NoxOfUmbra
Shadow of the night
- Location
- Colombia, South América
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Luo Zhong is the guy from the hunting parties that put us in a no-win social situation.
Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)
- Thread starter yrsillar
- Start date
- Original Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Count Scion whose lands border the Golden Fields. Sorta stood up for us first time we met all the count scions at Renxiang's party. Invited us to a hunting party to scope us out and did the most gentle messing with us imaginable that people are annoyed about despite it being babby's first noble peer shenanigans and Ling Qi actually had a good time at the party. Is trying to get engaged to Bao Qingling to help repair some damaged relations when the Bao screwed the Luo over in a land deal and not doing a graceful job of it which is a more legit reason to kinda not like him.
I have suspicions on why he is so dead set on marrying Qingling but that's the jist.
- Location
- Chicago
- Pronouns
- She/They
Same sixiang, same.
Sirrocco
Pedantic
Heck - invite turtleboy. He's really very much in the "wants social links but doesn't know how to cultivate them" camp, and with the right prompting I suspect that Wang could arrange for his entry to be gentle.
he is also very good on defense, which is both great there and something Wang would appreciate.
Cultivate them
- Pronouns
- They
What is your theory, pray tell? I'm curious.
Luo Zhong's messing with Ling Qi was not "the most gentle imaginable" but i will agree it was tame compared to how far he could have pushed it.
The problem i have with him is that the way he operates puts "testing" his peers above capitalizing on opportunity to make good impressions.
Out of all the Emerald Sea clans LQ met at the end of Forge the Luo made a pretty good first impression, Luo Zhong squandered that opportunity to build good relations and decided it was better play mind games with a new baron.
His tendency to put his peers on the spot to learn their "mettle" works well when you are briefed on your target, if you do that to someone from a big clan you can learn a lot about their political positions, but doing it to a newly minted baron with the hear of the provicial heir was not a good idea.
It's also a style of politcking that could be disastrous in the context of first contact with a new foreing polity, putting someone you do not know the standing of in a no win social scenario is one of the dumbest ways to go about diplomacy.
- Location
- Finland
Luo Zhong has managed to cement himself as an asshole in my mind.
No doubt he is smart, talented, and potentially even honorable as empire understands it, but also an asshole.
He now has the change to make a, 3rd, i think, impression on us.
He might be able to sell himself as a potential ally and an asset, if he can stop being an ass for a bit. But he is now in a situation where he does have to sell himself, instead is simply present himself and his clan as being available, unlike, say, the Wang who we are actively inviting to join us, or the Meng who are already in, or the Bao who are fairly neutral so far but have a pretty solid in through Bao Qian.
No doubt he is smart, talented, and potentially even honorable as empire understands it, but also an asshole.
He now has the change to make a, 3rd, i think, impression on us.
He might be able to sell himself as a potential ally and an asset, if he can stop being an ass for a bit. But he is now in a situation where he does have to sell himself, instead is simply present himself and his clan as being available, unlike, say, the Wang who we are actively inviting to join us, or the Meng who are already in, or the Bao who are fairly neutral so far but have a pretty solid in through Bao Qian.
- Location
- South Africa
I believe that he misunderstood the situation. He wasn't trying to win Ling Qi's favor so much as he was testing her: thus a no-win situation is far more sensible. For most Barons I believe that this would work because it is not the established noble who needs to curry favour but the upcoming baron. Thus it is sensible for the noble to be able to read the baron first and evaluate him/her before giving out any favours. If the process offends the Baron s/he is not in any position to respond to the offense, and this reaction in and of itself is useful.
Luo Zhong's mistake was not realizing that Ling Qi is no ordinary baroness and has/will have enough influence to actually respond forcefully to negative impressions.
- Location
- Finland
Ling Qi wasa direct vassal of the ducal heir, pointless mind games should have been an obviously bad idea.
Either try to position to take the newcomer down, make yourself someone they want/need to rely on, or ignore them.
Mindgames just produce bad feelings with no actual benefit.
edit-
The mindgames themselves are not necessarily a stupid thing, they are part and parcel of politics.
It's the pointlesness that is the issue, "gaining someones mettle" is not a good enough reason to create a bad impression on a ducal vassal.
I don't think Luo Zheng is stupid, or bad at politics, but he does seem over confident and made a bad call on someone he had zero actual read on.
Either try to position to take the newcomer down, make yourself someone they want/need to rely on, or ignore them.
Mindgames just produce bad feelings with no actual benefit.
edit-
The mindgames themselves are not necessarily a stupid thing, they are part and parcel of politics.
It's the pointlesness that is the issue, "gaining someones mettle" is not a good enough reason to create a bad impression on a ducal vassal.
I don't think Luo Zheng is stupid, or bad at politics, but he does seem over confident and made a bad call on someone he had zero actual read on.
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- Location
- The Star Kingdom of Manticore
Lou, to me, seems impatient and committed, even if the idea is a bad one. Take our social, he didn't need to test us then. He could have waited to figure us out. There is also his proposal to Bao Qingling. He's way to committed to that bad idea and is too impatient to look for other options. Maybe he does like Qingling, truly. But that certainly is not the impression he is giving.
Overall some who is impatient yet commits to ideas. That doesn't seem like the best combination of character traits. Not the worst, but certainly not the best.
Overall some who is impatient yet commits to ideas. That doesn't seem like the best combination of character traits. Not the worst, but certainly not the best.
- Location
- Washington
As gentle or ungentle or WHATEVER as anyone thinks it was, it straight up was not "no win."
The way he treated us was very dumb, but isn't the problem. We could brush that off as short-sighted and a foolish but manageable. It is his treatment of Bao Qingling is what makes me dislike him. The impression I got of that situation is something he has been pushing at for a long time and hasn't taken no for an answer. This is a pretty shitty thing to and I don't want someone like that around us. At some point he will be denied something in the negotiation and can we trust him to just move past it? I don't think so.
- Location
- Finland
On testing someones mettle, let's contrast Luo Zhen to Meng Diu.
Luo Zheng, invites us to a social gathering comprised largely of his people, publicly challenges us, and has (or atleast allows) one of his right hand people publicly attack us (however minor the social attack was, i do still consider it an attack).
Meng Diu comes to our gathering, challenges us in private, and then asks us for a favor while showing public support to one of our endeavours before we even start to deliver on the favorwe promise.
Now compare their respecitve positions.
Meng Diu, 5th realm ambassador to the ducal court, and Luo Zheng, a 3rd realm whatever he is.
How highly placed is Luo Zheng? Not an ambassador obviously, pretty sure not the heir, i honestly can't remember his exact status, but nowhere near Meng Diu.
There's a clear difference in how the two decided to play politics.
edit-
As a further contrast.
Meng hate the Bai, like, they really, hate, the Bai.
We are publicly allied with the Bai. In fact, we are so closely allied with the Bai that there are Bai who are less allied with the Bai.
And for that Meng really don't like us either.
I don't think Luo have any specific reason to dislike us.
And still the Meng were far more polite and respectful when dealing with us.
Luo Zheng, invites us to a social gathering comprised largely of his people, publicly challenges us, and has (or atleast allows) one of his right hand people publicly attack us (however minor the social attack was, i do still consider it an attack).
Meng Diu comes to our gathering, challenges us in private, and then asks us for a favor while showing public support to one of our endeavours before we even start to deliver on the favorwe promise.
Now compare their respecitve positions.
Meng Diu, 5th realm ambassador to the ducal court, and Luo Zheng, a 3rd realm whatever he is.
How highly placed is Luo Zheng? Not an ambassador obviously, pretty sure not the heir, i honestly can't remember his exact status, but nowhere near Meng Diu.
There's a clear difference in how the two decided to play politics.
edit-
As a further contrast.
Meng hate the Bai, like, they really, hate, the Bai.
We are publicly allied with the Bai. In fact, we are so closely allied with the Bai that there are Bai who are less allied with the Bai.
And for that Meng really don't like us either.
I don't think Luo have any specific reason to dislike us.
And still the Meng were far more polite and respectful when dealing with us.
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Arranging things so that Ling Qi would have to take diciding votes for group activities when she does not know the group is a no win situation.
Carefully creating situations where your guest is put on the spot again and again is not smart.
Ling Qi's opinions and biases are coloring this exchange but she is right in this case Luo did not need to test her agressively, the fact that his first instinct was to do so is a red flag when it comes to complicated diplomacy like what we are doing with the white sky.
You should not do these kinds of political maneuvers without a clear goal, "testing the new advisor of the provincial heir" is not worth the potential for bad blood this could have created.
I almost expect Luo Zhong to have been reprimended when he sent his findings about LQ's character to his fammily, he used a very risky way to test her.
- Location
- Finland
I agree with you.
The problem is, that Luo Zhong considered himself the dominant player, when compared to a head of a clan who is also a direct vassal, and advisor, to a ducal heir.
And i think he was wrong in that.
He overplayed his hand, and he played his hand in a way that makes other players want to play against him instead of with him.
Never be the person who has to go asking for things from other people, always be the person other people have to come ask for things.
Due to his actions, the Luo are now in a position where they have to ask the Wang for something, so they can then ask the Ling for something.
While the Wang are in a position where both the Luo and the Ling are asking for something.
And the best part is, that our boy Wang Chao did not do a damn thing to get into this position.
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The goal of politics, especially in the new Emerald Seas, is to get everyone to work together well. This is a difficult task at the best of times and having people decide they'd rather play stupid games only makes it harder.
If he asks us to include the Luo in diplomacy, the proper response would probably be to say that we would be happy to talk to them but he is not an appropriate representative. That's a pretty big insult to him but you don't get invited to the adult's table when you behave like a child.
If he asks us to include the Luo in diplomacy, the proper response would probably be to say that we would be happy to talk to them but he is not an appropriate representative. That's a pretty big insult to him but you don't get invited to the adult's table when you behave like a child.
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Luo Zhong didn't put us in no-win situations. Every vote in that arc had a win option according to our goals of making friends, we just consistently choose not to be sociable until the end. We preferred to isolate ourselves during the hunt, interacting with a handful of peers instead of trying to be part of the party. Luo Zhong put us on the spot and Ling Qi didn't like that but he wasn't malicious about it so much as allowing her to introduce herself. She was confrontational and the voters chose to be impressive over being liked when being disliked was our problem. The Luo party didn't feel that way because of Luo Zhong, it was all on us.
I think we got off on the wrong foot, much like with Wang Chao when he first came off as a judgmental idiot, which we now like him for. My read is Luo Zhong is someone Ling Qi could quite like if they got to know and understand each other, they both like being the tricksy teacher helping their friends flourish. I think they could both benefit from being more like each other, Ling Qi in being more sociable and Luo Zhong being more considerate. He's probably one of the connections I most want to make during our last month in the Sect.
Luo Zhong has a problem with empathy. Not in that he's an asshole but he doesn't get that other people feel differently from himself, as seen with how he became frustrated with Bao Qingling when she didn't care about his mutually beneficial political marriage. This is just like how Ling Qi doesn't get how other people can be satisfied with being powerless, or Xiulan feels about mediocrity. Luo Zhong is a very practical noble who much like those two wants to excel on his chosen path, but he has doesn't really get others wanting different things. And that's okay! That's something he needs to work on. But the fact of the matter is he gave Ling Qi what he himself would have wanted, a challenge, the chance to make an impression, gain respect and build connections.
I think we got off on the wrong foot, much like with Wang Chao when he first came off as a judgmental idiot, which we now like him for. My read is Luo Zhong is someone Ling Qi could quite like if they got to know and understand each other, they both like being the tricksy teacher helping their friends flourish. I think they could both benefit from being more like each other, Ling Qi in being more sociable and Luo Zhong being more considerate. He's probably one of the connections I most want to make during our last month in the Sect.
Saying it's the voters fault is not a good argument : we cant know how the other options would have gone, you are taking the most optimistic view of votes not chosen and ingnoring context.
The "competition may breed resentment…" part in the first vote was extremely important at the time LQ could not afford ennemies, there was no war on to build reputation with martial accomplishment.
In the time before the second vote was called what Ling Qi started the next update with was realised : not being bait gives ammo to our detractors.
As soon as LQ realised she was being tested the voters went full damage mitigation. It makes sense when you realise that at the time the next opportunity to make good impressions broadly was irl and ingame years away.
What Luo Zhong did was stupid, when the opportunity came to ask him for expertise for the training events we are putting together with Wang we chose not too because he can not be trusted to act in good faith and thinks politics are a zero sum game (in a world where there is uncharted territory and unclaimed ressouces, sharing is a lot simpler than irl).
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Since I was the first person to both publicly defend Wang Chao as adorable and good and complain about Luo Zhong being a dink, I think it's safe to claim the title of foremost, and most esteemedest, expert in the field of Ling/Wang/Luo relations.
*ahem*
To start, I think Luo Zhong's conduct was perfectly reasonable in his own context. And I don't mean from his own perspective, I mean the context of his social status stacked up against others at the hunting party and the hunting party itself being fairly informal as gatherings go. If he wants to needle a low-born but rising guest he invited a bit, that's his prerogative. It's not inappropriate for his station and the venue. He acted within the bounds of propriety, however minorly irritating it was for us at the time.
My issue has historically been that it's the kind of behaviour that makes him a low-value investment of our time. He doesn't have to be in the wrong to be wrong for us. He wasn't in the wrong, but it was signaling that he was comfortable in his position and that connecting with us wasn't a major priority of his, or at least doing so quickly wasn't. Luo Zhong didn't grasp the difference in our time tables.
That said, the current circumstances give us all the power in the dynamic. Not with the Luo as a whole, obviously. But as to whether Luo Zhong, personally, ends up their intermediary? Yeah, we're holding all the cards there, and since we know a bit about the kind of aspirations he has, it's potentially solid leverage over the dude. If we're inviting involvement from the count clans, it's infeasible to not have a Luo representative in our group, owing to their territory being on the border. We have an opportunity to try extracting debt from that representative in his appointment, and that's basically favourable to us on all levels.
We have a lot of indirect power over the Luo's engagement in the project if their representative is only their representative because of our good graces. It gives us some leverage over Luo Zhong, because he has an incentive to both please his clan and us if he wants to retain his posting and the esteem it brings within his clan. Having some influence over a count clan's rep to bring them more in line with our own pace and judgement of things is very valuable. There's a real risk of being outmaneuvered by the Counts here, and this would be a small countermeasure.
Phrased a different way, I want to extract political rent from Luo Zhong as an individual, if possible. Privileging him by supporting his bid for the posting, if that is what he's after here, means a constant drip of favour and influence with him. It's not totally one-sided, because he would be offering valuable insight into the Emerald Seas side of the politics involved, but it is structurally slanted in our favour. What we've seen of Luo Zhong's personality suggests that he's not overly well suited to traversing the gender politics of the south. If he wants to do more than just spy on the other count clan reps, and he's ambitious enough that he does want more, then he'll have to lean on us opening doors for him. He literally can't do it on his own.
In this situation, we are the one with all of the influence who is holding the door to juicy political ties. If he wants them, he can play our game, and we can benefit. There's no reason to turn him away. Him being ill-suited for the job is actually beneficial for us because it gives us more, and more ongoing, control over our dynamic. As long as he isn't catastrophically bad, which I don't expect him to be, we get a captive advisor on Emerald Seas politics whose loyalty to his personal ambitions ensures his cooperation with us.
Not that I don't expect him to try wriggling out of the pinch he'll be in, but the cultural terrain doesn't favor him there short of legitimate character growth that forces him to be more considerate of other people's perspectives, which would make him solid not-awful friend material. He's free to slip that snare whenever he wants, heh.
In conclusion, Luo Zhong pursuing a political posting in our and Renxiang's project opens him up to manipulation and strips him of the automatic seniority he leaned on to hassle us, previously. I'm more than willing to make him work for the approval he needs from us, and you should be too.
*ahem*
To start, I think Luo Zhong's conduct was perfectly reasonable in his own context. And I don't mean from his own perspective, I mean the context of his social status stacked up against others at the hunting party and the hunting party itself being fairly informal as gatherings go. If he wants to needle a low-born but rising guest he invited a bit, that's his prerogative. It's not inappropriate for his station and the venue. He acted within the bounds of propriety, however minorly irritating it was for us at the time.
My issue has historically been that it's the kind of behaviour that makes him a low-value investment of our time. He doesn't have to be in the wrong to be wrong for us. He wasn't in the wrong, but it was signaling that he was comfortable in his position and that connecting with us wasn't a major priority of his, or at least doing so quickly wasn't. Luo Zhong didn't grasp the difference in our time tables.
That said, the current circumstances give us all the power in the dynamic. Not with the Luo as a whole, obviously. But as to whether Luo Zhong, personally, ends up their intermediary? Yeah, we're holding all the cards there, and since we know a bit about the kind of aspirations he has, it's potentially solid leverage over the dude. If we're inviting involvement from the count clans, it's infeasible to not have a Luo representative in our group, owing to their territory being on the border. We have an opportunity to try extracting debt from that representative in his appointment, and that's basically favourable to us on all levels.
We have a lot of indirect power over the Luo's engagement in the project if their representative is only their representative because of our good graces. It gives us some leverage over Luo Zhong, because he has an incentive to both please his clan and us if he wants to retain his posting and the esteem it brings within his clan. Having some influence over a count clan's rep to bring them more in line with our own pace and judgement of things is very valuable. There's a real risk of being outmaneuvered by the Counts here, and this would be a small countermeasure.
Phrased a different way, I want to extract political rent from Luo Zhong as an individual, if possible. Privileging him by supporting his bid for the posting, if that is what he's after here, means a constant drip of favour and influence with him. It's not totally one-sided, because he would be offering valuable insight into the Emerald Seas side of the politics involved, but it is structurally slanted in our favour. What we've seen of Luo Zhong's personality suggests that he's not overly well suited to traversing the gender politics of the south. If he wants to do more than just spy on the other count clan reps, and he's ambitious enough that he does want more, then he'll have to lean on us opening doors for him. He literally can't do it on his own.
In this situation, we are the one with all of the influence who is holding the door to juicy political ties. If he wants them, he can play our game, and we can benefit. There's no reason to turn him away. Him being ill-suited for the job is actually beneficial for us because it gives us more, and more ongoing, control over our dynamic. As long as he isn't catastrophically bad, which I don't expect him to be, we get a captive advisor on Emerald Seas politics whose loyalty to his personal ambitions ensures his cooperation with us.
Not that I don't expect him to try wriggling out of the pinch he'll be in, but the cultural terrain doesn't favor him there short of legitimate character growth that forces him to be more considerate of other people's perspectives, which would make him solid not-awful friend material. He's free to slip that snare whenever he wants, heh.
In conclusion, Luo Zhong pursuing a political posting in our and Renxiang's project opens him up to manipulation and strips him of the automatic seniority he leaned on to hassle us, previously. I'm more than willing to make him work for the approval he needs from us, and you should be too.
Taken in isolation, I don't mind the Lou hunt. High expectations for how someone from a Long Qi's background should act, perhaps, but the sect is a learning ground for everyone. He should get the benefit of "still learning" too.
It's his insistence on the marriage proposal that really gets me. What part of "no" does he not understand? That, more than anything, makes me dislike him. Pushing yourself on someone who has a negative impression just makes it worse.
I'd also imagine that it hurts him with Ling Qi, given her intimacy issues.
It's his insistence on the marriage proposal that really gets me. What part of "no" does he not understand? That, more than anything, makes me dislike him. Pushing yourself on someone who has a negative impression just makes it worse.
I'd also imagine that it hurts him with Ling Qi, given her intimacy issues.
- Location
- Finland
Luo Zhong was perfectly within rules of propriety, and in a vacuum there was nothing wrong with his actions.
But we are not in a vacuum, and there is zero spherical cows in sight.
He failed to understand how different Ling Qi was to the kind of barons he was used to, he did not consider how much higher Ling Qi punches (politically) compared to her technical political status, or Ling Qi's status as a ducal vassal (or the attention she is getting from two other ducal houses, and from having the Bao actively court her by offering her one of their more talented sons).
Luo Zhong has shown himself bad at the kind of political and social calculus you need to succeed if you have ambition outside your own clique.
Maybe he'll learn, maybe he won't, don't care.
I have no issue working with the Luo as a clan, but i do not want to work with Luo Zhong anymore than we have to.
Both because he has shown himself bad at the kind of politics we are about to engage in, but also because of his persistent pursuit of Bao Qingling, that does not show a picture of someone who can play ball when others won't just buckle under his family influence.
But we are not in a vacuum, and there is zero spherical cows in sight.
He failed to understand how different Ling Qi was to the kind of barons he was used to, he did not consider how much higher Ling Qi punches (politically) compared to her technical political status, or Ling Qi's status as a ducal vassal (or the attention she is getting from two other ducal houses, and from having the Bao actively court her by offering her one of their more talented sons).
Luo Zhong has shown himself bad at the kind of political and social calculus you need to succeed if you have ambition outside your own clique.
Maybe he'll learn, maybe he won't, don't care.
I have no issue working with the Luo as a clan, but i do not want to work with Luo Zhong anymore than we have to.
Both because he has shown himself bad at the kind of politics we are about to engage in, but also because of his persistent pursuit of Bao Qingling, that does not show a picture of someone who can play ball when others won't just buckle under his family influence.