow tool. An automaton that is incapable of being corrupt. The flaw being that, as a tool, she's only able to be activated and used. Which would allow the Corrupt to use her for their own ends, thus causing Renxiang to fail her own desires by having ejected her own desires in the pursuit of some sort of Ascetic Ideal.

The thing is, Renxiang is wrong about her Way. She is like someone trying to become a sword cultivator but recoils at violence: the path she thinks she is on will only lead her astray and, if she's stubborn enough, she will find that it will eventually just end with her having nothing to show for it.

The perfect emotionless ruler is not her Tao.
 
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She should study the Way of the Jedi.

Love and Compassion without Attachment.

Though hmm, she's not devoted to a Way of purely personal enlightenment there... She does arguably need Attachment to the Emerald Seas and the Empire... Or does she? If the best thing to do for the people were to let them go, would that not be the correct choice? 🤔

... I wonder if we could seduce her into meditating on some kind of grinning moon art about freedom? Probably not, but perhaps Freedom could be an interesting subject for LQ and her to discuss sometime on this subject?

To an extent LQ rejected absolute freedom because she wants Attachment even as she fears its chains. Renxiang would likely reject it on grounds of the importance of being held to Duty and Law, but at the same time both have a desire for partial freedom. For Renxiang that's not being bound by personal Attachments. For Ling Qi she has deep moral struggles here. On one hand, she desires Attachments for happiness and security. Otoh, she fears being constrained by those attachments in a way that would threaten her pursuit of happiness and security. One could suggest a need to work out when it is appropriate to let things go - but she also fears being someone who would sacrifice their attachments for their own sake and considers that immoral.

 
Ling Qi felt a twinge of sadness. "I advised you once before that you do no one any good if you break yourself."

"And I have heard you, my advisor," Cai Renxiang said, straightening up. Her fingers escaped the baby's grasp. "But I will not stumble over the line from maintenance into indulgence. I understand and accept your point of view, but the responsibility I have been born to… and that Tienli has been born to, is heavier than what you bear, even now."
"You were… not wrong. If I damage myself unnecessarily in the course of my duty, this is also a disservice to those I am responsible for," Cai Renxiang stated coolly. "So… maintenance of the self."

Ling Qi stepped back as Renxiang did, letting the saber fall to her side. "I'm glad, Lady Renxiang. You haven't answered though. Evasion is unlike you."

"I chose to make a selfish request," Cai Renxiang said. For a moment, the girls normally overbearing presence shrank. "Gan Guangli will be accompanying us on this journey [to the Polar Nation]."
Remember that this is a continuation of the conversation where Renxiang did act on her own wants. Guangli was and is good for her mental health and is the only one who she can talk to about philosophy and exactly what it is she's trying to shape her Way to be. And she called it selfish, called it maintenance, when it really makes her better. Tienli is the same, someone she could share each others burdens with and help each other be better. But instead Tienli is in the middle of a knot of Renxiang's trauma and cultivation, and Renxiang makes an insufficient argument for why she is of no worth to her sister and why she herself can't act on her own wants.
Ling Qi frowned, stepping up beside her liege. "Is that truly corruption though? That is just… people working as they do. Of course you want to improve things for people you care about."

Her breath caught in her throat as she caught a flash of light out of the corner of her eye. Like a knife blade ghosting against her throat. The ringing chimes turned, innocently glittering in the dim light.
And it is really worrying, this path Renxiang is on. This is her Domain Weapon, integrated with Purity, as core to Renxiang's self as Loneliness is to Ling Qi. And it's like a blade to the throat of the one person trying to help Renxiang most. This is the road she's walking, one where she isolates herself and bears this burden alone. But that's not enough because we have seen how Renxiang's trauma keeps her from being the good ruler we all know she could be. The end of this path is Renxiang as just another Shenhua and a Cai of inhuman tyrants. And it's a path that I don't think Ling Qi can follow her to the end of. I don't know what failure would have meant here or if the Heart Demon would have been a good thing, but if this is a success then we need more of them. Ling Qi needs to keep challenging Renxiang in this because she needs and deserves better.
Then, there was the faint ringing of bells, and Cai Renxiang was bathed in light. Her face an imperious and featureless mask of liquid metal and light and her gown empyreal armor forged from radiance. She looked daunting, inhuman, perfect, and serene.

She was so very alone.
 
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The thing is, Renxiang is wrong about her Way.

The perfect emotionless ruler is not her Tao.
You can't be "wrong about your Way"

You choose your Way, it can only be pursued by choice. If she chooses to carve a path of "Emotionless Unattached Ruler" as she perceives that as a Way to become perfectly immune against Corruption. As she pursues that Way she will carve away all of her Self that doesn't fit that.
Imperial Cultivation is Spiritual Sacrifice/Mutilation.

Her "Way" is flawed for her goal of "Perfect Ruler" for the same reason that any inhuman Tool may be immune to Human Corruption, but can be wielded by the Corrupt for the purposes of the Corrupt. In addition, a Ruler without any animating Way or Self is merely a Tool to be Used. Like a Puppet Emperor, or a hollow statue waiting to be filled. In addition, there is no objective Perfection. There is only fleeting, temporary, subjective Perfection.

I would add that "The Jedi" were considered an incredibly flawed organization until Disney started hacking at the canon however it wished. Even within the prequel triology though, you can see the deep flaws of Jedi in their ability to "govern".



The Jedi were very hands off with The Senate. They allowed The Senate to perform as a political body that governed the Republic, and they were simply the Martial Caste of The Republic. One of their weaknesses was low numbers, but they didn't sufficiently question nor investigate The Clones as a fighting force that arrived from a planet that had somehow been struck from The Archives. Their lack of attachment or passions made them quite accepting and tolerant, including a high tolerance for the scheming and politicking of others.



Ultimately, this is why a belief system as dysfunctional and pathetic as "the Sith" is able to consistently field a few individuals that are able to spearhead movements that punch in The Republic's weight class. Their passivity prevents them from taking action without orders. The orders must come from a council of passive Jedi, or from the political Senate. Thus, the corruption of The Senate ensured the inability for The Jedi to act until Senator Palpatine was well entrenched enough to spin the slaughter of The Jedi into a political success for him. To spin the failed "Mandalorians" and their fool creed into great heroic protectors more loyal and powerful than the Jedi Order. To spin Anakin into a powerful Sith that would be able to hunt the remaining Jedi without risking himself to it.
 
You can't be "wrong about your Way"

The whole point of the Tao (Way) is that you are basically guaranteed to be mistaken about it. The best you can do is to keep an open mind and follow where your life goes because, if you don't, life will eventually goddamn wreck you. On the other hand if you manage to be in harmony with it you can potentially move mountains. Cultivation is traditionally the process of trying to uncover this and shape yourself into harmony with it through all the meditation and pills. This is why Lao Tzu keeps saying stuff like "a bowl is must useful when it is empty": by keeping an open mind you can adapt to your changing circumstances instead of futilely trying to adapt them to you.

Yrs has mostly deconstructed this idea in Destinyverse (inheriting much of said deconstruction from Xianxia as a whole), with people being forced onto particular paths by the society they live in. However this has still been repeatedly pointed out to be a poor decision by those in power and we see the fallout from this all the time, such as with Han Jian, Fan Yu, Gu Xiulan, and so on and so forth.

Edit: Our peers are young Taoist immortals and we are talking about the Tao, referring to stuff from the Tao Te Ching shouldn't be strange.

Here's some more
Lao Tzu said:
A good traveler has no fixed plans
and is not intent upon arriving.
A good artist lets his intuition
lead him wherever it wants.

Is Cai Renxiang really doing this? Or is she trying to reject what her intuition tells her in order to preserve her own preconceptions formed under her mother's influence?
 
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The whole point of the Tao (Way) is that you are basically guaranteed to be mistaken about it. The best you can do is to keep an open mind and follow where your life goes because, if you don't, life will eventually goddamn wreck you. On the other hand if you manage to be in harmony with it you can potentially move mountains. Cultivation is traditionally the process of trying to uncover this and shape yourself into harmony with it through all the meditation and pills. This is why Lao Tzu keeps saying stuff like "a bowl is must useful when it is empty": by keeping an open mind you can adapt to your changing circumstances instead of futilely trying to adapt them to you.

Yrs has mostly deconstructed this idea in Destinyverse (inheriting much of said deconstruction from Xianxia as a whole), with people being forced onto particular paths by the society they live in. However this has still been repeatedly pointed out to be a poor decision by those in power and we see the fallout from this all the time, such as with Han Jian, Fan Yu, Gu Xiulan, and so on and so forth.
right but that idea is also deconstructed in "Journey to the West" in which Sun Wukong is only able to alleviate his suffering through achievement of Buddhist enlightenment, not through any "Way" one cultivates actively as a "Way" to achieve "Enough Power"

And that's the crux of it, "Power" as a means to itself. Adaptation is iffy, only having a potential to align with Power. Others seek Power in a broader, more applicable, more common context and are able to find Power through harmonizing partially without attaining enlightenment or finding the end of their "Way".

Which is what "Journey to the West" is responding to. All of these partial harmonies on the "Way" can grant Power yes. However, it asks "a Way to where?" If the destination is "Power" then you'll never stop suffering as there is no limit. Only through the Buddhist determination of a destination can one find freedom from suffering. Which is, of course, a different destination. The destination of "Freedom", rather than "Power".

From the Buddhist perspective, I don't believe anyone can be "Wrong" in their own "Way". The Self makes decisions and is free to choose as it wishes. Even if the outcome isn't what the Self wanted, that doesn't make the choices that led to that outcome "wrong". They're just choices that were made. One must choose to detach from The Self to alleviate suffering, but those that choose to suffer aren't wrong in doing so. They're just choosing to suffer with their Freedom.

Which is why I don't think you can be "wrong" about a Way you cultivate successfully. You can be ineffective, or off target, or self-destructive, but I don't believe you can just be "wrong" about it without the "Way" becoming dysfunctional to the point it lacks power. Like. If your subjective interpretation of an objective harmony is "wrong" that means you find no power in that interpretation, right? Can there even be any power in something that fails to harmonize on any level?

I suppose I'm saying that I don't believe it's possible to Cultivate an idea that fails to harmonize on any level, which is what I'd qualify as "Wrong". There are probably degrees of harmony, which would denote greater Truth or being further from the Truth. I definitely don't think Renxiang's current Way is close to being True. I wouldn't call it "wrong" outright though, because she clearly has enough harmonies to be as powerful as she is.
 
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[X] Ask him what he thinks of repentance and forgiveness then, where is the line? (+1 to Motion)
 
right but that idea is also deconstructed in "Journey to the West" in which Sun Wukong is only able to alleviate his suffering through achievement of Buddhist enlightenment, not through any "Way" one cultivates actively as a "Way" to achieve "Enough Power"

There is more to Taoism than a polemic written by some Buddhists about a rival religion.

If Taoism is about power, why does Lao Tzu say
Lao Tzu said:
It is because he does not contend
That no one in the world can contend against him.

That seems to be making a very different claim than "do enough cocaine and you can shoot lasers from your eyes!" As such I think its reasonable to say that whether someone can indeed shoot eyelasers is not really a vindication or condemnation of their understanding of their place in the world
 
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There is more to Taoism than a polemic written by some Buddhists about a rival religion.

If Taoism is about power, why does Lao Tzu say


That seems to be making a very different claim than "do enough cocaine and you can shoot lasers from your eyes!" As such I think its reasonable to say that whether someone can indeed shoot eyelasers is not really a vindication or condemnation of their understanding of their place in the world
my point isn't that Daoism/Taoism cannot have a "Way" that leads to a place other than "Power". I'm talking more from the perspective of Xianxia as a genre, in which Taoism/Daoism is often shallowly understood as a vector to achieve "The Power to Defy The Heavens/Gods"

which is basically what "Journey to the West" is saying. I don't know if it was a polemic against Daoism/Taoism itself, I know that it's certainly a polemic against the reckless and endless pursuit of Enough Power as if only you had Enough Power you would be able to achieve Freedom from suffering. I also know that "Journey to the West" had enough traditional Power Fantasy elements to appeal and be popular with non-Buddhist audiences. I don't know if it's fair to say it's a total condemnation of Daoism/Taoism, as the two religions aren't necessarily exclusive with one another, yes? Only the specific "Way" that wants to achieve enough Power to escape suffering, because there will never be enough Power for that (from a Buddhist perspective)
 
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Her "Way" is flawed for her goal of "Perfect Ruler" for the same reason that any inhuman Tool may be immune to Human Corruption, but can be wielded by the Corrupt for the purposes of the Corrupt. In addition, a Ruler without any animating Way or Self is merely a Tool to be Used. Like a Puppet Emperor, or a hollow statue waiting to be filled. In addition, there is no objective Perfection. There is only fleeting, temporary, subjective Perfection.
I agree that her way seems like it's currently taking her somewhere unpleasant, but I don't think this is the primary flaw from the perspective of fulfilling her objectives.

Turning herself into a perfectly objective law enforcement robot would make her a bad leader even without external sources of corruption because it'd divorce her from the perspective of her people.

Maybe she could dictate, but if she becomes something alien to the people she's trying to govern it will almost certainly lead to issues form the clash of fundamental perspective.

It'd be like what happened with the Hui's slow detachment from their subjects (or in a way, the Weilu) only worse because she'd be drifting off mentally while grasping harder physically and socially.

Pretty sure we shouldn't point that pattern out if we want to keep our head though.
 
Liminal Explorations: Weilu Wonder
Liminal Exploration: Weilu Wonder

Breathing deep, Zi Rougang tore open the seams between material and liminal. Appearing before him in a swirl of colors, the portal to the liminal realm appeared, hanging tantalizingly close to the ground, but never quite touching the swaying blades of grass. In a step, he was through, to a world awash in vibrant colors and passing emotions. The grove he stood in was now gone, instead becoming a field of rice paddies, each stalk half-submerged in water shimmering with colors beyond count. It was quiet here, peaceful. Emotions and dreams that normally ran rampant through the liminal calmed themselves here or avoided the place altogether. A few fairies danced amongst the rice, checking the burbling quiet dreams that nested just below the still water. Peace and stillness tried to impress upon him, but a flex of will shook off the feelings. He was here with purpose, with ambition. On his last foray into dreams and impressions, something had caught his eye. Over near the northwestern part of the Wall, or at least its correlation in the Dream, he had seen… something nestled deep within a neverending canyon. A structure, built in an old-style, with nothing but stone and emptiness surrounding it. Peculiar, unusual. Which meant potentially profitable. So, with a smile on his lips, he willed himself to move.

Streaming past him, the liminal realm seemed to be streaks of colors and emotions. Joyous celebrations, sorrowful wakes, spurts of passion, and strangling thorns of contempt. All swept past him on the trip to where this mystery lay. Some nightmares tried to grab at him, to pull him into twisted sections of the liminal. But their claws and hooks found no purchase on his will, their fearful cries wafting away like steam above a kettle. Then, in the space between one step and the next, he was there. He stood on the edge of a cliff, small roots of grasses and bushes jetting out into the open air. Below him, for as far as he could see, was inky blackness. Swirls of color tried to seep into it, only to lose themselves in the expansive nothingness it held. But it was not the cliffside or the expanse below that held his interest. It was the mountain he faced. Down and to the right, there stood a collection of lanterns illuminating an old wooden bridge and a modest manor. That was his goal.

------------------------​

It took a bit, to find a way to the bridge itself. Mostly following what looked like a thin goat trail that switchbacked down the cliffside. Conveniently lit at the turns by small flickering candles. The dark nothingness pressed down upon him, now that he had descended far enough, but he kept it at bay. The light in on the bridge provided some small comfort, but what helped, even more, was the merry sounds within the manor itself. Which mean this had some memory of celebration and delight lodged within, which was better than despair and grief in his experience. Especially since memories of long-gone celebrants were less likely to try and hunt him dead. Cracking open a smile and stretching his limbs Zi Rougang walked across the bridge with a steady confident gait. He could feel some eyes in the shadows, some type of dogs it felt like, but they didn't bark or growl, simply letting him cross without confrontation. As he approached the wooden doors, they opened silently, letting him fully take in the view within.

Twirling acrobats clothed in rainbows and silks, dancing courtiers swirling around each other in intricate motions, servers carrying dishes piled high with drinks and food. Slipping through the jostling crowd, he found spaces at the edges reserved for those of more quiet and stoic depositions. Nodding to them, and receiving nods in return, he continued to survey the party. At the top of a dais, seated on a throne of what seemed to be wood grown into shape, sat a portly bald man dressed in sharply tailored robes of green and black. Rings of gold and silver adorned his fingers and a goblet of something steaming was next to him. Most interesting, however, was the shadow the man unnaturally cast over the party. A shadow with a crown of horns which the man distinctly lacked. However, the man seemed deep in his drinks and was gesticulating wildly at a man and woman who had approached him.

Turning away from the party, Zi Rougang noticed a variety of closed doors, guarded by idly shifting guards. One door screamed importance though. It was across the party from him, guarded by two guards, and decorated with images of vines, mirrors, and antlers. Something was behind that door, something important. Something valuable. Sliding his way through the party once again, he grabbed a drink from one of the servers. Once he neared the door, he casually tossed the glass to the ground, away from him but close enough to the guards for a reaction. As they investigated the shattering sound and disruption to the endless party, he approached the door, produced his trusty lock-breaking formation, opened the door a crack, and slid through the open space before closing it behind him.

Before him stood a dark hallway, lit only by dim flickering candles on the ground. It stretched onwards, far longer than the building could hold by outside appearances. Walking forwards, he noticed that there were no other doors to this hallway, no way in or out but the door towards the party. Which was… concerning. Just as he was about to turn back though, the end appeared. A lit lantern standing upon a pedestal. It was crafted from wood so dark it seemed to reject light, and the flame it held was a reddish gold. A feeling of weight and importance seemed to radiate from the light, and Zi Rougang knew that it was potent. If brought into the real world it would last, and someone would pay handsomely for the artifact.

As he reached out to grab it, a sharp pain made itself known in his back, all the way to his heart. Turning, he saw a creature, a mockery of the human form given antlers for a crown and knives for fingers. It was the same shape and form as the shadow the party's host had cast. From the creature's horns dripped blood, not his own, he was sure, but of countless others this reflection's original had slain. It was from the spirit's hands that Zi Rougang's blood dripped down onto the ground.

"Well," the spirit murmured, "it seems we caught another rat at our party. We'll feed you to the dogs, they need a good meal before the hunt tomorrow."

Zi Rougang tried to break free, to spin and fight, but apathy and weariness crashed against him. He needed… needed to close his eyes… just for a moment.

A/N: @yrsillar another omake for the omake throne! Given that the Weilu seemed to be masters of the liminal, this idea came to me that they may have left other fragments from their time as rulers of the Emerald Seas scattered in hard to find places of the liminal, sort of like how we found the Nightmare of the Burning Grove. This person's finding of one such fragment... did not go his way though. I hope you enjoyed the read!
 
Radiant Serpent Part 2
The sea folk were not weak opponents. The Bai knew this, though their great foes were the barbarians of the jungle. Always the violet caste kept an eye upon the shores and the shallows. They were not regular raiders but they were opportunistic, taking after the few ships which sailed from their ports. So Xiao Wen was not surprised when the four meter tall man with the grey skin and jagged teeth of a shark spun to face him before his sea spray dampened boots touched the deck of the ship. Nor did he falter when the trident of coral in the man's hands spun, deflecting his palm strike, nor when the tines sought his chest.

Yes, the Sea folk were worthy opponents, and Xiao Wen would treat them appropriately. The tines of the trident jabbed through his chest, dispersing the afterimage already dissolving in the rain, and he was then inside the man's reach. One blow pulverized his knee cap with a wet crunch audible over the storm, a rising knee met a falling torso, and a needle of black fire entered his stomach through the meridian that coiled there. His body spasmed, the weapon fell from his hand, and a third strike punched through his throat and out the back of his neck in a shower of bone and blood.

Xiao Wen stood impassively as the giant collapsed behind him, unruffled save for the droplets of blood which fell from his stiffly held fingers, swiftly washed away by the rain. His eyes flicked to the rest of the battlefield, taking in all who were present. He stood on the upper deck, surrounded by sea folk who were all reacting, turning toward him away from the foreign sailors they had been menacing. Dawning realization shown upon their twisted faces.

Below, on the lower deck a shockwave erupted, blasting away the rain as the sea folk's champion and the many limbed warrior who seemed to lead this foreign ship clashed in a blurring whirlwind of weapons outside the miniature palace which occupied the ships center. Of the three great warriors of the sea folk, two clashed with the warrior below while the third, who he had already studied was up here, hefting a great stone staff the size of a small ships mast. He bellowed an imprecation in his barbaric tongue, and Xiao Wen felt the sea under them surge, grimly he began to draw upon the shallow trickle of Shen which he had cultivated.

Bai Guzhen arrived on a tide of ink and seaspray. A tremendous liquid tail that glittered wetly in the rain rocked the ship and swept the deck deck, drawing screams as the victims struck found themselves bitten, clawed and mauled by the horde of deep sea horrors that swum beneath the surface, and halted only with the echoing boom of the sea lords stone staff striking it with enough force to splinter the deck beneath their feet. His Mistress towered there, meters off the ground, imperious and unflinching. Her golden gaze turned to Xiao Wen.

"I said that I was the head of the spear, Xiao Wen," she said harshly.

"If the Captain wishes to arrive first, perhaps she should consider eating less of the daily catch," Xiao Wen said blandly as their foes began to get back up.

"Insolent," Bai Guzhen sniffed. "To think that you would speak to me so Xiao-"

The head of a massive staff crushed her skull in a liquid spray, filled with a law of weight and pressure.

A hand twisted into a claw lashed out, seizing the staff's head before it could be pulled back, and from the churning ink where Bai Guzhen's head had been, tendrils, pincers and jaws erupted, snapping shut around the weapon. There was a deep and guttural laugh. A slash formed in the churning mass of flesh that rose around the entrapped weapon, and it filled with teeth.

"BUt thIs FIRst," she hissed.

Xiao Wen smiled, and turned to the sea lord's supporters.

***​
The Sea Folk were worthy opponents, and that was why Xiao Wen did not feel any surprise when their presence shortly caused a rout. Their war doctrine was opportunism, and they valued the lives of their men. Three warriors of equal realm to overwhelm the enemies leader was a calculation swiftly changed by their presence. Only his captain, with her meditations in the abyss of lake Hei had any ability to chase them back into the deeps.

Still, they had reaped a toll, he had cut down half a dozen warriors at the peak of the third realm, and his Captain had badly wounded the third lord before he had leapt back into the sea. Well within his estimates. Unfortunately, he had also predicted their current situation.

They stood on the blood stained deck of the foreign ship, surrounded by frightened but resolute men in elaborate armors. The great twelve armed warrior's weapons now bristled in their direction. Captain Guzhen maintained her mantle, the dark waters that formed a coiling tail raising her to the eye level of the giant.

He spoke in a foreign tongue, crossing two of his spears over his chest, a sword held in his third right hand gestured toward the rail of the deck and the tiny silhouette of their own ship.

"I am not merely going to leave," Bai Guzhen replied imperiously. She crossed her arms over her chest, the silhouettes of leviathans and slain seafolk swimming across her skin in ink. "I need to speak with who rules you warrior."

She repeated her demand, first in the tongue of the Xuan, and then that of the Sea folk, and finally, that of the Garden.

With each attempt, the giant blue skinned warriors' brows furrowed further and the grip on his weapons tightened. Not an untoward reaction to the words of the Red Garden, Xiao Wen thought idly, observing the men around them. He began to plan his movements for the combat brewing. His Captain could be so impetuous.

The warrior spoke again, this time in a tongue which sounded similar to that of the Red Garden, but different in cadence. He gestured more fiercely to the ships rail, and her Captain's frown grew more fierce. The waves tattooed on her skin began to churn.

The clear chime of a tiny bell rang out, cutting through the sound of the dispersing storm. In front them, Xiao Wen saw the eyes of the giant widen, and he immediately stepped to the side and knelt, exposing the front of the miniature palace of gold and jewels. The front of the structure was a red curtain of rich cloth, dry despite the storm and blood, like that which would hide the inside of a nobles palanquin.

The curtain drew aside, and Xiao Wen nearly found himself on his knees. A soft golden light emanated from within, like the rays of the dawn, lighting the deck of the ship. Small golden steps lead up to the tiny throne of of jewels within. There sat a small figure. He could not say if they were man or woman, child or adult. Their skin was the color of gold, their scalp shaved bare. Their soft and serene features held no expression, and their small hands sat folded in a lap wrapped in only a loose skirt the color of cinnabar.

It was all Xiao Wen could do not to reel, it felt as if chunks of himself were missing. He… who was he? He had been thinking of something only a moment ago, but now it seemed beyond his grasp. There was only the light and peace.

But he was Xiao, and he stood with his White Serpent. The primal terror which shrouded her was to him, the warm blanket of home and creche. He let out a hissing breath as he straightened himself and realized what was missing. This being's very presence had nearly stripped him of all violence, all knowledge of and ability to act upon it.

The little being on the throne's head tilted very slightly to the side.

"An interesting trick, why did you not turn it upon your foes?" Bai Guzhen asked, quirking an eyebrow.

"Violence sullies the path to ascension, even to intervene. The children of the sea are also of the realm of beasts. Their minds are beyond enlightenment in this life."

Xiao Wen felt surprise at the swift response. Their voice was soft and childlike, soothing as a lullaby. It also spoke in no language he could discern. Their lips moved, but his eyes hurt when he tried to follow the formation of the sounds. Instead they seemed to imprint directly upon his mind.

"It is interesting to me that you are not," said the being. "Who are you, children of the White Terror?"

"Ah, you recognize Grandmother Serpent in me?" Bai Guzhen said, a smile creeping onto her lips. "How interesting."
"Though the Hungering Abyss has slept for more than two thirds of this kalpa, the echoes of her hunger ring in the deep places yet," they said. "Twice I ask, who are you?"

"I am captain Bai Guzhen, scion of the Bai clan, who are as you guessed, the descendants of Grandmother Serpent. Who is it that I speak too?"

"My mortal name is no more. My title is Enlightened of the Dawn Flower Path. You may call me Daya. What is it you wish for, Bai Guzhen."

"I am on a journey of discovery," Bai Guzhen said imperiously. "I wish safe berthing without need to alarm or harm the people of your country, and the right to stay and study your land. Do you rule here Daya? Do not think I cannot sense the power sleeping beneath your skin."

"I am a seeker of ascension, The realm of rule if that of warriors," Daya replied calmly. They looked down at the bowed head of their guardian. "It would be better to introduce these to your father, than risk further violence, would it not Arthish?"

"The enlightened speaks wisdom," The man said, finally raising his head.

"Good, I must purify myself now, see to our guests," the 'Enlightened' said, the curtain falling back across and cutting off their light.

For a long moment, Bai Guzhen and the warrior Arthish, stared at one another, and then on some unspoken signal, both stepped back. Her Mistress dissolved her mantle, and the man shrunk, his weapons and additional arms dissolving into motes of light, save for a single jeweled sword at his hip. His skin retained its dark blue tinge though.

There were stranger signs of spirit blood, Xiao Wen supposed. He remained on guard even as the ships other sailors began to stand down.

"You may follow us to the harbor of Arakhat," said Arthish. "But I will still request that you return to your own ship."

"How is it you may speak to me now?" Bai Guzhen said, resting a hand on her hip. "I am quite sure you could not understand me before."

"Before the Enlightened, barriers are removed," he said. "They merely granted me this knowledge, learned from you."

Xiao Wen felt a surge of suspicion, if that person could take such knowledge so easily, what else had they learned in that exchange?

His Captain smiled confidently though, showing no unease. "Hm, well, in that case, how long is the remaining journey."
"If your ship is able, it will take two days," Arthish replied, with a hint of challenge.

"My crew and ship are up to any voyage," Bai Guzhen smirked. "Come Xiao Wen, let our companions clean and repair their decks."

He nodded silently, following her as she leapt from the ship, his feet touching down briefly on the water before following her next leap into the sky.

"What a lethal man," her captain mused into the rushing wind.

"He seemed pressed quite hard," Xiao Wen said. "He may have even lost without us."

"No, I do not think so," Bai Guzhen mused. "He was holding back for some reason, perhaps for the sake of that creature on the throne. There is destruction in his blood."

She chuckled. "I should not mind overmuch if he offered me a foeman's head on his spear."

"Captain," Xiao Wen hissed, scandalized as they ran briefly along the waves.

"Oh do lighten up First Mate," she chuckled, turning a smoldering look his way. "You know I love you most."

Xiao Wen stiffened and murmured something unintelligible. His Mistress was far too bold, speaking words like that in the open air.

They landed on the decks of the ship, and by the time they did, there was no sign of fluster or flirtation. "Tell me, Xiao Wen, what did you sense from that creature on the throne?"

He frowned. "Overwhelming serenity and passivity, I regret to say that it nearly overcame me. Why do you call them so, they seem only a powerful cultivator with a strange way."

He might expect such from any other Bai, but his Mistress was always strange in her polite way of referring to outsiders.

They strode across the decks, giving the sailors their new orders. "We will need to train your senses further. I call them that because there was no trace of humanity there. A spirit of some sort most likely. But… I find myself interested."

He had mistook a spirit for a human? Shameful, Xiao Wen thought. What interests you, my Captain?"

"The closest comparison to what I felt from that 'Daya' was what I felt the day Mother allowed me into the vaults, and I beheld a single gleaming spirit stone which shone with all seven colors of the rainbow," Bai Guzhen said, gazing out toward the ship of the foreigners.
Xiao Wen sighed, knowing that look. He had a feeling that they would be here for a very long time.
 
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Renxiang's argument is interesting in that it's easy to feel that it's a flawed one, but much harder to present a solid counterargument pinpointing what exactly is wrong with it. Obviously trying to prune all familial bonds since they are perceived to invite corruption via nepotism flat out doesn't work while trying to rule a people. Cai Renxiang even mentions this herself.
But she argues that such bonds cannot be held by one in a ruling position, and as such that she should not want to have them. In fact, it seems like wanting for something personal like family would be so anathema to Rexiang's concept of rulership that it would immediately cause a heart demon simply by the act of wanting a sister. She stives for absolute perfection, to such an extent that she does not even allow herself the very thing which she has conceded to be a neccesity for humans to have.
Even Shenua allows herself some modicum of personal indulgence, and in fact focussed on her desire to completely destroy the Hui. Both of these can be perceived as flaws from Renxiang's point of vieuw, since it concerns personal desires and wants and could thus possibly invite corruption. So in many ways it seems that to Renxiang becoming a perfect liege is to cease being human completely. There is no room for personal wants, only for obligations. Hence for Ling Qi this acutely felt like a metaphorical blade to her throat, since Qi's way is to a large extent build around her own and her families wants and desires.

What then is wrong with Renxiangs position on rulership? At first glance having a perfectly unbiased ruler without personal desires beyond being as just as possible would be good. But this would completely distance her from the very people she is trying to rule, and total unbiased perfection is, even for Rexiang, a difficult thing to achieve. Now consider this: somehow Renxiang manages to circumvent the distancing issue by accurately listening to her advisors and rationalising likely desires and wants of her subjects using her reasoning and logic. And let's say that she also manages to achieve a complete lack of bias. Total perfection as a ruler, no personal corruption possible. Would she make for a good ruler?
From a functional standpoint, probably yes. But from a progression, Shenhua-esque point of vieuw she would have failed utterly on a fundamental level. Because such a ruling system would be completely reliant on Renxiang, and Renxiang alone. Without her at its center it flat out does not work, and thus its stagnation is complete. And this is what makes Renxiang's form of rulership so dangerous: in order to perpetuate it, she would need something, or someone to replace herself eventually. The cycle begins again, with Renxiang's heir suffering through the exact same hardship and suffering that she herself went through to get to this point, preparing the next cultivator for a position at the very core of the functioning of society. But what is but one soul, when sacrificed for the good of the masses?

Only it does not end there. If this process continues forever, someone will be sacrificed for the good of all again, again, and again, until there are an endless number of cultivators who have forced themselves to discard their own will completely in order to rule and serve all. Or possibly even worse, slowly the whole of society is transformed into a more "pure" functioning form without corruption, where no one wants or desires for anything and everyone only functions and obeys their obligations without any will or agency of their own. Such a thing would be completely rid of all corruption, but it would also be a very bleak future to live in.
 
"Tell me, Xiao Wen, what did you sense from that creature on the throne?"

He frowned. "Overwhelming serenity and passivity, I regret to say that it nearly overcame me. Why do you call them so, they seem only a powerful cultivator with a strange way."

He might expect such from any other Bai, but his Mistress was always strange in her polite way of referring to outsiders.

They strode across the decks, giving the sailors their new orders. "We will need to train your senses further. I call them that because there was no trace of humanity there. A spirit of some sort most likely. But… I find myself interested."

He had mistook a spirit for a human? Shameful, Xiao Wen thought. What interests you, my Captain?"

"The closest comparison to what I felt from that 'Daya' was what I felt the day Mother allowed me into the vaults, and I beheld a single gleaming spirit stone which shone with all seven colors of the rainbow," Bai Guzhen said, gazing out toward the ship of the foreigners.
Xiao Wen sighed, knowing that look. He had a feeling that they would be here for a very long time.
Interesting seems like they cultivate pure Qi which was said to be very harmful in the imperial system. I wonder if they are related to the pure one from the Weilu religion. They both seem to be based off of Buddhism...
 
Renxiang's argument is interesting in that it's easy to feel that it's a flawed one, but much harder to present a solid counterargument pinpointing what exactly is wrong with it
It's actually quite easy once you realize the problem is the basic premise: familial links are not the basis of corruption. It's easy to see why someone raised in their culture might think so but the obvious counterpoint is that a childless unmarried orphan is not incapable of corruption.
Interesting seems like they cultivate pure Qi which was said to be very harmful in the imperial system. I wonder if they are related to the pure one from the Weilu religion. They both seem to be based off of Buddhism...
To me it just sounded like they cultivated peace and serenity and were of the Prism realm. That said it does seem like a Buddhist approach would be best suited for even trying to attempt to cultivate true [null] affinity
 
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Such a thing would be completely rid of all corruption, but it would also be a very bleak future to live in.
Your position implicitly assumes that her end state would actually work if she achieved it.

The process of cutting out her ability to form "corrupting" bonds would distance her fundamentally from her subjects.

I think at best living under her government would be like being ruled by an enthusiastic alien anthropologist.

They've read all the papers on how human society works, and have some great theories on how they should be put together, but lack experience or personal understanding of some very basic aspects of the system they're working with.

How long would it take for her to make a mistake, or push too far with something, and end up taking a position intolerable to the people beneath her?

I don't think advisors alone could save things at that point, because at the end of the day the decisions would be in her hands. She's have to perfectly determine when best to listen to them on a subject that she'd deliberately cut away her ability to engage with.
 
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