Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

[LucidProp]

I don't want to leave a black mark on the aspiration of a girl whose Domain is Purity, and whose dream is a perfect world. Let her have this.

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Damnit, you just had to tug at my heartstrings.

Seems like I'm going to take the risk and go for logic and reason then. Renxiang and Liming deserves nothing but the best, and while this is riskier, I'm willing to take that risk in hopes of keeping the dream alive.

 

[flazeo25]

I'm in support of shock therapy, theirs really something nasty going on inbetween the lines for Limang and Ren, growls are probally only sound she can make due to stiching. Question is why the mulation.

 

[Garlak]

Honestly, I'm not sure I'm viewing this as a "Lesser evil or no? Certainty or no?" choice thing.

This might just be... well. A choice of honesty and/or sincerity. It's not about "Do we take the sure thing?" It's about "Do we point out the truth to our friend?"

Are we going to be honest and truthful to our friend. Rather than "Do we hit below the belt in order to win the thing?"

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By which I mean, "Choosing to point out the Liming thing" is the honesty and sincerity choice.

Rather than the "Do you suckerpunch Cai Renxiang in order to win the challenge?" choice.

Be honest and truthful, and point out the Liming thing. Rather than try to muster every bit of rhetoric you can. Because I feel like trying to use rhetoric will be trying to argue a lie -- or at least, rather, trying to avoid an unpleasant truth.

Because that's what it would be. Trying to avoid an unpleasant and hurtful truth.

So, I'd rather be sincere and honest to Cai Renxiang here.

And then help them afterwards.

 

[Neshuakadal]

By which I mean, "Choosing to point out the Liming thing" is the honesty and sincerity choice.

Rather than the "Do you suckerpunch Cai Renxiang in order to win the challenge?" choice.

Be honest and truthful, and point out the Liming thing. Rather than try to muster every bit of rhetoric you can. Because I feel like trying to use rhetoric will be trying to argue a lie -- or at least, rather, trying to avoid an unpleasant truth.

Because that's what it would be. Trying to avoid an unpleasant and hurtful truth.

So, I'd rather be sincere and honest to Cai Renxiang here.

And then help them afterwards.

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As much as I think we should go with option one I don't think the argument can be made that either option is more honest or sincere than the other. Arguing with logic and rethoric is just as honest and sincere as pointing out the largest hole in this dream.

 

[CornyBones]

I genuinely believe using her most traumatic memory to break her ideal fantasy is a bad idea. I think it should be saved as a last resort, not as an opening. And using the tools that *she herself* taught to us shows a great deal more about our relationship and trust.

 

[sergit]

So, this dream of a "happily ever after" of CRX basically excludes Liming altogether. Either CRX has a cetain distaste towards liming, or the architect of the dream saw Liming as an inconvenience and went out of their way to separate Liming and CRX.

I bet Liming must be pretty upset about CRX forgetting she exists, even in a dream. I think if we remind CRX that Liming exists, and that she should not be forgotten, may nudge CRX to change her perspective on Liming. With a bit of luck, Liming will appreciate that we're telling her owner "Don't forget about your clothing-based spirit beast, she has no one else. If you abandon her, she'll be truly alone". Ideally that will make Liming aprove of us a little more.

So I'll vote in favor of reminding CRX that she already had a fitting session.

 

[TotallyNotEvil]

Yeah, I have to agree that the first option looks better, much as the talky-talk option is enticing.

Being puppetEd by Liming against a 4th realm in the middle of their domain is going to absolutely wreck CRX, both physically and emotionally.

It's like reminding her of everything bad about it, but in the most damaging way possible.

 

[Audacious]

The moment we think of pointing something out, I'd bet it'd change right under our noses and Renxiang would be none the wiser because of course her perfect society has no flaws.

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"Did something urgent turn up on your inspection, Baroness?" Cai Renxiang asked, not looking up from the document on her desk. The brush in her hand continued to move quickly and precisely, filling in the text-a set of promotion announcements, it looked like.

"Nothing of the sort," Ling Qi said carefully stepping inside. She wasn't quite sure enough of what she was dealing with yet. "I have my eyes out still though."

Her wisps were still outside.

Cai Renxiang frowned a little. "You are early then, our tea luncheon is scheduled sixty five minutes hence. There is a great deal of work to do yet on the transfer."

"Transfer?" Ling Qi asked.

Finally Cai Renxiang looked up, exasperated. "Yes, Ling Qi, the transfer to the capital. Mother sent her announcement that she would be retiring to closed door cultivation just this morning. Do not tell me it somehow slipped your mind."

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Yeah I don't see this dialogue from CRX not already tripping alarms in her head that LQ would trip with #FactsAndLogic. I think CRX normally would've gone in on LQ for letting that slip especially with her weak deflection of "it doesn't seem real".

It seems like Hannz is at least partially right and the only way to guarantee success here is going to be the cold water over the head option. I'd love to be more confident in option 2 working, but I just can't.

I don't think risking our companions' lives is acceptable when we can't guarantee the spirit ISN'T playing games with CRX's mind a level we can't perceive.

I'm also worried about what happens if Liming decides that time is up and she's TAKING DIRECT CONTROL. I don't want to ruin the between Liming-CRX-LQ any more than we have to, but I think that's just the cost of playing the game here.

[] Remind Cai Renxiang that has already had her fitting

 

[Mephi]

Hmmmm....
My vote will end up going to which ever one is better for Liming and CRX relationship. Traumatic or otherwise... I feel that's bringing up Liming. You don't ignore your friends, and id like to see them heal.

 

[Humbaba]

Liming needs hugs.

At least it looks like Ling Qi's gown likes her, judging by Liming's reaction. It will be nice once it awakens and we can talk to it.

 

[Lena27]

What happened at the first fitting? Was that when we went to Lin Hai's place?

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No. It was when Shenua showed up during the outer sect tournament. When CRX looked like a beaten whore the next day. IIRC.

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No and no. It was when CRX was 6 years old and met Shenhua for the first time. CRX had just broken through to Red and Shenhua exposed her to the full presence of a White. CRX nearly died and has been traumatized ever since. She described that day as her childhood ending. After suffering the backlash of her mom's presence, CRX was then fitted to Liming. It was a very invasive, traumatic process.

 

[EternalObserver]

You know what? At this point, I don't care whether we succeed or not. At the moment, I'm interested in going to the direction I want Ling Qi to go to.

 

[dycouza]

I mean she literally can't have this, and she'll remember that as soon as she wakes up anyway.

Tackling it ultimately requires her to start from the position of "how do I heal from Liming" rather than just dreaming that it never happened.

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By reminding her of Liming here of all places we remind her that what has been done to her can never be undone. Renxiang defines herself as Purity, the creator of perfection, yet what we'd be doing is break her belief that the past is surmountable. We're in her subconscious, talking to her innermost self in a way that's practically out of Inception so we have to be careful about the ideas we suggest.

We know that dreams matter. When Zhengui sacrificed his it cost him far more than some idea in his head. It cost him the inspiration he had invested in it. I'm scared that doing something similar to Renxiang won't destroy her dream of a perfect world but leave a seed of pain in it. And while she always knew that her ideal was distant she disagrees with Ling Qi in that pain is an inextinguishable constant of reality. Cai Renxiang can do better than the past. She may not be able to change it, she may not even be able to imagine a world where she emerges beyond Liming but that's right now. The future she strives for may hold things she cannot even conceive of, but she must believe in it.

 

[Erebeal]

I think that option 2 fails to follow through on the narrative setup, fails to address what is clearly the critical element of desire at the heart of the dream, and fails to follow through on our Domain principles to give Renxiang the blunt honest advice that she prizes from us out of a desire not to be personally responsible for hurting her.

It'll be dramatic and hard ofc, but, like, so was Zeqing's tribulation

 

[Thor's Twin]

I would be more hesitant to take the first option if GG wasn't also here in the group. While the first option's trauma will be highly unpleasant, we can at least know that GG was brought partially for the purpose of providing some security to CRX's emotional state. It wouldn't be ideal, but it is certainly a mitigating factor in favor of Option 1 in my eyes.

 

[GlassMask]

BTW @yrsillar did something much better and arguably harsher than a trap vote here. He made a fair, and genuinely tough vote choice on such an important issue Each side has its own obvious positives and negatives. Good job!

 

[Erebeal]

By reminding her of Liming here of all places we remind her that what has been done to her can never be undone. Renxiang defines herself as Purity, the creator of perfection, yet what we'd be doing is break her belief that the past is surmountable. We're in her subconscious, talking to her innermost self in a way that's practically out of Inception so we have to be careful about the ideas we suggest.

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It's literally the opposite of surmounting the past. It's not her dreaming that she can fix it, it's dreaming that it never happened.

 

[sergit]

I believe, CRX is in for a very rude awakening onee way or another. In both cases, the awakening factor is "Remembering Liming". In case 1, we remind CRX of Liming and how that contradicts her fantasy. In case 2, Liming angrily barges in and reminds CRX herself, then takes control over and turns the tream into a nightmare. Well, if the rethorics angle fails, anyways. Rethoric success might mean CRX remembers Liming on her own, and breaks out of the fantasy at her own, leisurely pace, unweaving the dream as her level of comfort dictates.

Odds are, Liming crashing the dream violently to awaken CRX is what would have happened anyways, if we had not picked CRX as the person we'd assist.

 

[Zeful]

Ok, so this is a really tricky vote. We've got really interesting questions raised about Liming - but we're a long way from having any answers.

My feeling though is that, looking at the dream and our experiences with it, a lot of this stuff is really just set-dressing. When Ling Qi broke out of her tribulation, it didn't just involve her going "wait this doesn't make sense" - it involved her actually confronting her desires and trauma. Asking why did I do these things? What motivates me? What do I actually want?

The key element here that stands out is not Renxiang's convenient life, and that they've all got successful careers - it's Liming. Renxiang dreams of not having been broken at 6 years old. Of getting to redo her fitting at a time when she is actually old enough to handle it. For Ling Qi, the decision that defined her life was deciding to run away from home. It is understanding her decision there and how it motivates her that is critical to understanding Ling Qi.

For Renxiang, that moment was her fitting to Liming. And she desperately wishes that it had never happened.

My feeling is that ignoring that just means we're not really addressing the dream, or what's going on.

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Not really. Ling Qi's desire was to never be alone again, to always have her precious people in arms reach, and how she confronted that doesn't read to me like actually addressing her hang ups and trauma, to quote from Royal Road (as that arc literally just happened there):

[...]
Ling Qi felt her vision blur. Meizhen was her first and best friend, the hand that had given her the first and most important boost into the world of Immortals. What sort of terrible world would it be where Ling Qi couldn't return her feelings? Yet…. it felt wrong. Meizhen, who idolized her aunt and who was working hard to be useful to her clan, would just drop everything for her? Meizhen, who had herself firmly rejected the idea of being closer than friends in the Outer Sect?

And what about the others? Would Cai Renxiang really so easily abandon the things she talked about? Would Suyin abandon her place in the Sect, her mentor, her projects, or Su Ling her revenge? Xiulan and Han Jian were both dutiful children to their clans. Why would they...?

No, this was wrong. This fantastical scenario... This...

"I need to go," Ling Qi breathed out. She stood up, and Meizhen stepped back, her eyebrows raised in alarm.

"Qi? What is the meaning of this? You just returned," Meizhen said. The shorter girl looked up at her with confusion and alarm on her stoic features. "Is something wrong? Please tell me."

At the edges of her vision, the room began to warp. "This isn't right," she said, pushing Meizhen's hands away. "This… This whole thing isn't right."

Her friend looked hurt as if Ling Qi had struck her, and Ling Qi's resolve wavered. "Why? We are together. Everyone is together, and there is no reason for us to ever part. What could be wrong with that?"

"Life doesn't work like that," Ling Qi hissed, the pain in her head redoubling.
[...]

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This reads like Ling Qi's instinctive pushing against intimacy is what saves her, as it's her doubting her "relationship" with Meizhen in the dream that causes her to actually consider the desires of her friends and realizing how selfish her greatest desire is. This is likely why the song she gave Xiulan ended up being so powerful for them both, Ling Qi already confronted that Lan-lan would not always be around, and resolved to be better than the selfish girl she was in Zeqing's dream.

 

[Garlak]

Hmmmm....
My vote will end up going to which ever one is better for Liming and CRX relationship. Traumatic or otherwise... I feel that's bringing up Liming. You don't ignore your friends, and id like to see them heal.

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Thing is, I'm not so sure they are friends. Neither views each other as a friend.

For that matter... neither chose to come together and join in a spirit pact. It was forced upon them, by Cai Shenhua.

This isn't a matter of "You can't just ignore the person you befriended and partnered up with!" Because these are people who were forced together, by an outside party.

 

[MintyFresh]

I am extremely interested in liming now. Just what is she? Maybe shes a spirit of the dream stiched together by Cai into something else? Also how wild is that, we have sub reputations with CRX! I wonder if we can get reputations with each one of her object spirits lol.

 

[Neshuakadal]

Hmmmm....
My vote will end up going to which ever one is better for Liming and CRX relationship. Traumatic or otherwise... I feel that's bringing up Liming. You don't ignore your friends, and id like to see them heal.

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I would agree that something is seriously wrong with the relationship between CRX and Liming. It's been wrong for a very long time and the relationship is so wrong that the fix Shenhua decided on was sewing the spirit's mouth shut.

My best guess is that something went horrifically wrong during the fitting. Even from Shenhua's point of view. We've seen how Shenhua deals with problems. If Liming was such a problem that a solution was needed I would've expected Shenhua to just destroy the dress and try again. The fact that Shenhua didn't and choose a solution that left the spirit obviously imperfect, if Ling Qi can see the rough patches it's imperfect, leaves me deeply concerned about how tightly CRX and Liming have been tied.

 

[Yun]

[] Remind Cai Renxiang that has already had her fitting

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This is a battle of the Past being immutable regardless of how much a human wishes to change it.

[] Use every scrap of reason and rhetoric you can muster to open her eyes.

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This has Ling Qi challenging Renxiang with the flaws of the world, and why it cannot be reality. This is liable to be a running battle with Black Sky Yearning as much as CRX I suspect.

 

[thamuzz]

On one hand, this could be read as certainty vs high risk high reward.
Another could be looked at as what our relationship with CRX is: trusted ally who will tell her the truth or friend who cares about her. CRX herself would immediately state her preference for the former, which is one of the arguments for why she might need the later.
A frustrating choice.

 

[Garlak]

I would agree that something is seriously wrong with the relationship between CRX and Liming. It's been wrong for a very long time and the relationship is so wrong that the fix Shenhua decided on was sewing the spirit's mouth shut.

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The 'something' that is 'wrong' with it is the fact that... well. There wasn't. A relationship, I mean.

It was all entirely something forced upon both of them by Cai Shenhua.

Or so I'm assuming, anyway.

So, yeah. Maybe they don't have a great relationship. But that's because they didn't have a choice in the matter. This isn't two estranged friends, for whom you just have to figure out how to regain something that was lost or corrupted or damaged. This is two people who were brought together in a very scorched-earth manner to begin with.

My best guess is that something went horrifically wrong during the fitting. Even from Shenhua's point of view. We've seen how Shenhua deals with problems. If Liming was such a problem that a solution was needed I would've expected Shenhua to just destroy the dress and try again. The fact that Shenhua didn't and choose a solution that left the spirit obviously imperfect, if Ling Qi can see the rough patches it's imperfect, leaves me deeply concerned about how tightly CRX and Liming have been tied.

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Hmm... Maybe what happened is that Cai Shenhua broke Cai Renxiang, when Renxiang came to see her. And so, given that Shenhua had just broken Renxiang into pieces... Well. That made it both harder and easier to 'fit' Liming to Renxiang. On the one hand, with Renxiang so broken, Shenhua could put her back together how she wanted.

On the other hand, the fact that Renxiang was broken and was going to have to be put back together... well. I'm guessing that that meant that she had to do something to Liming, too.