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Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
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Black Noise said:
Let's talk about debuffs. (ignores a choir of "nooo" groans and sighs)

There are, generally speaking 3 ways to spend Qi and Time in a fight:
  • Attack (damage or debuff)
  • Buff effect (attack or defense, self or team, instant or long)
  • Utility effect (perception, mobility, stealth, dispel)
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Those are arranged weirdly. If you'd be looking at 'auto's vs attacks', then Utility should mostly be in the attack categories. If not, there is absolutly no reason for attack/debuff to be put in the same category, and instead the categories should be about the roles in the fights, and thus:
  • Damage/Disables
  • Buff/Debuffs (attack or defence, perception, mobility, stealth, dispel)
By putting damage/debuff in 'attacks' together there is creating an equivalence of potential there which creates confusion because their actual role are different so they can't easily be compared, and as such we can't actually balance them. Not only that, but a lot of the so called 'utility' are actually attacks in practice.

  • Pure Damage Attack:
    • Certainty: "works" based on Hit vs Avoid
    • Strength: (damage) based on Pen vs Armor
    • Scaling: Linear effect scaling with multiple uses (sum of total damage)
      • At least until low hp penalties start affecting the fight
    • Duration: Instant (usually), though "dps field" attacks exist (dissonance, ashfield)
    • Mitigation[1]: Effect cannot be removed barring healing, which is hard
  • Debuff Attack (current system):
    • Certainty: "works" based on Hit vs Avoid
    • Strength: constant (low compared to buffs)
      • Additional, usually stronger effects gated by Stat tests
    • scaling:
      • Linear (most effects)
      • Compounding (gets stronger with more uses): Debuffs to Avoid
    • Duration: Long (usually)
    • Mitigation: Dispels to resist or remove (simple enough)
  • Debuff attack (armor version): Same as above except for:
    • Strength:
      • Effect strength based on Pen vs Armor
        • This means effects can be made stronger with Pen > Armor
        • Also see Zhengui
      • Additional to or instead of Armor (unknown), Stat Test gated effects
    • Scaling: cales linearly (most effects)
      • Linear (most effects)
      • Compounding: Debuffs to Avoid or Armor
        • Armor debuff compounding can lead to "death spirals", but is hard to pull off against high-armor targets
  • Buff Effect:
    • Certainty: always works
    • Strength: constant
    • Scaling:
      • Linear (most buffs)
      • Compounding (meta-buffs like JT, though it costs a lot in Qi)
    • Duration: Instant and Long, strong effects either way
    • Mitigation: offensive dispels (difficult; need to hit first, and given +dodge buffs...)
[1] Special dodge techs work on both attacks and debuffs and require specialized "undodgable" attacks to counter and are thus not counted here.
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Another issue here is that 'Duration' of attacks are actually "Longer than the fight". After all, if you consider Debuff effect 'long' because the -10 to Armor last 6 rounds, then you must consider an attack effect "Persistent" because the damage last until they are healed post fight.

If instead you are talking about how long the attack itself takes, then debuff also tend to be immediate, as are debuff. The exceptions are, amusingly, lung techniques because they create constructs. For example, Hoarfross Caress' attack last multiple turns, or Sun Liling's Armor, or FVM (which needs playing), and so on. This is not a matter of Buff/Debuff/Attack, but a matter of types of Buff/Debuff/Attacks.

Furthermore, under the current system, unless attacks and buffs are also all compounding (because more attack means lower health, and more buff means higher attack buff/etc), then debuffs are not compounding if they attack avoid. After all, their actual effect are linears, it's just stacking the effect.

The argument that it would be 'more' compounding with armor influencing debuff is a joke, as the argument actually means "debuff don't work unless you first take care of the armor, then they will be at their true value".... which actually mean in practice that a°) it would be partial effect until it gets linear and more importantly b°) it's an argument for making constant debuffs on an opponent and never using actual disables/attacks.

I am also not sure why you deleted the 'mitigation' part of the proposed armor system for debuff. I guess it would have looked too bad.
Observations:
  • Most attacks usually have a debuff component.
  • There are physical debuffs:
    • AtW and some other "hostile environment" effects.
    • Some grapples.
    • Some armor rending.
  • Pure debuff attacks usually have utility effects (mist, SEA), but are otherwise underpowered compared to attacks that both damage and debuff.
  • Buffs are generally much easier to set up, harder to counter, and provide stronger effects than debuffs in either regime
  • Armor-for-Debuffs basically does the following:
    • Merge {attack, debuff} into a single category whose effects strength is determined by Armor vs Pen.
    • Effect is a mixture of damage and debuff, with pure damage attacks and pure damage debuffs as the (rare) extremes
  • Having both Stat Tests (even smoothed) and Armor affect debuff strength is double dipping the defensive attributes, should be one or the other for different kinds of effects, not both
  • Debuffs with constant absolute strength have different relative strength based on the target:
    • -10 hit on a A30 stat is less useful than -10 hit on C15
    • This means mitigation-by-armor shouldn't be too strong lest debuffs are reduced to nothing
  • Armor-based mitigation makes narrative sense for some debuffs but not others. Sometimes a Stat test makes more sense, and sometimes just constant absolute effect is logical, especially for "environmental" debuffs.
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A very important point, maybe the most important, that was skipped: Buff can often be used while doing an attack, while Debuff have to be used instead of doing a damaging attack. This is the biggest difference from debuff to buff that cannot be changed, considering that a high enough Hit could in practice make debuff identical to buff otherwise.

Moreoever, there is absolutely no reason for Armor-based mitigation to make narrative sense for almost all debuff. As in, while for more exotic effect a STR test to check if the secondary effect works could make sense, a debuff being influenced by armor by itself goes strongly against the narrative established.

Take for example Ling Qi being hit by against the wind. Having the wind making one's movement more awkward is not helped by armor. Likewise, Zhengui being attacked by a wave of armor-eating acid should not have the armour first countering the acid, and then the armour countering the acid a second time because having high armour counters the acid by itself.

I can see why you put attack/debuff in the same category in your analysis though: because you are planning to change the current system so that every attack is a debuff, and as such they would be put together. It seems you are purposefully trying to change the meta and as such are retroactively beginning your argument from the point of view of debuff not existing.
Before we draw some conclusions, let me talk a bit about Zhengui:
  • Stat-wise:
    • Crazy physical armor (B sta, B fort), high spiritual armor (C resolve, C resilience)
    • Abysmal physical avoid (F dex, F dodge)
    • Low spiritual avoid (D wits, F fade)
    • Poor self-dispel (E int, also causes bad spirit pen)
  • This is the "slow tank" build meant to take all hits and just power through them, and under the current regime it leaves a glaring hole in the form of debuffs.
  • This is a systemic design flaw that prevents this build from being viable without without an outright broken self-dispel ability (Heizui).
    • Weak as they are, one "disable" type debuff that hits or just enough lesser ones and the fight's over.
    • This build should be viable without cheating given GG is mostly running Tank, and not even some "block/parry" version of Avoid.
  • I'm not saying Zhengui can't have weaknesses, but legendary beasts shouldn't have easy hard counters.
    • Not that he'll be debuff-immune under an armor regime; his sp.armor isn't enough for that.
    • Debuffs would still be the easier way to take him down given his high armor and regeneration.
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I am sorry, but you are saying that Zhengui can't have weakness, and furthermore are ignoring half of your own argument. Buffs would be the easiest way to take him down, because buff that flat out dimnish one's armor rank or ignore it exist. Under your very own theory, Zhengui is trivialised by things like SCS the tech or Echo... except he isn't, and he is even less trivialised by debuff.

Zhengui is not GG. If GG has low dex and fade, it's a choice and himself opening himself up to an avenue of attack in order to have stronger armor. As such, asking that he needs to have strong dispels and high perception to counter disables and debuff makes sense. In fact, Kang Zihao is the very example of someone who chose the same build as GG did but has his own answer to debuff. That build is completely viable, and there is no reason to assume that if GG choose to make himself vulnerable to debuff through not having non-avoid ways to deal with those (and those exist) he shouldn't be punished by it.

This is not a systemic design flaw, because there are many, many ways for a high-tank to not be vulnerable to debuffs (High Perception/Mobility/Dispels, strong buffs). Your argument rest on the fact that Zhengui currently has low Int and so isn't too good for dispels. However, physical debuffs are nigh-useless on Zhengui because they mostly need to go through his armor to do anything anyway under the current system. As for the spiritual debuff, there is no reason for Zhengui to not train his Fade.

If Zhengui doesn't improve his dispels or his fade and get tagged by nasty esoteric spiritual effect, that's him messing up and things working as intended. Not a systemic issue.

Oh, and as I mentioned above... the buffs do all of this, but worse.
With all that considered, here's some proposals:
  • Buff strength is somewhat mitigated by high costs for the best ones and (low) setup time, but they still seem strong, and their relative effect strength should be considered.
    • The idea is that after the first few buffs are up the relative advantage of another buff falls below the other ways to spend resources.
  • Debuff effect strength needs to be adjusted:
    • Some form of effect resistance should happen for most effects:
      • Method of resistance is one of: {Armor, Stat, None}, depending on the debuff on case-by-case basis (whatever makes most sense)
      • Hard CC like sleep, paralysis, grapple, meridian disables and so on should have armor or stat-based resistance.
      • A single debuff can have multiple components which are resisted by different means.
    • Debuffs should be considered as Attacks for purpose of balancing:
      • Damaging debuffs, Pure damage attacks, and pure debuff attacks need to have similar overall utility at equal potency-rank.
        • Relative utility depends on circumstances; for us setting up a Darkness/Stealth enabling long-lasting Mist is worth a lot more than a single HC most of the time.
      • Damage can trade off with extra duration, AoE, buff or utility components, or nastier and harder-hitting negative effects.
    • Effect strength should scale based on resistance:
      • At Pen = Armor (or other mitigation) should be approximately what it currently is plus whatever buffing is necessary to bring it in-line with other Attacks.
      • Scaling as Pen > Armor and Pen < Armor should considered very carefully, and depend on mitigation gap.
      • Ideally "completely ignore debuffs" shouldn't happen without a ridiculous advantage like 3+ letter ranks of Armor over Pen.
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This is basically contradicting everything we know, because:
  • Buff has equal cost to debuff, and lower set up time compared to debuff.
  • There is no reasoning for why debuff effect strength should be resisted but buff shouldn't
  • Hard CC abilities should be considered as disables and put in the same category as damaging attacks, as such I agree they should be resisted by something.
  • Debuff should be considering as Buffs that need one to both have longer set up time and be able to hit the enemy, so should be always considered at least +1 rank in effect compared to buffs.
 
I think it's useful to examine archetypes in the conversation around debuffs. Strong dodge focus vs strong armor focus, both to the exclusion of the other. Someone who dodges 90% of attacks folds like a cheap suit 10% of the time, because the damage that lands is unmitigated. Someone who takes no damage from 90% of attacks is still fine after the 10% that do, because armor values reduce the impact of those blows.

Further, the things that make people good at armor already increase health pools and very often are what debuff attribute tests test against. Stamina increases health, physical armor, and gets tested against for things like poison, disease, or esoteric fatigue and so on. Resolve and Composure increase spiritual armor and are usual suspects for resisting many spiritual debuff tests.

This is the "double-dipping" problem of applying armor values to resisting debuffs; a large portion of stat tests will be affected by the same stat twice, making debuffs that target those comparatively inadequate and further privileging armor-oriented builds. Doing away with the "cliffs" as @yrsillar put it with debuff tests already addresses the issue of low-dodge character susceptibility to debuffs to a significant degree, in my opinion.

But really, the fact that there's on-hit effects is what makes dodging stuff have any worth in the first place. Investing in dodge means investing in a paradigm where, comparatively, you can't afford to take hits. In return, that investment buys you reduced instances of being debuffed, which you can already afford less because of fundamental squishiness. There's a trade-off. Trade-offs are good, which is why I oppose changes that simply make armor superior in all use cases.
 
You know, since Sixiang can apparently create a space-like structure that we can visit while we are asleep while in green/bronze 1, I feel that creating an art that draws willing participants into it is not that far fetched. Should Sixiang start cultivating and getting stronger, and Ling Qi and Sixiang work together, I could really see a dreamscape training area, where we can draw in willing participants into fantastical dream sequences where the perception of time is altered and different landscapes are available.

It just seems like a way to naturally progress Sixiang's domain like space. First make it a place where we can train and meditate, and then make it into a space that others can train and meditate as well.

I do see a problem with it though, and that is the expressions of qi in a place which seems to be a very important aspect of Sixiang's being. Letting other domains interact and be inside a spirits domain might not be a very good idea.
 
Thor's Twin said:
I do see a problem with it though, and that is the expressions of qi in a place which seems to be a very important aspect of Sixiang's being. Letting other domains interact and be inside a spirits domain might not be a very good idea.
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Use it offensively.
Instead of drawing in friends for them to train in the dream-space, draw in enemies to capture, or fight, in a space where they have no outside help (be it allies or even just ambient Qi to regen from).
Eventually upgrade the dream-space so Six can use the space itself as a vector of attack/restraining.
 
Ayashi said:
Use it offensively.
Instead of drawing in friends for them to train in the dream-space, draw in enemies to capture, or fight, in a space where they have no outside help (be it allies or even just ambient Qi to regen from).
Eventually upgrade the dream-space so Six can use the space itself as a vector of attack/restraining.
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Being drawn into a pillow fort.
How novel!
 
As I learned when my cousins where smaller pillows are serious business and one should stay in your pillow fort for as long as possible. All hail the rise of new kingdom of pillows!
 
Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by Arkeus on Jan 23, 2019 at 9:25 AM, finished with 7289 posts and 99 votes.
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I have no problem with the direction this vote is going, I just believe fear and disquiet can be defeated by the fundation we build in making friends and warming both their and out hearts.

We have the perfect example how chasing away loneliness, also defeated fear.

[X] Compose a piece about loneliness and cold, and how they came to fade away

 
Okay got a another minor changelog. First let me present the rules change added to the arts and techniques tutorial.

Checking against an Attribute: Some arts check against an opponents attributes during a fight to determine their effects. Effects such as these have modified results based on how high or low the targetted attribute is. The described effect assumes relative parity with the caster, and may be more or less intense if this assumption is off.

Buff and Debuff effectiveness: It can be assumed that a debuff is more powerful than a buff of equal rank and potency. SIngle target buffs and debuffs are similarly greater in effect on individuals than group effects of the same rank and potency.


The first other change is to how speed is calculated, rather than Str+Dex, it now uses the higher of these two stats and averages them with your athletics skill. This serves to make athletics actually do something, and allows for greater specialization. The second is switching PLR's penetration over to presence instead of strength

Also two hour warning on vote lock
 
Ah in fairness, I also nerfed your athletics skill by one rank, because its not something that's really gotten any story focus. Your speed is still higher than it was before
 
So now we don't need to be stronk to go fast? Sounds good. We'll naturally pick up some athletics when we train mobility/footwork type arts, and now we don't need to mess with strength when it doesn't do much for us.
 
I'm not sure Athletics not having gotten any story focus is true. Sure it wasn't the the primary focus at any point, but it was commented on a lot back when Ling Qi was in Zhou's classes and there was an extremely noticeable undercurrent of Ling Qi starting out of shape and struggling to keep up on a base physical level until eventually she caught up. I definitely feels like it got more focus and training then formations did which is now higher than it for some reason. It losing a level leaves a bad taste in my mouth as it feels like it's giving a shaft to all the training that was done just because the skill wasn't called out by name while it was being trained.
 
minimap_op said:
I'm not sure Athletics not having gotten any story focus is true. Sure it wasn't the the primary focus at any point, but it was commented on a lot back when Ling Qi was in Zhou's classes and there was an extremely noticeable undercurrent of Ling Qi starting out of shape and struggling to keep up on a base physical level until eventually she caught up. I definitely feels like it got more focus and training then formations did which is now higher than it for some reason. It losing a level leaves a bad taste in my mouth as it feels like it's giving a shaft to all the training that was done just because the skill wasn't called out by name while it was being trained.
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It didn't get nerfed badly. It's almost C rank, which is "OK for a green/best possible for a Yellow". Formation itself is C rank, but formation doesn't deserve that rank and is the product of omake cheating.
 
Arkeus said:
It didn't get nerfed badly. It's almost C rank, which is "OK for a green/best possible for a Yellow". Formation itself is C rank, but formation doesn't deserve that rank and is the product of omake cheating.
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Nonsense, LQ is just a natural prodigy in formations and just never took the chance to invest time in them since our cultivation talent is so high.
 
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