Remove ads

The Long Night Part One: Embers in the Dusk: A Planetary Governor Quest (43k) Complete Sequel Up

Investigate the Sea?

  • Yes

    Votes: 593 80.4%

  • No

    Votes: 145 19.6%
  • Total voters
    738
Reader mode
I must say I'm more than a little bit curious about what exactly is likely to trigger a 'no hope' MAD attempt by the Crusade fleet.

Although we aren't currently planning on attacking the transports, if we do end up managing to destroy enough of them that large scale troop movement becomes impossible for them they'd certainly have no real chance with anything approaching a conventional siege. They absolutely need huge amounts of numbers to be able to exploit any openings their elites could open up—our population of something like 25 billion, the majority of whom are members of the militia, aren't going to be losing to significantly inferior numbers with a defensive advantage.

Hell, the combination of finding out just how well fortified our cities are and us revealing our information advantage might be enough to push them into the light tier of desperation plays. Conventional assault, even with 'overwhelming' numbers has fared very poorly against us so far, and that was before the latest round of upgrades.

Then again, they don't need a military victory to call this a win. While they'd certainly love to kill us all and raze our cities, they'd still view it as a victory if the only casualty they inflicted in the entire campaign was Saint Lin.

The possibility of getting an opportunity to do a deep strike against Lin might end up keeping them from using the real desperation plays until long past the point of any military victory being feasible. Hell, given what we know about potential desperation plays we might want to focus the majority of our 'special' resources on working to eliminate the most damaging/dangerous of those plays right from the start rather than working to improve our more conventional military advantage.

I just wish I could believe that we might manage a whole defensive campaign without having some son of a bitch smash space ships into our cities. It's cheating is what it is.
 
Have we thought about broadcasting Saint Lin's sermons out to the enemy fleet? One of two things will happen if we do:
1. The enemy is provoked, making it easier for us to kill them.
2. The enemy is provoked but ordered not to take the bait. The one who gave the order looks impious amongst his peers and superiors. If the head of the Crusade fleet is the one to give the order, it will not be as easy for him to get or use daemonic assistance.
 
I really do think we should wreck their fleet now, and push on the bonii on it. Bonuses are more effective in the start of the battle. Sure, they can change their plan, but that's not going to change the fact that thousands and thousands of their frigates are so much wrecks in space.

It's quite plausible they might stick with their plan anyway, and even if they don't, they'll be eating a martial penalty for having to wing it on the fly.

The question I have is.. if you do not wish to blatant abuse Ridcully's info now, where do you intend to exercise it? And, wherever you do exercise it, is that bonus, later in the war, more important than a bonus, earlier in the war?

Snowball effects are a very real thing in wars.
 
Last edited:
Shard said:
I really do think we should wreck their fleet now, and push on the bonii on it. Bonuses are more effective in the start of the battle. Sure, they can change their plan, but that's not going to change the fact that thousands and thousands of their frigates are so much wrecks in space.

It's quite plausible they might stick with their plan anyway, and even if they don't, they'll be eating a martial penalty for having to wing it on the fly.

The question I have is.. if you do not wish to blatant abuse Ridcully's info now, where do you intend to exercise it? And, wherever you do exercise it, is that bonus, later in the war, more important than a bonus, earlier in the war?

Snowball effects are a very real thing in wars.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The same bonus is more effective at the start of the battle, but the harassment phase doesn't involve the majority of our combat power.

We aren't going to be using the armored core of our fleet, nor are the defense stations going to be in play and we won't have the (admittedly tiny) minefield to play with. I'd estimate that means that more than three quarters of the naval forces that would be involved in the fight over Avernus aren't going to be benefiting from the higher bonus of blatant usage.

Also, the penalty for them ad-libing plus our own bonus from still being able to suss our the plans is almost certainly significantly less than the bonus from blatant use of their current plans—otherwise it would be a plausible alternative to simply send them a copy of their plans in the clear as soon as they showed up and say something along the lines of 'neener neener, we have your plans dumbasses'.
 
Last edited:
The battle barges are full on daemon ships. It will take a lot of work just turn the wrecks into usable scrap metal. There might be cleansable components we can salvage from the lesser vessels. The hulls wouldn't meet our current naval specifications anyway. At least they'll be using Imperium spec alloys which means there's more value than there is in the random shit the Orks build ships out of.

The mass conveyors and pressed civilian ships will be worth repairing if they can be cleansed.

Mar Sara gets more tonnage and will be exporting metal for a century but the crusade fleet is probably worth more.
 
Reynal said:
we might want to focus the majority of our 'special' resources on working to eliminate the most damaging/dangerous of those plays right from the start rather than working to improve our more conventional military advantage.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
That's what I've been saying.
Andres110 said:
Have we thought about broadcasting Saint Lin's sermons out to the enemy fleet? One of two things will happen if we do:
1. The enemy is provoked, making it easier for us to kill them.
2. The enemy is provoked but ordered not to take the bait. The one who gave the order looks impious amongst his peers and superiors. If the head of the Crusade fleet is the one to give the order, it will not be as easy for him to get or use daemonic assistance.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
3. The enemy turns off the telly.
Shard said:
where do you intend to exercise it?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Against the battleships, in the next harassment phase, unless a better opportunity pops up in the meantime - which I doubt. As explained earlier, the harassment bonus should remain the same for that round of harassment as if we went Blatant now, possibly higher depending on the enemy's response to Plan Wreck.
Although it certainly would leave more enemy escorts for harassment after that, without the surprise prediction bonus.
Shard said:
Snowball effects are a very real thing in wars.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I worry the enemy might realise this too. Although the enemy commander is arrogant.
Reynal said:
We aren't going to be using the armored core of our fleet, nor are the defense stations going to be in play and we won't have the (admittedly tiny) minefield to play with. I'd estimate that means that more than three quarters of the naval forces that would be involved in the fight over Avernus aren't going to be benefiting from the higher bonus of blatant usage.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
This is a good point at which to go blatant, too (shows how much my doubt is worth). Ambushing the enemy as they engage one of our void hard-points. Should destroy quite a few escorts, too. What do you think, @Shard?
 
Last edited:
Reynal said:
Actually, we do have the free admech slot open. While it is practically heresy to use it on a Biologis action the time-sensitive nature of it (plus limited duration and high possible rewards) might convince people.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Well, I suppose we do sort of have to slow down on expanding EM production, simply because our economy can't seem to catch up. Well, maybe not, depends on which is quicker to ramp up; thrones or EM production. We'll take that discussion then.
But speaking of Mechanicus stuff...
@Durin
Has Svartalfheim delivered any of the 20 suits of Terminator armor we ordered ten years ago? Of particular interest is the one for Lin.
It sounded like they'd finish one every year.
Durin said:
These will be finished over the next two decades
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
 
Last edited:
AlsoSprachOdin said:
Well, I suppose we do sort of have to slow down on expanding EM production, simply because our economy can't seem to catch up. Well, maybe not, depends on which is quicker to ramp up; thrones or EM production. We'll take that discussion then.
But speaking of Mechanicus stuff...
@Durin
Has Svartalfheim delivered any of the 20 suits of Terminator armor we ordered ten years ago? Of particular interest is the one for Lin.
It sounded like they'd finish one every year.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
yes all of them
 
Durin said:
yes all of them
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Well that's a nice force multiplier.

@Durin
1. Vote closed?
2. On the abomination space weapons front you said their stuff was about 80% as powerful as ours except in the range department. Is this universal for all abomination fleets or is it something that is applied to the crusade fleet due to it being in high favour?
3. Out of curiosity are any of the first circle angels characters we'd know from the Imperium?
4. Do Grey Knights retain their absolute chaos invulnerability against the abomination?
 
Doomed Wombat said:
Well that's a nice force multiplier.

@Durin
1. Vote closed?
2. On the abomination space weapons front you said their stuff was about 80% as powerful as ours except in the range department. Is this universal for all abomination fleets or is it something that is applied to the crusade fleet due to it being in high favour?
3. Out of curiosity are any of the first circle angels characters we'd know from the Imperium?
4. Do Grey Knights retain their absolute chaos invulnerability against the abomination?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
1. yes
2. a mix of the two
3. sort of
4. no
 
Reynal said:
Has the vote been called then?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Yes.
Adhoc vote count started by Shard on Dec 10, 2017 at 6:02 AM, finished with 301 posts and 41 votes.
  • [X] Plan Subtle Ambush
    -[X] Medium- use everything but your armored warships to inflict as much damage as possible via ambushes and harassment tactics, be willing to accept some major clashes- This will inflict a significant amount of damage and not need Admiral Sarnow to be too blatant about using the information that Ridcully is providing him.
    -[X] Primary: Light Forces- The Light forces will be those that are trying to seek out your ambushes, and so will be the easiest targets. - Attacking the Light forces will be the easiest option and will reduce the Abomination Fleets ablity to deal with future harassment.
    -[X] Secondary: Targets of Opportunity - Try to cause as much damage as possible to the Abomination's overall navy, at the best possible casualty ratios.
    -[X] Make subtle of the information that Ridcully has gained form the enemies plans- Medium bonus and small chance of them realising you have the plans.
    [X] Plan Wreck the Fleet
    -[X] Medium- use everything but your armored warships to inflict as much damage as possible via ambushes and harassment tactics, be willing to accept some major clashes- This will inflict a significant amount of damage and not need Admiral Sarnow to be too blatant about using the information that Ridcully is providing him.
    -[X] Primary: Light Forces- The Light forces will be those that are trying to seek out your ambushes, and so will be the easiest targets. - Attacking the Light forces will be the easiest option and will reduce the Abomination Fleets ablity to deal with future harassment.
    -[X] Secondary: Targets of Opportunity - Try to cause as much damage as possible to the Abomination's overall navy, at the best possible casualty ratios.
    -[X] Make blatant of the information that Ridcully has gained form the enemies plans- Massive bonus and certain chance of them realising you have the plans.
    [X] Plan: Priorities
    [X] Plan Subtle Ambush
    -[X] Medium- use everything but your armored warships to inflict as much damage as possible via ambushes and harassment tactics, be willing to accept some major clashes- This will inflict a significant amount of damage and not need Admiral Sarnow to be too blatant about using the information that Ridcully is providing him.
    -[X] Light Forces- The Light forces will be those that are trying to seek out your ambushes, and so will be the easiest targets. - Attacking the Light forces will be the easiest option and will reduce the Abomination Fleets ablity to deal with future harassment.
    -[X] Make subtle of the information that Ridcully has gained form the enemies plans- Medium bonus and small chance of them realising you have the plans.
Click to expand...
 
Remove ads
Harassment Analysis
  • Sidestory
    • Harassment Analysis

    The target of the initial ambushes was not the Transports, where the armies were held, not the Mass Conveyors, where the elites and more important troops were likely place, nor even the Core, the primary strength of the fleet that was making it's way to Avernus.

    It was.. the lighter vessels of the fleet, whose task was to... find and.... foil the ambushes.

    Scarcely believable at first glance, a closer look explained the reasoning behind that decision.

    /

    The Abomination plans, of course, had made significant assumptions - That Avernus, seeing the Crusade coming, would try and blunt the blow by destroying those ships carrying the people to actually enact the murder of Saint Lin. Naturally, they assigned their heavy ships to the defense of this critical elements, leaving their frigates spread out.

    Admiral Sarnow and Governor Rotbart, though, had seen the folly of targeting the point most heavily guarded and defended by the enemy. They were not fools to attack where their enemy was strongest and most secure, nor so desperate that such an act might be considered anyway (Perhaps, if they had been so utterly outnumbered that they'd have inflicted negligble damage on their fleet in a straight fight - But that wasn't the case here).

    Sensibly, then, they opted to strike at where the fleet was weakest and most vulnerable.

    The light, scouting, probing elements.

    /

    What traits does a military force need from it's people to be truly effective?

    Well, the answer is, as always, 'It depends'. Discipline, to follow orders. Loyalty, an absolute must. Skill, talent, initiative, alertness, intelligence.. many suitable to different degrees. What use a genius as cannon fodder, a rigid man as a scout, or the naive as a general? One assigns the talents to where those talents lay in.

    In the case of Chaos polities, though, strategies become skewed for their very nature. Khornates had no care for subtlety, Abomites and Nurglites lacked initiative, and Tzentchians had far too much of both.

    Light forces require, specifically, the courage to dare the unknown, the initiative to exploit what vulnerabilities to be found, and of course the ability to withdraw from poor odds. Commanding light units is a difficult prospect even at the best of times - In the ideal, much is relegated to the individual, independent captains. Their best judgement determines much, and their skill is paramount in the determination of success or failure.

    Abomites, frankly, lacked traits for any good captains of such forces to arise. A lack of initiative was bad enough, but a devotion to The Plan made long in advance was crippling when operating in a theater of war where unknowns and uncertainties dominated. Those with such traits tended not to become Abomites (or died, or lost those traits), all in all.

    Avernites, in contrast, had an abundance of them. Decades and centuries of living on a deathworld demands initiative to handle the unexpected - To the point where it has become routine. An army with extraordinary independence allotted down to individual leaders and their subordinates - The void may not beb their home, but it was their natural battlefield.

    /

    Combined, the outcome of the harassment upon the light elements went about as well as anyone could expect.

    Beautifully.

    /

    Led by the Admiral Sarnow, an Admiral practically hand-made for exactly this sort of war, and with the benefit of a Seer of near-Transcendent skill, their methods were many.

    At the most basic was attacks from blindspots, out of sensor range. Asteroids, comets.. the wrecks of broken ships all served as cover to anyone skilled in their use, and Sarnow had long gone beyond that. To him, even things such as empty space, weapons fire, and distractions were all perfectly usable as cover.

    He understood stealth better as a matter of not having attention upon you, and thus that you could hide a ship in plain sight, with nothing to shroud it. Because, even a planet might as well be invisible to the harshest of sensors if no one noticed it.

    Elsewhere, the small gambits played out in his favor. Ordered to seek ambushes they were, and so the Abomites were easily herded with the promises of ambushes. A signal sent, handcrafted mistake, small enough to be seen and not too big to be obvious. Having established the facade, impossibly big errors were ignored.. and through them, entire squadrons fit through the holes.

    Larger ones were built on the backs of smaller ones. Feigned attacks on precious transports drew away defenders from elsewhere, drew away attention from elsewhere. After they long failed to materialized and they learned not to answer, the false attacks became real ones.

    Millions burned in space, never to reach their destination.
     
  • Sidestory
    • In my mind, harassment is like a war, except your resources aren't soldiers and ships (well, they help). Your resources are time, attention and positioning. Initiative and independence (along with Skill) is key, because you have the time and attention of numerous captains of numerous ships, as opposed to only the leader of squadrons or those higher up. Just like that, even a vastly smaller fleet that the Avernites have already have a dramatically massive advantage in terms of resources compared to the Abomination.

    In fact, lesser, highly advanced ships (and thus superior) are much more preferable than more, less advanced ships, even if those extra ships would nuke the more-advanced ship in a straight fight. This is because of resource 3, positioning. It's wayyyy easier to position your ships when you have less ships, when those ships are faster, and also when those ships are stealthier, have more firepower, survivability, etc, etc. Again, technological edge: Avernite advantage.

    So while massively outnumbered... actually, being massively outnumbered and outgunned is where people resort to harassment magic. Harassment basically negates the impact of 'I HAVE MORE DAKKA', because small parts of armies or fleets are fighting at any one time.

    One space marine might not do so well against one regiment of soldiers all at once, but if that SM was solo-ing each member of that regiment in small groups of 5 or 6, all while having the time to rest.. you bet the SM is going to crush that one regiment of soldiers who have many, many times his dakka.
     
    Reader mode
    You must login or register to reply here.
    Remove ads
    Back
    Top