The Lords of Ruin -- Battletech/Killzone
- Thread starter prometheus110
- Start date
- Crossover
Kanata.EXE
Programmer
- Location
- Indonesia
Do we have a justification to go to war against the Mandate?
It's been a long time, so I don't remember if we have one.
It's been a long time, so I don't remember if we have one.
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Forgothrax
Not Going Gently
- Pronouns
- He/Him
... uh, no? That is not how we roll. We don't attack people unprovoked. Our wars so far have been against the Mandate after a bioweapon attack, and against the Marian Hegemony after a sustained raiding campaign against an ally. Going "we want that clay, YOINK!" would probably result in most of our population demonstrating in the streets at best and initiating Revolt 2.0 at the worst.
A Casus Belli? No.
KnightofTempest
The Man who would be King
- Location
- Chicago
How we roll won't get Fronc to join us. That's sort of the point, you guys have been too committed to peaceable interactions. There's a limit to what that will get you in terms of expansion.
We don't need one? Casus Belli haven't been a thing since WW2. In Modern Times it's all about geopolitics.
In Battletech we don't even need that much
Geopolitics dictates we go after them before they finish building up their nukes. Because there is no realistic way for them to be peaceable with us.
Kanata.EXE
Programmer
- Location
- Indonesia
Counterpoint. Do our citizens want us to act like conquerors? The answer is no.
From discord:
Genolution
Hello there
You aren't making the argument you think you're making, you know that, right? When you say that we can only annex Fronc via conquest, the idea becomes that we write off annexing Fronc any time soon, not that we invade Fronc. The players are peaceable in the Rimward Periphery because the players don't plan on shitting where they eat.
- Location
- SEAsia
- Pronouns
- Thou
I guess you want more drama in the form of civil discord back home on Helghan yea? You could probs start up a decent civil war if you commit enough to it.
KnightofTempest
The Man who would be King
- Location
- Chicago
Counterpoint. Do our citizens want us to act like conquerors? The answer is no.
From discord:
Then I suggest you give up on trying to get Fronc.
They don't want to join us and have no intrigue levers to pull.
I'm concerned about you guys not wanting to attack places like the Mandate, who have explicitly been building up their nuclear arsenal and fortifying their worlds in preparation for Round 2 with us.
Would you rather wait until one of our worlds is nuked to death to go to war with them?
As I said, then you should give up on Fronc. We have no way to get them to join us outside conquest atm.
They do not want to join us and have no intrigue levers to pull.
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- Location
- SEAsia
- Pronouns
- Thou
Dude, all Im hearing is, "We either bash in the door, or we go home. I don't wanna go through the whole 'et's say hello to the neighbors and befriend them till they invite us over for dinner' dance routine thing."
Genolution
Hello there
We haven't talked about giving up on the Mandate? There are regular discussions about how a Mandate War 2 would go, plans of execution, handling of casus bellis, heck, there are even maps of proposed borders for how we plan on dismembering the Mandate after the war! Similarly, there are discussions on how to manipulate the situation in the Pleiades so that we have advantages in the war, there are discussions of how such a hypothetical Pleiades War would be executed and conducted, etc.
Forgothrax
Not Going Gently
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I mean, the update called out that we're going to have to play a little dirty. That means connecting them to our WarpComm network and feeding them AgitProp, that means finding groups that support us and supporting them, that means playing diplomatic games to endear the population to us. It's do-able, we just aren't going to find it very easy.
Right now we have no evidence that the Mandate is planning an attack on us. That might change, either because we find some evidence (I plan on doing some fun infiltration!) or we find some evidence, if you get what I'm saying. I'm not super worried about nukes because we have utter aerospace dominance. Nuclear terrorism is another matter, but unfortunately we can't do very much about that. If anything, attacking them is likely to lead to a higher risk of nuclear terrorism because Romano might decide that revenge via sneakily delivered nuclear weapons is worth it to her.
How we roll seems to have worked out so far. The formation of ORDI has brought stability to the Rimward Periphery has not known in centuries. A number of worlds have had their standard of living massively increased. All of this was accomplished by diplomacy (for the most part).
Chaos Undivided
Self-Requested Ban
Cant we just try to do trade agreement with Fronc and try to treat them the way USA might treat lets say Poland ? Just because they wont give up independence doesnt mean they arent going to work with us.
- Location
- Africa
this battletech perceived threat if often enough all the cause for war the astropolitical actors need to go lunch a (often unprovoked) pre-emptive strike or at least a few dozen large scale raids
The problem with conquer Fronc is that its was colonized by people coming from the MOC and TC, so us going to the war with Fronc might give us problems with MOC and TC
Forgothrax
Not Going Gently
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Unfortunately (ish), our population disagrees.
OpSihg_Stabr
Crazy (Evil) Genius
How about we try to turn our propoganda engine to encouraging some... 'Productive Paranoia' in our populace concerning the (actually quite real) 'perceived threat' of the Celestial Mandate.
Whilst doing so we get a secret ORDI Council going to ask our allies: 'Do you guys want to go conquer the Celestial Mandate?'
I'm all for that, lets do the thing.
Let the Inner Sphere come to know the determined ferocity of our gas-mask wearing brethren!
Forgothrax
Not Going Gently
- Pronouns
- He/Him
So, thoughts about the next turn.
-The Marian Hegemony is still in a fragile state, but we've somewhat stabilized it. I guess the question is, do we need to keep poking or should we back off? I'm guessing that pushing for more redistribution might not be a good idea unless we are willing to shoot some nobles and their revanchists. But it might not be a bad idea to keep backing the people we like while disrupting the ones we don't. Our groups are now pretty much the most influential across the MH, with only the Governor and a few nobles differing. I'm expecting to spend 1-2 AP a turn for the near future (on top of the 1AP locked to rebuilding their infra in 3042).
-Fronc will require significant effort to bring in, but they are the biggest and most industrialized world in the region. It's probably not an exaggeration to say that Fronc has more people than every other nonaligned planet in the area combined. I'm thinking that we need to go for a two pronged approach.
First, we're going to use diplomacy and carrots. I was planning on extending the WarpComm network to everyone in the local area who will take us up on it. This will give us a channel for propaganda, and will increase our government's ability to talk to their Fronc opposites. We can also utilize our position to get a trade deal settled through the ORDI customs union. Doing the same thing we did to Detroit and opening up our financial sector to theirs to allow them to get cheap loans would probably be helpful, too. Finally, I've asked Prometheus and he said it might be possible for us to actually set up a mech factory there like it was any other business (although splitting between the two factions would be difficult). Doing so would result in an ideal end-point (us getting most of the mechs) while tying us into their society in a way that will make us look rather attractive. We get mechs, the locals get a few mechs plus jobs and tax revenue. Win-win.
Secondly, we're going to use infiltration and propaganda. That means that we apply agitprop, contact and support groups that are sympathetic to us, perform operations against those unsympathetic (discrediting and such, not assassinations!)
It's a long road, but I think we can pull them into the fold with time.
-The Taurian conservatives are an issue and we can no longer ignore them. I'm open to ideas in how to handle them. I'm thinking that pushing propaganda based around how ORDI has given them good things, especially when we pass out free Helm Core copies, would be good. We can also play things a little more underhandedly by doing things like buying out the broadcast organizations that these people are using and squeezing them out, utilizing our power over the WarpComm network to prevent craziness from being broadcast easily, etc. The key is going to be to reduce their overall profile while smothering anyone who isn't a hardcore conservative in pro-ORDI and leftist propaganda.
-We need to call an ORDI conference. There are a number of topics to discuss here. First, the Taurian-FS border pirates probably need an expedition to suppress, whether that's smoking them out of Tortuga and similar worlds or whatnot. Secondly, some discussion of what's going on with the MH remnants would probably not be amiss. Third, we need to discuss if the Capellan option should be adjusted because we now have given everyone Core access. Fourth, yet another tech exchange (warp drive and such) is probably necessary. Fifth, a discussion with regards to the Mandate and the FedSuns worlds trying to go independent is warranted. I'm sure there are other topics.
-The Trinity League. Obviously we need to stick our hands in that some more and start putting fingers on scales. I'm thinking at least one action that's basically "infiltrate their civil administration and get an idea where the levers and fault lines are so we can start putting in effort to rouse the people and work over the autocrats."
-Some sort of work to be done on Appian. The Taurians might not be happy if we swoop in and take it, though.
-I plan on reaching out to ComStar, seeing if we can shake the tree and have anything fall out.
Very interested in opinions as to what people think we need to be doing or not doing.
-The Marian Hegemony is still in a fragile state, but we've somewhat stabilized it. I guess the question is, do we need to keep poking or should we back off? I'm guessing that pushing for more redistribution might not be a good idea unless we are willing to shoot some nobles and their revanchists. But it might not be a bad idea to keep backing the people we like while disrupting the ones we don't. Our groups are now pretty much the most influential across the MH, with only the Governor and a few nobles differing. I'm expecting to spend 1-2 AP a turn for the near future (on top of the 1AP locked to rebuilding their infra in 3042).
-Fronc will require significant effort to bring in, but they are the biggest and most industrialized world in the region. It's probably not an exaggeration to say that Fronc has more people than every other nonaligned planet in the area combined. I'm thinking that we need to go for a two pronged approach.
First, we're going to use diplomacy and carrots. I was planning on extending the WarpComm network to everyone in the local area who will take us up on it. This will give us a channel for propaganda, and will increase our government's ability to talk to their Fronc opposites. We can also utilize our position to get a trade deal settled through the ORDI customs union. Doing the same thing we did to Detroit and opening up our financial sector to theirs to allow them to get cheap loans would probably be helpful, too. Finally, I've asked Prometheus and he said it might be possible for us to actually set up a mech factory there like it was any other business (although splitting between the two factions would be difficult). Doing so would result in an ideal end-point (us getting most of the mechs) while tying us into their society in a way that will make us look rather attractive. We get mechs, the locals get a few mechs plus jobs and tax revenue. Win-win.
Secondly, we're going to use infiltration and propaganda. That means that we apply agitprop, contact and support groups that are sympathetic to us, perform operations against those unsympathetic (discrediting and such, not assassinations!)
It's a long road, but I think we can pull them into the fold with time.
-The Taurian conservatives are an issue and we can no longer ignore them. I'm open to ideas in how to handle them. I'm thinking that pushing propaganda based around how ORDI has given them good things, especially when we pass out free Helm Core copies, would be good. We can also play things a little more underhandedly by doing things like buying out the broadcast organizations that these people are using and squeezing them out, utilizing our power over the WarpComm network to prevent craziness from being broadcast easily, etc. The key is going to be to reduce their overall profile while smothering anyone who isn't a hardcore conservative in pro-ORDI and leftist propaganda.
-We need to call an ORDI conference. There are a number of topics to discuss here. First, the Taurian-FS border pirates probably need an expedition to suppress, whether that's smoking them out of Tortuga and similar worlds or whatnot. Secondly, some discussion of what's going on with the MH remnants would probably not be amiss. Third, we need to discuss if the Capellan option should be adjusted because we now have given everyone Core access. Fourth, yet another tech exchange (warp drive and such) is probably necessary. Fifth, a discussion with regards to the Mandate and the FedSuns worlds trying to go independent is warranted. I'm sure there are other topics.
-The Trinity League. Obviously we need to stick our hands in that some more and start putting fingers on scales. I'm thinking at least one action that's basically "infiltrate their civil administration and get an idea where the levers and fault lines are so we can start putting in effort to rouse the people and work over the autocrats."
-Some sort of work to be done on Appian. The Taurians might not be happy if we swoop in and take it, though.
-I plan on reaching out to ComStar, seeing if we can shake the tree and have anything fall out.
Very interested in opinions as to what people think we need to be doing or not doing.
I don't know how I feel about this. Using official means like you suggested is fine and all but infiltrating Fronc just feels a bit much. I know we wouldn't kill people but infiltrating Fronc to use more underhanded means feels we are not respecting the planet's sovereignty.
- Pronouns
- He
Yes me too. This feels like the same thing Russia is doing rigth now. Why can't we just be friends with them, and offer them something like the same ORDI Observers Membership status deal, as we gave to the Capellan Confederation.
There is still the issue of the two nations that are opposed to each other so offering provisional membership status will be a bit complicated until we sort that out. Maybe we could use that as a carrot when negotiating a compromise between these nations.
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- Pronouns
- He
You know. Maybe we should aim for to make a whole new nation, that's is a mix of those two nation. So now they are gonna share the planet instead of figthing over it. What do you say to that.
I'm going to assume that you are referring to having the two nations merge and not create a third nation. It might be doable we need to know the exact relations between these two nations before attempting anything like that.
- Pronouns
- He
Yeah that's what I mean.
- General agreement regarding the Marians. We'll want to keep supporting reasonable factions (including ones who might not be perfectly aligned with us, but still more palatable than the Roman-cosplaying slavers), and disrupting any that are blatantly detrimental to our/ORDIs interests in the region (ie, imperialistic, pro-slavery, autocratic, etc factions). Could also look into some low-effort means of supporting their economy to increase system stability; tax/tarrif breaks on exports of basic tools, machinery, etc. Possibly look into offering visas and immigration to interested Marians as well; those who are (or at least feel themselves to be) economically disadvantaged tend to be a favored target for various forms of populism and demagoguery.
- For Fronc, we could try to rely on cultural osmosis and passive geo-(stello?)-political pressure; hook them up to our WarpCom network so they can access various forms of ORDI (and particularly Helghan) media, while we keep absorbing various systems near them until they're sandwiched between us and the Canopians. It wouldn't be fast, but chances are we'd see slowly growing sentiments about joining our Republic in the long term.
There's also the possibility of essentially Swiss-i-fying them; ie, Switzerland isn't a member of the EU, but de facto follows something like 99% of the EU's rules and regulations.
I think the main question is whether we want to try and make them join us before the quest ends, or if we're willing to play the long game and focus more on absorbing "easier" targets and building up those worlds that join us, in order to make joining us more attractive as a sort of self-reinforcing loop.
- Regarding the Taurian Right-wingers, I agree that we'll likely need to do something, but I think we should completely focus on doing things above-board, because the moment we start to move against them they'll start to smear us even harder and accuse us of all sorts of under-handed stuff, which makes it all the more important that nothing can be made to stick.
With that in mind, I think our first step should be to talk with the Taurians via our ambassador, voice our concern, and gauge the Taurian government's stance on this and how they'd react if we started to move against it - might be that they'd make some moves against them on their own and wouldn't look kindly upon us messing around in an internal matter.
If we get the go-ahead, though, we should running some low-level counter-propaganda (nothing blatant, but things that calmly refute the Right-wingers points in various ways), launch lawsuits against the Right-wingers companies whenever reasonably feasible, and hire various Taurian private investigators - both individuals and firms - to dig up as much dirt as possible on said right-wingers.
- ORDI conference; we'll definitely want to distribute the Helm Core amongst them (might even offer copies to Niops, the Lothian/Illyrian Leagues, etc), but past that I dunno. The initial offensive aside the Marians mostly concern the Canopians and us, and similarly the pirates on the TC/FS border mostly concern the Taurians, so I don't really feel like that's something that needs to discussed by ORDI as a whole at this point.
And the issue with trading tech is that, IIRC we pretty much cleaned out what our allies had to offer, so I dunno if they even have something they could offer us in trade.
- Trinity League, I'm all for further infiltration, though I figure that the main fault line is that, at their core, they're a bunch of ex-Capellan warlords who conquered those worlds with no regards to the desires of the local population, co-opted various pirate groups (who wouldn't exactly be popular amongst the locals) to become their auxiliaries, and seemingly employ former Maskirovka-personnel to manage the likely less-than-happy population. Honestly, I don't think turning the locals against their current overlords should be all that difficult compared, though convincing them to then join the Republic might be harder. Though the fact that we're the ones providing the humanitarian aid bettering their lives should likely help a lot already - especially if we put some effort on emphasizing that little tidbit.
- Appian, I don't think would be that much of an issue; given it's on the other side of the Aurigans from them, I don't think the Taurians would be seriously interested in settling the system. I'd have to go back and check, but IIRC they were mostly interested in the system academically? Figure out why those many colonization-attempts failed, in order to figure out how to improve their own colonization efforts closer to home?
So, chances are they'd be happy with the scientific data they got, and being able to re-assign the funding of the Appian science station elsewhere.
- Rather "meh" on contacting ComStar, tbh. Just extremely doubtful anything useful will come from that, and figure we could better spent our time and effort elsewhere.
- Not specific to anything you brought up, but something that I considered based upon the strongly-suggested moratorium on expanding our education system to other planets for a couple of years; a program to increase opportunities for self-education amongst both our new member worlds, and possibly independent world near us. Think something like the remote-learning program you already talked about a couple of times in the thread (IIRC), but also things such as setting aside resources to set up libraries on various worlds (with both physical and digital stock, coupled with a few satellites to allow for global access on a given world), encouraging companies to develop various programs and applications for self-learning (think stuff like Duolingo, but for various other topics as well), and so on.