Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

[Arkeus]

I don't inherently object to the system working like this, but I'd like to again bring up the "buff" problem here.

This weakens debuffs. Debuffs already have the problem that if they're only as strong as buffs, then buffs are objectively better because buffs don't have to contend with defenses at all. In addition, debuffs are already balanced against attacks by virtue of the part where if you're throwing out debuffs instead of attacking then you aren't actually damaging your enemy. A lot of the time going debuff -> attack can actually produce lower overall dps than just attacking.

Obviously a lot of this analysis is based on last year's system, but the same basic principles remain.

For example: say your stats are equal to your opponent. If you throw out an attack, you have roughly even odds of hitting them, and would do roughly half damage (as a crude rule of thumb). If we have a debuff that reduces their defenses by 1 rank then it would also only have even odds of landing and would be reduced to ~0.5 ranks. Overall, it would take about 4 attacks after landing the debuff (prob 1-2 attempts) for overall DPS to begin to overtake what would be achieved by just attacking. In contrast, a buff of the same strength would provide an immediate advantage, having 100% success and being at full power. Indeed, even if the buff was only half as strong as the debuff it would still arguably be stronger, as again it would have 100% success and so always require only 1 action to set up.

Obviously yrsillar has a lot of room to finesse things in the narrative, and the mechanics should not be taken too literally. However, it does illustrate the basic principle that debuffs *have* to be significantly stronger than buffs to make sense as a build path. Given that as far as we can tell they are not, in fact, massively stronger, moving to nerf them even more is somewhat questionable.

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Something you don't mention here is that while Debuff are done instead of attacking, buffs are often done while attacking (though there are some exceptions). So it's not just that Debuffs have to contend with Buff being 'always work', but Buffs also don't mean you get punched in the face while you are using them, while debuff does, and that's if we ignore that most fights get decided before a debuff can really have effect.

Also, mmh. Not to whine too much, but currently it appears Buff's effects are kinda stronger than Debuff ones. Even if we are only looking at offensive buffs vs debuff:

One with Shadow: C rank
Duration: Persistent
The user merges with the shadows and dark, dematerializing entirely. In this form they may slip from shadow to shadow, without crossing the space between so long as the destination shadow is at least moderately sized. In this form the users presence is muted, even to spiritual senses. If the user slips successfully into the shadow of an opponent, their connection grants their first attack against that enemy a great potency, ignoring the effects of any damage reduction the target may have. However, an attack on the shadow the user inhabits can harm the user, and damage will break this technique.

Sable Crescent Step: B rank
A master of this art may bring its lessons together in a single movement, an impeccable step of matchless grace. The cunning master may find several uses for this movement. A single attack of equal or lower may be avoided, no matter how unerring the aim, as the user simply ceases to exist in the material world for a moment, rematerializing with Far range of their current position. If more offensively inclined, the user may instead make a single physical attack utterly bypassing up to C rank physical armor and damage reduction, and rematerialize within Close range of their target. Targets with higher damage or armor reduction instead have it reduced by two ranks for the purposes of determining damage.

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Echoes of Absolute Winter: B
Duration: Special
A technique used in tandem with Aria of Springs End, if activated at the same time, the Aria carries an echo of true winter, stilling the very air around the singer with its freezing chill. Attacks targeting the user, or which have an area of effect overlapping with Aria's have their penetration reduced by one rank as the cold devours the energy of the technique or attack. Similarly, Cold or Dark techniques used by the singer against those in range of Aria have their Hit or Penetration enhanced by one rank, as chosen by the user. In addition, Fire, Light, and similar arts are reduced in effectiveness within range, regardless of source.

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Joyous Toast: C
Duration: Immediate
Usable only while Illustrious Phantasmal Festival is active. The guests of the festival raise their voices and cups and stamp their feet in joy, roaring encouragement for the user and their allies and jeering at their foes. The next music, dance or art based technique used by those affected is treated as if it is one rank higher for determining effects.

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vs

Mist of the Vale: C
Duration: Persistent/Short
Playing the first notes of the melancholy melody, the musician causes a dark mist to roll forth from their instrument. The mist is filled with deceptive shadows and sounds, casting darkness over all within. The mist spreads to cover the range Close to the musician and may be extended out to Very Far, at the cost increasing the cost to the technique by 10 for each increment. The user may extend immunity too and benefits from the mist to up to ten allies, increasing cost by 2 for each one.

Within the mist, foes find their senses confused, attacks against the musician or their allies often strike at phantoms, and seeking to escape the mist or advance upon the musician often result in meandering travelers reminiscent of the composers own wandering. In their confused state, they become vulnerable to the terrors which can reside in Vales far from civilization.


Dissonance of Night's Terror: C
Duration: Special
Damage: E
May only be used within Mist of the Vale. The melody grows low and eerie, punctuated by high, sharp notes, while the mists darken with indistinct and predatory shapes. Claws and fangs of mist and shadow tear at the musician's foes, rending armor and leaving wounds that bleed freely to feed the hunger of the mist. This technique counts as one combatant on the musicians side for multiattack bonuses.


Starlight Elegy: C
Duration: Persistent
The mournful and despairing tune saps the energy of those not insulated from the mist, making their limbs heavy and their thoughts clouded with exhaustion and longing for home. The cloying mist drags at their limbs like the weight of a life spent alone and drains away their qi rapidly, making it difficult to move, let alone attack. --Despair of the Lost
Alternatively, the power of the Elegy may be focused on a single target, drowning them in the endless mist, leaving them to wander as if alone and far from from home. So long as they remain lost, their allies aid cannot reach them, and they will wander alone in their perception, aware only of the haunting notes of the melody and its musician.

Travelers End: B
Duration: Scene
Damage: B
In a distant, misty valley, far from the works of mankind, a traveler completed a melody and offered it to the moon, the final notes echoing long after his last breath. This melody is but a shadow of that… but even shadows hold power. Only usable if all other Forgotten Vale Melody techniques are active.

The mist grows darker and more cloying still, blotting out almost all external light, and draining the warmth from those trapped within. The mist grows potent with dark qi, fogging the senses still further to bring them the lonely despair of the travelers final days. While active all other Forgotten Vale techniques are considered one rank higher, and attempts to dispel them must first dispel Travelers End.

The user may choose to end the melody at any time after Travelers End has been used. If they do so, the song reaches its finale, and all other techniques of the Forgotten Vale are ended as well. All who were still lost within the mist suffer an immediate spiritual attack of great magnitude, an echo of the travelers death in that far away vale. Those damaged by this attack may be paralyzed utterly by the assault, if their composure is too weak..

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Like, it appears pretty clearly that the buffs effects tend to have much greater potency there than debuff ones, often OHKO enablers while debuff ones... aren't. While the debuff effects appear pretty good at disposing of large groups of mooks through esoteric effects, it's also something that simply blowing them up would often do better (Also, FVM's finale is... a buff to the debuffs).

 

[Erebeal]

It's also kind of a flavor fail for armor to mitigate debuffs. Why not just increase the variety and frequency of debuff-fighting gear?

We've already seen Han Jian pay2win to fight off the sleep spell.

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Not really. It makes perfect sense for spiritual resilience to reduce how much such debuffs affect you. Heck, it even makes AM work better in the new system - which is why I don't inherently object to it.

 

[Humbaba]

That being said, a big problem here I think actually comes from the part where @yrsillar put numbers back into our new techs.

The basic issue here is that debuffs have to be, numerically, at least twice as powerful as buffs to be worth it - or have have other powerful effects that would make up for it.

If we have buffs that give us +1 rank, then the equivalent debuff would be at least -2 ranks. Forcing a swing of 2 ranks however is rather dangerous though, since if we landed that at full power it could, for instance, effectively completely shut down their ability to hit us or something like that. Of course, with the new system that would be reduced by their armor, so it might not be too bad, but it is something to be concerned about.

Having to be concerned about these kinds of mechanical balance issues is the reason we removed the numbers in the first place.

When things are fully narrative then at least yrsillar can just gloss over things and as long as he makes our arts feel impactful then everything's fine. Put numbers in there and it forces some very direct comparisons that make us ask awkward questions about balance.

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I think the major issue (apart from going form one incomprehensible number system to another) is that debuffs are generally designed around game systems in which parties are a major component. In systems with parties getting off that debuff can easily be worth the turn despite only being as good as a buff, because you've got several other people who can do the hitting for you. By contrast, despite everything, the focus of this game still seems to be around Ling Qi as the only member of the party, or with possibly one character's (Zhengui's) assistance.

The second problem is that (IMO) buffs are stupidly overpowered and need a major nerf. Mostly becasuse of the "buff cycle" enabling people to stack massive numbers of buffs on themselves nigh instantly, and for attacking types, keep them that way whilst not taking any sacrifice their damage output and actually increasing it.

I definitely think that damage dealing type moves (i.e. weapon arts) that also deal out buffs and debuffs need to be significanly weaker than pure buff or debuff type moves (which I am fairly convinced they aren't) or we get the situation where pure buff/debuffers actually come out worse at their build's primary objective vs a facepuncher with a bonus effect on their attack. Or the number of people in combats need to go up a lot, so "buffs/debuffs everyone on field" is more of a relevant advantage.

 

[Arkeus]

Not really. It makes perfect sense for spiritual resilience to reduce how much such debuffs affect you. Heck, it even makes AM work better in the new system - which is why I don't inherently object to it.

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I'd argue the opposite. Spiritual resilience shouldn't really influence how much a debuff targetting avoid influence you (because those are done mostly through distractions/etc rather than brute force), and having Spiritual Resilience influence how much a debuff targetting spiritual resilience means that spiritual resilience double dip, which is baaaaad.

So I'd say it actually doesn't work narratively at all, but meh, I don't always have the same opinion as other people.

 

[Erebeal]

I think the major issue (apart from going form one incomprehensible number system to another) is that debuffs are generally designed around game systems in which parties are a major component. In systems with parties getting off that debuff can easily be worth the turn despite only being as good as a buff, because you've got several other people who can do the hitting for you. By contrast, despite everything, the focus of this game still seems to be around Ling Qi as the only member of the party, or with possibly one character's (Zhengui's) assistance.

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Except that we also have group buffs. Like, if buffs were primarily personal and group supports focused on debuffs then that would be fine. But that's not what we've got.

Heck, for a large chunk of the game our group debuffs actually *suffered* from us having multiple allies.

 

[ParticipantAward]

I think part of the problem with buffs vs debuffs is that there doesn't seem to be much in the way of buff dispels. Stacking debuffs can be negated through immunity, resistance, and cleanse, but buffs generally have no counter other than timeout. The scale might swing towards debuffs when we get the opportunity to do ambushes, but during a cultivator school/tournament arc, focus is more heavily placed on trials and duels where we don't get to ambush or run away to wait out buffs.

Regarding parties and allies, does anybody get the feeling like we're going to need a Pokemon Trainer build if we're going to continue focusing on support just so that we have allies to support?

 

[Erebeal]

I think part of the problem with buffs vs debuffs is that there doesn't seem to be much in the way of buff dispels. Stacking debuffs can be negated through immunity, resistance, and cleanse, but buffs generally have no counter other than timeout. The scale might swing towards debuffs when we get the opportunity to do ambushes, but during a cultivator school/tournament arc, focus is more heavily placed on trials and duels where we don't get to ambush or run away to wait out buffs.

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Nah, it's just that we personally personally lack offensive dispels.

Cai otoh has a really nasty one.

By and large though dispels are only really useful if you're getting more than single dispel out of it. Otherwise all you're doing is spending qi and an action to (maybe) negate one of their expenses/actions. It's why all the dispels are also buffs - because otherwise they'd only be useful against really OP things.

This is also why our build in particular is particularly vulnerable to dispels - layering techs like FVM and PLR can be messed up heavily because several layers can be removed with a single dispel.

 

[AbeoLogos]

Except that we also have group buffs. Like, if buffs were primarily personal and group supports focused on debuffs then that would be fine. But that's not what we've got.

Heck, for a large chunk of the game our group debuffs actually *suffered* from us having multiple allies.

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I mean, they still do. They obligate us to spend more qi and cap the number of allies we can safely operate near. The only group debuff that doesn't have this as an issue is... FSS's AoE attack. Support abilities we have to pay extra to not harm allies are pretty suspect "support abilities".

Also, @yrsillar there is a strong likelihood that you're now going to be lobbied to change the attribute that applies for Pen on PLR, since this change makes PLR actually incapable of affecting anyone in the 3rd realm. I think this would be a mistake. It would be letting yourself get herded into a corner so that other areas of your design can get picked at freely; this is significantly different than good faith (or competent) advice.

There is an overall issue with the treatment/conflation of physical and spiritual cultivation, but it needs to be examined seriously at a broad level, rather than individual wrinkles being complained about, altered... and causing yet more wrinkles. Like, with PLR in particular, it's a Dex/Str based art that uses a skill categorized as "Physical", but cultivating it relies solely on Spiritual cultivation? Not split like SCS(before the retcon which I frown upon). TRF has had the same issue. Nothing about TRF's operation is aligned apart from the physical, so having it rely on purely Spiritual cultivation is... it's actually fine. What isn't fine is when every art is like this. It looks weird. There's something clearly odd going on, and it damages in some way the credibility of the Spiritual/Physical divide in the first place.

Personally, I see zero conflict with illusions generated by physical prowess, but others are bewildered to angry, and the underlying classifications of the system aren't helping.

I think part of the problem with buffs vs debuffs is that there doesn't seem to be much in the way of buff dispels. Stacking debuffs can be negated through immunity, resistance, and cleanse, but buffs generally have no counter other than timeout. The scale might swing towards debuffs when we get the opportunity to do ambushes, but during a cultivator school/tournament arc, focus is more heavily placed on trials and duels where we don't get to ambush or run away to wait out buffs.

Regarding parties and allies, does anybody get the feeling like we're going to need a Pokemon Trainer build if we're going to continue focusing on support just so that we have allies to support?

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We actually have seen three buff dispels. The first was FSA's Disruptive Star, which attempted to dispel the target's lowest ranking buff if it dealt damage; the wording has been changed in the translation to this thread/year, so no idea if it even works that way anymore. The second and third were fairly recent, both seen during the tournament. Cai Renxiang filled a qi card with a technique which buffs the user's attack while dispelling enemy defences, which was also fast enough to stack with other offensive techniques and frankly it's hideously OP. Lastly, Sun Liling's Domain Weapon appears to have a free on-hit dispel (which broke our highest/B rank tech when it hit us) which is also kind of broken as heck.

I don't think we've ever seen stand alone buff dispels.

 

[ParticipantAward]

We actually have seen three buff dispels. The first was FSA's Disruptive Star, which attempted to dispel the target's lowest ranking buff if it dealt damage; the wording has been changed in the translation to this thread/year, so no idea if it even works that way anymore. The second and third were fairly recent, both seen during the tournament. Cai Renxiang filled a qi card with a technique which buffs the user's attack while dispelling enemy defences, which was also fast enough to stack with other offensive techniques and frankly it's hideously OP. Lastly, Sun Liling's Domain Weapon appears to have a free on-hit dispel (which broke our highest/B rank tech when it hit us) which is also kind of broken as heck.

I don't think we've ever seen stand alone buff dispels.

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Hrmm, so we have a weak unreliable buff dispel right now, and the other two dispels we've seen came from ducal heirs. Good catch though. I think we'll be fine even under the new system if we can score some more reliable forms of buff dispel and some reliable disables. We've got some time before they'll really matter, which is the tournament that we have to win, and it seems possible that we'd be able to get something from Cai after some more time in service.

Alternatively, we could be a Pokemon Trainer and somehow get a spirit ally that does it so that we don't need to spread ourselves too thinly to cover every option.

 

[Orkus Majorkus]

God in heaven just do narrative fights and toss the whole numeral system in the trash all it does is angry up the math nerds as they try to break the system for no appreciable material gain.

 

[Thor's Twin]

Narratively, our debuffs seem incredibly potent. Just look at this scene with Shen Hu.

"Well, if you say so," Shen Hu replied, stretching his arms above his head before falling back into a combat stance. "So no mist this time?"

"No mist," Ling Qi agreed. Not quite looking at him. Xiulan really had infected her. Shen Hu could be distracting at times. "It'd defeat the point if you had to spend half of your time finding me."

Shen Hu nodded, and Ling Qi let her meridians flood with dark qi. She wouldn't let herself slow down now. Besides, sparring was more relaxing than most of her other responsibilities.

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Now, we can argue about whether Ling Qi is being hyperbolic here or whether it does take Shen Hu half of the sparring time just finding her, but given that Shen Hu doesn't disagree we can assume that there is a solid amount of truth to the statement. That our mists make Shen Hu (a Green/Bronze 2 cultivator) need a significant time to find us. Time which we can easily use to keep layering on the debuffs.

Our debuffs last longer than other buffs we've seen, do a variety of exotic effects that stack with each other, and when properly executed have shown the ability to cripple an opponent's ability to fight us. Our debuffs, narratively at least, are perfectly fine. This change makes penetration more important to our build, but that's fine since we were planning on improving our penetration anyways, have buffs to improve our penetration, and tools to lower the opponent's armor.

If there is a large disparity mechanically between our buffs and debuffs, which I actually don't think is the case, then there are a couple of possible explanations. (1) Our buffs are high quality and not dispositive or representative of the normal quality of buffs, (2) the mechanics are used as a guidepost for the narrative and the disparity between buffs and debuffs is significantly lesser when actually applied in the narrative.

Debuffs have been highly relevant for this entire quest and the previous quest. They're not suddenly going to become non-relevant because of a need for higher penetration to avoid the debuff effects being mitigated.

 

[Erebeal]

Now, we can argue about whether Ling Qi is being hyperbolic here or whether it does take Shen Hu half of the sparring time just finding her, but given that Shen Hu doesn't disagree we can assume that there is a solid amount of truth to the statement. That our mists make Shen Hu (a Green/Bronze 2 cultivator) need a significant time to find us. Time which we can easily use to keep layering on the debuffs.

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Given how often people have argued about FVM not seeming to have any effect on enemies' ability to find us at all I suspect many would question that.

 

[Thor's Twin]

Given how often people have argued about FVM not seeming to have any effect on enemies' ability to find us at all I suspect many would question that.

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Given people's terrible memory for things that they don't want to believe, I also wouldn't be surprised that people would question it. But unless we want to say that multiple characters are actively lying to us about their ability then I guess we'll just have to trust what the narrative tells and shows us.

 

[Erebeal]

Given people's terrible memory for things that they don't want to believe, I also wouldn't be surprised that people would question it. But unless we want to say that multiple characters are actively lying to us about their ability then I guess we'll just have to trust what the narrative tells and shows us.

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It's whether or not it actually *shows* that to us that is the question (though part of that did have to do with broken stealth mechanics).

 

[Thor's Twin]

It's whether or not it actually *shows* that to us that is the question (though part of that did have to do with broken stealth mechanics).

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You're asking whether or not the story has actually shown the perception debuff working? Because that's not a question, it most certainly has. Completely independent of our stealth as well. Maybe the story hasn't shown it to people's satisfaction, but that could be attributed to a plethora of factors including, but not limited to, poor memory because people are entrenched in an argument.

The story has shown us the perception debuff working, independent of our stealth skill, and it has told us that it is effective. What more do people want?

 

[yrsillar]

Consider the change reverted until I consider again. Still getting rid of attribute cliffs

 

[AbeoLogos]

For what it's worth, I agree with @Erebeal that Armor mitigating the effects of debuffs makes perfectly fine sense. However, it's kind of doing the same thing in parallel with attribute resistance to debuff effects? When Armor derives from those attributes a lot of the time anyway, I'm not sure what the actual point of it is.

Eyeballing the relative stats/skills involved and deciding on what the narrative impact of a debuff should be was more or less how I figured things were being done. Making it armor specifically ropes in Penetration specifically and ties you down to it, resulting in less varied and flexible resolution states and stat blocks in the first place.

 

[veekie]

Doing my catchup on reviewing after last week being absurdly hectic at work.

To start with, the Royal Road extra chapter

Looking back down to his desk in the corner of the room, Dong Feng resumed arranging his tools to his liking. It was, after all, an honor for a Sect Clerk only a bit past his centennial to be selected to take minutes for a meeting of Elders. He would certainly have to buy his senior another bottle of Blossoming Dream Nectar in thanks for the opportunity.

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You know, relatively menial activities becoming an honor are an interesting element of how society works. Being known to have been present in a non-speaking role at an Elder meeting is itself a powerful social tool amongst your lower peers, who'd ascribe to you some insight into the Elders thoughts.

As we see the poor bastards really think too much.

As Dong Feng placed the last strip of jade, and checked the nib of his etching tool for sharpness, the doors at the far end of the brightly lit hall opened, and the first of the Elders swept in with a small rustle of cloth.

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Its also interesting how cultivation changes things.
Jade is one of the most durable stones out there, and could rapidly wear through most tools used to work it, as well as taking days to carve even a simple design into it. Using it for meeting minutes is hopelessly extravagant, and simultaneously recording it all with no expectation of future alteration.

And here we have a century old...Cyan(?) using it with about as much effort as writing on a clay tablet.
Wonder why they don't use treated paper instead, it doesn't seem the kind of major event which requires a first time imperishable record.

Elder Hua Su was among the youngest of her rank, he thought idly. Only a two and fifty years or so older than himself. Truly a talent and credit to the Sect.

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Thats a pretty quick ascent. What were the criteria for making Elder again?

Elder Zhou scowled, and Dong Feng felt himself break out in sweat as the shadow of a vast mountain fell over him, crushing his shoulders with its weight. It passed then, a mere flicker in the Commander's iron discipline. "I dislike this….circus," he said with distaste. "There is nothing that I can teach such neophytes that a lesser officer could not. I look forward to weeding out the worst."

"You underestimate your insight," the younger woman replied, taking her seat. "Still, it is not often that the Sect is host to such names. Have any yet made an impression?"

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Its definitely a thing there, some of us had wondered about the Elders' personal attention in lessons for Reds when they would be effectively indistinguishable from Cyans.

I guess its basically an excuse to expose new students to the Elders best at analyzing potential and then helping it along with some 'luck'?

Or was it a circumstance forced by the Duchess's intervention?

Across from the other two Elders, a pillar of liquid darkness arose, frothing and bubbling until it resolved into the gray skinned form of Elder Jiao, lounging in his seat wearing a robe of eye searing yellow, and a jauntily tilted cap on his bald head.


"If you have any insights to offer, they are obviously welcome, Sect Brother Jiao," Commander Zhou replied in a voice drier than any desert. "You have after all, been so involved in the running of the Outer Sect."

"Oh, nothing of my work would interest you, Sect Brother," Jiao replied in amusement. "Just scribblings and such, you know. Nothing for a man of your stature to be concerned over."

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For a Darkness cultivator, Jiao really loves bright colors and has the fashion sense of a parrot.

And I do wonder just how much time it takes for him to maintain the formations of the Outer Sect. We don't really have much idea what the 'baseline' environment is like do we?

Commander Zhou grunted in agreement, finally taking his seat alongside Elder Ying. "Agreed. I am disappointed in the Golden Fields group. I never imagined that Han would coddle his son so."

"Hmph, not everything is cultivation," Elder Jiao replied. "That one is at least well adjusted. There is a reason that the common age for beginning cultivation has risen."

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Yeah, for all of Han Jian's issues, he's probably the least fucked up of the high nobility.

Elder Su gave the commander a brief look which Dong Feng could not read, but it was Elder Ying who spoke, her reedy voice nonetheless carrying a great weight to it. The air began to tingle with thickened qi as wills clashed through narrowed eyes "You know as well as any that beginning before the age of twelve is near pointless. A child so young cannot properly form even the first steps of a way. You may as well attempt to sculpt a wall from dry sand."

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Hmm, interesting. Seems that starting young might actually backfire in some ways, since they lack the maturity to actually find a Way, and being immersed in cultivation too young means they tend to have a more tunnel visioned perspective on the world, for all that their senses are better.

Better if you're cultivating tools for a task, but its a solid steel flagpole with a base an inch wide if you start too young.

"But we have an exemplar of such early cultivation this very year!" Elder Jiao said brightly. "And they have such an interesting mind, do they not?"

Elder Ying's wrinkled face drew into a scowl, and Elder Su frowned. Elder Zhou merely closed his eyes. "...I am aware that there is a point which is too early," the commander grunted. "That does not change the truth of my words."

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Like say, Renxiang.

For Dong Feng, things were far more intense. He shivered violently, goosebumps forming on his skin as the qi in the room thickened with raised emotion. Where before he had looked upon a brightly lit meeting hall and four seniors and superiors, now he drowned in a lake of darkness filled by mocking, judging eyes while twin mountains, one a peak of barren gray stone and the other a riot of greenery and life, that both stretched into the sky rumbled and shook at one another.

He felt only relief when thunder clapped, rattling the very frame of the building, and the tension in the air dissolved, along with the figments of power. He gasped for air as the crushing weight fell from his shoulders and chest.

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#mindbreak #horror

Seems like this is a long running and quite savage argument.

Dong Feng almost sighed in relief as the serious atmosphere that had formed dissolved back into the casual one upmanship and bickering of a normal office meeting. It was always frightening to be reminded of just how far an Elder was from a mere clerk.

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And how close they are. This is just like any faculty meeting in the end. Just more powerful.

"Darkness and cold are two facets of a single crystal," Zeqing's voice murmured in her ear while the blizzard howled and Hanyi laughed. "They are absence, and emptiness, and the end of all things."

"...The silence is beautiful, sometimes," LIng Qi murmured. She did not speak of base sound, as the storm was actually quite loud… but on a deeper level, beneath sight and sound, where there was only the flow of qi…. It was calm and peaceful. There was no strife and violence, only a quiet stillness that made her heart ache. Yet she knew that the feeling was fleeting, without needing to hear Zeqing's words.

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Peace from the lack of anything to fear?
I suppose in a sense when you have nothing, you have nothing to lose too.

This time her mentor did not respond immediately, save for an intensifying of the winds and the driving ice. Ling Qi smiled as she wove through another barrage of flung snow from an increasingly pouting Hanyi.

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Hanyi so cute :3

"All things End," Ling Qi shivered, the final word echoing in her ear like the ringing of a temple gong, layers of meaning skipping across her thoughts. "Heat, warmth, lives, cities, empires, rivers and mountains; none are eternal. The sun and the moon, the heavens and the earth, these things too shall End in time," Zeqing's voice chilled her, and spoke as if from the bottom of a deep pit. "And when the Heavens lie dark and the earth crumbles, even the End will cease. What lies beyond is unknowable."

Ling Qi let out a breath of relief as her dance came to a stop, and the chill faded. "Thank you for answering, teacher."

"You do not understand, my words cannot express the truth without dealing you great harm," Zeqing said as the wind died and her human form spun into existence from snow and wind, floating serenely a few meters from where Ling Qi stood. "But that is fine, you are too young for such understanding yet."

"You know, for once, I have no complaints for being told that," Ling Qi murmured, rubbing her arms through the fabric of her gown.

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I dare say she shouldn't know such loss yet.
She'd known material loss, she'd known self inflicted loss, she'd known deprivation and isolation.

She doesn't know the loss of the loss that comes from having things to lose yet.
Its the "so what" given to Chu Song. You can't really understand that without experiencing it. Loss of status, wealth and kin. Death.

Ling Qi murmured, rubbing her arms through the fabric of her gown. She still felt chilled. "Still… Zeqing, do you think I chose wrongly, in that dream?"

"I cannot understand fully your reasons for distress," the ice spirit replied, her blood red lips unmoving. "I can only say this. Take what you desire, and cling to it fiercely, because nothing is forever."

Ling Qi was silent. The words resonated, and yet…. What did she desire?

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Yeah, of course Zeqing literally can't comprehend having a problem with that. She's making progress that she can even recognize that Ling Qi is distressed!

What do you want, Ling Qi?
Grab it, hold it tight and love it with all your heart because it too will pass.
Thats her Home I think. She's deep down, acutely aware that she's going to outlive her mother by a wide margin at least, that her friends will have responsibilities that drive them to far flung places and even now some of her friends are left behind on the climb.

"Are you done talking about boring stuff with Big Sis yet?" Hanyi called, her voice jarring Ling Qi from morose thoughts. Hanyi ran over to them atop the snow, her pale blue feet not making a sound or disturbing a single flake.

"Yes, we're done," Ling Qi said, putting on a smile for the little girl as she turned away from her mentor. "So, what did you want to show me?"

"Momma showed me how to make flowers!" Hanyi chattered excitedly, grasping her hand to pull her along. "I made a garden, you gotta see!"

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:3

For reference:

Article:

A frost flower is formed when thin layers of ice are extruded from long-stemmed plants in autumn or early winter. The thin layers of ice are often formed into exquisite patterns that curl into "petals" that resemble flowers.

Frost flower formations are also referred to as frost faces, ice castles, ice blossoms, or crystallofolia.

Types of frost flowers include needle ice, frost pillars or frost columns, extruded from pores in the soil, and ice ribbons, rabbit frost or rabbit ice, extruded from linear fissures in plant stems.

The formation of frost flowers is dependent on a freezing weather condition occurring when the ground is not already frozen. The sap in the stem of the plants will expand (water expands when frozen), causing long, thin cracks to form along the length of the stem. Water is then drawn through these cracks via capillary action and freezes upon contact with the air. As more water is drawn through the cracks it pushes the thin ice layers further from the stem, causing a thin "petal" to form.

The petals of frost flowers are very delicate and will break when touched. They usually melt or sublimate when exposed to sunlight and are usually visible in the early morning or in shaded areas.

And some sample images becuase they're gorgeous:

The grove was eerie in its somber quiet, but under the light of the full moon, she found herself mastering the first steps of the Curious Diviners Eye art as easily as she breathed. She didn't need the Bloody Moon, there were other phases after all.

...Yet, in between the lines of her new art, she read a whisper of history. Of a man who loved knowledge, and exulted in its spread. A man who could parse a hundred thousand futures, and choose the one he wished. A whisper of Tsu the Diviner, first king of the Emerald Sea. It was a faded thing, an echo bouncing back for the thousandth time, but it still made her wonder. How had that man's descendents become what they did?

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Seems a little split between Hidden and Guiding Moon isn't it?
Also a pertinent question: How didn't he see it coming?

"Very good," Cai Renxiang replied, pausing in scanning the the other document on her desk to give Ling Qi a nod. "Take a seat, we will discuss these matters shortly."

Ling Qi did so, sinking into the comfortable chair which sat across from Cai Renxiang's desk. It was in a very real way, her chair, she knew. Ling Qi appreciated the gesture, given the rather less comfortable seats swapped in for less personal guests.

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A nice touch and a good way to show your minions you appreciate them.

"How is your family faring?" Cai Renxiang asked absently, not yet looking up from her work.

"Mother and Biyu are well. The ah… guests will be arriving soon I think," Ling Qi squirmed in her seat a bit at that. She still remembered her liege's blank expression before she had made that request.

"Say it plainly, Ling Qi," the other girl chided. "Do not show weakness, they are your new household. If even their clan head is ashamed of them, then it will lend credence to your enemies words."

"Your right, it's unfair of me," Ling Qi replied with a grimace. "I am still surprised you went along with this so easily."

"Should I ascend to Mothers seat, I will do far more to upset those in power," Cai Renxiang replied. "Such minor scandal should serve well enough for training purposes."
Ling Qi shook her head, that was just such a….Renxiang-like thought that it made her want to laugh. "Hmph, your really not bothered by their old profession at all, are you?"

Renxiang glanced up at her, one eyebrow raised. "It is an unpleasant function, but there are many such. Shall I spit upon the men who dredge the sewers or those who collect dung to fertilize the fields?" The dark haired girl drummed her fingers briefly on her desk. "...Though perhaps like those men, their duties might be unnecessary in the future. A thought for another time."

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Ling Qi does feel bothered hmm. Too nearly her fate once upon a time.

I've to wonder how Renxiang thinks those tasks might be rendered unnecessary without some pretty drastic alterations to humanity.
Its worrying really.

"Disciples from our years tournament are largely underranked I believe," Ling Qi replied. "Not by much in many cases, but they are. I do not believe you should concern yourself with anyone below the rank of Eight Hundred Fifty."

"And if they are attempting to deceive others on their ability?" Cai Renxiang asked, opening the first scroll.

Ling Qi pursed her lips. "...I do not think anyone would do so for such a low rank. If they are common born, the loss of resources would not be worth it, and if not then the rank would likely shame their families if kept for too long."

"That was my conclusion as well," Cai Renxiang replied. "I am glad to see you are thinking of such things.

"Thank you," Ling Qi replied, briefly dipping her head. Li Suyin had actually been the one to point that out to her.

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Basically everyone's going to be leaping up HARD.
And heh, Ling Qi simply sees no shame at all in biding her time indefinitely to challenge up a hundred ranks in one shot, her only concern was the resources.

I made notes about a few people who could potentially challenge you in the upper ranks, but… I could not get much information from those above eight hundred."

"A task for next month, when you have access to visit either Bai Meizhen or myself," her liege replied absently scanning the scroll. "Yes, this will be useful."

There had been a flurry of challenges in the last week or two, she knew Meizhen had moved up to Seven Hundred Ninety Two.

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So invite someone lower rank to socialize, which gives them an excuse to wander around the upper ranks?
Not sure how the movement controls work.

]Soon you will meet your opponent and begin making your plans for the challenge. How many CP would you like to assign to the challenge? 3 is considered low, while 10 is considered fairly high at your rank.
Your target currently has 37 CP
Current CP: 20

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You know...I don't think anyone knows we have 20 Contribution Points yet. They're expecting 10. I.e. wagering 10 CP on the challenge is basically "all in" for a new Inner Sect disciple.

 

[ParticipantAward]

We probably need a better sample size to determine how good our stuff really is. Remember that most of the people we call enemies have a major advantage over Ling Qi.

• Ji Rong has better talent and a comparable backer.
  
• Sun Liling is from a ducal background.
  
• Chu Song and Yan had at least a year over her.
• Also, remember that people who don't have a major advantage over Ling Qi are completely forgotten.
  
• Most importantly: Ling Qi is famous for her mist, and lacks the free art pool that nobles will gain from their backgrounds. Anybody who wants to deal with her will prepare something, even if it's just perception art.

But yeah, armor attributes are derived from base attributes and it's important to consider how double-dipping affects things.

 

[Orkus Majorkus]

Yeah, for all of Han Jian's issues, he's probably the least fucked up of the high nobility.

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Also that it is Jiao saying being strong but having your brain broke aint all it's cracked up to be, given Mama Cai alluded to him "losing his way" and maybe missing out on White.

 

[Mathematicae]

Also a pertinent question: How didn't he see it coming?

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My guess is Tsu saw it coming, but all the other futures were even worse.

 

[archangis]

Wonder why they don't use treated paper instead, it doesn't seem the kind of major event which requires a first time imperishable record.

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Well, first the elders are probably expected to live up to 800 to 900 years old at the least.

This means that records should similary be scaled up in life expectancy. While paper is good, and I have multiple book that are more than one hundred year old, those books are also not in a perfect condition, far from it. If the sect expect to keep record at least for as long as the elders present live, paper is simply not good enough.

Secondly jade might be more economical than paper. Fields for paper (I think ancient china was using rags mixed with bushes, right ?) are a significant cost as they need to be warded to keep the spirits out. Jade on the other hand can probably mined alongside the spirit stones that are industrially mined by the empire.

 

[Erebeal]

Well, first the elders are probably expected to live up to 800 to 900 years old at the least.

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Most of the elders are indigo or violet. That's more 500 to 600 if I recall correctly?

 

[veekie]

"Very well," the other girl replied crisply. She flicked her wrist, and a folded envelope appeared in her hand. "Take this before you leave then. The auction for your item was completed. There is a formation seal on the receipt holding your stones."

Ling Qi blinked as she took the envelope, only for her eyes to widen at the sum shown on the paper within. "..This much?" she asked faintly.

"I do have a connection or two, even under Mothers restrictions," Cai Renxiang pointed out dryly. "Spend wisely, wealth is no excuse for waste."

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Ling Qi: "Imma go huff the whole thing within months!"

"...If my gown uh… ate part of a spirit, is that normal?" Ling Qi asked tentatively.

Cai Renxiang looked up, putting the scroll in her hands down with a thump as she scrutinized Ling Qi. "If the spirit were attempting to tamper with it's weaving, then yes," she replied bluntly. "What manner of arrogant creature did you encounter that it would ignore the warnings woven into the fabric?"

Ling Qi thought of the King and his disregard, as well as what had come after. "...One I won't miss," she grunted. "I just wanted to make sure nothing was wrong."

Cai Renxiang shook her head. "Your luck is strange. In any case, though your gown is apprentice work, the thread of Liming has given it the same protection Mother gives to her personal works. It is unwise to tamper with them."

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...of course Shenhua wove DRM into the thing.
Thats more reaction than we've seen out of Renxiang at any other time than dealing with Shenhua.

Also the shadow of a White WOULD in fact, be arrogant enough to try. I'm curious that nobody else ever mentioned that there were warnings woven in. Too weak to perceive them?

The next day, Ling Qi found herself traveling up one of the many winding paths that connected the cliffside dwellings of the Inner Sect Disciples. She had already delivered the notice of challenge to the Sect offices for processing, but it was generally polite to go and speak to the person you were challenging. Not doing so was a deliberate snub, which wasn't her intention at all. Sp with some small time open in her schedule, she found herself going off to pay a visit to Disciple Eight Hundred and Twelve

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I wonder how many new disciples make that mistake. I mean, I could see Ji Rong thinking nothing of accidentally doing it.

As she made her way up the steep winding path toward Yu Nuan's abode, she caught the sound of music floating down from above. Though the notes were deep in tone, Ling Qi recognized the sort of aimless playing that was not any particular piece, but a simple expression of feeling. She lowered her head as the notes thrummed in her bones. There was anger, passion and spite aplenty woven into the sound, but the base of it was something more like determination or rather defiance. Unfocused as it was, it presented no theme or image in her thoughts, but she could recognize the skill behind it.

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So...basically like a Super Robot series theme song?

She was the better musician, Ling Qi thought, but the gap was not that large. As she thought that Ling Qi crested the top of the path and caught her first sight of the other girl. Yu Nuan stood with her back to the path, looking out over the cliffs edge. She was tall and dusky skinned, like Ling Qi herself, though not quite as much so. She wore boyish clothes, loose, baggy pants of heavy black cloth, tucked into sturdy boots, and a similarly loose shirt of dark purple silk that billowed on her lanky frame.

Her hair drew Ling Qi's eye, it was cut short, barely reaching her ears, and retained the natural curling that Ling Qi had tamed out of her own locks early last year. "What's up then?" She was shaken out of her thoughts by Yu Nuan's gruff voice. Ling Qi met the girls green eyes as Yu Nuan looked back over her shoulder. Ling Qi paused a moment, to stare at the jade studs piercing the girls lower lip and right eyebrow.

Ling Qi offered a perfunctory bow, which prompted the other girl to turn around and somewhat irritably return it. Ling Qi spotted a flash and a whiff of smoke as the lute Yu Nuan had cradled in her arms vanished. A polite pleasantry was on the tip of her tongue, but she met the girls eyes again as they straightened up, and it died. "I am Ling Qi, I wanted to let you know that I am challenging you for your rank."

"Yu Nuan," she greeted curtly narrowing her eyes. " What's your ante?"

"Six Contribution Points," Ling Qi replied neutrally, folding her arms below her chest. "I hope that Senior Sect Sister will accept."

"Quit that," the girl shot her an irritated look. "I saw that tournament, don't Senior Sect Sister me."

Ling Qi huffed, but relaxed her posture. "Yu Nuan, will you accept my challenge?"

"Obviously," the girl replied, warm wind stirring around her. Ling Qi heard, or rather felt, the faint stirring of notes, discordant and heavy. She was sure that the girl across from her could here the faint sound of Ling Qi's own soul. "You'd probably beat me in a fight, but that's not the kind of challenge your expecting, is it?"

"You're not wrong," Ling Qi replied quietly. "I haven't really compared myself to a peer in music, since I started cultivating."

The other girl let out an inelegant snort and shook her head. "I'm glad I'm not a year younger. Still, there's one thing I gotta ask."

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Ancient China Punk Rocker get.
Also for those who don't know, a Lute looks like this:


Its an ancient guitar.
Definitely pretty street courtesies.
She saw the tournament, so she has a pretty good idea we could beat her.
Also she won top 8 last year. Hmm, assuming a typical route, she'd have spent 2 years in the Outer Sect and 1 year stuck at the lower ranks of Inner Sect.

Seems that challenging her specifically to test ourselves in music might have won some small respect.

"I may not mind answering," Ling Qi replied neutrally.

"Why'd you sign up with the Cai?" Yu Nuan asked bluntly. "Just hitching your ride to the best horse?"

Ling Qi felt a twinge of irritation at the question. "Would there be anything wrong with that?" She replied neutrally. "...Cai Renxiang is a good liege to serve, though. I agree with her intentions." She wasn't sure how well it would turn out in practice but… she'd gotten a look at the ugliness of the old ways. She couldn't imagine Cai Renxiang ordering something like that.

...She couldn't say the same about her mother though.

The other girl pursed her lips, giving Ling Qi a scrutinizing look. "...Thanks for being honest," Yu Nuan let out a short laugh.

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Thats respect loss avoided. We did hitch to a good horse, but its one we can live with ourselves doing.

"My turn," Ling Qi replied irritably, giving the girl a mild glare, a cool breeze blew, and the sound of a distant flute was audible, even to Ling Qi's ears. "What's your problem with the Cai, you another one like Chu Song?"

"Nah, the Big Cai crushed that lot on purpose," her opponent replied, squaring her own shoulders as a ripple of heat rose from her skin, warding off the chill. "Me and mine, just incidental. You can rage against the machine, but if it bothers to notice, you'll just get crushed."

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Just collateral damage. And indeed, she's more...realistic than Chu Song. Won't do your cause much good if you got flattened for challenging. Must be an interesting counterpoint to her use of Fire.

"S'fine. One way or another, we'll understand each other by the end. That's what the music is about, isn't it?" Yu Nuan replied with a dismissive wave. She turned back to face the cliff as she finished speaking.

Ling Qi stared at her back for a second. She could take it as rude if she liked… but she wasn't sure she did. "I'll look forward to it," she said softly, letting her feet lift off from the grass. She still had a lot of cultivation to do, as always.

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So hmm...different styles of music.
Ling Qi uses hers to deliver basically bad news beautifully.
Yu Nuan uses hers to hammer a message that you don't want to hear, in your face?

Later that day, she found a neatly printed page slipped under her door when she emerged from the meditation room to quench her thirst. The challenge had been decided. It would be a contest of composition. They would each compose a new piece over the next three days, and then present it to the Elder overseeing the challenge. After presenting in turn, they would then vie directly against one another, to see whose message was the stronger.

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I have to wonder how a rockoff between a flute solo and a guitar would work. Lets see now.

And now for discussion:

Also, some minor WoG:

• We can't get LWM because Zeqing thinks it would be unhealthy for us to cultivate both arts. If she wanted to make us actually Hanyi's older sister it would be fine though.
• People can get promoted from the military into the Inner Sect, and that's what fills up a lot of the lower ranks.
• Nobles would generally be expected to not spend too long in the sect, unless they're going career. 5-8 years would be long.

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-Zeqing's sure gotten a lot more careful with mortals now. Internalizing LWM on top of FSS would basically make us too much like her, and she knows its not a good thing.
-Military promotions...so basically you got all those stuck at Yellow with Argent Arts hammered into them, then breakthrough to Green on deployment before being promoted on meritorious service after they finish the Argents?
-Loose upper cap on 4 years huh? Is Xiulan's sister going career?

Oh, so that's why when I hear Chinese it sound like they're just repeating the same three sounds over and over.

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Tonal languages. Its hard to 'click' unless you were raised in it. You need both ear and tongue practice

 

[Erebeal]

-Military promotions...so basically you got all those stuck at Yellow with Argent Arts hammered into them, then breakthrough to Green on deployment before being promoted on meritorious service after they finish the Argents?
-Loose upper cap on 4 years huh? Is Xiulan's sister going career?

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Well, given that her sister was good enough to get into the Core Sect she's probably intending to stay for longer, yeah.

Regarding military, this was all we got on discord:

Spoiler: discord

Black NoiseLast Friday at 9:55 AM
Mm @yrsillar mind explaining the inner sect a bit?
Are there more ways to get into it than the yearly tournament?
YrsillarLast Friday at 9:56 AM
Yeah you can get promoted from the military
Black NoiseLast Friday at 9:57 AM
... Does that account for the majority of yearly intake?
nathsLast Friday at 9:57 AM
is there a maximum age on the inner sect?
YrsillarLast Friday at 9:57 AM
On the lower end, yeah
keeps a churn in the bottom one hundred going or so going
ErebealLast Friday at 9:58 AM
so a lot of the lower end is good officers being given some time off to focus on cultivation and training to try to get to green or so?
YrsillarLast Friday at 9:58 AM
pretty much