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The Long Night Part One: Embers in the Dusk: A Planetary Governor Quest (43k) Complete Sequel Up
- Thread starter Durin
- Start date
Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
- Location
- Dancing on wires!
Do we even want too?
I mean in this case the Talons ain't ultramarine levels of purity.
I suppose its more gene seed...
Though it would be awesome if he could fix the Lamenters...
If (emphasis on if) we can get more pure geneseed hell yes we want to. The Talons are Ultramarine stock too IIRC.
Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
- Location
- Dancing on wires!
Yeah, but probably a few times removed from them.
The Guard are like a second founding chapter in terms of closeness.
That's got weight to it.
- Location
- Alice Springs, Australia
possibly, but only possibly and why would he need to
It's a shot in the dark but I was thinking, assuming we win this we could harvest the gene seed from the dead Emperor's Talons and have Saint Lin purify what we can to boost the Guard's recruitment rate or found another chapter of Guilliman's sons.
- Location
- Australia
Space Marines, Primarchs, and Living Saints are worshipped because they are seen as extensions of the Emperor. In terms of pure pragmatic objective utility, purifying gene seed may not be very optimal, but in terms of faith and religion this is definitely the kind of thing Saint Lin should be interested in doing for its own sake.
Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
- Location
- Dancing on wires!
I think in this case Azgrin is wondering if Lin could purify the gene seed of the Talons if we get our mitts on any of it.
Why...I dunno depends on how gene seed works, either give it to the Guard or have it as a separate gene line for reasons.
Wonder if Lin could work his magic on Lamenter geneseed to fix it I guess...probably not.
- Location
- Alice Springs, Australia
gene seed is not the limit on how fast you are training marines, training them is
and creating a chapter from a gene line that has already fallen to chaos is not the best idea, I should note that redemption is not really a thing in the Imperial Creed, or 40k as a whole to a great extent.
I can't think of any examples of someone coming back from falling to Chaos
Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
- Location
- Dancing on wires!
There was that wolf who betrayed Magnus when he tried for battle of the fang MK2
Anyhow I'm pretty sure there is somewhere...gimme a sec.
- Location
- Australia
@Durin, is Granalf good enough to make the 40k equivalent of Runefangs?
Horus. After the Emperor blasted the Chaos Gods out of him, he saw the errors of his ways and begged the Emperor to destroy him before the Chaos Gods could possess him again.
Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
- Location
- Dancing on wires!
Yeah, but he was possessed.
And before that had the Anathema stabbed into him...
- Location
- Australia
Regardless of context, he was still someone who fell to Chaos and then came out of it.
They're all of Grand Papa Smurfs blood, getting our mitts on a few hundred gene seed of his line (as long as Lin cleanses and okays it) is useful.
I don't mean to argue with you but having more gene seed is still useful, if only in the case that the Guard suffers massive losses and are unable to retrieve the gene seed of the fallen. And for when they get enough trainers to ramp up recruitment.
If Lin says it's possible (and you give us the action) I'd like to try purifying them.
Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
- Location
- Dancing on wires!
@Durin
Yeah no real examples of people who flat out fell to chaos and then were redeemed after wards.
Like there are examples of renegades returning
Ardaric Vaanes - Warhammer 40k - Lexicanum
But the only heretics returning are potentially black shields
Deathwatch Black Shield - Warhammer 40k - Lexicanum
I mean I've had redemption happen to people in Dark Heresy sessions, but well that's DH rules be malleable.
Though as it stands I can't find any one who ever returned from having really fallen sooooooo.
I mean there's been implications....whoooo that the battle with horus didn't go down like we thought it did, but if they pull a EMPS IS REALLY HORUS I will be so ****ing pissed.
Yeah no real examples of people who flat out fell to chaos and then were redeemed after wards.
Like there are examples of renegades returning
Ardaric Vaanes - Warhammer 40k - Lexicanum
But the only heretics returning are potentially black shields
Deathwatch Black Shield - Warhammer 40k - Lexicanum
I mean I've had redemption happen to people in Dark Heresy sessions, but well that's DH rules be malleable.
We think...and hope.
Though as it stands I can't find any one who ever returned from having really fallen sooooooo.
I mean there's been implications....whoooo that the battle with horus didn't go down like we thought it did, but if they pull a EMPS IS REALLY HORUS I will be so ****ing pissed.
- Location
- Alice Springs, Australia
with the right materials and a good roll, yes
on the geneseed debate it would take over a year for Saint Lin to purify 1 gene seed, while the Guard is using hundreds per year so any addition to the stores would be at the second or third decimal place (ie at the level which I sometimes simplify out of existence)
the IC reasons may exist but are debatable, as it could also argued that you are turning the spawn of traitors into angels. The Vargarain Guard are definitely against doing anything with traitors gene seed other then destroying it. The Only Reward for Treachery is Death.
Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
- Location
- Dancing on wires!
Though that is a question.
@Durin
1. As the Last Saint of the Emperor does Lin have any interactions with uncorrupted geneseed that we (or he) have noticed?
I'll also note that there is one instance of someone "falling" even reciving a mark of favour from a chaos god, but remaining pure.
But, that guy was a grey knight.
2. Actually do Grey Knights have the same resistance against the Abomination that they do the other 4 chaos Gods?
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- Location
- Alice Springs, Australia
Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
- Location
- Dancing on wires!
Ah well.
Frankly I say kill the Talons throw the gene seed too Avernus, see if it can do anything useful with it.
@Durin
1. How much of the Legio Crucis do we think is in the current group of transports.
- Location
- Australia
Couldn't that be countered with a "sins of the father" argument?
Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
- Location
- Dancing on wires!
Some how I don't think that argument will fly.
An Emperor's child would still be reviled for the sins of Fulgrim even if they were created from the gene seed stored on terra pre heresy.
Common Ground
- Location
- Berkeley
Common Ground
Like most of the Avernus Naval Command whose ships were ill-suited to harassment, Captain Collins was spending the majority of his time not engaging in the inevitable last-minute preparations leading up to a fleet action glued to the holographic display showing the effects of their ongoing harassment campaign. While he lacked the seniority and rank needed to participate in the planning process or access the plans for other elements of the fleet, he felt fortunate to be highly enough placed that he could observe the real-time feeds alongside the rest of High Command. Trading observations and insight to apply lessons learned to the current conflict was a highly successful practice of the Avernite army that had been gleefully embraced by their naval counterparts.
Said harassment campaign did not seem to be going particularly well in Collins' mind, although he would be the first to admit his own specialty lay more in heavy combat than harassment. Time after time the harassers made probing attacks towards the valuable and vulnerable troop transports, and time after time the Abomination fleet's screening elements managed to intercept them early enough to buy time for reinforcements to arrive to protect the fleeing transports. To him, it looked like any damage they managed to inflict to the transport fleet would be incidental at best unless the declining numbers of their screen really started to tell.
With a grimace he shook his head and turned away—he still had a few preparations to make, after all, and it was looking like it would be needed—when he all but ran into Admiral Sarnow. Internally cursing his lack of attention, as it was Not Done for a mere Captain to block an Admiral, he reflexively apologized and turned to go.
With a shake of his head and a wave of his hand, Sarnow indicated that it was no problem. Surprisingly, too, he started a conversation.
"Keeping up on the harassment campaign, are you? I'm taking a bit of a breather myself, I've been directly supervising for the last eight hours or so and decided I needed to take a bit of a break to stay sharp."
Nodding respectfully, Collins answered. "Yes, Admiral Sarnow, though I'm afraid my own field of expertise gives me little insight on it outside of the broadest strokes." One did not decline even an implicit offer of conversation from the leader of the Avernite Navy without a damned good reason, nor did one even imply that it might be going poorly without being damn certain that it was.
Unfortunately, Admiral Sarnow had a damn near supernatural talent for ferreting out your opinion on it. Raising an eyebrow, Sarnow dashed his vague hope that his opinion had gone unnoticed, "Oh, you think it's going poorly? Care to elaborate? I'm rather happy with how it's going myself, but I'd be the first to admit that you can't catch everything."
"Ah, it's nothing. I didn't have access to the planning material for the harassment portion of the engagement, nor is harassment or counter-harassment anything resembling my specialization, so I have no real basis to compare this to, it's just that we seem to have had zero luck in actually doing real damage to the transport fleet—their screening techniques seem to be too effective."
"Ah," replied Sarnow with a hint of a smile, "I see my bluff was quite good, if even my own men are believing it. Would it surprise you to hear that I have no interest in destroying their transport fleet at the moment?"
Taking his unspoken reply for assent, Sarnow continued. "It's true, you see. Not that I wouldn't destroy them if I had the opportunity to do so unmolested—that would be stupid, after all. Their transport capacity matters greatly if they're going to have any hope of successfully inflicting lasting damage on the ground."
"However, there's no real need to destroy them with the first real load of troops. They've only got about eight billion of them after all, and while it does feel odd to say this a 'mere' eight billion men and women will never be enough to achieve their goals on the ground."
"That doesn't mean they can be anything except fanatic in defending the transports. They need every man they can get, and every transport destroyed reduces the rate at which they can ferry troops over. Plus, it is 'traditional' for the harassers to try to strike at the transports, and for the defenders to try to protect them, and we all know how our enemy feels about tradition."
Adopting a bit of a lecturing pose, Sarnow went on. "The best of deceptions present your opponent a truth that is both plausible and that they want to believe. Right now in their High Command's mind we're doing exactly what they expect us to do and their countermeasures are succeeding, albeit only by the skin of their teeth. They think they know our goals and methods, and they're too busy countering those perceived goals and methods to waste time really examining the bigger picture."
Indicating at the display in front of them, Sarnow highlighted a harassment group. "Look here. This group was 'accidentally' detected back here by one of the screening picket squadrons on a vector that would get them into the middle of the transports well before they could be taken down. The 'heroic' sacrifice of the picket squadron—at negligible damage to our own group, I might add—bought enough time for the transports to pull back from the intercept vector and move a few more squads of their screen into position to delay our group, as well as put together a strike force from their main fleet to destroy them before they could catch up with the transport fleet's adjusted vector. Now that they've annihilated the squads shifted to delay them they're pulling back from the strike force—which, incidentally, if it tries to follow them will get a nasty surprise from these three groups. Net effect? Several enemy screening squadrons destroyed, transport fleet delayed and slightly rerouted, some of the faster mobile elements of the main fleet pulled out of position and possibly destroyed if they don't wise up and keep chasing all at negligible damage to our own forces."
"More, by depleting their screening elements and pulling pieces of their fleet out of position the enemy fleet needs to split its screen up into smaller chunks in order to maintain coverage, which allows for even more lopsided exchanges in our interceptions and creates other targets of opportunity. The goal of this harassment campaign isn't to destroy transports—it's to destroy their ability to protect their transports going forward and reduce their naval fighting power when the time comes to make a stand in the Avernus orbitals."
"A great military mind, whose name has been lost in ages past, once said the following: 'I love fighting against someone who is willing to die for their cause—it means that you and them have the same goal in mind.' These idiots are more than willing to die at abysmal exchange rates to protect their precious transports, and it would be a real pity not to oblige them."
It was with somewhat higher spirits (and significantly higher respect for Admiral Sarnow's cunning) Captain Collins went back to his ship. He had never doubted that the battle was in good hands, but it was also nice to know it was going well. Still, he had his own tasks to oversee before the coming fight, and his time right now was better spent ensuring he was ready to play his part than idly spectating others in the hope of gaining further insight.
Like most of the Avernus Naval Command whose ships were ill-suited to harassment, Captain Collins was spending the majority of his time not engaging in the inevitable last-minute preparations leading up to a fleet action glued to the holographic display showing the effects of their ongoing harassment campaign. While he lacked the seniority and rank needed to participate in the planning process or access the plans for other elements of the fleet, he felt fortunate to be highly enough placed that he could observe the real-time feeds alongside the rest of High Command. Trading observations and insight to apply lessons learned to the current conflict was a highly successful practice of the Avernite army that had been gleefully embraced by their naval counterparts.
Said harassment campaign did not seem to be going particularly well in Collins' mind, although he would be the first to admit his own specialty lay more in heavy combat than harassment. Time after time the harassers made probing attacks towards the valuable and vulnerable troop transports, and time after time the Abomination fleet's screening elements managed to intercept them early enough to buy time for reinforcements to arrive to protect the fleeing transports. To him, it looked like any damage they managed to inflict to the transport fleet would be incidental at best unless the declining numbers of their screen really started to tell.
With a grimace he shook his head and turned away—he still had a few preparations to make, after all, and it was looking like it would be needed—when he all but ran into Admiral Sarnow. Internally cursing his lack of attention, as it was Not Done for a mere Captain to block an Admiral, he reflexively apologized and turned to go.
With a shake of his head and a wave of his hand, Sarnow indicated that it was no problem. Surprisingly, too, he started a conversation.
"Keeping up on the harassment campaign, are you? I'm taking a bit of a breather myself, I've been directly supervising for the last eight hours or so and decided I needed to take a bit of a break to stay sharp."
Nodding respectfully, Collins answered. "Yes, Admiral Sarnow, though I'm afraid my own field of expertise gives me little insight on it outside of the broadest strokes." One did not decline even an implicit offer of conversation from the leader of the Avernite Navy without a damned good reason, nor did one even imply that it might be going poorly without being damn certain that it was.
Unfortunately, Admiral Sarnow had a damn near supernatural talent for ferreting out your opinion on it. Raising an eyebrow, Sarnow dashed his vague hope that his opinion had gone unnoticed, "Oh, you think it's going poorly? Care to elaborate? I'm rather happy with how it's going myself, but I'd be the first to admit that you can't catch everything."
"Ah, it's nothing. I didn't have access to the planning material for the harassment portion of the engagement, nor is harassment or counter-harassment anything resembling my specialization, so I have no real basis to compare this to, it's just that we seem to have had zero luck in actually doing real damage to the transport fleet—their screening techniques seem to be too effective."
"Ah," replied Sarnow with a hint of a smile, "I see my bluff was quite good, if even my own men are believing it. Would it surprise you to hear that I have no interest in destroying their transport fleet at the moment?"
Taking his unspoken reply for assent, Sarnow continued. "It's true, you see. Not that I wouldn't destroy them if I had the opportunity to do so unmolested—that would be stupid, after all. Their transport capacity matters greatly if they're going to have any hope of successfully inflicting lasting damage on the ground."
"However, there's no real need to destroy them with the first real load of troops. They've only got about eight billion of them after all, and while it does feel odd to say this a 'mere' eight billion men and women will never be enough to achieve their goals on the ground."
"That doesn't mean they can be anything except fanatic in defending the transports. They need every man they can get, and every transport destroyed reduces the rate at which they can ferry troops over. Plus, it is 'traditional' for the harassers to try to strike at the transports, and for the defenders to try to protect them, and we all know how our enemy feels about tradition."
Adopting a bit of a lecturing pose, Sarnow went on. "The best of deceptions present your opponent a truth that is both plausible and that they want to believe. Right now in their High Command's mind we're doing exactly what they expect us to do and their countermeasures are succeeding, albeit only by the skin of their teeth. They think they know our goals and methods, and they're too busy countering those perceived goals and methods to waste time really examining the bigger picture."
Indicating at the display in front of them, Sarnow highlighted a harassment group. "Look here. This group was 'accidentally' detected back here by one of the screening picket squadrons on a vector that would get them into the middle of the transports well before they could be taken down. The 'heroic' sacrifice of the picket squadron—at negligible damage to our own group, I might add—bought enough time for the transports to pull back from the intercept vector and move a few more squads of their screen into position to delay our group, as well as put together a strike force from their main fleet to destroy them before they could catch up with the transport fleet's adjusted vector. Now that they've annihilated the squads shifted to delay them they're pulling back from the strike force—which, incidentally, if it tries to follow them will get a nasty surprise from these three groups. Net effect? Several enemy screening squadrons destroyed, transport fleet delayed and slightly rerouted, some of the faster mobile elements of the main fleet pulled out of position and possibly destroyed if they don't wise up and keep chasing all at negligible damage to our own forces."
"More, by depleting their screening elements and pulling pieces of their fleet out of position the enemy fleet needs to split its screen up into smaller chunks in order to maintain coverage, which allows for even more lopsided exchanges in our interceptions and creates other targets of opportunity. The goal of this harassment campaign isn't to destroy transports—it's to destroy their ability to protect their transports going forward and reduce their naval fighting power when the time comes to make a stand in the Avernus orbitals."
"A great military mind, whose name has been lost in ages past, once said the following: 'I love fighting against someone who is willing to die for their cause—it means that you and them have the same goal in mind.' These idiots are more than willing to die at abysmal exchange rates to protect their precious transports, and it would be a real pity not to oblige them."
It was with somewhat higher spirits (and significantly higher respect for Admiral Sarnow's cunning) Captain Collins went back to his ship. He had never doubted that the battle was in good hands, but it was also nice to know it was going well. Still, he had his own tasks to oversee before the coming fight, and his time right now was better spent ensuring he was ready to play his part than idly spectating others in the hope of gaining further insight.
