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Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

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[X] Defend and Counter

Alectai said:
Local Turtle is Fucking Invincible
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Welcome to News at Six.

Tonights story is how a local turtle becomes a local hero. But first an ad about the dangers of assassins.

*A short and cringy ad about assassins*

Now back to the story.

A local town nearly became overran by all sorts of awful bugs this evening.

Indeed Darleen! However a local turtle stepped up in a big way when he created a living rampart that stopped the bugs advance cold. For more let's go to John in the field. Well John?

* Three seconds of super awkward silence as the camera pans to a hellscape of fire and dissolving bugs*

Yes Bob! As we can see behind me a virtual horde of bugs descended on a town but a local turtle, which members of the community say is named Zhengui, has been busy spearing them with roots or eating the bugs alive. The turtle has also proved to be INVINCIBLE when a truely massive bug tried to turn the tables and eat him. That bug is now draped across the field like an awful elementary school banner. Back to you Bob.

What an aspiring story! What do you think Darleen?

Indeed it shows that someone can accomplish anything they want to as long as they put their mind to it and are able to summon root spears.

Now onto a report of a lovers quarrel getting out of hand on the slopes of Icebreaker Peak.
 
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[X] Defend and Counter

How does the saying go? "Give a pound of flesh to take two?" "Break bones to shatter bones?" "Give an arm and seize victory?"
 
Some misconceptions around, not saying no arguments are valid (tehchron makes an excellent point about the potential value gain) but some of these aren't:
Alectai said:
Ling Qi isn't going to stand still.

The point is that Ling Qi is deceptively tanky, and with TRU online, she's going to be nigh impossible to decisively put down by anything that we have any business fighting. As the update didn't end with Ling Qi's decapitation, we can logically determine that this guy's in our weight class.

A sustained fight is not in our favor, because most of us are nearly tapped out, so we want to take the choice that front loads as much of the fight as we possibly can. SCS leaves him entirely unharmed, and pitting his greatest strength against our tertiary traits while we're low on Qi.

Beyond that? It's not the "Single tag" that will get him. It's "Hitting him hard, poisoning him, and then locking down his position where Xiulan can throw a sun at him. If he's still alive at that point, he's going to be having second thoughts about this whole 'Sneak around and ninja' thing. And that presumes that Sixiang has to spend all their time dispelling us instead of dispelling his stealth buffs.
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  1. Half tank isn't "nearly tapped out", especially with regen effects in full force and a bunch of our techs including mist already deployed (though the mist is some distance away apparently).
  2. A sustained fight is totally in our favor given the assassin doesn't have his most powerful weapon (the initial surprise attack), our ability to scale our offense, and eventual sect reinforcements putting the assassin on a time limit. Finishing the fight fast is, however, how we can get a kill instead of just foiling the attack.
  3. Relying on TRU to take the hit is not a safe move. We have good reason to believe we'll survive it and at least follow through with a counterattack, but the degree of damage we sustain and potential consequences aren't something we can just write off. Not on B34 health with B10 armor.

Ayashi said:
The TRF tech no-sells crippling effects, so no it couldn't.
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The exact wording (relevant parts highlighted) is:
By calling upon the image of their power, the user gains some measure of their primeval resilience, ignoring minor wounds entirely, and lessening the effect of greater ones. Under this affect, the user becomes utterly immovable to enemy action, and cannot be grappled, unless the enemy's cultivation exceeds theirs by two levels or one realm. This effect may be extended to up to ten allies. So long as this effect is active, the user cannot be incapacitated, any blow that would reduce their health to that point instead reduces it to the lowest rank possible. On activation of this aspect, Thousand Rings Unbreaking is automatically dispelled. This effect may only activate once per scene.
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The only guarantees provided by TRU is that we'll sustain less damage (down from the "near-decapitation" we've seen), and that we'll survive a killing/incapacitating blow with minimum-level functionality.

Crippling of various forms (cut vocal cords, scarring etc) is totally on the table, and that's ignoring the extremely toxic poison we know is on the blade, for which TRU does nothing and TRF itself is only a small help.
 
I would argue that--given what we know about by the time you're green, a Cultivator's body is sort of aligned to trend towards their personal self-image--that he'd have to effectively pierce into Ling Qi's self-image and rewrite it to leave a scar and a crippling wound beyond the healers ability to mend. That's an ability that seems beyond the scope of what a third realm should be capable of until they're already pushing up on the Cyan barrier.

I'm not saying that there's zero risk at all with this strategy. But with Ling Qi's current wounds being superficial (She was stated at being 'Roughly 90% healthish'), and TRU's damage reduction (Which applies before any armor or health damage is calculated I might add), that this guy would need a combined damage total of something on the lines of SS to render Ling Qi combat ineffective without TRU.

We can't do that even with the Theoretically Optimal Call to Ending impact, a technique that requires something on the lines of three, four turns of set-up time that falls apart against any enemy with good dispels that we're exposed for the whole duration of. The idea he can do it without any risk while still being theoretically in the same league as us seems ludicrous, that kind of build should be able to absolutely style on virtually everyone in the setting if it scales up accordingly.
 
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[X] Defend and Counter

The fact that Ling Qi knows the nature of the poison will hopefully lessen the consequences of taking it through a stat upgrade.
 
[X] Move and Reorient


So I'm reconsidering here, for a number of reasons, namely that I'm more concerned with us not dealing with a poison than I am with getting to the beast swarm asap if that means we're wounded during.

I still feel that either reaction is ok.

The hard part here will be keeping Zhengui focused on the damn swarm while we're in sight in actual, mortal peril.

If this turns into a rout, Zhengui pivoting to try to tackle an almost worst case*build matchup for him is how.

*The elements and themes are good, as Purification meets Rot. Everything else is shit for best boi. He can't see and he's can't hit it.
 
Alectai said:
I would argue that--given what we know about by the time you're green, a Cultivator's body is sort of aligned to trend towards their personal self-image--that he'd have to effectively pierce into Ling Qi's self-image and rewrite it to leave a scar and a crippling wound beyond the healers ability to mend. That's an ability that seems beyond the scope of what a third realm should be capable of until they're already pushing up on the Cyan barrier.

I'm not saying that there's zero risk at all with this strategy. But with Ling Qi's current wounds being superficial (She was stated at being 'Roughly 90% healthish'), and TRU's damage reduction (Which applies before any armor or health damage is calculated I might add), that this guy would need a combined damage total of something on the lines of SS to render Ling Qi combat ineffective without TRU.

We can't do that even with the Theoretically Optimal Call to Ending impact, a technique that requires something on the lines of three, four turns of set-up time that falls apart against any enemy with good dispels that we're exposed for the whole duration of. The idea he can do it without any risk while still being theoretically in the same league as us seems ludicrous, that kind of build should be able to absolutely style on virtually everyone in the setting if it scales up accordingly.
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We're talking about "crippled for (this) battle" not "permanently crippled for life". Or at least I am and have been.

There's a huge range between combat-optimal and combat-ineffective and it includes plenty of levels of debilitated.

That Ling Qi's tech requires multiple combat turns of set-up for optimal damage does not mean an assassin's does. It's more likely an assassin's optimal damage depends on pre-combat set up and a completely unready target. Which is a reason why it's not likely to be easily repeatable, and is why the argument that dodging the assassin leads to doom doesn't make sense to me.
 
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Assassins in this genre traditionally have to pay a price for that all powerful first strike capacity. That price they pay tends to be "And if that all powerful first strike fails, you're fucking dead or otherwise at the mercy of whoever you just tried to kill."

If you could just use this as an alpha strike and then safely fight normally, the only thing anyone would ever do would be first strike assassin builds, because if you can kill someone in a single blow without repercussion thanks to your stealth memes, then you're more likely to survive and pass your teachings on than someone who was an idiot who fought directly or in a method that didn't kill someone in a single blow."

We've seen no signs that these are the case, implying that it's as viable a choice as any other, with trade-offs and advantages gained from them.

Which means that there's probably a hell of a downside to such a powerful stealth + first strike ability. I would argue this is probably "To reach this level of stealth, you can't really have any active techniques that do anything but stealth, which means if the other guy catches you or doesn't die, you are probably dead"
 
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[] Defend and Counter

We have to start this encounter with some kind of hit. Also points I haven't seen made yet are
1. Ling Qi's Fairy Flower hairpiece.
- When under threat, the rustling of its petals fortells the spread of hallucinatory pollen.
2. Sixiang's Phantasmal Revel's Regrets
- Releasing a pulse of chaotic qi into the environment at Close range. Designed to emulate the fogging effects of heavy inebriation.

We are well prepared to be able to tank this hit and send a flurry of close range effects at this fool. I believe this is crucial because it will give our allies a better fighting chance.
 
Alectai said:
Assassins in this genre traditionally have to pay a price for that all powerful first strike capacity. That price they pay tends to be "And if that all powerful first strike fails, you're fucking dead or otherwise at the mercy of whoever you just tried to kill."

If you could just use this as an alpha strike and then safely fight normally, the only thing anyone would ever do would be first strike assassin builds, because if you can kill someone in a single blow without repercussion thanks to your stealth memes, then you're more likely to survive and pass your teachings on than someone who was an idiot who fought directly or in a method that didn't kill someone in a single blow."

We've seen no signs that these are the case, implying that it's as viable a choice as any other, with trade-offs and advantages gained from them.

Which means that there's probably a hell of a downside to such a powerful stealth + first strike ability. I would argue this is probably "To reach this level of stealth, you can't really have any active techniques that do anything but stealth, which means if the other guy catches you or doesn't die, you are probably dead"
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All the more reason to dodge then...? The more emphasis placed on the first strike, the more that dodging neutralizes the threat.
 
larkins said:
All the more reason to dodge then...? The more emphasis placed on the first strike, the more that dodging neutralizes the threat.
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Because then he's still there, he can try again when we're distracted, or go for a softer target.

The correct choice to someone trying to slit your throat isn't to wriggle out, laugh uproariously and go "BETTER LUCK NEXT TIME FRIEND", it's turn around and put your fist through them. If you get hurt in turn, so be it.

But the shenanigans this guy's been up to demand response, and we are in a position to offer it. That it risks us getting hurt doesn't mean it's a bad choice--we won't get far if the possibility of serious harm is enough for us to retreat in our place of power.
 
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Alectai said:
Assassins in this genre traditionally have to pay a price for that all powerful first strike capacity. That price they pay tends to be "And if that all powerful first strike fails, you're fucking dead or otherwise at the mercy of whoever you just tried to kill."

If you could just use this as an alpha strike and then safely fight normally, the only thing anyone would ever do would be first strike assassin builds, because if you can kill someone in a single blow without repercussion thanks to your stealth memes, then you're more likely to survive and pass your teachings on than someone who was an idiot who fought directly or in a method that didn't kill someone in a single blow."

We've seen no signs that these are the case.

Which means that there's probably a hell of a downside to such a powerful stealth + first strike ability. I would argue this is probably "To reach this level of stealth, you can't really have any active techniques that do anything but stealth, which means if the other guy catches you or doesn't die, you are probably dead"
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I'm not totally sure I agree. I floated earlier the notion of specialized assassin offensive techs that have massive bonuses against unprepared/unaware enemies, but are less effective in straight-up fights than a more general combat art would allow. It would still be an alpha strike sort of build, but one based on killing cultivators before they can get defenses up rather than on blowing through defenses. A garrote, rather than a slow-reloading cannon.

(Also, I suspect this person's stealth art might focus entirely on hiding from spiritual senses, rather than having ancillary benefits to mobility the way our own stealth arts do.)
 
Alectai said:
Because then he's still there, he can try again when we're distracted, or go for a softer target.

The correct choice to someone trying to slit your throat isn't to wriggle out, laugh uproariously and go "BETTER LUCK NEXT TIME FRIEND", it's turn around and put your fist through them. If you get hurt in turn, so be it.

But the shenanigans this guy's been up to demand response, and we are in a position to offer it. That it risks us getting hurt doesn't mean it's a bad choice--we won't get far if the possibility of serious harm is enough for us to retreat in our place of power.
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How can a "first strike or bust" assassin simply "try again"? It doesn't fit with the traditional price you laid out previously.

If the assassin's specialty is alphastriking unready targets then dodging is the right move (deny the alphastrike), and that seems to be the likely scenario.

If the assassin's specialty is reentering stealth and hitting unaware targets then tanking is the right move (deny the re-stealth) but it seems unlikely that such an assassin would manage to 1-hit kill a green with no response from that green (not even stumbling around as he dies).
 
larkins said:
How can a "first strike or bust" assassin simply "try again"? It doesn't fit with the traditional price you laid out previously.

If the assassin's specialty is alphastriking unready targets then dodging is the right move (deny the alphastrike), and that seems to be the likely scenario.

If the assassin's specialty is reentering stealth and hitting unaware targets then tanking is the right move (deny the re-stealth) but it seems unlikely that such an assassin would manage to 1-hit kill a green with no response from that green (not even stumbling around as he dies).
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Because that is a good assassin's counterplay in case of emergency--just like ours is "Try not to get hit, but if you do, make sure it doesn't take you out". The counterplay in their case is "Disengage and re-establish stealth, try again when I get another opening." This is also what happens when he tries what he's trying now--singling out one target in a group that's on alert.

He has already failed his one shot when he was detected, we're deciding what our priority is. Avoiding harm or eliminating the threat.

And we are--based on the existence of the Perception buffs and surrounded by friends, allies, and our area of responsibility--already at our point of no retreat as stated in our Domain. The answer is not to cede further ground, it's to turn the intruder into a fine red mist
 
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