Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

Asael · May 28, 2020

storryeater said:
Ji Rong is a very shonen idiot, what are you talking about?

Its not about the factions being oppossing, it is about politics. Cai wants as many political hooks as possible. Sun will use any hooks she'll get, evntually.

Fights between children aren't going to seriously effect politics. Didn't that get spelled out in the first thread?

storryeater · May 28, 2020

Asael said:
Fights between children aren't going to seriously effect politics. Didn't the get spelled out in the first thread?

We aren't children anymore, we are in the inner sect.

MAJOR EDIT: Also, it may matter A LOT for the tourney.

He glanced away grumbling. "...She's gonna kick my ass for this," he huffed. "End of next month, Sun Liling and me are leaving. She's got family business back home, and I gotta do some formal crap myself. We'll be back for the New Year Tourney, but I wanna do this before that."

Vanguard_D · May 28, 2020

Varder said:
Well, people will know that they are dueling. So what? They won't see it, they won't know how serious and close the fighting was, they won't know who the winner was. They will only be able to speculate and they will speculate regardless, even if Ling Qi refuses a re-match. Actually, don't you think that Ling Qi (and CRX) would loose more face if she refuses to fight him?

The bolded part makes little sence to me. When I spoke about him being truthfull I didn't mean that he wouldn't want to lie to us, the question is, could he?

Ling Qi has raw Empathy skill rating of "C" which is firmly average, but there are probably some techs and arts she uses to help with finding lies, and social cues (@Black Noise help me out here please? Front page is scary)? She constantly notices things CRX would very much prefer stayed hidden and CRX has much better poker face than Ji Rong.

Basically, I belive Ling Qi is a better face reader than Ji Rong is a liar and Sixiang is better than her still and they didn't find anything suspicious afaik either. Your concerns that this is some kind of standart young master (TM) vengeance set-up on Ji Rong's part are unfounded.

So we should swear JR, Sun, the Elder and any other witness to secrecy? Why would they accept that? Even if we fight in a private dueling ground the results will get out.

Like I pointed out before here in the thread, there is a war going on and the Cai got their ducal seat in part due to how the Hui handled the Ogodei invasion. Cai Shenhua has pretty much order everyone to go into this war due to how that mess was handled. The Cai retainer concentrating on the war effort should be the expected course of action here as the duel is about pride and prestige. Duels is not something that people are supposed to indulge in right now, the sect forbade infighting even in the outer sect remember?

LQ can narratively only read CRX due to being around her alot. Like how she could notice that CRX was upset in FoD and no one else could. We have not been around JR enough to read his tells.

storryeater said:
Problem is, we are actually losing from refusing him. Do not forget that he is part of the Liling faction, us refusing to fight can be seen as a weakness of our castle if he tells it to his boss (and he is especially likely to do so if he is indignant). If we insist on keeping the duel private, however, he may not reveal our weakness to his boss even if he wins. On the other hand, if one does not care about Ji Rong social (which can end up surprisingly useful, seeing as he is the one non ducal that has the skill to not fall behind us, making him always relevant), it offers us a diplomatic backdoor to Liling's faction. Which is very useful to the Cai faction.

Way less then you would think actually, remember that the Sun faction is leaving soon. Sun is not one to throw stone in glass houses, going out and claiming that LQ is weak due to not accepting a pride duel that someone else wants. The duel utlimatly goes against both the sects wishes at this point (duels is cancelled, concentrat on war) and the Cai (War first due to how they built their political platform). I am sure some none ES nobles will look down the nose at that, but guess what many of them ran away.

People still remembers Ogodei, any ES noble trying to claim LQ is weak for not accepting someones ego stroking duel is going to get shot down hard.

TimEd · May 28, 2020

Vanguard_D said:
This is wrong tho, the reason for this duel is JR going "ducals are to strong, you are closest so I want to test my strength."

Diplomacy is all about cultivating relationships. It doesnt matter what Ji Rong said the reason for this duel is.

In the RRL version, Meizhen and Ling Qi also sparred while discussing some pretty heavy stuff. Now granted I doubt Ji Rong will be all that conversant in the duel, but if we dont do anything to antagonize him, a chat afterwards will be a perfectly natural thing to do.

Even Relationship 0 with Ji Rong is an improvement, since we're currently at -1.

storryeater · May 28, 2020

Vanguard_D said:
So we should swear JR, Sun, the Elder and any other witness to secrecy? Why would they accept that? Even if we fight in a private dueling ground the results will get out.

Like I pointed out before here in the thread, there is a war going on and the Cai got their ducal seat in part due to how the Hui handled the Ogodei invasion. Cai Shenhua has pretty much order everyone to go into this war due to how that mess was handled. The Cai retainer concentrating on the war effort should be the expected course of action here as the duel is about pride and prestige. Duels is not something that people are supposed to indulge in right now, the sect forbade infighting even in the outer sect remember?

LQ can narritivly only read CRX due to being around her alot. Like how she could notice that CRX was upset in FoD and no one else could. We have not been around JR enough to read his tells.

Way less then you would think actually, remember that the Sun faction is leaving soon. Sun is not one to throw stone in glass houses, going out and claiming that LQ is weak due to not accepting a pride duel that someone else wants. The duel utlimatly goes against both the sects wishes at this point (duels is cancelled, concentrat on war) and the Cai (War first due to how they built their political platform). I am sure some none ES nobles will look down the nose at that, but guess what many of them ran away.

People still remembers Ogodei, any ES noble trying to claim LQ is weak for not accepting someones ego stroking duel is going to get shot down hard.

As I said before, Liling will be back for the tourney. It will be very helpful to our team to have Ji Rong in good graces, and Liling in no position to assume leadership by smelling weakness.

Asael · May 28, 2020

storryeater said:
We aren't children anymore, we are in the inner sect.

Fourteen or fifteen, without an actual fief or any major accomplishments.
In a society were people live for centuries.

LQ is definitely still a kid to the perspective of anyone that matter. Frankly, even by face culture, we wouldn't be required to accept.

And in a cultivator society, where battles can actually result in long term fallout (as seen by the leftover supercell from the sect heads battle from ages ago) it doesn't actually make any sense to compel people to accept every challenge.

storryeater · May 28, 2020

Asael said:
Fourteen or fifteen, without an actual fief or any major accomplishments.
In a society were people live for centuries.

LQ is definitely still a kid to the perspective of anyone that matter. Frankly, even by face culture, we wouldn't be required to accept.

And in a cultivator society, where battles can actually result in long term fallout (as seen by the leftover supercell from the sect heads battle from ages ago) it doesn't actually make any sense to compel people to accept every challenge.

Yeah, that is fair enough. If I didn't happen to realise they'll be back by the tourney while quote searching, I'd actually be conceding that a duel is not necessarily a good idea by now. However, for the tournament we do not need only to be strong, we also need a good team, and Ji Rong is one of the best newcomers, while Liling is one of the people most likely to make trouble for Cai come tournament time.

Vanguard_D · May 28, 2020

TimEd said:
Diplomacy is all about cultivating relationships. It doesnt matter what Ji Rong said the reason for this duel is.

In the RRL version, Meizhen and Ling Qi also sparred while discussing some pretty heavy stuff. Now granted I doubt Ji Rong will be all that conversant in the duel, but if we dont do anything to antagonize him, a chat afterwards will be a perfectly natural thing to do.

Even Relationship 0 with Ji Rong is an improvement, since we're currently at -1.

So the reason someone does something does not matter? ... ok.

A spar that from the start was meant to be about talking shit out like with Meizhen and LQ is way, way different then a fight with the stated purpose to show strength and gain pride and prestige. A duel is about beating the shit out of each other. I doubt JR will have time to speak after eating a CtE or LQ eating a lightning strike to the nose. Considering that he is leaving right afterwards.

I guess a mild dislike to not caring is an improvement. But why would it? And no neither JR or LQ is Nanoha.

storryeater said:
As I said before, Liling will be back for the tourney. It will be very helpful to our team to have Ji Rong in good graces, and Liling in no position to assume leadership by smelling weakness.

I do not see it. The JR and Sun on our team is another one of the mindghosts thats been popping around for... reasons I guess. Unless the sect got only got one team per sect in the junior division it is more likely that Sun will be in a second team for the competition rather the joining with the Cai and Bai.

I find it it the same ballpark as the vote right at the start of FoD when people wanted Sun and Meizhen in the same house because it would be cool.

Asael · May 28, 2020

IDC about the duel itself, tbh. Just this idea that we, for some reason, absolutely have to go through with it.

We don't. It's optional.
And as long as it doesn't chip AP out of darkness month, I don't really have any objections.

As for the tournament. It's an intersect tournament. Pretty sure sabotaging your sect siblings is a good way to piss off the elders.

storryeater · May 28, 2020

Vanguard_D said:
I do not see it. The JR and Sun on our team is another one of the mindghosts thats been popping around for... reasons I guess. Unless the sect got only got one team per sect in the junior division it is more likely that Sun will be in a second team for the competition rather the joining with the Cai and Bai.

It may very well be one sect one team, why wouldn't it be? It is the most likely and natural way for it to be, one team per sect per division.

Asael said:
IDC about the duel itself, tbh. Just this idea that we, for some reason, absolutely have to go through with it.

We don't. It's optional.
And as long as it doesn't chip AP out of darkness month, I don't really have any objections.

As for the tournament. It's an intersect tournament. Pretty sure sabotaging your sect siblings is a good way to piss of the elders.

I know it is optional, but I both want and think its wise to go through with it. It is why I am arguing for it.

As for "sabotaging" it won't be actual sabotage, it will be a bid for leadership that will be much harder to clean up than fighting the duel now.Even if we do win, if the sect makes the teams out of its strongest rather than letting the leader pick their members, we will face teamwork problems.

Varder · May 28, 2020

Vanguard_D said:
So we should swear JR, Sun, the Elder and any other witness to secrecy? Why would they accept that? Even if we fight in a private dueling ground the results will get out.
...
...
...
Duels is not something that people are supposed to indulge in right now, the sect forbade infighting even in the outer sect remember?

JR and Sun leave immediately afterwards, witnesses won't be there because breaking into a private area with an elder is not something to do for a gossip piece and elder is not someone who will go and spread gossip about us.

They forbade challenges for a rank, nothing else was stopped afaik.

Your idea about spinning previous rulers' failure as a reason to avoid fighting now applies only by technicality: Ji Rong's and Sun's leaving the sect immediately aftwerwards prevents this "infighting" from escalating from a single duel to harmfull and bitter infighting. This would be a great public reason to explain why we chicken out, but everyone will understand the true motives of insecurity.

Vanguard_D · May 28, 2020

storryeater said:
It may very well be one sect one team, why wouldn't it be? It is the most likely and natural way for it to be, one team per sect per division.

Because within the 2 year period that falls into the junior division there are atleast 32 people between two rounds of combat and production disciples (duno how people that does not come through the tournament counts here tbh). Iirc a team is way less then that.

The sects want to show of, just having one team per sect does not make any sense if they can make several good teams.

Asael · May 28, 2020

storryeater said:
As for "sabotaging" it won't be actual sabotage, it will be a bid for leadership that will be much harder to clean up than fighting the duel now.Even if we do win, if the sect makes the teams out of its strongest rather than letting the leader pick their members, we will face teamwork problems.

That particular competition will be between Cai and Sun, not Qi and Ji, and will probably happen regardless. Meizhen might be required to throw her hat in too, if her family wants it.
Sun doesn't strike me as the type to yield authority without proving strength.

In my mind, this duel is more about setting up an actual rivalry. Right now, Ji Rong is more of a Rival Meme than an actual rival. He's got the right background, talent, and attitude, but Ling Qi doesn't really have an in character reason to go "I want to beat that guy".

Actually, she has very little reason to even remember him, when she's forgotten about so many others.

Vanguard_D · May 28, 2020

Varder said:
JR and Sun leave immediately afterwards, witnesses won't be there because breaking into a private area with an elder is not something to do for a gossip piece and elder is not someone who will go and spread gossip about us.

They forbade challenges for a rank, nothing else was stopped afaik.

Your idea about spinning previous rulers' failure as a reason to avoid fighting now applies only by technicality: Ji Rong's and Sun's leaving the sect immediately aftwerwards prevents this "infighting" from escalating from a single duel to harmfull and bitter infighting. This would be a great public reason to explain why we chicken out, but everyone will understand the true motives of insecurity.

Like I said, you are underestimating people. Beside the medical area will also know depending on who is banged up the most after this. It will get out no matter what. Can be from Sun, can be from the medical, can be from anyone really. A duel between retainers of ducal houses is that big a deal in the inner sect,

Duels for rank is usually the only duels allowed in the inner sect. They went and forbade those ontop of the usual rules so they are taking things seriously.

Insecurity falls flat in the face of the fact that LQ won the previous fight. It is JR that has to go to her for this, her refusing to indulge a lesser ranked persons pride is not a show of insecurity. As she has already proven herself against them.

storryeater · May 28, 2020

Vanguard_D said:
Because within the 2 year period that falls into the junior division there are atleast 32 people between two rounds of combat and production disciples (duno how people that does not come through the tournament counts here tbh). Iirc a team is way less then that.

The sects want to show of, just having one team per sect does not make any sense if they can make several good teams.

1) The sect wants to show off its best, its of its interest to enter its best, not to enter everyone.
2) If the sect can enter multiple teams, so can other sects. As I doubt solely the great sects will take part on this, that will lead to a very bloated tournament.
3) it may well be that there is a junior division fighting team and a junior division production team tournament.
4) I have never seen a tournament where a faction can enter multiple teams in all of fiction nor reality. Closest approximation is a faction controlling multiple other factions that enter the tournament.

Asael said:
That particular competition will be between Cai and Sun, not Qi and Ji, and will probably happen regardless. Meizhen might be required to throw her hat in too, if her family wants it.
Sun doesn't strike me as the type to yield authority without proving strength.

In my mind, this duel is more about setting up an actual rivalry. Right now, Ji Rong is more a Rival Meme than an actual rival. He's got the right background, talent, and attitude, but Ling Qi doesn't really have an in character reason to go "I want to beat that guy".

Actually, she has very little reason to even remember him, when she's forgotten about so many others.

No, it will be between the Cai faction and the Sun faction. We are part of the Cai faction. Thus it is our businness be logic both in universe and pragmatic.

Also, it may well be that Sun having no weakness to justify her oppossition will give her less support, which may come in handy.

We have been told to be political by Cai. We should be.

Asael · May 28, 2020

storryeater said:
No, it will be between the Cai faction and the Sun faction. We are part of the Cai faction. Thus it is our businness be logic both in universe and pragmatic.

Also, it may well be that Sun having no weakness to justify her oppossition will give her less support, which may come in handy.

We have been told to be political by Cai. We should be.

Since it's the sects face on the line, I'm pretty sure they'll be the ones with the final say about who stay and who goes.
And I doubt this single duel is going to factor heavily. Supremely skeptical in fact.

Varder · May 28, 2020

Vanguard_D said:
Insecurity falls flat in the face of the fact that LQ won the previous fight. It is JR that has to go to her for this, her refusing to indulge a lesser ranked persons pride is not a show of insecurity. As she has already proven herself against them.

No, not really. Everyone will understand that this is not a dismissal of a lesser challenger because her time is better spent elsewhere. The difference between them is not that great. People will realise it's personal.

I don't see how you can say this is not an insecurity thing given your reasoning. Even regardless of that, insecurity is always a prerogative of the challenged, not the challenger.

Vanguard_D · May 28, 2020

storryeater said:
1) The sect wants to show off its best, its of its interest to enter its best, not to enter everyone.
2) If the sect can enter multiple teams, so can other sects. As I doubt solely the great sects will take part on this, that will lead to a very bloated tournament.
3) it may well be that there is a junior division fighting team and a junior division production team tournament.
4) I have never seen a tournament where a faction can enter multiple teams in all of fiction nor reality. Closest approximation is a faction controlling multiple other factions that enter the tournament.

1. Those 32 are their best of those two years.
2. we have so far only heard that the 3 great sects in the ES are taking part. Anything beyond that is speculation.
3. The tournament name is only a shorthand. There is more to it then fighting and production. So dividing them like that makes no sense.
4. ever hear of the olympics? There are several sports like skiing and swimming and other smaller team sports that can have multiple teams competing for the same prize.

Asael · May 28, 2020

Honestly, I kind of suspect that there will be a competition to decides who goes and who doesn't. It's not likely to be something arbitrary. If they let the student pick their own teams, it only makes sense to test them, since the teams won't necassarily be composed of the top scorers in the sect ladder, but teamwork can make up for personal weaknesses.

Vanguard_D · May 28, 2020

Varder said:
No, not really. Everyone will understand that this is not a dismissal of a lesser challenger because her time is better spent elsewhere. The difference between them is not that great. People will realise it's personal.

I don't see how you can say this is not an insecurity thing given your reasoning. Even regardless of that, insecurity is always a prerogative of the challenged, not the challenger.

False, in this case it is a lesser coming to LQ asking for a duel for pride and prestige he could gain from it. If the person above actually got a reason to dismiss it for more important matters like say that war going on, then there will be no face loss for LQ. Because ultimately she got no reason to indulge JR in this matter. It is a personal matter to him, that LQ can dismiss because it got nothing to do with her. If she accepts tho it becomes more then that as she would stake her own and Cai´s prestige on the outcome.

In a usual situation it might be spun as insecurity. Even then it gets iffy when it is just one part one sidedly coming over asking for a offical duel during war time for no reason beside their own ego.

This is not a usual situation as there are greater matters that should be taking up the parties focus.

storryeater · May 28, 2020

Asael said:
Since it's the sects face on the line, I'm pretty sure they'll be the ones with the final say about who stay and who goes.
And I doubt this single duel is going to factor heavily. Supremely skeptical in fact.

Honestly, I can see possibilities where that is true, and possibilities where that isn't. And even in the best case scenario when Liling can do nothing, I still want a friendly and cooperative Ji Rong in our team, which we won't even have a chance to get without this fight.

Vanguard_D said:
1. Those 32 are their best of those two years.
2. we have so far only heard that the 3 great sects in the ES are taking part. Anything beyond that is speculation.
3. The tournament name is only a shorthand. There is more to it then fighting and production. So dividing them like that makes no sense.
4. ever hear of the olympics? There are several sports like skiing and swimming and other smaller team sports that can have multiple teams competing for the same prize.

1) We know for a fact there are multiple divisions. Having each division have multiple teams per sect is a good way to get things bloated.
2) Yeah, true, but a tournament with only 3 Sects taking place sounds kind of... like it should be more of a competition than a tournament. Also, of the 2 of us, the one who is speculating the most is the person affirming, with no proof, that each sect will definitely send more teams. Even if that is a possibility, its not really worth gambling on.
3) I am just saying it makes no sense for there to be multiple fighting teams, but there may be more divisions on things other than fighting.
4) never heard of any country sending multiple athletes/teams to the same sport, no, but it may be my lack of knowledge.

Varder · May 28, 2020

Vanguard_D said:
False, in this case it is a lesser coming to LQ asking for a duel for pride and prestige he could gain from it. If the person above actually got a reason to dismiss it for more important matters like say that war going on, then there will be no face loss for LQ. Because ultimately she got no reason to indulge JR in this matter. It is a personal matter to him, that LQ can dismiss because it got nothing to do with her. If she accepts tho it becomes more then that as she would stake her own and Cai´s prestige on the outcome.

In a usual situation it might be spun as insecurity. Even then it gets iffy when it is just one part one sidedly coming over asking for a offical duel during war time for no reason beside their own ego.

This is not a usual situation as there are greater matters that should be taking up the parties focus.

Well, then it seems we'll have to disagree and let the matter rest. Because I think there's no way a couple of days it will take to get the duel over and heal the wounded will matter for the war effort; basically this would be a technically valid reason Ling Qi would give to the nobles that has nothing to do with actual reason.

Now, what I don't argue with is that Ling Qi has nothing to do with Ji Rong's insecurities, so agreeing to it will definitely be a favor to him. But that's not bad, I think.

Vanguard_D · May 28, 2020

storryeater said:
1) We know for a fact there are multiple divisions. Having each division have multiple teams per sect is a good way to get things bloated.
2) Yeah, true, but a tournament with only 3 Sects taking place sounds kind of... like it should be more of a competition than a tournament. Also, of the 2 of us, the one who is speculating the most is the person affirming, with no proof, that each sect will definitely send more teams. Even if that is a possibility, its not really worth gambling on.
3) I am just saying it makes no sense for there to be multiple fighting teams, but there may be more divisions on things other than fighting.
4) never heard of any country sending multiple athletes/teams to the same sport, no, but it may be my lack of knowledge.

1, We will only be following our own division tho. Even with two teams per sect it wont be that bloated.
2, Say the person claiming that more then the GS will take part. The two team thing is speculation going by the number of potenial best of two years compared to the standard team size (HJ back in FoD mentioned that 5 where the sect standard for a team)
3, depends.
4, pretty usual in some sports. Skiing in and swimming is big here for example and in the team portions of those there a usually multiple teams competing.

Asael · May 28, 2020

Varder said:
Well, then it seems we'll have to disagree and let the matter rest. Because I think there's no way a couple of days it will take to get the duel over and heal the wounded will matter for the war effort; basically this would be a technically valid reason Ling Qi would give to the nobles that has nothing to do with actual reason.

I can't agree with this actually. The sect halted all duels officially. They clearly believe the war takes precedence.
There isn't a reason for the general populace to disagree. After all, it's a war. Someone of your specialty might be needed at any moment.

angelofwhim · May 28, 2020

Will we see kongyou again, must flute her face in

Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

Meteor maker

Tired Cultist

Tired Cultist

Tired Cultist