Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

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So then are there a bunch of Red ducals out there?
Possibly, how talent is inherited hasn't been explained to the thread in detail. But it's suspected that ducals (at least in main branches, and to a lesser extent in side ones) generally have much higher than average talent due to some combination of inheritance, the interference of their great spirit ancestors, occasionally bringing new spirit blood into the lines and the rituals involved in maintaining their characteristic family traits (the Bai's scales and speed, the Zheng's strength, that sort of thing).
 
Moreover, in the scenario you describe, we'd be forced to marry into the Xuan. That... creates all sorts of new problems, including the fact that we'd be no longer Cai's vassal afterwards
I'm not sure why people keep perpetuating this.
Clan Head marriages do not fold the smaller clan into the larger by default. This is desired by neither side:
-The Ducal clan forming a foreign alliance would be impossible as a result.
-The Baronial clan loses their right to claim their own territories.
-The Ducal clan must now pay for the upkeep of an entire new sub-faction, which does not generate any new income, as they lost their right to claim their own territories to pay their own upkeep. The exception is if they were specifically being recruiting a clan of one. Then they just need to worry about envy

Rule of Thumb for feudal marriages:
-Clan Head marrying regular member of another clan. Customarily the Clan Head retains their title and status, while their spouse forsakes theirs. This is regardless of clan status.

-Clan Head marrying Clan Head. This can be a union of the clans, but more commonly they have an established contract about which of their children can inherit which titles and in which priority. Its really unusual anyways, the only example I could think of in setting is the Sage Emperor.

-Regular member marrying another regular member of another clan. Depends on the specific contract, as neither of them own any land or title, their transfer between the clans is considered a point of negotiation. If theres an excess of land and resources they may be spun off into a branch clan.

I wonder how Xuan Wu territoriality works, whether it is it based on who they are raised with or if it is an instinctive response to different subspecies. If Ling Qi had spirit blooded children with Xuan Shi would Zhengui have an instinctive dislike towards them he had to suppress, or would he just consider them part of his shoal without any issues?
Based on Xuan Shi's handling of the matter its likely to be something the Xuan have had to deal with fairly often. I'd guess it happens whenever the young Xuanwu meet their peers for the first time
Ducal families are huge. There are plenty of low talent members of branch families, yes. There are also low talent scions who are bankrolled to green, the last achievable stage with money, and stay there.

Ducal families also have modifications to their bloodlines which give them higher talents on average.
Word of Yrs was that while you cannot ensure higher talent you can ensure nobody has low talent. Think of it as rerolling Talent 1-3s
So a ducal family would be carried on a large body of Greens with minimum talent of 4-5, who could be sponsored into Green and then left there.

Really, with a Ducal clan's resources, if you have Talent 5 and a good work ethic you don't really mind not having Talent 6+
 
Furthermore, the Cyan breakthrough is not a resource or talent gated barrier. She can just get stuck at Green completion or settle in mid-green like Xiulan's sisters have. It's likely, even.
In order to get though green you need insights which just can't be done on command not matter the talent or resources.

Although I am now imagining someone who has been stuck in green not for lack of talent or resources, but lack of insights. They would likely have a very well optimized suite of arts. Fitting well together and all using the least possible number of Meridians. Also many high level skills.

Edit:If we never got another insight for the next few years how many Meridians could be open well still stuck?
 
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Ducal families are huge. There are plenty of low talent members of branch families, yes. There are also low talent scions who are bankrolled to green, the last achievable stage with money, and stay there.

Ducal families also have modifications to their bloodlines which give them higher talents on average.
And a further detail on top of this which got brought up in the previous thread I think is that for some of the older and larger Ducal clans, they're like an ethnicity onto themselves. The Bai are a good example, as are the Zheng more then likely given their ways though I don't recall if Yrs specified them when discussing this particular topic.
 
I'm not sure why people keep perpetuating this.
Clan Head marriages do not fold the smaller clan into the larger by default. This is desired by neither side:
-The Ducal clan forming a foreign alliance would be impossible as a result.
-The Baronial clan loses their right to claim their own territories.
-The Ducal clan must now pay for the upkeep of an entire new sub-faction, which does not generate any new income, as they lost their right to claim their own territories to pay their own upkeep. The exception is if they were specifically being recruiting a clan of one. Then they just need to worry about envy

Rule of Thumb for feudal marriages:
-Clan Head marrying regular member of another clan. Customarily the Clan Head retains their title and status, while their spouse forsakes theirs. This is regardless of clan status.

-Clan Head marrying Clan Head. This can be a union of the clans, but more commonly they have an established contract about which of their children can inherit which titles and in which priority. Its really unusual anyways, the only example I could think of in setting is the Sage Emperor.

-Regular member marrying another regular member of another clan. Depends on the specific contract, as neither of them own any land or title, their transfer between the clans is considered a point of negotiation. If theres an excess of land and resources they may be spun off into a branch clan.

Dude, I know, I am advocating marriage to Xuan Shi, I know this and how to defend it.

I was replying to a specific assertion that the Cai would find it proffitable to marry us to the Xuan if the Xuan really wanted Zhengui. What I assumed to be obvious was that, in order for the Xuan to get Zhengui, we'd have to marry into them rather than the oppossite, because Zhengui is our bonded spirit. I was not claiming that anyone was always folded, I was claiming that in that specific scenario we'd have to be folded for the example to work. I am sorry if I was unclear.
 
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Speaking of Xuan Shi, I think I might understand why he's taken by Ling Qi.

She came to the sect with nothing, knowing nothing, and nobody having her back, but she's advanced rapidly despite all that. Yes, in terms of cultivation, but from his perspective the more impressive thing is probably how she's advanced with people. Ling Qi has made connections, dear friends, found family, and even managed to reconnect with family she had lost. She went from a lone urchin conscript to someone with some real connections and bonds who is valued by other people. Maybe more than anything else, that's the miracle in his eyes; she transformed from the lowest dregs of society to someone people actually respect and care about, care for.

Xuan Shi isn't sociable. But he is observant. I think he's picked up on how events have unfolded with Ling Qi being a pivot in her own right, the way her friendships with Gu Xiulan and Bai Meizhen changed the course of the Outer Sect's conflicts, but also how genuine those connections were and are.

In all likelihood, he admires Ling Qi for her enviable success with other people. Maybe even success he doesn't envy, because he simply can't see it as a possibility that could ever apply to himself.
 
Speaking of Xuan Shi, I think I might understand why he's taken by Ling Qi.

She came to the sect with nothing, knowing nothing, and nobody having her back, but she's advanced rapidly despite all that. Yes, in terms of cultivation, but from his perspective the more impressive thing is probably how she's advanced with people. Ling Qi has made connections, dear friends, found family, and even managed to reconnect with family she had lost. She went from a lone urchin conscript to someone with some real connections and bonds who is valued by other people. Maybe more than anything else, that's the miracle in his eyes; she transformed from the lowest dregs of society to someone people actually respect and care about, care for.

Xuan Shi isn't sociable. But he is observant. I think he's picked up on how events have unfolded with Ling Qi being a pivot in her own right, the way her friendships with Gu Xiulan and Bai Meizhen changed the course of the Outer Sect's conflicts, but also how genuine those connections were and are.

In all likelihood, he admires Ling Qi for her enviable success with other people. Maybe even success he doesn't envy, because he simply can't see it as a possibility that could ever apply to himself.

I have a different read. Xuan Shi seems like a shy guy or at least somewhat introverted. Ling Qi being both female and having had pleasant interactions with him is enough for a crush to develop in those cases.

People want to fall in love an be happy. Sometimes, you just have to hint at it for it to happen and the less you think it might happen to you the more likely it is. You don't need a big reason to develop a crush if you are lonely.
 
Are we actually even a Cai vassal? Has that word been used to describe us in the story? As a cultivator of the Emerald Sea, we are obviously a subject of the local ducal house and we have agreed to be CRX's retainer, but to be a vassal, shouldn't we first be granted some territory to govern in their name? Or is land not a requirement and we became a vassal the moment we accepted the noble title? What does "vassal" mean in the context of the Celestial Empire?
 
I have a different read. Xuan Shi seems like a shy guy or at least somewhat introverted. Ling Qi being both female and having had pleasant interactions with him is enough for a crush to develop in those cases.

People want to fall in love an be happy. Sometimes, you just have to hint at it for it to happen and the less you think it might happen to you the more likely it is. You don't need a big reason to develop a crush if you are lonely.
Maybe, but we weren't his first crush at the sect.
 
Are we actually even a Cai vassal? Has that word been used to describe us in the story? As a cultivator of the Emerald Sea, we are obviously a subject of the local ducal house and we have agreed to be CRX's retainer, but to be a vassal, shouldn't we first be granted some territory to govern in their name? Or is land not a requirement and we became a vassal the moment we accepted the noble title? What does "vassal" mean in the context of the Celestial Empire?
The Cai house has bought out our debt to the sect. Land comes with the title (which comes from cultivation) Cai having bought out our debt also gives them the jurisdiction to assign where our land will be.
 
The Cai house has bought out our debt to the sect. Land comes with the title (which comes from cultivation) Cai having bought out our debt also gives them the jurisdiction to assign where our land will be.
The Cai bought our contract, but just makes us an indentured servant (for eight years), not a vassal. We are currently landless baroness and while CRX said she was going to give us land that has not yet happened.
 
The Cai bought our contract, but just makes us an indentured servant (for eight years), not a vassal. We are currently landless baroness and while CRX said she was going to give us land that has not yet happened.
We pledged to be a vassal before they took over our debt. The land assignment comes after we finish at the sect. We did 1 year in the outer sect, and are scheduled to do 2 years in the inner sect - as per Cai Shenhua's decision.

Edit: we're in the inner sect for 2 years.
 
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So, a little after the Tournament? I'm doing the math in my head so it can be wrong.
 
Are we actually even a Cai vassal? Has that word been used to describe us in the story? As a cultivator of the Emerald Sea, we are obviously a subject of the local ducal house and we have agreed to be CRX's retainer, but to be a vassal, shouldn't we first be granted some territory to govern in their name? Or is land not a requirement and we became a vassal the moment we accepted the noble title? What does "vassal" mean in the context of the Celestial Empire?
We pledged ourself to the Cai just before CRX gave a thread of Liming to our dress. CRX had permission from Shenhua to take a couple of vassals to the clan.
 
We pledged to be a vassal before they took over our debt. The land assignment comes after we finish at the sect. We did 1 year in the outer sect, and are scheduled to do 1.5 years in the inner sect - as per Cai Shenhua's decision.
I don't quite remember the exact wording, but I don't think CRX promised to give us land immediately after the sect. She said we are going to do our eight years of servitude in her fief, which could mean we get our own piece of clay only after that.

In any case, this has very little to do with my original question, which was about what defines "vassal" in the context of this story. In other words, are we a vassal before we get landed? Or does being held in retainer make as one?
 
I think we became a Vassal when we swore loyalty.
We just happen to be a vassal that owes a lot of money to their liege, and whose liege owes them some land.
 
Regarding inheriting talent, I know qingge family disowned Mom but with they try entice/kidnap their distant tremendously successful great Granddaughter from a servant beach?
 
Will we really try recruiting the Ma sisters , li suylin , su ling and others or is Just a dream ?
Li Suyin and Su Ling are both fellow baronesses and the Sect is going to be very interested in keeping them. The Ma sisters are a more realistic target, but the new interlude suggested they've got a good chance of reaching Green and getting their own titles before they hit 17. So it's probably just a dream, unless I misunderstood and you were talking about recruiting for our team in the inter-sect tournament rather than for our fief.
 
I don't quite remember the exact wording, but I don't think CRX promised to give us land immediately after the sect. She said we are going to do our eight years of servitude in her fief, which could mean we get our own piece of clay only after that.

In any case, this has very little to do with my original question, which was about what defines "vassal" in the context of this story. In other words, are we a vassal before we get landed? Or does being held in retainer make as one?

A vassal is presumably a noble/cultivator that owes fealty to a particular liege. I would be hard pressed to come up with a situation where a noble would be a retainer but not a vassal. However mortal servants would also be retainers.

We actually have a fair number of retainers because of Qingge's efforts, though we barely know any of them. We do not yet have any vassals and probably won't unless we reach Viscount. I don't know if us getting the fealty of Reds or Yellows would make them vassals or not and there's probably some grey area due to everyone's youth.

Regarding inheriting talent, I know qingge family disowned Mom but with they try entice/kidnap their distant tremendously successful great Granddaughter from a servant beach?

Do you mean trying to kidnap Ling Qi? That seems like a poor life decision. "Yes, let's aggravate three Ducal scions, one of whom is the heir of the Cai and another who is one of the famously merciful Bai. Oh, and our target is a stealth/escape specialist".

Speaking of noble allies, what is Xiulan's rank within the Gu?
 
Speaking of noble allies, what is Xiulan's rank within the Gu?
Youngest daughter of the current head of the clan. Lanlan is really too young and low in cultivation to have any real rank beside that.

We only really hear about the patriarch/matriarch (usually older and high in cultivation), the head (running the clan) and the heir when it comes to offical ranks. Clans probably have their own systems, but we have not really heard anything beside Lanlan claiming that she is "She was second only to her sister among her whole generation."
 
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Regarding inheriting talent, I know qingge family disowned Mom but with they try entice/kidnap their distant tremendously successful great Granddaughter from a servant beach?
Don't forget that Qingge's family isn't a noble clan, they're a lesser cultivator clan that serves the Viscount clan that rules Tongu. Our mom was under the impression that we're already stronger than she remembers her clan patriarch being. This is only slightly more likely than any enemies we made as a street rat actually being a threat to us.

Edit: Also what's 'servant beach' supposed to be? My best guess is servant branch, but that's not us that's them.
 
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