Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

Sirrocco · Oct 10, 2021

Valmond said:
And if we ditch him, Luo will send someone else who will probably be picked for the purpose, instead of a random ass who happened to be in the right place.

Thing is... I'm not sure this is true.

The Luo are super-insular and isolationist. They're also on the other side of the Duchy from everything we're doing. If we decide we don't want this guy, they might just... not send anyone. Do they actually care enough about this to send someone else if the first guy doesn't make it? After all, as far as we can tell, he's trying to set this deal up on his own. Our first add-on got introduced by the applicable Countess, I believe. Wang Cho pretty clearly has the backing and interest of his family in our connection. Do the Luo even really care? This particular Luo is putting in some effort to reach out to other groups. That's what he was failing to do with Qingling, and it's what he's trying to do here. How much support does that sort of thing really have among the Luo?

But realistically, I'm mostly realizing that he hasn't actually made his pitch yet. We should at least let him make his pitch. I mean... if the offer's good enough, then I'd be willing to forgive... quite a lot more than he's actually done, really. Part of the problem is that I look at him and say "Well, what good are you?" and none of the answers I get back speak to a healthy or mutually beneficial working relationship.

Valmond · Oct 10, 2021

Sirrocco said:
Thing is... I'm not sure this is true.

The Luo are super-insular and isolationist. They're also on the other side of the Duchy from everything we're doing. If we decide we don't want this guy, they might just... not send anyone. Do they actually care enough about this to send someone else if the first guy doesn't make it. After all, as far as we can tell, he's trying to set this deal up on his own. Our first add-on got introduced by the applicable Countess, I believe. Wang Cho pretty clearly has the backing and interest of his family in our connection. Do the Luo even really care? This particular Luo is putting in some effort to reach out to other groups. That's what he was failing to do with Qingling, and it's what he's trying to do here. How much support does that sort of thing really have among the Luo?

But realistically, I'm mostly realizing that he hasn't actually made his pitch yet. We should at least let him make his pitch. I mean... if the offer's good enough, then I'd be willing to forgive... quite a lot more than he's actually done, really. Part of the problem is that I look at him and say "Well, what good are you?" and none of the answers I get back speak to a healthy or mutually beneficial working relationship.

I think they will send someone, largely because they will want to not be blindsided by what the duchess is doing.

Neshuakadal · Oct 10, 2021

Valmond said:
I think they will send someone, largely because they will want to not be blindsided by what the duchess is doing.

What we are doing and what the duchess is doing are not the same thing. The Luo can stay informed of what the duchess is doing while ignoring our project if they wanted.

veekie · Oct 10, 2021

memoryofglory said:
We can deal with him. There's no need to demand the Luo replace him. There's also no need to keep voting to help this guy and see more of him.

Pretty much my stance as well. I think his way of doing things is fundamentally incompatible with ours(to the point that actually embracing it will likely spawn a Heart Demon), but that doesn't mean we need to do anything about it, he exists, we have some degree of understanding of who he is as a person and thus how he'd react.

Pretty much standard for a business contact.
I'd be very leery of onboarding him to the diplomacy project, but thats precisely because we understand enough of him that he really shouldn't be in the first few attempts, at least unless we want to be signaling at cross purposes across an already fraught culture and language barrier.

So like...keep him at arms' reach maybe? With the option open that he might learn better down the road, or someone more compatible turns up.
We don't need to be friends with everyone, see the Diao, we just need to avoid being enemies.

Wiggy · Oct 10, 2021

Honestly, I'm pretty surprised by the level of vitriol for this dude. Like, he was fairly forgettable to me. Maybe it's because I read through most of the story in one go instead of having to linger on the bit where he was being a jerk, I dunno.

Shinr · Oct 10, 2021

This update convinced me that LZ's brand of Empire/Celestial Peaks inspired diplomacy and worldview is something that will cause more trouble than bring benefits in the south.

JohnnieBoy123 · Oct 10, 2021

Wiggy said:
Honestly, I'm pretty surprised by the level of vitriol for this dude. Like, he was fairly forgettable to me. Maybe it's because I read through most of the story in one go instead of having to linger on the bit where he was being a jerk, I dunno.

People react strongly to pushy suitors. A fair number of people immediately wrote him off as someone to interact with as soon as we found out he was continuing to pursue Qingling over her objections.

He's also shown himself to be a mildly abrasive person who has a habit of annoying the people around him. Meanwhile there's been basically nothing to counterbalance those poor impressions.

Taken together there's both broad dislike for him and deep dislike for him.

TimEd · Oct 10, 2021

Like was said by many already, he's "just" mercenary. Incompatible to the cicle of friends LQ has woven around herself, but that is all. So let's just see him as he is, which is an abbrasive guy and assess whatever actions he takes next with that in mind.

Wait and see as before, but with much better contextual data.

Valmond · Oct 10, 2021

How long should we wait and see?
We have waited, we have seen, and at no point has he shown any signs of being anything more than what we thought he was.
We are not forced to give him what he wants, we do not have to keep giving him more rope, we are not obligated to help him reach his ambitions, and it sure as hell is not our job to somehow teach him be a better person.

I'm not saying we need to go out on somekind of roaring rampage of revenge against the guy, just, don't welcome him into our kinda important and sensitive project.
Luo can cough up someone else, or if they can't, then they did not care all that much anyway and Luo Zhong would probably not have been of any use.

Braidtugger · Oct 10, 2021

Valmond said:
We have waited, we have seen, and at no point has he shown any signs of being anything more than what we thought he was.
We are not forced to give him what he wants, we do not have to keep giving him more rope, we are not obligated to help him reach his ambitions, and it sure as hell is not our job to somehow teach him be a better person.

This?

Valmond said:
I'm not saying we need to go out on somekind of roaring rampage of revenge against the guy, just, don't welcome him into our kinda important and sensitive project.

Is nowhere the same as this. Letting him be our Luo contact doesn't oblige us to help him reach his ambitions, or make him a better person.

Honestly, I think people initial impression is colouring people's impression is too much. I don't understand why that initial gathering made so many people's hackles raise up. I went back and read that bit, and I will not hold it against him. Why? Because I believe that Luo Zhong believes that if he were in Ling Qi's situation, that's how he would want to be introduced to a group of his peers.I said before that his main problem is a lack of empathy for others, and as far I can see that's all it is, just based on an in-group/out-group dynamic.

He's hardly the worst sort we will have to interact with as a retainer of CRX? Like are people in thread really saying that unless someone wants to be our good friend and/or is not friendly with our friends, we wouldn't retain them as a contact or associate with them?

Valmond · Oct 10, 2021

Braidtugger said:
This?

Is nowhere the same as this. Letting him be our Luo contact doesn't oblige us to help him reach his ambitions, or make him a better person.

Honestly, I think people initial impression is colouring people's impression is too much. I don't understand why that initial gathering made so many people's hackles raise up. I went back and read that bit, and I will not hold it against him. Why? Because I believe that Luo Zhong believes that if he were in Ling Qi's situation, that's how he would want to be introduced to a group of his peers.I said before that his main problem is a lack of empathy for others, and as far I can see that's all it is, just based on an in-group/out-group dynamic.

He's hardly the worst sort we will have to interact with as a retainer of CRX? Like are people in thread really saying that unless someone wants to be our good friend and/or is not friendly with our friends, we wouldn't retain them as a contact or associate with them?

Letting him be our Luo contact is us helping him reach his ambitions.
He is not here from the kindness of his heart, those we bring in will rise with us, and Luo Zhong knows it, he wants in because he wants to profit from us.

Yes, we will have to deal with worse people, so what? We don't have to deal with him.

memoryofglory · Oct 10, 2021

Braidtugger said:
This?

Is nowhere the same as this. Letting him be our Luo contact doesn't oblige us to help him reach his ambitions, or make him a better person.

Honestly, I think people initial impression is colouring people's impression is too much. I don't understand why that initial gathering made so many people's hackles raise up. I went back and read that bit, and I will not hold it against him. Why? Because I believe that Luo Zhong believes that if he were in Ling Qi's situation, that's how he would want to be introduced to a group of his peers.I said before that his main problem is a lack of empathy for others, and as far I can see that's all it is, just based on an in-group/out-group dynamic.

He's hardly the worst sort we will have to interact with as a retainer of CRX? Like are people in thread really saying that unless someone wants to be our good friend and/or is not friendly with our friends, we wouldn't retain them as a contact or associate with them?

The party does not fucking matter. Seriously, can you all stop reducing all the opposing arguments to 'the anti-Luo guy camp is butthurt about that party?' It both trivializes the actual disgust people feel over his pushy courtship attempt and completely ignores anyone trying to bring up issues that come from these more recent updates.

And those two Valmod quotes aren't really different things. Letting him be our Luo contact by default is his current ambition and we have no real reason to help him obtain that. If his clan elders ask us to take him along then I'm fine with sucking it up for politics, but I have no intention of sending any signs that could be mistaken by them as us wanting him to be their point of contact post-Sect.

JohnnieBoy123 · Oct 10, 2021

Braidtugger said:
Letting him be our Luo contact doesn't oblige us to help him reach his ambitions, or make him a better person.

What do you think him being our Luo contact involves?

When I say we should have a Luo contact, I mean for the mission. This will inherently mean that said contact is part of it, that's the job we're asking the Luo to have someone fill. We have no need for a Luo contact outside of that context because the mission will be our lives for the next few decades.

Braidtugger · Oct 10, 2021

memoryofglory said:
The party does not fucking matter. Seriously, can you all stop reducing all the opposing arguments to 'the anti-Luo guy camp is butthurt about that party?' It both trivializes the actual disgust people feel over his pushy courtship attempt and completely ignores anyone trying to bring up issues that come from these more recent updates.

And those two Valmod quotes aren't really different things. Letting him be our Luo contact by default is his current ambition and we have no real reason to help him obtain that. If his clan elders ask us to take him along then I'm fine with sucking it up for politics, but I have no intention of sending any signs that could be mistaken by them as us wanting him to be their point of contact post-Sect.

I do sincerely a lot of the dislike is foundational on that initial impression. If he had made a good impression on the thread back then, we would be much more willing to look past his actions afterwards or at least give him more chances.

Valmond said:
Yes, we will have to deal with worse people, so what? We don't have to deal with him.

And if the thread doesn't want to deal with someone like Luo Zhong now, why will we want to deal with anyone worse in the future? Will we keep rejecting every person that Ling Qi and thread dislikes? That's not how to politick.

JohnnieBoy123 said:
When I say we should have a Luo contact, I mean for the mission. This will inherently mean that said contact is part of it, that's the job we're asking the Luo to have someone fill. We have no need for a Luo contact outside of that context because the mission will be our lives for the next few decades.

Ok, semantics here, but I took ambition to mean something greater than just letting him be our Luo point of contact. "reach his ambitions?" I think I take that to mean more than just Luo Zhong gaining profit from being that contact.

JohnnieBoy123 · Oct 10, 2021

Braidtugger said:
And if the thread doesn't want to deal with someone like Luo Zhong now, why will we want to deal with anyone worse in the future? Will we keep rejecting every person that Ling Qi and thread dislikes? That's not how to politick.

If its in our power to, why shouldn't we? It won't always be so, we are in no position to turn away Xia Lin (though we do get along with her) and the imperial observer is well beyond our power, but we do have some power and it makes sense to use it to shape the team we are in to be easier for us to work with.

if Gan Guangli just did not get along with someone and asked for them not to be invited, that would be reasonable (assuming passes his test).

CRX should be building her team for the diplomatic mission to minimize interpersonal conflict within it. There are political realities that will intrude but Luo Zhong is nowhere near that important to do so.

memoryofglory · Oct 10, 2021

Braidtugger said:
I do sincerely a lot of the dislike is foundational on that initial impression. If he had made a good impression on the thread back then, we would be much more willing to look past his actions afterwards or at least give him more chances.

And if the thread doesn't want to deal with someone like Luo Zhong now, why will we want to deal with anyone worse in the future? Will we keep rejecting every person that Ling Qi and thread dislikes?

Ok, semantics here, but I took ambition to mean something greater than just letting him be our Luo point of contact. "reach his ambitions?" I think I take that to mean more than just Luo Zhong gaining profit from being that contact.

Okay, you can sincerely think that, but that doesn't make it any less annoying when you only call out the party as the source of us not liking him. For my part I was fine with the party and wondered why everyone was making such a big deal out of it. And every time he's been on screen since he's steadily lost more of my goodwill.

'If we don't deal with him now we'll never want to deal with anyone like him.' Is bullshit. The thread will deal with such people if they actually have something to offer us that's worth putting up with them. Luo Zhong doesn't and using his vague unlikableness as a positive argument for why we should keep him around is silly.

Braidtugger · Oct 10, 2021

JohnnieBoy123 said:
If its in our power to, why shouldn't we? It won't always be so, we are in no position to turn away Xia Lin (though we do get along with her) and the imperial observer is well beyond our power, but we do have some power and it makes sense to use it to shape the team we are in to be easier for us to work with.

Look, when a better Luo comes along, I am perfectly fine with ditching Luo Zhong (unless he gets some cheat that makes him white in 200 years). But I don't see disliking someone as good enough reason to ditch any contact who could be useful, let alone a count-level contact.

memoryofglory said:
'If we don't deal with him now we'll never want to deal with anyone like him.' Is bullshit. The thread will deal with such people if they actually have something to offer us that's worth putting up with them. Luo Zhong doesn't and using his vague unlikableness as a positive argument for why we should keep him around is silly.

Being an in into the Luo is surely worth more something? I am making the assumption here that we will receive resources, either political or material making this connection.

memoryofglory · Oct 10, 2021

Braidtugger said:
Look, when a better Luo comes along, I am perfectly fine with ditching Luo Zhong (unless he gets some cheat that makes him white in 200 years). But I don't see disliking someone as good enough reason to ditch any contact who could be useful, let alone a count-level contact.

Being an in into the Luo is surely worth more something? I am making the assumption here that we will receive resources, either political or material making this connection.

'An in with the Luo' isn't actually worth much right now. Pretty much every count clan is going to want to stick someone in our project to keep an eye on CRX, even if they don't give a damn about the project itself. If we don't specifically bring him along they'll volunteer another representative. If they don't then they're on the opposite side of the province and probably the least relevant count clan to our immediate interests. If we ever need to actually make connections with them of our own volition we can always repeat our Golden Fields strategy from the last tournament and get an introduction from a scion of one of their prominent viscount families (Alingee) who we have a much better relationship with.

It's not that this guy has zero stuff to offer, he just doesn't have enough that we can't just feasibly get some other way. He's worth putting up with, but not actively seeking him out.

Tasoli · Oct 10, 2021

More to point if he has such mercanery approach why do we need him in our social circle specifically? We can pay him what he is worth if we need him. Especially since including him doesn't seem to something he wants to pay with either fitting in or offering something else therefore it is not that important to him so there is no point in bringing him.

If he does offer something fo gettin an in I will re-evulate. Untill then hard no from me. There is no point wasting our time on him when it makes no difference to him and we can use that time more productively.

Mr.Kittens · Oct 10, 2021

People are failing to see Lou Zhong's utility, both for the project and for LQ as a person.

For one, his views of community, family and relationships is diametrically opposed to LQ's. This is a great boon. Together they will cover each other's blind-spots. Putting aside all the family connections, he will intuitively understand the transactional elements and she the emotional ones. He'd be good insurance against LQ getting taken advantage of from that angle.

Two, his Way could be used to sharpen LQ's insights of community. Sixiang mentioned that accepting some of his insights would spawn a heart demon. This is good. It means we can use him to make our Way more robust. Now is the time to examine weaknesses in our understanding and remedy them. Most of the empire works on an "obligation" model of family; should we bury our heads in the sand instead of facing this reality? His insights would make for an excellent sharpening stone - let's use it now, while we still can.

Personally, I have no strong feelings towards him. I don't care about him as a character and I'm not particularly interested in seeing him among our inner circle of friends. But, having a foil would be good for LQ as a person, beneficial for the project and useful for the narrative overall.

Valmond · Oct 10, 2021

I think you are way overstating Luo Zhongs potential usefulness, and way underestimating Ling Qi's ability to smell a rat.

Varder · Oct 10, 2021

Sirrocco said:
So... where is this super-compelling offer that of course she wouldn't turn down?

I don't get it, are you upset that he turned a friendly gathering into apartly political meeting, or upset that he didn't do it in full? xD

JammingforHam · Oct 10, 2021

I'll admit that I made a wrong decision at the beginning of this little get-together. We should have treated Luo Zhong as he treated us. (IRL I've been taught to kill them with kindness if not able to avoid them entirely, and that overly influenced me)

I do not believe that he is immoral or irrational, but blinded by his past experiences with people. His transactional nature is not the way that LQ prefers to operate.

I think that we need to be much more blunt with him in private. He does not truly understand our differences imo, which will consistently lead to tension between the two of us.
Luo Zhong needs to put effort into a relationship with us rather than expecting us to consistently come to him. It is somewhat good that he decided to come party crash, but there are a thousand and one ways he could have done that in a polite fashion. We need to tell him that we're willing to work with him, but until he recognizes our differences it will be a very low level business relationship. We can trade a few extremely minor favors, but anything more will require significant effort on his part.

BronzeTongue · Oct 10, 2021

For my part at least the biggest issue with LZ is that he's still a kiddy pool candidate. He's not like our Meng friend who was sent to us for being exceptional while the project was small, he's just some guy who was nearby.

Yes we're bringing in close friends who don't really have better qualifications than him in that respect, but we only get so many of those and he isn't a close friend or supporter anyway.

If we were planning a big ~~Greek~~ sect life spring break trip than "some guy who can throw a decent party even if he's a jerk" is a decent person to bring on board. But what we're doing is organizing the first serious diplomatic effort this part of the empire has tried to make with a neighboring peer in a long time.

Moreover, the party we're doing this on behalf of doesn't consider non-citizens people and has variably genocidal attitudes towards many other groups. Overcoming (and if things go very well, perhaps eventually mitigating) that attitude isn't going to be easy and it's just one of the challenges we're facing.

We don't need the breakfast club, we need the state department.

Which is part of why we asked Wang to send home for someone with the skill set to help us instead of making an offer to him instead.

Working with the Luo would be good, but I don't see why we shouldn't at minimum give them the same treatment.

P_Tigras · Oct 10, 2021

JohnnieBoy123 said:
CRX should be building her team for the diplomatic mission to minimize interpersonal conflict within it. There are political realities that will intrude but Luo Zhong is nowhere near that important to do so.

I disagree. We shouldn't be so quick to personalize conflict that really isn't personal. A limited degree of philosophical conflict over best methods that stays within the bounds of propriety helps avoid groupthink and can often produce more robust results. CRX's priority should be maximizing the mission's odds of success, which includes getting as many count clans as possible to become invested in its success. We know the Luo are isolationist and we don't want them sitting the mission out. I thus want to hear Luo Zhong's pitch. Assuming he makes a good offer, it's in LQ's interest to accept, and I expect that prolonged exposure to each other's diverging viewpoints will result in growth for both characters.

Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

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