That IS charging for it, just under politically acceptable terms, so you're basically saying "we can't charge for it, but what we can do is charge for it."
Exactly, that sort of polite fiction is exactly how this needs to happen. And part of that fiction is probably the fact we don't advertise the Tapestry or ours, or are very pointed about how magnanimous we were in giving it up. Nothing would cement our status as new kid on the block like holding onto the tapestry would- because it would be seen as a petty attempt for young blood to assert legitimacy undue to them, while all the old blood absolutely wants the tapestry to assert the legitimacy due to them.
Advertising that we're holding on to this is going to stick in people's craw something fierce, because to us the primary value of this tapestry is realistically in how much other clans want access or to own it. To those clans, it has far more intrinsic value.
I'm honestly a bit confused by assertions that we shouldn't be selling the tapestry because money is so very fungible and something unique should be used for political gains, when like...
Selling it to the Meng involves making significant political gains with the Meng and their vaults are very much deep enough that we under no circumstances have to make do with something as mundane as money in return.
We can still decide that we'd prefer the specific benefits we could derive from the tapestry of course, but we're not really looking at an option to just get a pile of green stones and then never talk with the Meng again.
I just want to keep it because it is interesting.
Favour can be gained by giving access to it, maybe loan it to the Cai for a few decades to keep it of our hair and let them wheel and deal with it.
I mean, in my mind, while money is an option, it's not necessarily the only one. We can negotiate for a trade that may or may not be just as good or equal of value to the tapestry.
I mean, in my mind, while money is an option, it's not necessarily the only one. We can negotiate for a trade that may or may not be just as good or equal of value to the tapestry.
Both Ling Qi and Meng Diu's faction want to have a closer relationship with each other but there currently isn't much trust. My preferred approach would be to just outright give them the tapestry and let them know that we would be happy to receive whatever they feel would be appropriate in exchange. Preferably this would include some sort of suggestion as to what we want that implies that we respect their clan.
The point here isn't really to receive, it's to give. The tapestry continues what started with the unsolicited gift that Meng Diu gave after Hanyi's concert and then escalates it further, thus encouraging them to give us an even greater gift in return. And so both sides get to demonstrate their generosity, power, and wealth to everyone around them. And, if they don't reciprocate, we get to shame them in front of our mutual liege.
Both Ling Qi and Meng Diu's faction want to have a closer relationship with each other but there currently isn't much trust. My preferred approach would be to just outright give them the tapestry and let them know that we would be happy to receive whatever they feel would be appropriate in exchange. Preferably this would include some sort of suggestion as to what we want that implies that we respect their clan.
The point here isn't really to receive, it's to give. The tapestry continues what started with the unsolicited gift that Meng Diu gave after Hanyi's concert and then escalates it further, thus encouraging them to give us an even greater gift in return. And so both sides get to demonstrate their generosity, power, and wealth to everyone around them. And, if they don't reciprocate, we get to shame them in front of our mutual liege.
The problem I see with this is after they give a gift in return we have to give a greater gift back. After all we just established a pattern of reciprocate gift giving. We are not wealthy enough to give a gift back worth more than a gift of this tapestry. So then we fail and we get shamed because of that.
The problem I see with this is after they give a gift in return we have to give a greater gift back. After all we just established a pattern of reciprocate gift giving. We are not wealthy enough to give a gift back worth more than a gift of this tapestry. So then we fail and we get shamed because of that.
The shame on their end would be in a Count clan faction getting shown up by a Baroness. No one expects a Baroness to be able to keep up with an Indigo, so there's no shame in failing to do so.
Both Ling Qi and Meng Diu's faction want to have a closer relationship with each other but there currently isn't much trust. My preferred approach would be to just outright give them the tapestry and let them know that we would be happy to receive whatever they feel would be appropriate in exchange. Preferably this would include some sort of suggestion as to what we want that implies that we respect their clan.
The point here isn't really to receive, it's to give. The tapestry continues what started with the unsolicited gift that Meng Diu gave after Hanyi's concert and then escalates it further, thus encouraging them to give us an even greater gift in return. And so both sides get to demonstrate their generosity, power, and wealth to everyone around them. And, if they don't reciprocate, we get to shame them in front of our mutual liege.
I would like the idea if not for the fact that we do not own the tapestry ... we own 50% of it. And if we are right with how mutch it is worth, we don't realy have the recorces to buy the last 50%. It all kind of depends whats left to loot and how mutch we are willing to loose for favors. The main point for selling it is not that it is the most value we get, but the fact that we can split sones quite easily.
So i holt my opinion on it until we know what the rest of the loot looks like.
Trying to outgift a Count clan is kind of a silly play for a Baron?
Baron's priority is to accrue lasting advantages.
The bloodline tracker makes sense when used as:
-Traded for utilitarian treasures of comparable rarity.
-Traded for access to records of comparable rarity.
-Traded for a major(for a Baron) or significant(for a Count) specific favor to do something we want done but don't have the clout for, which they have no reason to do or not to do.
-Kept as a diplomatic tool to lure in nobles and scholars so we can make connections that don't revolve around "she's a personal retainer of Cai Renxiang".
Honestly "we give you the tapestry you owe us a favor" is one of the ballsier moves we can make here. Probably not advised but it's about the most utility we can get out of it probably.
The shame on their end would be in a Count clan faction getting shown up by a Baroness. No one expects a Baroness to be able to keep up with an Indigo, so there's no shame in failing to do so.
If we have established a reciprocating gift giving tradition than whoever breaks it is the one looked down upon. That's why in cultures that exchange gifts the gifts are usually small. Things the other party knows can be reciprocated.
The idea of just "giving" something so we get a "gift" in return puts the Meng in a lose lose situation. If they give us a gift that they know we will able to reciprocate back then they have completely undervalued the gift we gave them. That looks bad. If they give us a gift that reciprocates the value then they flaunt their wealth at us. That looks bad. And we look bad when we can't reciprocate the value of the gift back.
What you are suggesting isn't gift giving. It's trying to use social pressure to get more value from something than it may be worth. Gift giving is very often about gratitude and respect. What about your idea is based in gratitude or respect? I would rather just auction the tapestry off than do some kind of social pressure game that we are going to take advantage off. If we want to start a tradition of reciprocating gifts than we should do that. Instead of whatever this is.
I kind of have to wonder how many "illegitimate" births are in Ling Qi's tree up to this guy. He had a kid during an affair, her mom was basically disowned for having a pre-marital affair...
Honestly, I'm kinda expecting it this to be up to a vote. We give the tapestry to the Meng, then we let them decide what they deem to be a good equal in return. Then comes the vote of what that favor is.
Honestly, I'm kinda expecting it this to be up to a vote. We give the tapestry to the Meng, then we let them decide what they deem to be a good equal in return. Then comes the vote of what that favor is.
I am not convinced that we should sell it to the Meng. I'd imagine that such a vote is a distance off anyway. Given the value of the loot here we may need official appraisers to get an equitable split. The last one anyone wants is to feel stiff later when they learned the true value of something in this ring. Better get a good idea of what we are dealing with first.
There's clearly part of a sentence, or even paragraph, missing here. Since I can't divine the missing information there I can't change this.
Curiosity was a funny thing, Ling Qi mused, reaching out to touch the shimmering fabric of the tapestry. She'd never cared much for any ancestors further back than her own mother, but she just couldn't fight back the urge to know.
Beside her Meng Dan had withdrawn his hand, flipping rapidly through the pages of the tome in his hand, but she saw him glance up as her fingers brushed the tapestry. Ling Qi felt a little electric tingle in her fingertips and a faint pressure as the object tugged at her qi, she didn't resist, letting the energy flow as if she were activating a formation.
The embroidered names rippled, and the leaves of the great tree depicted shook, whole flocks of birds taking flight from its bows as names blurred by too fast to read. The tingling grew stronger as the names continued to move, seconds ticking by. Five, then ten, then thirty. Ling Qi raised her eyebrows as it went on, it was taking much longer than it had for Meng Dan. She felt the spirit of the tapestry rumble in the spiritual realm, a noise much like the harrumph of an elderly man.
Finally, the names blurred to a stop. Under her fingers was an archaic name, Duosi, connected to the name of a woman, Liangyu. There were many names above and below, so it seemed that he must have been…
Before she could finish the thought or scan other names close by, the fabric under her fingers rippled and the names jerked to the side. From the man's name a single crimson thread tugged itself free, weaving into the fabric to spell out a single word.
'Illegitimate'.
Ling Qi frowned. That was, well about what she should have expected. If there was going to be a tangential connection to her, it would have to be something like that, wouldn't it? Her great however many times grandmother had probably been a handmaiden or a servant who had caught this Duosi's eye. Ling Qi could feel the tapestry spirit practically glowering at her.
"Wow, jerk," Sixiang startled her a little, leaning over her shoulder to stare at the names. "She's still around, pretty sure that makes her more legitimate than a bunch of dead people."
Ling Qi rolled her eyes but smiled withdrawing her hand. "I'm pretty sure you know that's not how this kind of thing works," she said dryly.
The Tapestry let out another spiritual grumble as the names reset, once more showing Tsu and his immediate descendants.
"Indeed not," Meng Dan agreed. "Still, isn't it interesting how even the most unassuming lineages have their ties to the original Kings of the Forest?"
"I suppose," Ling Qi said. "I suppose I'm still a little curious. Is there anything about this Duosi in that book?"
"There are several dozen," Meng Dan replied with a chuckled. "Luckily for you I was able to note the context to identify which one he was." He glanced down at the book, briefly thumbing along the pages before flipping open to a section about a third of the way through.
"Just like that?" Ling Qi asked curiously.
"Could you imagine how long it would take to research anything if I could not navigate my sources instantly?" Meng Dan replied lightly. "There is some advantage to being able to commune politely with book spirits."
"I suppose so," Ling Qi mused. "What does it say?"
Meng Dan hummed, scanning a thin finger along the line of neatly inked characters. "Born under the reign of the third Weilu duke. The fifth son of a general. Married to Liangyu, seventh daughter of the petty king Mulu, a favor to his father. Achieved martial success in the central valley campaigns, subjugating dissident tribes. Granted overseership of a small region in the valley in recognition for his deeds and bloodline," here, Meng Dan's smile became more of a grimace. "Sixty five years into his rule neighboring chieftains presented a suit to their king and he was reprimanded for excessive cruelty against his subjects, causing spiritual pollution in the region, and dishonouring his lady wife. Removed from his position and his son elevated. Died at the age of two hundred eighty seven in the fourth realm, slain on a campaign against the Cloud tribes."
He spoke at a rapid, but easily understandable clip, and Ling Qi found herself slowly smiling. It really was nothing, she thought in amusement. Some mediocre warlord who had never stepped beyond the fourth realm, despite the resources of a ducal house. She chuckled, and Meng Dan gave her a curious look.
"Miss Ling?" he asked, studying her face. "It is not the most pleasant reveal, I agree–"
"No, I'm not distressed or anything. It's just funny, how little things change," Ling Qi said, fighting a laugh. "You know, now I'm a little curious about the other side of the lineage."
Meng Dan, blinked, his smile becoming a little awkward.
"The grip of the past is strong," Yinhui said, startling her a little. The spirit had been silent for quite awhile, perched atop a stack of lockboxes that contained a great deal of jewelry and ornaments. Her blindfolded face was turned toward the tapestry, regarding it with a certain hunger that seemed out of place on her youthful seeming face. "Only truly terrible struggle ever sees it broken."
"You don't necessarily need to break something right away," Sixiang replied, resting their chin on her shoulder. "Time is the enemy of tradition. Even folks who think they're keeping to it will change it a little at a time, same as a dreamer will never dream the same dream twice."
"Well, aren't you getting philosophical," Ling Qi said dryly. "I'm curious though, Sir Meng. You mentioned dissident tribes. What were those, a rebellion of some sort?"
All this talk of petty kings and tribes, it occurred to her that she was still kind of unclear on how the Weilu organized themselves. She'd been assuming it was just the same as now, but with the titles switched out.
"On that matter I can pontificate with some confidence," Meng Dan said graciously. He was still looking at her with considering eyes, despite the easy smile back in place on his lips. "The thing you must understand, Miss Ling, is that our ancestors, the Weilu, were not truly one people. Even the name, Weilu was an imperial moniker, and the conception of them as a single clan quite modern, only becoming truth in the final millenia of their reign."
Ling Qi frowned, eying the names descending from Tsu on the list. She'd thought it odd that the names didn't carry a surname for the most part. "They had a high king though."
"And, great heroes such as the Diviner aside, the position of High King was often more spiritual than secular," Meng Dan replied. "He was the head arbiter between man and spirit, the master of rituals and a settler of disputes between Kings. It is true that he often had significant temporal might, but this was often the cause of achieving the high kingship, rather than the effect of the high kingship."
That still did not sound so different than how things were now, but the demons were in the details, Ling Qi supposed. No doubt Cai Renxiang could give a long lecture, if she liked. "So by dissident tribes, it meant other Weilu, and rather than being a rebellion, it was just the normal shape of things."
"A loyalist under one High King, might be a dissident under the next," he agreed. "We of the Emerald Sea are not like the Bai, who mastered the Thousand Lakes with an iron fisted Queen ruling by rivership and serpentine spies. Nor do our people have the near fanatical community of the Zheng, to allow their lazy anarchy to reign for tens of millenia without visible internal dissent. What many choose to ignore is that the people of the Emerald Seas have always been many tribes. Even after the Sage came, and demanded a King who could kneel to him, this did not change."
"What of the Mason's war then?" Ling Qi asked, shooing Sixiang aside to give her room to sit atop a stack of dusty notebooks. "Why was it so…"
"Because it was a war of belief," Meng Dan said quietly, peering down at the pages of the book in his hand. "It was not merely a thing of petty rivalry and resources, of honor against honor, but an open challenge to the shape of the region's society and structure as a whole. Such challenges only ever end with one side trampled to mud and dust."
As he spoke, Meng Dan's smile faded by inches, and his voice became grave.
"Either the seekers of change are defeated, and their hopes of a different world are broken, or the holders of tradition break, and their way of life disappears," Yinhui said, idly kicking her feet. "But even in victory, tradition weakens with every challenge. It breaks eventually, if not always the way the challengers like. '
"Ideals aren't so easy to break," Sixiang sniffed, folding their legs beneath them to sit in midair. "It's not like it's ever just one big fight."
"You are not wrong," Meng Dan replied with a chuckle. "You can choose to give up bits and pieces, little things to prolong the coming of the 'big fight'. But to resist change forever? You can, after all, ask the ghosts of the Hui how that went."
Ling Qi was silent in the back and forth between them. Knowing such things, was it any wonder that Emerald Seas was a splintered mess? Still she wondered that meng Dan"You know, I've never looked into it, but does anyone know what actually happened to the Weilu?"
"There are many theories, most of them quite fantastical," Meng Dan chuckled. "The facts are that the population who bore clear marks of the Horned lord's blood were shrinking century by century, and the Weilu in turn came together more and more in their secret palaces, leaving administration to their vassals. Then, after ten years of complete silence, all realized that they were gone in truth."
"Then came war, and much knowledge became secrets, sealed in ash and blood," Yinhui said.
"Just so," Meng Dan said. "But, before we go on, might I ask you a question, Miss Ling?"
Ling Qi raised an eyebrow, curious at what he wanted to ask. "You may."
"Her Grace is unlikely to confiscate such things, as other rulers might," Meng Dan said, gesturing to the book and tapestry. "And while I cannot speak for the Meng clan as a whole, I do believe I speak for my Grandmother in saying that our branch of the family would be most interested in them."
"Are you seeking to buy treasure from me already?" Ling Qi asked, cheered by the change in topic.
"Right of first refusal at least, on behalf of my family." Meng Dan said.
"I do have to split this, Xia Lin might end up owning it," Ling Qi pointed out
"If that is your prerogative, I will speak with her," Meng Dan replied.
Ling Qi considered. She had no doubt that she would end up entertaining many offers if she took the item as part of her share… but for that reason, it would take up a lot of her share.
"I think we should review the rest of the contents, before I answer that," Ling Qi said.
"You are certainly practical," Meng Dan laughed. "Very well, let us organize, and I will begin searching information on our erstwhile mountain prince and his lineage."
Sorry guys, this one was getting rather long, gonna need to chop it.
@yrsillar cut off sentence in this one (though remarkably few other issues) :Ü™
I'm going to bring up another unpopular "loot distribution vote" concern. With the quantity of Arts Ling Qi likely to pull out of the ring, we probably should concern ourselves with what kinds of Arts we want, as I expect there to not be any other artifacts of the same kind of tier as the tapestry, and most of the jewelry and other works of art might end up totaling up to a green stone or so just based on sheer volume (though that would be selling them piecemeal over the next couple decades, selling the lot should bring in some number of yellow stones). The random scribblings will be trashed, any intelligible intelligence will likely be handed over to Cai Shenhua (either through Xia Lin, or through Renxiang, which we might vote on)
I bring this up because as someone that actually sat down and looked at how many Arts are needed to support a fief, the requirements scale up nearly exponentially based on the highest tier cultivator the fief has to support, and so the Ling Clan will need both a broad base of arts, and a series of higher realm successor arts to support both future clan members and it's military and economy. So it behooves us to decide on which axis is preferred, so if it does come up we'll at least have rhetoric supporting an initial direction.
You want to pay to duplicate every art pulled out of the ring? Sure, flog off the Tapestry to the Bao to get the money needed to hire a jade carver to copy every art into new jade that you'll need to also buy...
Unless the cost of copying arts doesn't scale with realm, or I'm vastly misunderstanding what you mean by a "100/100 split", I don't see Xia Lin wanting to cut into her profits from the ring to duplicate the arts. Maybe creating some kind of joint trust that Renxiang oversees to timeshare the arts out could work, but that relies on both Xia Lin and Ling Qi's need for the arts is long term, and if Xia Lin isn't thinking long term then she'd be looking at liquid value, at which point neither option I've presented are hapening.
I am so very bemused at the thought of unveiling and using the tapestry any time soon. While Ling Qi is a mere third realm baron. Having Renxiang put under lock and key for the foreseeable future would be best, I think. At least until Ling Qi reaches indigo, receives her viscount title and however getting a city works. She's the Duchess's heir apparent direct retainer. If she doesn't have quite the public celebration for her ascension it would be a loss of face. Unveiling it then with all the important people viscounts and up would be the fastest way to circulate knowledge on the artifact's existence.
Then make it an attraction with a "you must be this tall to ride" and a fee of admission. Make Ling Qi's city a hub of activity from the very beginning, attracting nobles of minimum social standing along with all the benefits of tourism and direct favors it brings.
I am so very bemused at the thought of unveiling and using the tapestry any time soon. While Ling Qi is a mere third realm baron. Having Renxiang put under lock and key for the foreseeable future would be best, I think. At least until Ling Qi reaches indigo, receives her viscount title and however getting a city works. She's the Duchess's heir apparent direct retainer. If she doesn't have quite the public celebration for her ascension it would be a loss of face. Unveiling it then with all the important people viscounts and up would be the fastest way to circulate knowledge on the artifact's existence.
Then make it an attraction with a "you must be this tall to ride" and a fee of admission. Make Ling Qi's city a hub of activity from the very beginning, attracting nobles of minimum social standing along with all the benefits of tourism and direct favors it brings.
I'm in for everything except the fee and requirements.
Well, possibly require some show of good faith and effort to stop people from just wasting time, but that would be more about being polite guest instead of commerce.
The loot distribution vote Will have mountains of salt....
Can we copy the genealogy and sell the information for everyone that wants It . And then sell the tapestry to the meng ?
We can collaborate to spread the information with the meng
