Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Shenhua is known for having made a war against her ducal house because they didn't have a hardcore enough stance against the barbarians, and promptly managed to get all the anti-barbarians factions behind her.

Her formative moment was when her father and brother sacrificed themselves to give words of an upcoming barbarian invasion, and the response from the Hui wasn't extreme enough.

And yet when put in contrast with the Star Children, it looks like whatever her hate is didn't stop her from coopting one of their greatest reserve powers for her own purpose, given the close thematic similarities she seems to have with them and the kinship the newborn one exhibited with Renxiang.

I'm noting that Indigo is strong enough to be able to adventure in the Wall and be capable of fighting most ordinary Khans, and is also the period where she hit her rocket boosters. She also had every reason to go on a rampage down that way after what happened to her family.
 
And yet when put in contrast with the Star Children, it looks like whatever her hate is didn't stop her from coopting one of their greatest reserve powers for her own purpose, given the close thematic similarities she seems to have with them and the kinship the newborn one exhibited with Renxiang.

I'm noting that Indigo is strong enough to be able to adventure in the Wall and be capable of fighting most ordinary Khans, and is also the period where she hit her rocket boosters. She also had every reason to go on a rampage down that way after what happened to her family.

As far as I can tell her takeaway had been Must Stamp Out Corruption instead of Must Kill Barbs, so that would make sense. This is mostly just idle speculation on a White's character though.
 
And yet when put in contrast with the Star Children, it looks like whatever her hate is didn't stop her from coopting one of their greatest reserve powers for her own purpose, given the close thematic similarities she seems to have with them and the kinship the newborn one exhibited with Renxiang.

I'm noting that Indigo is strong enough to be able to adventure in the Wall and be capable of fighting most ordinary Khans, and is also the period where she hit her rocket boosters. She also had every reason to go on a rampage down that way after what happened to her family.
We have no idea if anything she did has anything to do with the star children, just assumption. For all we know Shenhua just has been doing the equivalent of that guy who branwashes muses in the dreamspace to create ressources but with star spirits. Given Liming, that is in fact fairly likely.

We have as much reason to believe the sect can parley with barbarian as to believe Shenhua can. The main thing here is that we are seeing the direct response to an elder being killed, another in coma, and a third wounded, while we haven't seen Shenhua's response a few days after her family was killed.
 
We have no idea if anything she did has anything to do with the star children, just assumption. For all we know Shenhua just has been doing the equivalent of that guy who branwashes muses in the dreamspace to create ressources but with star spirits. Given Liming, that is in fact fairly likely.

We have as much reason to believe the sect can parley with barbarian as to believe Shenhua can. The main thing here is that we are seeing the direct response to an elder being killed, another in coma, and a third wounded, while we haven't seen Shenhua's response a few days after her family was killed.
You forget Shenhua became a White since then, and therefore may well have already had to leave that hate somewhere along her Way. Even if she hasn't yet, I wouldn't be surprised if she was working on it in order to ascend. Whereas the sect elders clearly still have it and don't intend to lose it any time soon.
 
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We have no idea if anything she did has anything to do with the star children, just assumption. For all we know Shenhua just has been doing the equivalent of that guy who branwashes muses in the dreamspace to create ressources but with star spirits. Given Liming, that is in fact fairly likely.

We have as much reason to believe the sect can parley with barbarian as to believe Shenhua can. The main thing here is that we are seeing the direct response to an elder being killed, another in coma, and a third wounded, while we haven't seen Shenhua's response a few days after her family was killed.

The point being is that the question is not "Do we tell them eventually", it's "Do we tell them immediately, when they're so shaken that they're openly going "Yeah this is bad but we fucked the other guy up too and we'll keep doing it." to the disciples beneath them?"

It is expected that we report to our Liege first. That's why we don't get a shot at the upper five hundred ranks. The whole 'We don't have a monopoly on information they discover' is innately baked into our limits of advance.
 
Oof. Really, a collapse? I mean, sure there are certainly many, many, many fires flaring up, but it seems hardier than that. ... I hope at least.
Empires falling apart kind of look fine until they're suddenly not fine.
Mostly because Empires solve problems by being big enough to always be able to channel resources from a safe area to a threatened one.

So they look like they're on top of the problem right till they no longer have resources to redirect and a cascade failure goes off.
Shenhua is known for having made a war against her ducal house because they didn't have a hardcore enough stance against the barbarians, and promptly managed to get all the anti-barbarians factions behind her.

Her formative moment was when her father and brother sacrificed themselves to give words of an upcoming barbarian invasion, and the response from the Hui wasn't extreme enough.
Shenhua's Way and how she dealt with non-Imperials suggests strongly that she didn't consider the barbarians to be any more than the murder weapon - her grudge was with the people playing silly political buggers in a crisis.
 
Ling Qi was specifically approached by the Ice Lady on the Peak of our mission this turn with the offer of sanctuary and got an iron sliver as a token of safe passage. We literally can´t get a more open invitation than that. Remember, The Ice lady recognized Hanyis and our Ice arts.

The Ice Lady did damn well more than recognize our Ice arts. She basically said "how the absolute fuck did that imperial learn that fucking lost technique"
 
[X] Remain silent, wait until your debrief with the Duchess to discuss the matter

Forgot to vote after moratorium.

I think a lot of the talk about retainers being expected to seek their own advantage and their lord's over loyalty to the sect is missing a lot of nuance at best. If we weren't hours but weeks away from a talk with Shenhua, if Jiao were present or they'd taken different actions recently I'd be voting otherwise. But ultimately none of those are true.
 
Empires falling apart kind of look fine until they're suddenly not fine.
Mostly because Empires solve problems by being big enough to always be able to channel resources from a safe area to a threatened one.

So they look like they're on top of the problem right till they no longer have resources to redirect and a cascade failure goes off.

Mhmm... let's see. Just from the top of my head.

Xuan - Seem fine. I think?
Imperial Seat - Waning from a high under An.
Bai - Mildly diminished, minor infighting. Susceptible to a decapacitation strike followed by isolationism?
Alabaster Sands - ???
Golden Fields - Greatly diminished. Doing okay, but probably irrelevant.
Emerald Seas - Recuperating Backwater. Dire barbarian shishigui threat. Possible threat from White Sky Sublime Ancestor?
Western Territories - On fire. Butcher King is making desperation plays with a malevolent spirit.

Soo... it really depends on whether those WMDs go off, I'd say. And how.
 
Empires falling apart kind of look fine until they're suddenly not fine.
Mostly because Empires solve problems by being big enough to always be able to channel resources from a safe area to a threatened one.

Empires collapse because the activities their leadership can engage to strengthen themselves and their realm stop providing more resources than they cost to undertake. It's fundamentally what happened to Rome, a state built on a combination of coinage, soldiers, wheat, and slaves. "Go organize an army and conquer some shit, take a bunch of slaves and loot, use it to pay the soldiers" works wonderfully until you run out of lands that are close enough and rich enough, then you have problems. Specifically, the leadership holds onto power only because they hire soldiers and conquer shit, and that strategy is now just burning through resources at an ever-accelerating pace, and the harder they try the worse things get.

I'm not really sure what this empire's leadership does to get return-on-investment, probably something along the lines of "strongest noble clan wins the title and gets to enact taxes".
 
The point being is that the question is not "Do we tell them eventually", it's "Do we tell them immediately, when they're so shaken that they're openly going "Yeah this is bad but we fucked the other guy up too and we'll keep doing it." to the disciples beneath them?"

It is expected that we report to our Liege first. That's why we don't get a shot at the upper five hundred ranks. The whole 'We don't have a monopoly on information they discover' is innately baked into our limits of advance.
I'm pretty sure this isn't actually true. You may be expected to use information you come into to the best advantage of your house and your liege's house, but only so far as that can fall within the bounds of propriety. Sending off a message an hour or two ahead of making your report might be ok. Sitting on something significant until your liege's house could finish taking advantage is not.*

This situation is unusual in 2 respects that allows us to get away with it. 1. Renxiang is able to contact Shenhua within a couple of hours & 2. Shenhua is the big boss, short of the empress directly countermanding her she is in charge here.

Try this when your liege is a count level house and it would not go well for you (unless they have the ear of the Duchess). Similarly, if this were a matter of weeks rather than hours to contact our liege then not reporting it through the chain of command as well would be a grave error (nothing stops you putting it in both through the chain of command and your personal methods) as if it is important the chain of command can theoretically get any important message through to where it need to go faster.

Not reporting things through the proper channels (Elders) is a risky move that we should only take if we think we have a good reason (we do). Wait to tell your liege lord first is not standard or expected procedure at all and is the sort of behaviour that, on a widespread level, leads to disasters like the lack of co-ordination against Ogodei.

*Say the army is undersupplied and you want to cornet the market on grain for example.
 
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Hm. The primary way I can see this going wrong is if Shenhua considering everyone at the meeting to be encroaching upon land owned by the Cai, and thus worthy of being punished, which informing the elders would likely lead to whereas in the absence of that Ling Qi alongside CRX would be found wanting.

Honestly I expect if Shenhua is holding court Ling Qi is about to experience what the Dreaming Moon talked about how differences can lead to conflict as Ling Qi would be taking a vastly different approach than tradition dictates. Although success needs no excuse, but the path to it in this instance is like walking a tightrope.

... wait is Ling Qi going to get an opportunity to upgrade War before representatives of the Count Clans via the Duchess asking her to give assessment on the information means as a test? Because that would certainly be an opportunity.. assuming she at least rolls average on it.

Just for reference.
"You performed acceptably, my daughter. I expect you to continue to do so. In the name of the Cai, you will punish any barbarian which encroaches upon our lands," The words were like nails driven into her thoughts, and she could only nod in acceptance.

"It will be my honor to punish them in our name, my honored Mother," Cai Renxiang replied.
 
The best way to avoid getting smacked down is to not suggest anything unless we are specifically asked for our opinion. We should simply give an account of exactly what happened, and if Shenhua believes diplomacy with White Sky is a good idea she'll say so.
 
Well... the whole imperial doctrine is based on isolationism and xenophobia. Does anyone expect Ling Qi to ... suddenly invert that stance?

We know for a fact that they have trade with foreign powers though? I mean, there was a Xuan interlude about it, back in the first thread.
So, they aren't ideologically opposed to the idea of dealing with outsiders, even if they probably look down on them.

The empire and the cloud tribes just have a very long history of bad blood, going both ways.
 
Sect Promotional: Imperial Hammer Sect
Introduction:
The Imperial Hammer Sect is the oldest sect in the empire. Secrets won from the men of the Stone Ape became the techniques which have allowed the Celestial Peaks to remain unassailable, from the days of Sage Emperor Qin to the modern day. In the Empire, only the fortress cities of the Celestial Peaks have never fallen to external foes. No technique may breach their walls. No foe may suborne their defenses. It is only treachery and internal strife which may bring them low.

To join the Imperial Hammer sect is to give oneself over to a legacy of ten thousand years. It is a promise of reliability, integrity, and honor. At the Imperial Hammer Sect, youth are shaped and forged into the tools and weapons which will raise the Empire ever higher. The primary courses of the Imperial Hammer Sect are architecture, Formations Engineering, Siegecraft, and Wartime Logistics. In addition, the Sect offers many other courses on all forms of warfare and construction.

History:
The Imperial Hammer Sect was founded by Qin De, seventh son of Sage Emperor Qin. When the Divine Emperor completed his unification of the Celestial Peaks into one kingdom, he laid to his son the herculean task of maintaining order among the still fractitious tribes. Qin De resolved this task by gathering his disciples and constructing the foundations of what would become the Imperial City. It is upon his design which the sacred geometries of imperial cities are laid.

Upon each inhabited peak did Qin De construct a Throne Palace, a fortress from which the Emperor's Governors could maintain the order of the people. Their geomantic layout granted them the power to strike down rebellion, and a connection to their peers, so that if one struggled, all would know. So pleased was the Sage Emperor with his son's work that he was even allowed to look upon and aid with the construction of the Dragon Throne.

When granted a boon by his father, Qin De, disinterested in the throne, asked only to be allowed dispensation and funds to continue his study of geomancy and architecture. Throughout the remainder of his life, Qin De would continue his work on the imperial palace, until his ascension as the Great Spirit Immaculate Angles Everlasting, cementing his works into the world forevermore.

His disciples would continue on throughout the first dynasty, building upon his foundation and ever strengthening the Empire. Throughout the first dynasty the Imperial Hammer Sect was considered an acceptable place for sons of the Imperial Family not in consideration for the throne.

Until the Usurper rose. Hiding his foul ambitions, the Usurper was admitted to the Sect and there learned the Secret's of the Celestial Peaks defences. His teachers did not survive to regret teaching him thus.

In the wake of the Usurper's war, the Sect was rebuilt under the second dynasty, with far less independence. In those days, the Imperial Hammer Sect was reduced to merely performing maintenance under close watch, and our works stagnated. Much knowledge was lost to the Usurper, and two thirds of the Throne Palaces were damaged beyond repair. Qin De's great work was abandoned, as governors saw to their own expansion and fortifications.

Matters continued in this way until the Cataclysm, when with the aid of locals, the members of the Imperial Hammer Sect were able to cordon off the spreading corruption of the Purifying Sun's death, and prevent further spread. Even here, however, the Sect encountered misfortune. Sects head at the time quit its ranks in the wake of the project to marry into the Han Clan, taking many secrets with him.

It is only under the third dynasty that the Imperial Hammer Sect has recovered its deserved prestige and respect. First the Sima Clan, and then others began to respect and follow the advice of the Sect in their construction and so the Celestial Peaks prosperity grew. This has only accelerated, first under Emperor An, and now under Divine Empress Xiang.

The Imperial Hammer Sect grows more important by the year.

Enrollment:
As per the educational decrees, the Imperial Hammer Sect accepts all applicants. For the first four years of a student's enrollment, they remain in the Outer Sect, under the rigorous instruction of the Sect's experts on all matters of import. Upon completing the four year Outer Sect course, disciples are allowed to choose their desired career course and after testing advance to the Inner Sect. Those who fail testing by marginal degrees may be given opportunities for remedial courses, lasting an additional four years.

In the Inner Sect, Disciples spend the following ten years being instructed and shadowing experts and core disciples. At any point after their tenth year, a disciple may then apply for their mastery exam, but each disciple may only take their exam once. Failures may choose to remain in permanent apprentice positions, or be expelled from the Sect.

Subsidized Enrollment is available for common applicants, paid at the expense of the imperial Seat. Subsidized disciples must, after completing their Outer Sect course, participate in Imperial Infrastructure projects in order to pay their debt to the throne.

Careers:
Imperial Architect:
While other Sects may claim some mastery in this field, and be given some small projects in designing individual buildings, towns and fortresses, it is the Imperial Hammer Sect which is given the task of laying out cities, palaces and road networks. Truly talented disciples may even one day be allowed to do some small work upon the Imperial Palace itself.


Imperial Army officer: While matters of tactics and strategy are important, in truth warfare is a matter of logistics, organization, and industry. None know this better than the Imperial Hammer Sect. A significant percentage of the Imperial Army's support apparatus arises from our ranks and teachings.

Imperial Geomancer: Only the Imperial Hammer Sect holds the full secrets of Qin De and his disciples within our archives. On matters of large scale terrain alteration, climate manipulation and settlement planning, there are none who can match the Sect. A most difficult career path, but offering almost unlimited prestige

Prominent Sect Members:

Sect Master Zuo Shi:
Raised to his position under Emperor Si Sect master Zuo Shi arose from humble beginnings as the son of common scholars in the Imperial Archive, and served as a symbol of the reforms which then Crown Prince An would later pass. Serving diligently throughout Emperor An's reign, Sect Master Zuo now uses his immaculate skills at organization to oversee the Empress Xiang's extensive infrastructure projects, and the restoration of the Throne Palaces.
 
In the Inner Sect, Disciples spend the following ten years being instructed and shadowing experts and core disciples
When Math may be under subjective control of a Great Spirit, you kind of need personal teaching. On the other hand, having bunch of Cyans sitting in a class room would be hilarious.

Also, that Clan explains lot about the Great Clan System. Cultivators with their wacky life span really need them.
 
*head tilt*

Hmmmmmmmmm /doubt

I'm willing to bet they can say this, and it's 'true', but only because foreign enemies never get that far. I mean, the majority of the empires enemies are basically nomadic tribes? The peaks are at the center of the empire. If they even consider the peaks to be an enemy, they have to pass through massive hostile provinces to get to them.


Basically, the Empire has no domestic rivals, so it hasn't ever come under serious threat.
 
Sect Master Zuo now uses his immaculate skills at organization to oversee the Empress Xiang's extensive infrastructure projects, and the restoration of the Throne Palaces.
Hmm, now what do the Throne Palaces do again...

Throne Palace, a fortress from which the Emperor's Governors could maintain the order of the people. Their geomantic layout granted them the power to strike down rebellion, and a connection to their peers, so that if one struggled, all would know.
...Either this is a lie/overstatement, or Sun Shao focused overmuch on armies and not logistics when he concluded Empress Xiang was abandoning the plan to guard against Bai retaliation. Because Throne Palaces + Great Sects looks a lot like Imperial centralization logistics.

(I wonder, with Shenhua's Perfect City domain, if she has learned any secrets about Throne Palaces. And if she's implementing the principles in her reorganization of Xiangmen?)
 
I'm willing to bet they can say this, and it's 'true', but only because foreign enemies never get that far. I mean, the majority of the empires enemies are basically nomadic tribes? The peaks are at the center of the empire. If they even consider the peaks to be an enemy, they have to pass through massive hostile provinces to get to them.


Basically, the Empire has no domestic rivals, so it hasn't ever come under serious threat.
It's more like it's easy to say that whenever their fortress falls it's due to internal strife. If a barbarian horde get there it's clearly because another province didn't do their job right :)
 
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