Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
On an slightly different matter, considering how cultivation is a big equalizer between sexes, do you think there are male whores ?
Male prostitutes were quite common in history, starting from the get go in Uruk. Equalization doesn't have much to do with it because in a lot of ancient cultures because they approached sex and gender differently.

That said, I do think I need to more strongly differentiate techs which key off mental and techs which key off social. in that certain techs need to always use one or the other. Frankly I'm a little tempted to merge mental/social and discard the divide as an old system artifact, but I'm not sure that works great, it reduces character resolution for minor gains in efficiency
I can understand the temptation to merge them. White Wolf did something a little daft with splitting them in the Storyteller system, which I know FoD and to a degree ToD is based off of. It's worked out since we started but I can definitely understand where the idea comes from.
 
everyone is complaining, so i guess it is my turn to join the chorus:

@yrsillar


@yrsillar i am a bit confused about the amount of money we currently have:

we had following costs: 4 YSS (stones) + 425 RSS (pills, (17 * 25 RSS assuming jobs and archive dont count) + 20 YSS (sponsored GSS) + 2 YSS (mother) = 68 YSS 5 RSS

and our income was 1 GSS(cai) + 40 YSS (sect) + 1 GSS (sponsored GSS) = 2 GSS and 40 YSS

this results in a net income of 2 GSS 40 YSS - 68 YSS 5 RSS = 1 GSS 21 YSS 5 RSS

the current balance displayed is: 2 GSS 36 YSS 103 RSS

so does that mean we started the quest at 1 GSS 15 YSS and 98 RSS ?

Just building on this, what I think has happened is we framed things awkwardly in our plan.

yrs started things at 103 RS, 43 YS, and 1 GS (income already added).

We said "wipes out income + -5 YS" and "buy cheap GS"

Yrs appears to have just applied the -5 YS (and then -2 for our mother), but not wiped out our +40YS income or applied the cost of the GSS (-20YSS).

yeah,if we assume that the total balance we had on the first page was before the income then we should have a balance of 2 GSS 64 YSS 108 RSS
(1 GSS 43 YSS 103 RSS + 1 GSS 21 YSS 5 RSS)

but if the total balance displayed was after the income then we should have 1 GSS 25 YSS 98 RSS
(1 GSS 43 YSS 103 RSS + 1 GSS - 20 YSS - 4 YSS - 2YSS -425 RSS)

TLDR: we either have too much or too little money in the inventory, probably too much
 
the main problem with the idea is that it makes a lot of characters much more samey in their stat spreads. Same thing with discarding attributes entirely, but that gets into the issue of having to rework the whole system again
 
the main problem with the idea is that it makes a lot of characters much more samey in their stat spreads. Same thing with discarding attributes entirely, but that gets into the issue of having to rework the whole system again

*Insert Mandatory cookie-cutter comment about how I liked the original system fine and don't know why it was changed*

I mean, I did like the dot system for attributes and stats, makes it easy to grasp from the outside and to build comparisons for.
 
I have a really good argument why we shouldn't eliminate attributes!

I... just can't remember what it is. At all. But I know I had concrete examples of ways it would cause unwanted distortions. Ya gotta believe me.
 
*Insert Mandatory cookie-cutter comment about how I liked the original system fine and don't know why it was changed*

I mean, I did like the dot system for attributes and stats, makes it easy to grasp from the outside and to build comparisons for.
Well that was because it was basically taken from Storyteller and when it used dice, the main thing that got ripped out in the system change, it ended up using too many. Storyteller descendants like the old system are not meant for characters to use 55+ dice on a thing, it just breaks because it is butts to keep track of.
 
Should have followed my advice and just have 3 stats Body, Mind and Social. Then have them split and specialize as needed.

Or even just 2 stats physical and spiritual.
 
Well that was because it was basically taken from Storyteller and when it used dice, the main thing that got ripped out in the system change, it ended up using too many. Storyteller descendants like the old system are not meant for characters to use 55+ dice on a thing, it just breaks because it is butts to keep track of.

I mean, I get that with Cultivation scaling a lot of tests get massive boosts.

But there's also a bunch of stuff where Cultivation should honestly have a negligible or no effect whatsoever.

Like Bureaucracy. A Prism cultivator might be able to melt a hole through a mountain accidentally by glaring at it too hard, but that shouldn't in any way help filling in a Ministry of Communication Request for a Ministry office in a border town (Subtype 13A with resource package seven and adjustment Cyan-15-12-189-D(X))
 
I mean, I get that with Cultivation scaling a lot of tests get massive boosts.

But there's also a bunch of stuff where Cultivation should honestly have a negligible or no effect whatsoever.

Like Bureaucracy. A Prism cultivator might be able to melt a hole through a mountain accidentally by glaring at it too hard, but that shouldn't in any way help filling in a Ministry of Communication Request for a Ministry office in a border town (Subtype 13A with resource package seven and adjustment Cyan-15-12-189-D(X))
Cultivation affects your mind just as much as your body.
 
I'm just glad that I've chosen not to concern myself with this stuff. It seems like a lot of stress and time for some marginal improvements to a secondary aspect of the quest. At the moment the system seems to work and none of the critiques I've seen so far have dealt with game-breaking issues, only how things could be made better or make more sense.

So, I say to all of this complaining... meh.
 
I'm just glad that I've chosen not to concern myself with this stuff. It seems like a lot of stress and time for some marginal improvements to a secondary aspect of the quest. At the moment the system seems to work and none of the critiques I've seen so far have dealt with game-breaking issues, only how things could be made better or make more sense.

So, I say to all of this complaining... meh.
You know really it is. I can understand.
 
the main problem with the idea is that it makes a lot of characters much more samey in their stat spreads. Same thing with discarding attributes entirely, but that gets into the issue of having to rework the whole system again
The question I'd ask though is why does them being different in their stats matter?

Like, is it really their stats that are differentiating people's styles? Or is it actually their Arts and skills?

Take a melee build for instance. You aren't going to have a high strength low dex melee build in practical terms, because both of those stats are core to you. If you start giving people ways to get around that, by say using Dex for both hit and pen, then you're already breaking the system to give you that.

Or, for instance, how do you show that Suyin's a big nerd? Is it her high Int? or is it her high academics and formations?

Dodge vs tank? Do you need Dex and Stamina to distinguish those? Or does dodge and fortitude + art choices already do everything?

(though yes, system rework issues are a problem)
 
I mean, I get that with Cultivation scaling a lot of tests get massive boosts.

But there's also a bunch of stuff where Cultivation should honestly have a negligible or no effect whatsoever.

Like Bureaucracy. A Prism cultivator might be able to melt a hole through a mountain accidentally by glaring at it too hard, but that shouldn't in any way help filling in a Ministry of Communication Request for a Ministry office in a border town (Subtype 13A with resource package seven and adjustment Cyan-15-12-189-D(X))
To expand on the whole mind and body thing, cultivation is described in the genre going back to the beginning with stories like Journey To The West to affect your personal enlightenment and mind and or insight. A lot of advancement comes from traveling around and finding enlightenment in the sublime or the philosophical.

On more FoD things we've met bureaucracy cultivators, and our boss lady is one in large part.
 
We know that cultivators have improved memories. I wonder how far that goes? At first it is just not forgetting things, but maybe eventually they can remember things they didn't notice the first time. Or their minds are improved enough that they always notice everything the first time.
 
I mean, I get that with Cultivation scaling a lot of tests get massive boosts.

But there's also a bunch of stuff where Cultivation should honestly have a negligible or no effect whatsoever.

Like Bureaucracy. A Prism cultivator might be able to melt a hole through a mountain accidentally by glaring at it too hard, but that shouldn't in any way help filling in a Ministry of Communication Request for a Ministry office in a border town (Subtype 13A with resource package seven and adjustment Cyan-15-12-189-D(X))
It makes perfect sense!

Now, imagine that you are a yellow career bureaucrat working for one of the imperial ministries and a random red common cultivator comes to you with an improperly filled out request form. You tell them fill it properly and with better handwriting before coming back later. After all, you are already overworked and so you simply don't have the time or inclination to pander to lowborn trash.

Now, imagine the same scenario, but with a prism cultivator coming to you with no paperwork at all. Are you really saying you wouldn't just kowtow and tell them you will handle everything?
 
I'm just glad that I've chosen not to concern myself with this stuff. It seems like a lot of stress and time for some marginal improvements to a secondary aspect of the quest. At the moment the system seems to work and none of the critiques I've seen so far have dealt with game-breaking issues, only how things could be made better or make more sense.

So, I say to all of this complaining... meh.
Ha. I can't even imagine running a number-based quest like this. If I did run a quest I'd want the votes to be narrative and char sheets to be as minimalist as possible.
 
Ha. I can't even imagine running a number-based quest like this. If I did run a quest I'd want the votes to be narrative and char sheets to be as minimalist as possible.
A man after my own line of thought!

On other topics I got to thinking again about Stuff. @yrsillar has Ling Qi come across any lore or books which state Xuan Wu can grow spirit stone deposits on top of their shells? I feel like this may have come up at some point and that it got very lost in the old thread.

With that asked, onto the Stuff. It is surprisingly hard to come up with a topic about the wider quest which isn't one of the standard topics like arts or spirits or like progression. But I did.


One is an interpretation of what Elder Hua Heng laid out in the second update:
"Then allow me to begin the lecture on advanced qi theory," he began smoothly as the last voices fell silent. "You are, each and every one of you a cultivator who has either reached the third realm or will in the near future. A significant number of you will even achieve the fourth, or perhaps higher realms. As such, it is important to ground yourself in the deeper lore of how qi functions. The simple pattern imitation of lower realms will not avail you as you advance toward the peak of the third realm and beyond," Ling Qi carefully transcribed his every word, her brush flying across the page with a speed and grace that would have been impossible for her mere months ago.

"The first piece of knowledge that you must scribe into your mind is that qi is fundamental to all things," As the ghostly man spoke, ribbons of water rose from the water beneath him, twining around his seated form in an intricate display of control. "It is the clay from which we were shaped by the hands of Those Who Were, and it is the true form of all things. The earth and the sky are composed of qi, as is the flame and the heavenly bolt."

The mist and the waters shaped themselves above and around the Elder, shaping a scene of two indistinct but titanic figures locked in battle with innumerable things of terrible shape. "However, this world is impure. Stained by the blood and essence of those who sought our destruction ere the world was born, it is riddled with toxin and corruption. Age, disease, all the maladies of the mortal condition are born from this impurity. The art of cultivation then, is expelling ever more of this impurity, until the body and soul are fully cleansed," his scratchy voice rang out over the silent grotto as the shapes in the water and mist faded, splashing back into the pool.

"It is a task beyond the vast majority of us," He continued dryly, gesturing to himself. "All things in this world are composed of qi and impurities, and straining out the whole of the latter is a task only the most talented may ever accomplish."

The conclusion I came to is that back in the beginning of the Forge world, assuming the story of Those Who Were is mostly accurate, all of the greater spirit entities fought and each used their own individual energies and methods. What I read Hua Heng as getting at is that the energy that the Nameless Ones used became what we know as Qi, and these other energies that became seemingly corrupted in the spilling of their user's "blood" could have become it or an equivalent as well. Which ties into the whole impurity cultivation idea that's been floated around before, and which I have no interest in pursuing.

The second thing that passed through my head was a desire to speculate a little bit to get discussion going again because I am really bored. So, a question. Why do people think these things which are all made up of Qi stay in stable forms for the most part? Of course one of the obvious answers is the Great Spirits have enough influence over the world to keep it as they like it, but I want to hear what other opinions or speculations might be out there. Additionally even this obvious answer has an question tied up to it which is interesting to me, that being, how would they do it? Do they control the qi inherent in all objects? Or do they use some other medium like things being their own bodies in a realistic sense? These kinds of further order questions are why I'm interested in other's ideas.
 
The second thing that passed through my head was a desire to speculate a little bit to get discussion going again because I am really bored. So, a question. Why do people think these things which are all made up of Qi stay in stable forms for the most part? Of course one of the obvious answers is the Great Spirits have enough influence over the world to keep it as they like it, but I want to hear what other opinions or speculations might be out there. Additionally even this obvious answer has an question tied up to it which is interesting to me, that being, how would they do it? Do they control the qi inherent in all objects? Or do they use some other medium like things being their own bodies in a realistic sense? These kinds of further order questions are why I'm interested in other's ideas.
Well, my first thought is actually that the Forge of Destiny world operates upon Platonic Forms, and qi is derivative of those forms. An interesting aspect of the lecture is that qi "is the true form of all things." This just sounds like something from Platonic Forms, and it might be that there is a possible connection between the two ideas. That there is an ideal form of something that is represented by qi, or that qi is the mold upon which the Platonic forms are created and thus imprinted upon the actual world.

A less outlandish idea is that qi is the building blocks of matter and energy. Similar to how reality has subatomic particles and photons which can act suspiciously like they have mass while also behaving like energy. Qi could be something similar, the gloop from which matter and energy are crafted.

I'm not sure that the Great Spirits have control over the world to keep it the way that they like it, although that is a possibility. I believe that the great spirits that we know about are simply a purified expression of an aspect that is already inherent in the world. Rather than the Great spirits controlling aspects of the world to match themselves, the Great spirits exemplify aspects that already exist in the world.

And this is why I believe that viewing the FoD world through the lens of Platonic Forms has some merit. That there are forms inherent to the world that cultivators are trying to exemplify and the closest knowledge we have of doing so is becoming a great spirit. This idea has problems, however, in that to my understanding of traditional idea about Platonic Form is that there is a finite number of such forms. With the number of cultivators over the years and the impossibility of completely copying a domain, it seems like either there is an infinite of the Platonic Forms or there is an infinite combination of Platonic Forms.

The idea that Platonic forms govern FoD really suffers, however, with the differences between the cultures and how they treat great spirits. In the Pillar-Men culture, for example, the Sun is much more dangerous and deadly than in the Empire, where it is more benevolent. This indicates that the environment of the culture actually affects how people treat and deal with Great Spirits and how the Great Spirits deal with them if they are the same at all which is a questionable proposition. These discrepancies with how the Great Spirits act between cultures and environments supports the idea that the Great Spirits exemplify aspects in the world, but that Great Spirits are more local and are actually exemplifying a local aspect of the world. Which kind of thrashes the idea of Platonic Forms that could be universially applied to the FoD world.
 
On the stat thing @yrsillar too much work, too much confusion for marginal gains. Don't muck with it until Thread Three or something.
I've seen too many quests dead from manslaughter out of mechanical perfectionism. Everyone meant well too.

Well, my first thought is actually that the Forge of Destiny world operates upon Platonic Forms, and qi is derivative of those forms. An interesting aspect of the lecture is that qi "is the true form of all things." This just sounds like something from Platonic Forms, and it might be that there is a possible connection between the two ideas. That there is an ideal form of something that is represented by qi, or that qi is the mold upon which the Platonic forms are created and thus imprinted upon the actual world.

A less outlandish idea is that qi is the building blocks of matter and energy. Similar to how reality has subatomic particles and photons which can act suspiciously like they have mass while also behaving like energy. Qi could be something similar, the gloop from which matter and energy are crafted.

I'm not sure that the Great Spirits have control over the world to keep it the way that they like it, although that is a possibility. I believe that the great spirits that we know about are simply a purified expression of an aspect that is already inherent in the world. Rather than the Great spirits controlling aspects of the world to match themselves, the Great spirits exemplify aspects that already exist in the world.

And this is why I believe that viewing the FoD world through the lens of Platonic Forms has some merit. That there are forms inherent to the world that cultivators are trying to exemplify and the closest knowledge we have of doing so is becoming a great spirit. This idea has problems, however, in that to my understanding of traditional idea about Platonic Form is that there is a finite number of such forms. With the number of cultivators over the years and the impossibility of completely copying a domain, it seems like either there is an infinite of the Platonic Forms or there is an infinite combination of Platonic Forms.

The idea that Platonic forms govern FoD really suffers, however, with the differences between the cultures and how they treat great spirits. In the Pillar-Men culture, for example, the Sun is much more dangerous and deadly than in the Empire, where it is more benevolent. This indicates that the environment of the culture actually affects how people treat and deal with Great Spirits and how the Great Spirits deal with them if they are the same at all which is a questionable proposition. These discrepancies with how the Great Spirits act between cultures and environments supports the idea that the Great Spirits exemplify aspects in the world, but that Great Spirits are more local and are actually exemplifying a local aspect of the world. Which kind of thrashes the idea of Platonic Forms that could be universially applied to the FoD world.
Think if anything its the inverse. There are no platonic absolutes in the setting. Cultivation is ultimately solipsism, everything, even objects, have an intensely personal perspective which grows with power and can force this personal perspective onto others. Thats the story of the Mother and Father, they are the weird things who have a personal perspective that explicitly requires interaction with another perspective by their definitions, which allows the junction of their interactions to produce a world where things that can interact with other things in non-destructive ways are the norm.

As you go up the ladder, your "I Am" becomes so potent that others can see it and go "I Am Like That But", while at the bottom of the ladder you can only define yourself by other things.
 
Well, my first thought is actually that the Forge of Destiny world operates upon Platonic Forms, and qi is derivative of those forms. An interesting aspect of the lecture is that qi "is the true form of all things." This just sounds like something from Platonic Forms, and it might be that there is a possible connection between the two ideas. That there is an ideal form of something that is represented by qi, or that qi is the mold upon which the Platonic forms are created and thus imprinted upon the actual world.

A less outlandish idea is that qi is the building blocks of matter and energy. Similar to how reality has subatomic particles and photons which can act suspiciously like they have mass while also behaving like energy. Qi could be something similar, the gloop from which matter and energy are crafted.

I'm not sure that the Great Spirits have control over the world to keep it the way that they like it, although that is a possibility. I believe that the great spirits that we know about are simply a purified expression of an aspect that is already inherent in the world. Rather than the Great spirits controlling aspects of the world to match themselves, the Great spirits exemplify aspects that already exist in the world.

And this is why I believe that viewing the FoD world through the lens of Platonic Forms has some merit. That there are forms inherent to the world that cultivators are trying to exemplify and the closest knowledge we have of doing so is becoming a great spirit. This idea has problems, however, in that to my understanding of traditional idea about Platonic Form is that there is a finite number of such forms. With the number of cultivators over the years and the impossibility of completely copying a domain, it seems like either there is an infinite of the Platonic Forms or there is an infinite combination of Platonic Forms.

The idea that Platonic forms govern FoD really suffers, however, with the differences between the cultures and how they treat great spirits. In the Pillar-Men culture, for example, the Sun is much more dangerous and deadly than in the Empire, where it is more benevolent. This indicates that the environment of the culture actually affects how people treat and deal with Great Spirits and how the Great Spirits deal with them if they are the same at all which is a questionable proposition. These discrepancies with how the Great Spirits act between cultures and environments supports the idea that the Great Spirits exemplify aspects in the world, but that Great Spirits are more local and are actually exemplifying a local aspect of the world. Which kind of thrashes the idea of Platonic Forms that could be universially applied to the FoD world.
I like this and it is a very interesting idea. The Platonic Forms in there basic level are a philosophical outlook which splits the essence of a thing, something similar being referred to in Catholic theology as "substance", and the physicality of a thing i.e the thing you hold in your hand, which was referred to as the "person" from what I recall.

We know qi can take on shapes and that those shapes are given associations, Lake and joy for example. I'm interested in the idea of qi acting as a mold for ideas of an essence like nature like the Forms but I'm not sure where to go with that.

Anyway the idea of qi as the primordial gloop would basically fit with what Hua Heng is describing. There is a question that comes up here. What is qi? What is it's expanse, depth and measure? So far we've described it as energy and that hasn't been contested by anything in the lore of FoD or in the lore of Xianxia in general where it is described as a motive energy or life energy or Force of Being if you will. It is inherent to things, in the sense that a rock can have qi sitting in it just there existing, and then the rock is itself claimed to be made up of Qi.

This line of thought makes me think of the Prima Materia idea of Alchemical and Gnostic fame.

Fun speculation tangents we can get to at some point.

On the nature of Great Spirit's interactions for the material world. Something to chew over is that by information we have been told that Domains are utterly unique, and they are the root from which grows the Great Spirit. So by that measure the idea that people are wholesale creating Platonic Forms out of nothing but their own heads occurs to me as possible. (I'm not challenging your position, that's not the point of this little speculation fest)

Spirits exemplifying certain aspects of a world would be something interesting because you get this chicken and egg question of "What made those aspects?" which the immediate answer for is the Mother and Father and that they contained everything within them. Which leads into the idea that cultivation is actually a Time of Troubles esque resurrection bid to reforge themselves out of all the separate Great Spirits who are their descendants after said descendants get done filling out the metaphorical coloring book of aspects. Unknowing Fetich Souls yo.

Coming back down from that particular high peak of What? there's your point about the lack of universality for the Platonic Forms idea you had. There is this sort of locality to the Forge world(I'm gonna misspell that as Forgeworld at some point and make an inadvertent reference). Perhaps what it is is that Great Spirits exemplify an given aspect of a given culture. Some cultures are going to have less occurrences of one aspect vs another, like your hostile Sun and benevolent Sun comparison and that could tilt what cultivators go for.

The use of local Platonic Forms could be done because as we know most Way's are not singular concepts, sort of. They are singular composite concepts, made out of lesser and simpler concepts. Like Emperor An becoming Inexorable Justice, a specific facet of Justice, modified with the concept of Inexorability(Dude musta been mountain as fuck by the way).

Another thought I am considering is that the resting state of the Forge world is chaos of shifting qi environments as described in the past, which is a line of thought with it's own questions like "What supports that idea and notion that the primordial chaos is the 'simplest state'?", where you have lakes of fire, spires of flowing earth, and lakes of solid wood or something really weird. Faerie lands basically. The thing here is that there basically is no unexplored land where this could happen. Hell we don't even know if this world is a sphere. Could be there's a boundary somewhere and when you get near it your presence tows along your associated Great Spirits and forms something out of the nothing beyond the boundary.
 
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