Yeah but they didn't use nukes to do it, they used the power laser in the facility to damage it and destroying infrastructure is far less of a breach then breaking out the nukes. It is a sign that the Capellans are being severely pressed though, given thats its basically an open invitation for the FC to start destroying everything they or the FWL can't capture/take. I fully expect that this will happen once the war starts dying down.
The Lords of Ruin -- Battletech/Killzone
- Thread starter prometheus110
- Start date
- Crossover
Yeah but they didn't use nukes to do it, they used the power laser in the facility to damage it and destroying infrastructure is far less of a breach then breaking out the nukes. It is a sign that the Capellans are being severely pressed though, given thats its basically an open invitation for the FC to start destroying everything they or the FWL can't capture/take. I fully expect that this will happen once the war starts dying down.
Again, Captial missiles and nuclear weapons are not the same thing.
here is the list of capital missile systems
all of which are noted at being effective anti fighter despite being non-nuclear
and here is the nuclear weapons of the setting
again, the majority of these weapons are aimed at static defenses and ground targets. In fact Missile systems themselves don't seem to be focused on capital ships or dropships but fighters. the only reason i can see for this is that missiles lack range to reach capital ships and/or are to easy to intercept. Either way the cannon in BT is missiles are for knocking out fighters and other missiles, not attacking capital ships directly.
Chaos Blade
Procrastinating Writer
- Location
- Buenos Aires, Argentina
I don't get your point, I mean some of your sources contradict yourself. I mean of the four nukes mentioned in sarna, one is a tactical groundside weapon, one is an ASF weapon and the other two use Killer Whale and White Shark Launchers,\.Again, Captial missiles and nuclear weapons are not the same thing.
here is the list of capital missile systems
all of which are noted at being effective anti fighter despite being non-nuclear
and here is the nuclear weapons of the setting
again, the majority of these weapons are aimed at static defenses and ground targets. In fact Missile systems themselves don't seem to be focused on capital ships or dropships but fighters. the only reason i can see for this is that missiles lack range to reach capital ships and/or are to easy to intercept. Either way the cannon in BT is missiles are for knocking out fighters and other missiles, not attacking capital ships directly.
So, no to the " In fact Missile systems themselves don't seem to be focused on capital ships or dropships but fighters"
And I am going to ask you sources for This statement "again, the majority of these weapons are aimed at static defenses and ground targets"
Are Capital missiles a thing apart of Nukes? yes, but nukes are more powerful and efficient and if any succesor state needs a crash anti capital weapon program, they are going to go for nukes, both as fighter and possibly capital missiles as well (mostly because you can mate capital missile launchers into dropships) and with the relative fragility of DropShips vis a vis WarShips... I wouldn't be surprised if they go for nuclear variants (if not full loads, partial ones, with regular missiles being fired to overwhelm point defense)
- Location
- his hidden lair
The thing is, if you pass it off as a House Lord? WMDs are going to start coming out of storage. You could only really frame it as either Marik, Liao, or Davion given our location and all of them have better things to do than send a priceless WarShip or two our way.
I can't see anyone genuinely believing mercs or pirates had a WarShip, even if Wolf's Dragoons genuinely have some.
Rule 1: Follow the Terms of Service: Don't post links to and quotes from pirated material.
because the descriptions for the Capital missiles systems always state that they are used against fighters not Warships and of the nuclear missiles listed only two have any mention of being used in space and none mention being used against warships? Further more nukes are not the hyper efficient weapons you seem to think they are and BT Warships are more durable than you think, for one they do not here are the specified rules for the how effective nukes are in space versus capital ships. For one they have to make direct hits to do anything given that no air means no shockwaves and even then it takes are critcal hit to punch through and do structural damage
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More rules on space nukes, I timed out on editing my last post.
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Black Bessie Rides Again
- Location
- The internet
Black Bessy Rides Again
Black Bessy, as all good Taurian Citizens know, is one of the very few surviving War of Solarian Aggression* era Toro. A mascot of its unit even before the end of the war, Black Bessy fought until the very end of the war, before being knocked out of action and hidden by the unit. It was hidden until the liberation of Taurus, and placed upon a memorial pillar in the capital of the Taurian Concordat. Thus it was a great surprise to the citizens of Samantha, to wake up this morning to find Black Bessy missing. Citizens initially suspected the Capellan Confederation, and some even wondered aloud if they had been too skeptical of First Prince Morgan Davion's speech.
Fortunately, a 9 AM announcement dispelled these worries. Far from being stolen by Capellan Saboteurs, Black Bessy was undergoing restoration efforts. A joint contract by Vandenberg Mechanized Industries and Stahl Arms, would see the replacement of Black Besse's long damaged gyros as well as general restoration efforts in order to replace worn and damaged components. Once done, Black Besse would be added to the capital defenses, freeing up a more modern battlemech to head to the Capellan front. Yet that was not all. Vandenberg Mechanized Industries and Stahl arms have signed an agreement to bring the long lost Toro back into production. Each party involved gave a statement.
"It is with great pleasure that I announce that Black Bessy will be restored, and the Toro brought back into production. It is a sign of a new day for the Taurian people." Taurian Concordate Spokesmen.
"It is an honor and a privilege to be involved in the recreation of the Toros, and one hopefully to be merely the start of a renaissance of Taurian Innovation." Vandenberg Mechanized Industries
"We are quite pleased to work with our Taurian partners to revive a symbol of resistance to colonialist aggression. This process will give our engineers and staff extremely valuable experience with battlemech design. We intend to market the Talos for internal testing and export to less wealthy and second line units. We anticipate a production cost of roughly 2/3rds that of the Quasit, while being superior in most aspects." Stahl Arms
The Taurian markets surged with activity on the news. Vandenberg Mechanized Industries shares soared nearly 30% on the news and a general rally of the market followed. Several tie in merchandizing and licensing deals with smaller companies consisting from anything from custom seating for the new mech to component manufacture to even a new line of commemorative minatures from Amusement Studio's famous minatures wargame Battle Commander. Several market analysts warn that the movement is as much on enthusiasm as careful analysis, and they expect a moderate correction in the coming week as cooler heads prevail. In contrast Concordat Telecom and TransStellar suffered an utter bloodbath in market trading, falling over 20% on the news as planetary militias Concordat wide expressed interest in the reborn Talos, and in retiring or lessening use of CT&T's signature militia mech, the Quasit. Most analysts agree that only the ongoing war with the Capellan Confederation has prevented a major short term disruption in their business.
* referred to as Reunification War by Inner Sphere Sources
A/N: I've always been a fan of the Toro and Talos, and hope to see updated versions of them become a thing as the quest continues. The Quasit is arguably one of the best militia mechs around, and the plasma rifle version that'll be produced in the future is hilarious, but its still more expensive than the Talos, and arguable worse in most ways.
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Forgothrax
Not Going Gently
- Pronouns
- He/Him
First, even the Ares Convention banned nukes only on planets and in orbit basically. Nobody can complain if we follow that rule. They're considered legitimate by that treaty for things like warship strikes.
Second, we have no IC reason to suspect that C* would false flag us with nukes. Even if we did, as evidenced by the most recent interlude they're happy to false flag themselves whenever they want to, and they have nukes. They don't need to steal one.
Third, your argument that doing so will make the CapCom nuke us because they're nuts is invalid. Arguing that someone will nuke us if they're losing, or doing so while they're on the offensive because they are crazy is an argument to prevent them from being in a position to hurt us. If they're that crazy, they will use whatever they want on us whenever it's advantageous to do so because the full moon is green tonight or some other lunacy. The counter to that is to do whatever is necessary so that they can't put themselves into a situation where they have the option to hurt us, not to hobble ourselves and hope that the nutcases will be merciful in victory.
If we build our nuclear systems so that the missiles are not made for an air breathing environment and promote safety, we will be fine.
As far as effectiveness? I find it utterly hilarious that it is assumed that autocannons are perfectly useful tools against droppers but nukes aren't. One puts far more energy on the target, and it isn't the autocannon.
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The problem with nukes is that they aren't even on the drawing board right now. We'd have to get the tech (either researching it ourselves or trading for it), build up the infrastructure for manufacturing them (add a point or two of Nuclear NBC power), design new vehicles for deploying them (missiles/ASFs/ships and all that), and then build those new designs.
The alternative is to just build some Hastas (the new, "good enough" design that is broadly competitive with contemporary threats), build more Hastas, build even more Hastas, and then build yet even more Hastas. The amount of time and effort it would take to gain a pile of extra firepower through nukes could produce a very similar boost in firepower through just rolling out the improvements we've already developed - only said rollout would also increase our force's resilience and durability as well as firepower.
Sure, nukes are a decent force multiplier - but the marginal advantage of doubling down on multiplying a tiny force is worth a lot less than just bulking up numbers. Developing nukes should be in the same boat as developing energy shields and other stuff that'll be nice to but onto the next generation of tech - backburner stuff that'll be ready when the time comes to develop a third/fourth generation war machine but is significantly less urgent than actually rolling out our second generation stuff.
The alternative is to just build some Hastas (the new, "good enough" design that is broadly competitive with contemporary threats), build more Hastas, build even more Hastas, and then build yet even more Hastas. The amount of time and effort it would take to gain a pile of extra firepower through nukes could produce a very similar boost in firepower through just rolling out the improvements we've already developed - only said rollout would also increase our force's resilience and durability as well as firepower.
Sure, nukes are a decent force multiplier - but the marginal advantage of doubling down on multiplying a tiny force is worth a lot less than just bulking up numbers. Developing nukes should be in the same boat as developing energy shields and other stuff that'll be nice to but onto the next generation of tech - backburner stuff that'll be ready when the time comes to develop a third/fourth generation war machine but is significantly less urgent than actually rolling out our second generation stuff.
Forgothrax
Not Going Gently
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Had to go dig in my box of misc books sorry (just moved). I'm gonna quote the rule section for the Alamo, which is my ideal nuclear weapon for us. Note the bolded section.
The rules call out the Alamo as the ideal warship killer. This is very much at odds with your argument. Frankly, a weapon that ASF can carry and will blow up a Leopard with a few hits seems ideal.
The thing is they don't. The problem with nukes is they waste the vast majority of power because they are explosions that radiate their power in all directions where as direct fire weapons puts all of its force into the target. Per the rules nukes on deal 1% of their power in damage to a ships because they have no way of concentrating their force, and because there is no medium in space there are no shockwaves so its direct hits or nothing and because a ships radiation shielding is good enough that radiation isn't an issue damage wise .Can a Capital battery equal a nuke? depends on the nuke. can it equal the small percent of the nuclear explosion that actually does anything? Yes they can. Building off of the used example in the book on page 169 and referring to the tables on page 170 and 166 (for the names, they stop using the informal name and start using the types in damage tables)
So for this we would use 1% of an Alamo's base damage of 1000 which is 10 and destroy's the dropper if it crits because basically no dropship has anywhere close to 100 structure. thats impressive for an aerospace missile but in comparision the type 3 missile would do 100 damage with the same rules, if it hits, which isn't guaranteed and even then its gross overkill against a dropship. The benefit here isn't raw damage, its guaranteed damage on hit and crit kills at extreme range compared to conventional weapons and forcing a piloting role and causing ecm if they survive. This being said lets compare that to a standard black lion loadout versus nukes and how much more effective they as a cost analysis, because nukes are really expensive. that one alamo used in the example? The warhead alone cost 1 million C-bills and the type three costs 15 million for a ten fold increase. Needless to say other weapons are nowhere near as expensive.
crunching the numbers for the ships armament sans nukes it has a striking power of 540 for the 18 NAC/30s, 24 for the 8 White Sharks, 12 for the 6 Barracudas, and 640 for the 32 NAC/20s. Thats a total of 1216 damage for a full salvo at optimal range, though that only applies to 500 ton plus vessels for everything but the missiles because of the cap weapons rules. An alpha strike would cost 4,192, 000 (NAC/30s 1,620,000, missiles cost 652000, NAC/20 1920000) which is expensive but to equal that alpha damage of 1216 you would need 122 Alamo's for a total of 122,000,000 C-bills rounded up a missile. Even if a full half of those crit and you didn't need to use the rest thats still over 60 million C-bills, and thats for one salvo of Aerospace grade nukes which are cheap in comparison. a similar strike with Type 3s is 13 missiles for a grand total of 195,000,000 space bucks. And this is just a damage to cost comparison, the Black Lion only has the ability to fire 6 Type 3 at once and the cost of the Lions attack is primarily because of the autocannons, given that Naval PPCs and Lasers don't use ammo their cost for firing is near zero.
How old is the book? the one I am pulling from is 2016, had to pull from the web, given all my stuff is in storage as we are in the process of moving out
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VhenRa
MechWarrior
- Location
- Auckland, New Zealand
- Pronouns
- She/Her
They get special bonuses against dropships and warships that let them inflict criticals without penetrating the armor of enemy ships. Capital missiles might excel at taking out fighters.. but they are perfectly capable of damaging and laming warships. And in sufficient quantity... they can kill warships quite well on their own. Not many Warships actually carry sufficient numbers of them to do so though. Quixotes do, the old Lyran Commonwealth-class did.
Sure they can. "We aren't following the Ares Conventions". The unspoken rules of war of the 3SW pretty much shitcan all nukes. Anywhere.
That passage would also be from Interstellar Operations.How old is the book? the one I am pulling from is 2016, had to pull from the web, given all my stuff is in storage as we are in the process of moving out
BT's nuke rules have been in three books as I understand it.
One of the Jihad Hotspots series
Historical: Reunification War
Interstellar Operations.
The Type designations debuted in Reunification War, so Jihad Hotspots is out.
And the Reunification War version of the passage in the middle spells out it takes 10 bomb slots to carry.
Do they use the same 2d6 rule as nukes do? I haven't found the specific rule that collaborates with that for standard Cap missiles rather than nukes as through armor crits seems extremely powerful. the whole 10x structure damage on a 10+ 2d6 roll is where the real lethality of the Alamo and 9+ for type 3 comes from. the 10 and 100 damage is nice but warships can take stupid amount of punishment. I am still looking, though.
As for missile ships the Avalon is definitely one given that it runs 14 AR 10 launchers which is far and away more that its contemporaries.
Forgothrax
Not Going Gently
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I find the tonnge ranges hysterical, tbh. After some googling that probably has me on some watch lists (hi FBI!) The smallest nuke ever made weighs 50lb, subkiloton. A dialable 1-15kt W45 weighs 150lb. Even assuming the Alamo has severe weight limitations, it seems very odd that it's limited to 5kt. A 10,000lb munition that that can only loft 1% of it's weight in warhead seems strange. At least expand it a little so it can punch much harder. 15kt is "lol u dead" for a lot of droppers. I do wonder if Petrusite would be a better trigger for nukes, too... Save some weight, maybe make a pure fusion warhead possible. That would make things much cheaper. Would be hilarious if we started busting out megaton range ASF portable nukes that make WarShips highly unsurvivable.
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Crafter of War
The Dorf
- Location
- Bend
Here's what the QM has to say about them.
With a nuke that hulk of the ship might still be there. Irradiated Pestrusite... I think the ship will just be gone.
Welcome the wonders of FASA numbers, leave your complaints at the door.
In all seriousness its important to remember that BT is a future of the 80s setting and the people making it didn't have the internet to make things easy for research so it was less a matter of making things accurate then making thing like they wanted. and what they wanted was big ass ships in giant slugging matches, not super long range missile duels where the loser is the first sides AMS system that fails. As a result nukes are regulated kept niche roles through various limits be it political or cost:effectiveness. The reason why really didn't matter to them. If i had to make one i would argue that given the ranges in space missiles have to carry more fuel to get anyware and have to carry advanced guidence equipment to stand a chance of getting close enough to a ship to be effective but at that point just making KKVs solves the problem
This doesn't really give context to what a unit of power is on this scale considering how different each thing is. Given the shear bullshit of Irradiated petrusite though i would be very surprised if it didn't just obliterate or eject whatever it hits out of existance.
- Location
- Back in Cali
Even Bio-weapons require a lot of time to be useful. If they are noticed fast something we would be looking for anyways and would have limited use because of Belgian habit and different biology they would do little damage in the grand scheme of things and only piss us off. A chemical attack is a more effective attack for speed but would also be of little uses as our people tend to have protective measures on as a fashion statement that is fully functional.
No we can't because ComStar would never give that kind of tech out to anyone. They will hoard that tech for themselves to their dying breath and only if the tech is alright out there and will be developed soon without a way to stop it or a existential threat to Terra like the clans would they even consider it. And that would be mostly in order to profit from giving the tech and being seen as allies. It also would only happen if a secular ComStar was around which is not a thing right now and won't be unless a schism happens.
We could but it would be a waste we want them to have the techs we are offering because we want all three allies to be stronger so we can keep the IS out of our hair. We also don't have a lot of C-bills in the first place. those C-bills we have are an emergency supply of liquid assets for the BT universe. The techs are not an emergency requirement when we have more effective ways to get what we want.
They are in the list and one of the things we are offering the TC along with making a standard armor equipped Marshal for the MoC and a Roughneck for the AC. Basically, a joint mech development program that develops the experience we need and gives the allies more standard mechs instead of random ones they can find. Though it wouldn't be done by Stalh Arms or VMI but between the governments and a joint think tank like organization that would then give licenses to the companies to make the mechs.
VhenRa
MechWarrior
- Location
- Auckland, New Zealand
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Warhead is only about 20 kilos
Its mainly the missile, guidance package, etc etc.
Not really compared to the Quixote's 60ish.
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Chaos Blade
Procrastinating Writer
- Location
- Buenos Aires, Argentina
Citation needed? What C* might or might not do is difficult to state, but... if we represent a foreign influence to the IS and we start selling our Warship tech or it starts to leak to our neighbors... why would you think C* would hoard it? if anything this would be an opportunity to stir the pot, to try and escalate things so that a new 1st/2nd Succession War type scenario could happen.
Driven by Apathy
Formerly known as Brain_Caster
And why should we care?
Customs of war aren't suicide pacts. They're just customs. Something people generally conform to because they find it useful to do so.
Our strategical situation and the incentives we're faced with are fundamentally different from those of a Successor Lord, to the point were even "no blowing up jumpships" is something we should very much question when it comes to our defensive doctrine. Most of the reasons for why the Great Houses handle their wars in this manner don't actually apply to us - and we have plenty of reasons to make any invasion of our space as costly to the invader as we can. And ethically it really doesn't make a difference how precisely we blow our enemies up.
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VhenRa
MechWarrior
- Location
- Auckland, New Zealand
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Because if you do that, we become Space!North Korea and are basically treated as a pariah by everyone?
If you want to be space hermit kingdom... sure.
But expect if that happens... our new allies will probably go "We don't know them, we never knew them."
Not quite the same method. But there is three ways to get criticals in Aerospace Combat.
Well, four ways.
First is damage thresholds. Each armor facing has a threshold = to full armor value / 10, rounded up. So if you have 95 armor, that location has a threshold of 10. Any hit above 10 damage [and for weapons on dropships/warships/jumpships/spacestations, you talley together weapons in bays], risks a critical.
Any attack that hits the structural intregrity risks a crit.
Any successful to-hit roll that was a natural 12 risks a crit.
And capital missiles roll on a table each time they hit a target. Barracuda is 11+, Killer Whale 10+, White Shark 9+ and Kraken is 8+. [Sub-Capital missiles also have their own, except Pirahnas]
If you managed to get all four of those at once... you roll four times for said potential crit.
So to give an example...
A Quixote-class Frigate gets an side shot on a Union-class Dropship, it only devotes a single 4-tube White Shark bay to fire at it [it has more pressing issues] and said missiles hit, rolling an 11 which hits the aft armor.
Firstly: 4-tubes of White Shark = 12 capital or 120 standard scale damage. 120 standard scale is clearly over the threshold value of 10 of a Union's aft armor. 120 standard scale damage also clearly completely wipes out the Union's armor and goes internal. 20 excess damage becomes 10 structual damage. Dropping the Union to a lone 1 point of structure. And since its a capital missile hit, you roll for capital missile critical damage. Required is 9+ and rolls a 10. That is three potential critical hits.
You need to roll 8+ on a 2d6 for each critical... and the Quixote beats the odds and meets all three. That means it now does 3 critical hits to whatever was the critical result for an attack roll of 11. That would be the dropships engine.
3 Engine hits = Safe thrust drops by 3 = Union is now at 0 thrust. Union is now dead in space, with no rear armor and 1 point of structural intregrity.
That was just four of the Quixote's 66 capital missile tubes and it basically just swatted a Union out of existence like it was an irritant.
If you want to be space hermit kingdom... sure.
But expect if that happens... our new allies will probably go "We don't know them, we never knew them."
Not quite the same method. But there is three ways to get criticals in Aerospace Combat.
Well, four ways.
First is damage thresholds. Each armor facing has a threshold = to full armor value / 10, rounded up. So if you have 95 armor, that location has a threshold of 10. Any hit above 10 damage [and for weapons on dropships/warships/jumpships/spacestations, you talley together weapons in bays], risks a critical.
Any attack that hits the structural intregrity risks a crit.
Any successful to-hit roll that was a natural 12 risks a crit.
And capital missiles roll on a table each time they hit a target. Barracuda is 11+, Killer Whale 10+, White Shark 9+ and Kraken is 8+. [Sub-Capital missiles also have their own, except Pirahnas]
If you managed to get all four of those at once... you roll four times for said potential crit.
So to give an example...
A Quixote-class Frigate gets an side shot on a Union-class Dropship, it only devotes a single 4-tube White Shark bay to fire at it [it has more pressing issues] and said missiles hit, rolling an 11 which hits the aft armor.
Firstly: 4-tubes of White Shark = 12 capital or 120 standard scale damage. 120 standard scale is clearly over the threshold value of 10 of a Union's aft armor. 120 standard scale damage also clearly completely wipes out the Union's armor and goes internal. 20 excess damage becomes 10 structual damage. Dropping the Union to a lone 1 point of structure. And since its a capital missile hit, you roll for capital missile critical damage. Required is 9+ and rolls a 10. That is three potential critical hits.
You need to roll 8+ on a 2d6 for each critical... and the Quixote beats the odds and meets all three. That means it now does 3 critical hits to whatever was the critical result for an attack roll of 11. That would be the dropships engine.
3 Engine hits = Safe thrust drops by 3 = Union is now at 0 thrust. Union is now dead in space, with no rear armor and 1 point of structural intregrity.
That was just four of the Quixote's 66 capital missile tubes and it basically just swatted a Union out of existence like it was an irritant.
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Driven by Apathy
Formerly known as Brain_Caster
Note that North Korea, unlike Iraq, remains very much uninvaded today. Note that the latter was invaded for "having WMDs" whereas the former actually has WMDs. Now try to guess why it was not invaded in spite of being far more problematic than Iraq and constantly making a nuisance of itself. It's fairly obvious, isn't it?
Furthermore, North Korea is a rather small country on a small peninsula on a single continent on a single planet, meaning they need trade to maintain a high level of technological development. And its political and societal system is hilariously broken and dysfunctional, making things much worse for them. Neither of those factors applies to the Helghan Republic - isolationism would have been an entirely valid path for us, and quite possibly safer than our current one.
So that comparison of yours is highly misleading at best.
All that being said, it's true that we have elected not to become isolationist. And our relationship to our fellow Periphery powers is indeed the one incentive we have to somewhat play by the rules. However, in many ways they're in a fairly similar situation to ourselves: A lot of the reasons why the Great Houses remain in abeyance with the rules of war that have emerged during the 3rd Succession War don't apply to the Taurians, Canopians and Aurigans either.
In the end it comes really down to this:
- The Great Houses don't blow up each other's jumpships, because doing so would mean the other side would blow up their jumpships, and that's an existential threat to them. We have no jumpships to be blown up.
- The Great Houses don't make widespread use of nuclear warfare because doing so would mean the other side would do so as well, making the war incredibly costly for both sides - and they're all close enough in strength to each other to prefer taking their chances fighting conventionally - but the Periphery powers aren't, and would surely be crushed in conventional warfare.(*)
Simply put, we - and our allies as well - are in a situation where it's much safer for us to be feared than to be thought easy targets. And in many ways being sufficiently feared is precisely what's allowed the Periphery nations to keep their independence for these last few centuries. They're no match for the Great Houses, but they're nevertheless too dangerous to pick a fight with unless there's a very, very good reason. The Taurian and Canopian nuclear arsenals are most certainly a factor there. (**)
(*) (Incidentally, if the Capellans get desperate enough I have no doubt we'll see mushroom clouds rising.)
(**) (It should be noted that this strategic calculus goes straight out the window if the Periphery starts invading the Inner Sphere, which is why we really ought to stop encouraging the Taurians. Frankly, I was never a fan of that, for much the same reason why I didn't favor sending "mercenaries" to participate in the fighting.)
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