Kanata.EXE
Programmer
- Location
- Indonesia
[x] Plan More Spies, More Socializing, More Missiles, More Core
The Lords of Ruin -- Battletech/Killzone
- Thread starter prometheus110
- Start date
- Crossover
Forgothrax
Not Going Gently
- Pronouns
- He/Him
We have only so many actions to play with. We outnumber the defenders by a stupid amount. It isn't necessary to take every single action to deal with the MAF. If things were more equal I would, but as it is they're going to be steamrollered.
BananosMoon
Banana lover.
- Location
- Poney banana paradise.
[x] Plan More Spies, More Socializing, More Missiles, More Core
Nottheunmaker
Altman be praised
- Location
- USG Ishimura
Don't they not have copies of the Helm Core anymore?
F0lkL0re
Officially not an Inquisitor
- Location
- Shetland
You can find a list of everything we're currently using or have available in the order of battle post.
The Lords of Ruin -- Battletech/Killzone Crossover
Helghast Order of Battle: Doctrine: Super-mobile blitzkrieg doctrine based around deploying divisions via ship-based dropships and cruisers. Navy...
forums.sufficientvelocity.com
Thanks! I have that open. I am asking about "Endo-Steel"/"Endo-Composite"/"Composite" Structure.You can find a list of everything we're currently using or have available in the order of battle post.
The Lords of Ruin -- Battletech/Killzone Crossover
Helghast Order of Battle: Doctrine: Super-mobile blitzkrieg doctrine based around deploying divisions via ship-based dropships and cruisers. Navy...
F0lkL0re
Officially not an Inquisitor
- Location
- Shetland
Oh then scroll up a little to the section in the post above marked as "tech tree" and you'll find it there.
Forgothrax
Not Going Gently
- Pronouns
- He/Him
- Location
- Back in Cali
I said of all the chances to get a copy the GDL was the best shot and the most likely.
Genolution
Hello there
I disagree with this as an exclusive reason simply because the real world analogies don't actually bear it out. For example, to the Chinese military as unable to ever reach or exceed the US military technologically is reliant on an image of the Chinese military essentially permanently frozen in the year 2000, when most credible analysts of the Chinese military suggest that in many fields they produce equipment just as advanced (and in some respects, such as ground-based air defense and ballistic missiles, more so) than American equipment. That's because in the real world, that copying phase is almost inevitably going to be temporary as the emerging power catches up to the established power. It's an established pattern, that was followed by Britain prior to the industrial revolution, the United States during the gilded age, the Soviet Union during the 20s and 30s, the Japanese during the leadup to the Japanese economic boom, the Koreans as they ramped up for the "Miracle on the Han River", and the Chinese during the early 2000s, wherein they engage in aggressive copying to catch up, before their domestic creative establishment matures and their intellectual property laws tighten (as we saw happen in Britain, the USA, Japan, Korea, China, etc). I am a research scientist; over the past several years, I have seen Chinese scientific output in my field specifically catch up to and exceed American output in quality and quantity.
Thus, the idea that the Successor States are merely copying and cannot innovate themselves leads one to the question: if they are just copying, how is it that they never managed to catch up? They had a longer period of time than it took for those innovations to be originally developed from scratch, with larger population bases, on dozens to hundreds of worlds throughout the Inner Sphere largely untouched by the Succession Wars. How is it that they have scientific establishments so pathetic that Holy Shroud I could even have an effect with its small scale (remember, Holy Shroud I killed a grand total of 300 scientists, which could probably stop innovation in one field on Earth and Holy Shroud II failed). They only managed to recover and then begin iterating on said knowledge after they had the Helm Memory Core handed to them on a silver platter and even then they seem unable to catch up in terms of RND output to either the Hegemony, or to their own rates prior to the Reunification War, or to the freaking clans. I can get that they're copying to catch up, but they aren't even copying at an appreciable rate and their efforts to copy are apparenttly so pathetic that a campaign of sabotage that would struggle to make an impact on modern day Earth has halted advancement across the board spherewide. That's just researchwise, industrially they've had the time to essentially rebuild from first principles and haven't either.
Also, voting
[x] Plan More Spies, More Socializing, More Missiles, More Core
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- Location
- Greece
- Pronouns
- He
The property is a boardgame first, story world second. There was that fanfic 'Cameron's Legacy' in which Caff completely cut themselves off from the inner sphere and I think surpass the Star League tech wise by the end of it, they even solve telomeres.
- Location
- The Cosmos
I'm uncertain why we're contacting gaucin or Cassilda. Claiming the former would make the Aurigans feel a bit encircled, the later is to the far north west and is more likely to be claimed by the trinity league. I think we should swap them out with some of the planets I recommended(Ur Cruinne, Alloway, Tincalunas, Linhuaiguan, Wyeth's Glory, Kimi, or Payia).
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Forgothrax
Not Going Gently
- Pronouns
- He/Him
The latter two are uninhabited and one of them is uninhabitable without terraforming, so... what is the point?
The other two are functionally uninhabited for all intents and purposes. We wouldn't gain anything by bringing them in, really.
I'm happy to trade with them. They're too far away for us to do anything else unless we're willing to wage war. If there is some sort of rebel organization we can offer them support, I suppose. I really just want to trade technologies with them and leave them alone otherwise.
Two regiments per year sent to them is literally our entire mech production. Uh... no?
Helping them build a factory if they want one is more reasonable.
We can just build mechs for ourselves as we have been, then push out refits for all current designs that incorporate shields. Just swapping out the engine to XL or IPR should be enough to fit a shield on almost any mech.
Well, the compensating factor is that in a few years all those infantry will be running in PAL, which should make them significantly more individually capable.
Detroit is capable of hosting a mech factory with up to 1 regiment/year production. That should help out quite a bit. Fronc is as well. We won't be up to cover all 60 by the time the Clans show up but if we send, say, 30 divisions or so we probably can.
If we set up PDF forces the number of federal units we can spare will increase.
Detroit used to have a BattleMech factory but was destroyed during the Reunification War. The Capellan Confederation rebuilt it in 3060 with WoB assistance.
From Sarna:
The primary example of the Capellan Confederation's support for and benefits of the Trinity Alliance to the Magistracy of Canopus and Taurian Concordat, the Confederation rebuilt and updated a ruined BattleMech factory on Detroit, its position intended to bolster the New Colony Region.
From Sarna:
The primary example of the Capellan Confederation's support for and benefits of the Trinity Alliance to the Magistracy of Canopus and Taurian Concordat, the Confederation rebuilt and updated a ruined BattleMech factory on Detroit, its position intended to bolster the New Colony Region.
Forgothrax
Not Going Gently
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Less the number of units we can spare and more the number of units we can field with attached Battlemech regiments.
I plan to set up a militia during the peacetime turns, yes.
Aztez Fan
Self-Requested Ban
- Location
- California
So something to note about the whole succession war thing. Technology only truly regressed by the end of the Second Succession War, which was just as if not more brutal than the first if you can believe that. And also marked the date when the last known warships were destroyed. Do you know how Long ago that was? 2864, by the time we arrived, that was only 136 years ago, however such warfar stated again only 2 years later in 2866, which was the Third succession War's. So to put it bluntly, never in that span of 136 years until 3025 when a Truly lasting peace started for more the just 2-3 years, had The Great house had the chance to really rebuild as they kept blowing or stealing each other's stuff.
@Forgothrax makes it sound like the Great house had the time to rebuild but never did in over 2 centuries. When the reality is that they were having a world war every 3-4 years after the Second succession wars for over 136 years. Grinding each other down for generations after they had already blown up their Modern economies into oblivion. This would be like if Red jack ryan had successfully raided us he told his fellow pirates and the great houses where were stacked and every 3-5 turns a pirate raid or "Pirate raid" came to gank us like we are their personal piggy bank.
Do you think we could still maintain our economy if such circumstances came to pass? No, and that's the situation the Great houses got themselves into. And keep getting themselves into. Like fore crying out load a world like Hesperus II, a world highly prized for its industry, has had a battle over it every 17 years like CLOCKWORK. Imagine how it is for the rest of the sphere in general. Were BEYOND lucky.
17 years is barely enough to Truely repair and rebuild a nation torn apart by war, now try doing that for a space empire across 100s of star systems and planets, every 2-3 years as it gets broken down or stolen during another war or raid. Look at how germany, england , france, Russia and Japan looked after just 6 years of total warfare and raids. Now imagine that but with only 3-4 years of respite before another war happens again and again for 100 years straight.
You cant, because such destruction, is beyond the human ability to imagine fully.
Edit: The First succession war lasted for 35 years, while the Second lasted 34 years, between both, only 9 years of peace had existed before the blood shead that would end the Warship as a player in IS warfare and leave the Great houses broken for the next 150 years..... And they still fought a low instensy but still violent on and off war for the next 136 years untill 3025.
@Forgothrax makes it sound like the Great house had the time to rebuild but never did in over 2 centuries. When the reality is that they were having a world war every 3-4 years after the Second succession wars for over 136 years. Grinding each other down for generations after they had already blown up their Modern economies into oblivion. This would be like if Red jack ryan had successfully raided us he told his fellow pirates and the great houses where were stacked and every 3-5 turns a pirate raid or "Pirate raid" came to gank us like we are their personal piggy bank.
Do you think we could still maintain our economy if such circumstances came to pass? No, and that's the situation the Great houses got themselves into. And keep getting themselves into. Like fore crying out load a world like Hesperus II, a world highly prized for its industry, has had a battle over it every 17 years like CLOCKWORK. Imagine how it is for the rest of the sphere in general. Were BEYOND lucky.
17 years is barely enough to Truely repair and rebuild a nation torn apart by war, now try doing that for a space empire across 100s of star systems and planets, every 2-3 years as it gets broken down or stolen during another war or raid. Look at how germany, england , france, Russia and Japan looked after just 6 years of total warfare and raids. Now imagine that but with only 3-4 years of respite before another war happens again and again for 100 years straight.
You cant, because such destruction, is beyond the human ability to imagine fully.
Edit: The First succession war lasted for 35 years, while the Second lasted 34 years, between both, only 9 years of peace had existed before the blood shead that would end the Warship as a player in IS warfare and leave the Great houses broken for the next 150 years..... And they still fought a low instensy but still violent on and off war for the next 136 years untill 3025.
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Genolution
Hello there
That only works if you assume (a) the 3rd Succession War was similar in intensity to the 2nd, when it was more a slow burn of border raiding, and (b) that every world in the Inner Sphere was devastated by the Succession Wars when canonically almost every great house has dozens if not hundreds of world more or less untouched by war. The FedSuns golden worlds are, going off of current canon, not actually all that special even within the FedSuns in terms of being worlds that exited the Succession Wars untouched, yet the former Terran Hegemony worlds that have been fought over continuously are still the industrial heartlands. The next issue is, the Successor States engaged in multiple military buildups and offensive actions when their civilian economies and standards of living remained in continual decline. Of course rebuilding was impossible when the broader economy that would support such an effort is essentially left to wither on the vine in favour of continually rebuilding mech forces for offensive action and continually diverting jumpship and dropship production to support offensives and raiding. Mechs are offensive weapons first and foremost because they are specifically in universe the most efficient combat unit for a limited amount of spacelift. The problem is that each Great House is fundamentally wedded to aggressive, expansionist military action and would resort to it if at all possible. The problem is that even when they broke their military machines and each Successor State was incapable of truly threatening the core interests of their rivals, they still kept on pouring their attention into building more mechs so as to ensure they could keep on engaging in offensive action via essentially pointless raiding.
I also don't buy the idea that it was all ComStar's fault. For one, it is logically incoherent as a sequence of actions performed by people whose brains have an uninterrupted supply of oxygen. Furthermore, even after the Clan Invasion when ComStar interference was effectively out of the picture the character and actions of the Successor States did not meaningfully change. Finally, the First Succession War, the most devastating war in human history, occurred without any ComStar action at all for an incredibly pointless reason that would in fact appeal only to a class of warrior nobles obsessed with titles and prestige. At that point, the Star League was dead. The title of First Lord was meaningless. It would be akin to the Second World War being fought over whose claim to the throne of the Holy Roman Emperor was more legitimate. Yet not only did every House Lord try to lay claim to the throne of the First Lord, they continued to lay claim to it and wage war over it for several hundred years with one attempt to negotiate a settlement or acknowledge that the title of First Lord brought no benefit before the FedCom Accords (and those were really only there to set up for another total war) that was rejected out of hand.
They had the entire 3rd Succession War to reestablish a functional civilian ecomomy but what actually happened was the entire period of low-intensity pseudowarfare resulted in the Great Houses instead building up mech units so that when 3028 happened in canon and in quest they could return to high intensity warfare. Jumpship production that was enough to support the FedSun offensive, that apparently never went into colonial expansion or reestablishment of domestic supply chains when half their worlds, even untouched worlds, are effectively third world countries.
The Helm Core and New Dallas Core have terraforming and civilian industry data and technology as well. Why is it that all the Successor States instead focused on how to make fancier mech armour, bigger mech guns, and other mech accoutrements in order to take the worlds of other Successor States, when most of the Successor States had plenty of partially terraformed worlds to develop and some even had the space to expand outwards? Basic terraforming and colonization tech was Terran Alliance tech. There was the time to reinvent the jumpship and jumpship production several times over from a 80s tech base on the untouched worlds.
You know that statement about the definition of insanity being to try the same thing over and over again and hope for something different? Well, the Successor States certainly tried over and over again to make things better with more shooty mechs and it didn't really do much, did it?
The Successor States spent the Succession Wars pushing all their meagre productivity into rebuilding their capabilities, sure, but they were rebuilding their capability to smash their faces into the rebuilt capabilities of the other guy on the offensive, promptly expending that rebuilt capability in the process so the cycle started all over again.
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- Location
- USA
[x] Plan More Spies, More Socializing, More Missiles, More Core
Aztez Fan
Self-Requested Ban
- Location
- California
This, this right here. Destruction of the economy and full-throttle into the military one leads to a military industrial complex that while is extremely sturdy and will keep pumping out weapons, it also leads to it decaying if funding to diverted to civilian projects. Something that with the siege mentality the great houses has cant be allowed. Every 3-4 years they have a major conflict that goes nowhere with smaller raids soon after in the third succession wars, and the civilian economy is left to suffer as everything is diverted to only military interests. For over 130 years. That effectively leaves ones economy utterly dependent on the military, since if you stop funding the military, the greater economy will crash. But if you don't invest in the civilian economy, the nation's wealth won't grow but stagnate.
Right now unless some kind of lasting peace can be formed for say, 10 or more years, then the civilian economy of the great houses are doomed to be ignored in favor of the Military-industrial complex. Which in turn supports the interests of the Warrior Nobility.
Genolution
Hello there
The point that me and @Forgothrax are making is that that's exactly the problem. The Great Houses never actually rebuilt their civilian economies and supply chains and instead chose to plunge themselves headlong into continued raiding and offensives specifically because it was the interests of a warrior nobility class and that said warrior nobles are only interested in peace when it gives them the chance to build up forces for the next major offensive. Give them 10 years of peace to rebuild and those jumpships and dropships aren't going to reestablishing supply chains or colonizing new worlds, they're going to supplying and carrying more battlemech units for their next push into their hated neighbours. The 3rd Succession War gave them the time needed to build up the forces for the 4th Succession War, time they could have but didn't spend on their economy as a whole, because the Inner Sphere, as mentioned, are ruled by hereditary, landed, martial aristocracy who can not tolerate power growing in the hands of the proletariat or the industrial bourgeouis, who would actually gain meaningful power in that event.
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Aztez Fan
Self-Requested Ban
- Location
- California
Yeah, although i will say the Capitalists (Who even in our own world are effectively just Nobility by any other name) are sitting pretty as the middle and lower classes are left to the winds. Here are some memes that pair well to showcase the general status quo of the Inner Sphere for the past 400 years.
