Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

[Valmond]

In general the local ascended beings get their way. This is fairly subtle and deniable in the case of the Emerald Seas but was rather more abrupt and striking when it comes to the Western Territories. That's not to say that cultivators can't push back an ascended level entity (just look at the Golden Fields) but its difficult and will be the work of generations.

Looking at the Cai we have Shenhua as a rather Peaks' focused cultivator but her daughter is immediately shifting to be more of an ES sort of cultivator and surrounding herself with Sun and Moon cultivators as confidants. She even may be getting insights about how you need to support each person as an individual and treating them as tools makes things worse for everyone.

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Sure, but the Moon is not a local ascended being.
And the point is not about ability to push back, cultivation is everything about pushing back against the world and making your mark.
But when we saw behind the mask, we saw Dreaming as more than just the moon, spreading far beyond the empire in different guises.
Shenhua, or others, might see what is happening in ES as going against the Moon (what with the temples and stuff), while it's barely a flip in the radar for Dreaming Moon.

 

[JohnnieBoy123]

Sure, but the Moon is not a local ascended being.
And the point is not about ability to push back, cultivation is everything about pushing back against the world and making your mark.
But when we saw behind the mask, we saw Dreaming as more than just the moon, spreading far beyond the empire in different guises.
Shenhua, or others, might see what is happening in ES as going against the Moon (what with the temples and stuff), while it's barely a flip in the radar for Dreaming Moon.

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The eight maidens are the faces that the Moon presents to the Empire as a whole and the Dreaming Moon in particular appears to be mostly focused on the ES. There is vastly more to the Moon than the eight maidens, with the Moon as a whole being a global phenomena, but the facets are much more local.

That's not to say that the Dreaming Moon is particularly concerned about the loss of the Dreaming cults. That's clearly not the case. Additionally the degree to and manner in which the Dreaming Moon is connected to the wider Moon is also unclear and I'm pretty sure Ling Qi is physiologically incapable of understanding it as she is now (even though the Hidden Moon came out and told us how it works).

Saying that seeing behind the mask was a deeper understanding of the Dreaming Moon unconnected to the Moon is rather premature. I strongly suspect that she was finding moon facets for other places and would have fried her brain like an egg had she seen the Moon as a whole (thus the Dreaming Moon gently making us stop). Though I suppose the Hidden Moon's comments mean that there's no real difference between "Dreaming Moon being more than just the moon" and "The Moon is more than just the Dreaming Moon"

 

[Valmond]

The eight maidens are the faces that the Moon presents to the Empire as a whole and the Dreaming Moon in particular appears to be mostly focused on the ES. There is vastly more to the Moon than the eight maidens, with the Moon as a whole being a global phenomena, but the facets are much more local.

That's not to say that the Dreaming Moon is particularly concerned about the loss of the Dreaming cults. That's clearly not the case. Additionally the degree to and manner in which the Dreaming Moon is connected to the wider Moon is also unclear and I'm pretty sure Ling Qi is physiologically incapable of understanding it as she is now (even though the Hidden Moon came out and told us how it works).

Saying that seeing behind the mask was a deeper understanding of the Dreaming Moon unconnected to the Moon is rather premature. I strongly suspect that she was finding moon facets for other places and would have fried her brain like an egg had she seen the Moon as a whole (thus the Dreaming Moon gently making us stop). Though I suppose the Hidden Moon's comments mean that there's no real difference between "Dreaming Moon being more than just the moon" and "The Moon is more than just the Dreaming Moon"

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I'm, not sure what you think i am saying.
Six said that had they been born/created in the polar nations they would have been sun aspected instead.
There's lot more to the moon than just the Phases, more than Ling Qi, or readers, know. And Dreaming is clearly not just a Moon thing.
And seeing behind the mask is a deeper understanding, just not necessarily much deeper.

Also, i think saying that Dreaming Moon, or Moon in general, is somehow ES focused thing is way premature.
There might have been strongest cult presence in ES, because of the Weilu and later the Hui, but i doubt rest of the empire would not see dreaming as important, or motherhood, or knowing things, and i am certain everyone is concerned about Grinning, even if only in the"oh Spirits what next" way.
Jiao is from the Peaks and he is a Hidden Moon cultivator.

 

[corblimey]

The book Ling Qi read about the phases of the moon in the library sounded Peakaboo flavored. It disdained the Dreaming and Motherhood phases.

 

[Valmond]

One book does not a trend make.
And just because the rulers/academics have certain opinions of a specific great spirit, does not mean the peasants share those views because the peasant has very different concerns about the world to a ruler or academic.

Also link?
I can remember one story about Mother Moon, but that seemed to be less about the Moon herelf, and more about the followers having too much fun in public.

 

[Yun]

Going off our debriefing at court



and Shenhua's actions against the Dreaming cults, it sounds like she destroyed the Old Ways as political institutions and everyone assumed that this would make the Great Spirits either hostile or, at best, indifferent to her. Yet her daughter's Moon retainer finds and kills a minor enemy from her past as well as provides her with an excellent diplomatic opportunity. This suggests that the Moon and Sun are offering Shenhua an olive branch to have their traditions be part of her new order.

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Hm. While that is probably what Meng Diu sought to imply with her wording the reality is that while individual faces like Six might care about the shrines being destroyed the Dreaming Moon is more than flexible enough to roll with the mortals using their gifts to destroy the Dreaming cults, which is ignoring that as a quasi celestial body the Moon will always have mortals supplying them qi.

Like this update has Bao Qian echo a fundamental insight that the Dreaming Moon shares, and is the type of thing that will remain regardless of Shenhua does to change the ES.

"Yes, we were," Bao Qian said, recovering his aplomb as he moved off to place his own marker. "Really, as important as the work of grandmasters and their followings are important, its a must to listen to the trends among mortals and common cultivators too. Few will admit it, but even high art arises from the milieu of wider culture, and the diversity of that is one of Emerald Seas strengths."

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"Small things are not irrelevant things, and together, even the smallest dreams may bloom in the firmament," echoed Dreaming.

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[corblimey]

One book does not a trend make.
And just because the rulers/academics have certain opinions of a specific great spirit, does not mean the peasants share those views because the peasant has very different concerns about the world to a ruler or academic.

Also link?
I can remember one story about Mother Moon, but that seemed to be less about the Moon herelf, and more about the followers having too much fun in public.

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it's from the main story. Can't look for it right now. Ling Qi looked for info in outer sect library about the different phases of the moon. It was sometime after the Zhou test where she met Xin and got moon patronage. She talked to Xuan Shin there. The book was a post An publication for noble cultivators. Grinning and Bloody were described in their new roles, MoI investigators and government approved killers for state justice. Half moons were good for diplomats. Mother and Dream moons were silly things that aren't important.

We know from a sidestory that mother moon is very important in everyday life, particularly to mortals who need fertile crops and healthy children. Nobles probably rely on doctors more.

 

[Valmond]

So fairly recent propaganda trying to enforce a certain viewpoint, instead of one describing common beliefs.
There seems to be something of a trend of minimizing influence of spirits in favor of imperial institutions.

 

[corblimey]

So fairly recent propaganda trying to enforce a certain viewpoint, instead of one describing common beliefs.
There seems to be something of a trend of minimizing influence of spirits in favor of imperial institutions.

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It was the go to book we were given in the Sect about the Moon Phases. It's not the universally accepted truth everywhere. If we went to the temple in the nearby sect town the priest would emphasize different aspects probably. But at the very least it was the first year study material in the main Sect of ES which is aligned with Emperor An and the Cai duchess. I wouldn't dismiss it.

 

[Valmond]

It was the go to book we were given in the Sect about the Moon Phases. It's not the universally accepted truth everywhere. If we went to the temple in the nearby sect town the priest would emphasize different aspects probably. But at the very least it was the first year study material in the main Sect of ES which is aligned with Emperor An and the Cai duchess. I wouldn't dismiss it.

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Sects are imperial institutions, any introductionary texts they are going to hand out to students are going to be, if not outright propaganda, atleast aligned with imperial dogma.
There may be truths hidden in there, but if they are trying to push for Bloody Moon as the phase of justice, then it clearly is, at minimum, very biased source and not to be trusted without careful verification.

 

[corblimey]

Sects are imperial institutions, any introductionary texts they are going to hand out to students are going to be, if not outright propaganda, atleast aligned with imperial dogma.
There may be truths hidden in there, but if they are trying to push for Bloody Moon as the phase of justice, then it clearly is, at minimum, very biased source and not to be trusted without careful verification.

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So do you believe Immortals in the Peaks don't disparage Mother and Dreaming Moons?

 

[Grigori]

Bao Qian frowned. "For me, Yinhui is a friend and associate, but it would feel strange to call them family. I suppose it is foolish to try and apply one template to all situations though."

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But considering the size of his family/clan, how distant his more immediate family is and the difference in domain I'd think family means something very different for him anyway. Interesting topic to see brought up, definitely the sorta peek into his headspace we'd need to go any further in a ship.

Also really cute to see they way she convinced Hanyi to go play rather than be bored in an attempt to appear dignified. Feels like a classic way for a parent to handle their eldest.

"Really, as important as the work of grandmasters and their followings are important, its a must to listen to the trends among mortals and common cultivators too.

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Don't think it's important enough to need it said twice but I'm loving how thoughtful this discussion is. Seems a great followup on rr's focus on mortal family and household staff, seeing the worth in individuals so easily dismissed.

 

[Valmond]

So do you believe Immortals in the Peaks don't disparage Mother and Dreaming Moons?

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So very much not my point.
I do not know how most immortals in the peaks think about anything, but more importantly, what immortals think =/= common viewpoint.
Mortals are the majority.
My point was that the book given to us is not reliable measure because it contains knowledge we know to be inaccurate, and the Sect, as a Peaks (and Shenhua) aligned organization, will not be going against the Emperor/Empress or Shenhua in their teachings.

 

[Ayashi]

The product of rising standards of living under the rule of Cai Shenhua, I presume. The time before -- during the consolidation of power under the Cai, the purging of dissidents and Hui remnants, the paranoia and war-torn paradigm under the Hui -- saw people devoting themselves to war and the necessities of survival. With the expectation of safety, then, comes the desire and inclination for art and culture and the money to pursue it.

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Cai mom and her takeover is not old enough to have resulted in such a change in social mores.
I think it's rather instead due to the influx of new nobility from the Great Sects system. They would need some way to flaunt they new power, money, influence or even just existence. Someway that doesn't rely on old connections. And something that is effectively : " look at how good I am at finding other talented youth in our great lands" seems perfect for the newly produced Barons and such lowly noble families with otherwise little to noting to call their own.

I would agree that lately it probably also saw some traction from up above lately precisely due to Shenhua's Purge and hence her administration's needs for new local talents but iirc the timeline here that's something that came afterwards and only reinforced the new trend rather than created it.

 

[Valmond]

Well, the Meng have a strong musical tradition from Grandmistress Lei already, so it's not like culture is coming out of nowhere.
More prosperity might just allow for pre existing patronage systems have more prominence.

Though the idea of new clans trying to establish themselves does seem plausible.

 

[corblimey]

So very much not my point.
I do not know how most immortals in the peaks think about anything, but more importantly, what immortals think =/= common viewpoint.
Mortals are the majority.
My point was that the book given to us is not reliable measure because it contains knowledge we know to be inaccurate, and the Sect, as a Peaks (and Shenhua) aligned organization, will not be going against the Emperor/Empress or Shenhua in their teachings.

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well I don't disagree.

We can still make tentative conclusions about the beliefs of the Peaks' immortals who may not be a big portion of the empire population but are still influencial as their leaders. Dreaming Moon tend to be a disruptive force for a stratified society like the Peaks. It also pushes to break decorum which is very important there. Mother Moon could be disdained in what seems to be a chauvinistic society. Her role in neutering the dragons Peak society so admire could also play a role.

 

[Valmond]

well I don't disagree.

We can still make tentative conclusions about the beliefs of the Peaks' immortals who may not be a big portion of the empire population but are still influencial as their leaders. Dreaming Moon tend to be a disruptive force for a stratified society like the Peaks. It also pushes to break decorum which is very important there. Mother Moon could be disdained in what seems to be a chauvinistic society. Her role in neutering the dragons Peak society so admire could also play a role.

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In a very broad and general sense, yes, maybe.
But the official stated beliefs are not always the same as privately held beliefs, and trying to push too hard against Great Spirits is unlikely to go well (just ask the dragons).

 

[Faceless]

You think that we are going to find some unified moon arts or songs that explain more about the moon as a whole
I am geting some moon Cell vibes from (fate - type moon )

 

[storryeater]

I'm maintaining my assessment, because if Shenhua really tried to stamp out the old and build a new cultural identity for the province, everyone that doesn't directly benefit from the new identity have no reason to adopt it and every reason to make life hard for Shenhua, and while she can replace the staff of a ministry branch, she can't replace the various greens in a count family that manage the land and secure the border, and if she tried it would start a new civil war that Shenhua doesn't get a clean victory like she did with the Hui.

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That is exactly what I said though? That she would not necessarilly be deposed, but that it would however make things really inneficient at any case.

 

[yrsillar]

Okay guys, so as some of you may know I'm trucking away at ideas to make the mechanical systems underlying this quest more comprehensible and engaging. I have gone through a couple ruleset ideas at this point and discussed things with a few people, but before I go any further I would like to get some feedback from you, the players.

What sort of mechanics do you think would be engaging and fun to interact with, how much input do you want on arts development and cultivation in general. What things about the current system do you dislike and what parts of it do you like?

Basically I'd like a read on what the thread wants out of the game part of this project to help me better design the future system.

 

[TotallyNotEvil]

Must it be an entirely original system?

Otherwise, running it on GURPS or GENESYS could be a good choice.

 

[sergit]

I'm not sure I can provide much insight. I've been happy with the current system, even if it seems like you've been having a bit of a hard time managing things in it lately.
I imagine you're planning to simplify things, to remove mechanics rather than to add them?

 

[Valmond]

Personally i'm here for the narrative and have largely left any mechanical stuff for the people who want to do all the math.
I don't really know what the specific ruleset to help with that though.
And, yeah, GURPS probably has systems that could be used, it usually has.

 

[Orkus Majorkus]

Art modifications are extremely dull for the payoff of a situational boost in a fight we won't see in real time for six months if at all. I'd rather do away with their votes and have more integrated scenes.

 

[Blademaster]

I think that, for comperhensibility, it might help to replace the letter based tiers with number ranks. Personaly, I think the letters make it harder for players to gauge the level the tiers represent, and the gap between different rankings. I think replacing it with some numbered scale could make such things more clear, or perhaps some other description(like tiers more clearly related to level, such as novice... adept... master or low... high... huge) it can makes gauging things clearer then letters whose meaning depends on the context, and the gap between them is not always clear.

These are at least my personal thoughts, and I tend to have a more mathematical way of thinking, so others might feel differently