What should your focus for the rest of the Quest be?


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Where would we put the deluded/deceived under this paradigm? Like, a psyker who summons a tutelary spirit that's really just a demon playing the long con, or a civilization that worships something that seems at best adjacent to one of the chaos gods (Khaine would be a good example where we might just be wrong about this IC), at worst a sanitized version of chaos worship that's really just a front to trick the populace into signing their souls away.
 
I think getting foreign psykana would be prudent to do soon after if we know what chaos needs to make a ritual we will also be able to track their supplies down.
Look at your body.

...that's it. That's all materials you need for a Chaos Ritual right there. Have fun! 👍
Going back to this, is Caine Iconoclast 5/5? And are they as immune to chaos as the Glimmerlings?
*Looks at the picture I've attached to her name.*
*Looks at you.*
Yeah, sure. They're 5/5 Icono.

(Also, please look at your Chaos Resistance Trait, it is literally spelled out what your people can safely-ish ward off.)
 
We're not immune to Chaos, it's just that they require actual effort to nail us with anything, instead of just "Our symbology and proximity to us will in themselves corrupt you with no exertion of energy required on our part"

If we wanted better immunity, we needed to pick the Scripture back at Luteus Prism.

Which isn't to say that this isn't an absurd trait in context of course. 70% of the Chaos Toolbook is "Leaving symbols around that mind control people who see them into being cultists and thus can basically magic cults into play with no need to expose themselves to real risk." That gets hard countered. Presumably, baseline Daemonic Presence is also either eliminated or sharply mitigated--just seeing a Daemon won't suddenly turn someone into a Chaos Cultist if they're part of the Faith. Though that Daemon can still just fucking kill you, or use magic on you directly.

As I said, the important thing here is that "Chaos doesn't inherently make you suck just by leaving some notes lying around or by showing themselves." That immediately turns it into an actual fair fight, which Chaos has a tendency to lose given how heavily their doctrine relies on corrupting and co-opting local assets and then using them as meat shields to protect their small number of actually competent actors.
 
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One problem, though it may apply more to general Chaos handling than redemption:

Chaos is tainting. Body, mind and soul are all potential targets. Those tainted are a vector for further spreading this taint, and/or empowering whatever Chaotic entity/phenomenon that pops up (sorcerers, demons, perils of the warp). We are immune only to a point, and presence of tainted may push the taint above safe thresholds.

Communities for redemption are neat, but we need to be sure that anyone who contacts them goes through proper quarantine and check-ups.
Also, anyone who is afflicted with a warp-based disease...
Medical Services V - Equalized Healthcare - Prevents most non-Warp-based diseases and health-related issues for the Glimmering Federation's populations, including Xenos, present and future.
... may need to be mercy killed, regardless of their conviction. Or at very least quarantined.

So my proposal is to add a Separation 0:
- If they are tainted above Minor Chaos corruption (e.g. sigils carved into their flesh down into their soul) and can't be cleansed (so a danger to our Glimmerlings), we kill them.
- Those who are at or below Minor Chaos corruption (but still corrupted) and can't be cleansed, we isolate. Unless we can't afford to (too many of them, too little means on our side...)- then we kill them.

Of course, this can be part of the vote for handling cults and corruption, but it will be a problem when accepting surrenders.
 
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We're not immune to Chaos, it's just that they require actual effort to nail us with anything, instead of just "Our symbology and proximity to us will in themselves corrupt you with no exertion of energy required on our part"
Please read the description and the provided examples again. You are passively immune to these things:
HeroCooky said:
Low-Powered Chaos Sigils, Safe Warp Travel, Nightmare Visions
Seeing a Nurgling is still going to force your people to roll against Corruption. It's just that you are able to say: "You must be at least this Corruptive to force a roll!"
 
Please read the description and the provided examples again. You are passively immune to these things:

Seeing a Nurgling is still going to force your people to roll against Corruption. It's just that you are able to say: "You must be at least this Corruptive to force a roll!"

... Do we at least get a decent chance to resist? Or is this All or Nothing where we either ignore it outright, or are completely defenseless?
 
One problem, though it may apply more to general Chaos handling than redemption:

Chaos is tainting. Body, mind and soul are all potential targets. Those tainted are a vector for further spreading this taint, and/or empowering whatever Chaotic entity/phenomenon that pops up (sorcerers, demons, perils of the warp). We are immune only to a point, and presence of tainted may push the taint above safe thresholds.

Communities for redemption are neat, but we need to be sure that anyone who contacts them goes through proper quarantine and check-ups.
Also, anyone who is afflicted with a warp-based disease...

... may need to be mercy killed, regardless of their conviction. Or at very least quarantined.

So my proposal is to add a Separation 0:
- If they are tainted above Minor Chaos corruption (e.g. sigils carved into their flesh down into their soul) and can't be cleansed (so a danger to our Glimmerlings), we kill them.
- Those who are at or below Minor Chaos corruption (but still corrupted) and can't be cleansed, we isolate. Unless we can't afford to (too many of them, too little means on our side...)- then we kill them.

Of course, this can be part of the vote for handling cults and corruption, but it will be a problem when accepting surrenders.

I don't know at this point whether we can actually accurately discern what's Minor or Major Chaos corruption beyond the behavior-based signs we'd already be looking out for. Though, the bit about warp-based disease and quarantine is good, actually.
 
You can read about how Corruption is handled here.
TLDR: Corruption is a scale.

Ah, so it's mostly a matter of "rotate out people who engage Chaos regularly" rather than "Seeing a nurgling will shatter all faith in the Star Child and create a fanatical chaos cultist"

You can't fall that easily, especially with how robust our social and spiritual services are, right?
 
I don't know at this point whether we can actually accurately discern what's Minor or Major Chaos corruption
Man, if only you had a way to create an organization or framework designed to figure that stuff out. :thonk: :V
(I know I am taking the piss here, but, your honor; I had to. :V)
You can't fall that easily, especially with how robust our social and spiritual services are, right?
*Slaps The Iconoclast Traits*
"This bad boy can fit so much [Functional Society] in him!"
Chaos: *Incoherent Screaming*
 
Man, if only you had a way to create an organization or framework designed to figure that stuff out. :thonk: :V
(I know I am taking the piss here, but, your honor; I had to. :V)

*Slaps The Iconoclast Traits*
"This bad boy can fit so much [Functional Society] in him!"
Chaos: *Incoherent Screaming*

Hah!

So it's not the Corruption Resistance that shuts them down, it's the fact our culture just starves it of the stuff it feeds on, and locks out the easy ways to nickel and dime us, huh?
 
[] Plan: The Long Haul, V2
-[] Separation 0: Those who have any disease that we can't immediately recognize is to be quarantined carefully, and killed if they show any hostility, body burned or otherwise purified, as it might be some strange and horrifying exception to basic medical reality.
-[] Separation 1: Those Who Surrender versus those who are merely captured. Those who surrender are not pure, and are still responsible for their crimes, but can be trusted more than those captured. Those captured will need to be considered Prisoners of War of High Danger and should be carefully watched and guarded, though even the worst prisoner is to have food and medical care, until or unless it is decided that they are to be executed by firing squad.
-[] Separation 2: By task or deed. Those who fought in the name of Chaos, or who were especially eager in slaughter must be separated from either the reluctant or those who, fundamentally, were not important.
-[] Separation 3: Among them. It is the case that if you have 500 sinners in one community, you have a community of sinners. Instead for those who willingly surrendered and who have not been found to have committed the most vile deeds, we will create Repentance Communities, places where those who wish to redeem the lost and make them Found again. By mixing the faithful and the faithless, and creating a model Star Child town, complete with plenty of chapels... and yet also having it being guarded by the fiercely faithful against subversion, we can give these people a taste of the Federation life: food, medical care, houses and all other Quality of Life amenities equal to that of any citizen of the Federation. To those who were captured or who did greater evils, we must keep them spread out. That is to say, a Repentance Community might have 200 such Chaos people and as many or more good Glimmering Federation Citizens devoted to the cause, and especially to be created and encouraged are Orders of Repentance that can peacefully help run these areas, and that can be trusted to provide lists of the devout and the devoted to further people them thus that each sinner lives in a community filled with faith. But for those who either went too far (but not so far as to be executed) or who had to be captured should be held such that there are no more than a dozen at any location, the better to individually monitor them.
-[] Separation 4: Separation by Inquisition. Those left over, those who fall into the cracks, are to be investigated and tried. Those found too guilty or too corrupted are to be executed, but if there is a chance to save them without granting dishonor to their victims, it must be investigated. Therefore let it be that those Orders and groups involved in this Inquisition must come not only from those preaching Mercy, or Justice, but from those who believe in both.
-[] Separation 5: Time. Conversion can be forced, and may have to be, but it also takes time for faith to take root in the heart. At the end of each year, those in all of the categories are to be evaluated, those doing well and Finding Faith potentially to be moved up, those who are backsliding to be pulled away such that they cannot help others backslide, with the ultimate goal that all who can be saved... and who are WILLING to be saved, will one day be full-citizens released from the Repentance Communities.
-[] OOC: Force literally every voter who votes for this to sign a life pact promising to vote for 'finding Chaos' next turn.
-[] Caveat/Note: The well-being of those who care for, imprison, or judge these people is important to. They are to have regular mental health check-ins with uninvolved people (as well as medical check-ins, considering the risk of disease) and are to be rotated out of their duties every so often as best as possible.
 
You know, looking at the Corruption threadmark...
There are many ways to resist such, but the most well known, and effective, means known to humanity are corrupting the corruptor back (overpowering their story with your own), and burning it with the faith of GOLD.
... I look forward to intensifying our Faith.

Khornate Demon: *appears, summoned by some sorceror*
Star Child's miracle: Hello.
Khornate Demon: Why do I taste chocolate in my mouth instead of blood?
 
Those Who Surrender versus those who are merely captured.
This distinction sounds kinda loose in its wording to me? Any capture necessitates some sort of surrender at some point, otherwise the potential captures would for example be charging the Federation soldiers holding them at gunpoint. I assume you mean to separate when an active act of rebellion precedes the surrender vs when the surrender is forced at the point of Federation guns? What then about those enslaved who are only liberated by the arrival of the Federation and the violent death of their overseers? Are those really a priori more suspect and to be treated as Prisoners of War of High Danger?

Those who fought in the name of Chaos, or who were especially eager in slaughter must be separated from either the reluctant or those who, fundamentally, were not important.
This one seems really hard to put into practice, since determining which prisoner is which would rely entirely on the testimony of either their victims or their comrades, outside of maybe some of the most high-profile cases whose reputation would be more widely known, testimony which given the nature of the enemy is highly suspect.

That is to say, a Repentance Community might have 200 such Chaos people and as many or more good Glimmering Federation Citizens devoted to the cause, and especially to be created and encouraged are Orders of Repentance that can peacefully help run these areas
And this part seems incredibly hard to put into practice when we start liberating entire planets from the former Neon sphere of influence, cause it'd require massive population transfers of either Federation citizens outward or newly liberated populations into the Federation's core. I feel we'll need a longer-term administrative solution for that kind of issue, unless we'll have a different action to determine how to deal with planetary-scale incorporation of former chaos populations and this is only meant for smaller scale surrenders @HeroCooky? (At least I just assume that Chaos will still generally have planets with billions of people toiling to supply their armies that we don't just want to nuke and move on from)
 
This distinction sounds kinda loose in its wording to me? Any capture necessitates some sort of surrender at some point, otherwise the potential captures would for example be charging the Federation soldiers holding them at gunpoint. I assume you mean to separate when an active act of rebellion precedes the surrender vs when the surrender is forced at the point of Federation guns? What then about those enslaved who are only liberated by the arrival of the Federation and the violent death of their overseers? Are those really a priori more suspect and to be treated as Prisoners of War of High Danger?


This one seems really hard to put into practice, since determining which prisoner is which would rely entirely on the testimony of either their victims or their comrades, outside of maybe some of the most high-profile cases whose reputation would be more widely known, testimony which given the nature of the enemy is highly suspect.


And this part seems incredibly hard to put into practice when we start liberating entire planets from the former Neon sphere of influence, cause it'd require massive population transfers of either Federation citizens outward or newly liberated populations into the Federation's core. I feel we'll need a longer-term administrative solution for that kind of issue, unless we'll have a different action to determine how to deal with planetary-scale incorporation of former chaos populations and this is only meant for smaller scale surrenders @HeroCooky? (At least I just assume that Chaos will still generally have planets with billions of people toiling to supply their armies that we don't just want to nuke and move on from)

The last part is a good point but there's also just not generally enough information to form a larger set of policies cause we know basically nothing about the planets we're taking or the situations therein. But we probably do honestly need population transfers, considering there's going to be no planet that hasn't had its population greatly decreased.
 
unless we'll have a different action to determine how to deal with planetary-scale incorporation of former chaos populations and this is only meant for smaller scale surrenders @HeroCooky?
Eventually, like when you take Qulach's Forge, yes. Before that there are honestly not enough people under the boot of Chaos on the planets that you can take this Turn to make any large-scale (read: million+ people) solution neccessary.

Though I will say, in the spirit of transparency, that 90% of all Chaos Cultists with weapons in their hands will just straight up try to murder you, full-tilt, even beyond capture, unless they seek sacrifices. Those people are gone gone in the majority of cases.

Also, a look should be taken on whose Cultists you are facing. Khornates are far different than Nurglites.
 
Probably a dumb question. But is there a way to do a reverse Chaos? If 70% of Chaos problems is just seeing the wrong thing and slowly becoming corrupted, can we throw up a pentagram or something and slowly cleanse large populations?

Also, a look should be taken on whose Cultists you are facing. Khornates are far different than Nurglites.

@The Laurent not sure if this is meant to be a hint but would it be possible to specify different measures for difference cultists? Or too complicated and unnecessary?
 
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Probably a dumb question. But is there a way to do a reverse Chaos? If 70% of Chaos problems is just seeing the wrong thing and slowly becoming corrupted, can we throw up a pentagram or something and slowly cleanse large populations?
There are ways to rip out Chaos Corruption from someone, even if unwilling, yes. However, those are generally incredibly expensive and only apply to singular people.

A plan like Laurent's would be taking the far harder, longer, and more uncertain route of getting the corrupted people in question take the steps themselves.

Think of it like getting someone into rehab. If they are actively unwilling, they won't be beating that addiction. But if they are, they can beat that! Though relapses are a reality.
 
Yeah, like, I actively acknowledge that there are going to be what we call relapses, which is why there is security and so on. Like, Chaos is dangerous sure, but plenty of Chaos things can outright just be shot if need be. This is not going to be a perfect process and it's not going to be a fast one, and it'll JUST be started as we hit the 500 year mark and have another Constitutional Convention. I'm pretty sure that "integration of the new territories/etc" will be the, like, main attraction lol.
 
-Ravagers are to never be given even a scrap of technology or knowledge, and their knowledge is generally useless. Key examples include a Daemon of Chaos, one of its slaves, the Orks, and other stranger beings that the Federation has not yet encountered.
so um . . . i think we already have a shoot on sight order for chaos and cultists, so are we arguing over if cultists can be redeemed/forcefully converted to the star child?
 
Eventually, like when you take Qulach's Forge, yes. Before that there are honestly not enough people under the boot of Chaos on the planets that you can take this Turn to make any large-scale (read: million+ people) solution neccessary.
Alright, that's good to know. So no worrying about planet-level solutions for now at least.
Though I will say, in the spirit of transparency, that 90% of all Chaos Cultists with weapons in their hands will just straight up try to murder you, full-tilt, even beyond capture, unless they seek sacrifices. Those people are gone gone in the majority of cases.
I think in light of this most of the first separation probably becomes rather moot? since those who would surrender to us do so either as a deliberate plot or because they do in fact seek redemption. I'd propose moving up the 0th separation by one and sticking the second half of what's the first right now (the bit about food and medical care) into the second separation. That way you also get back to actually having five separations rather than six.
 
so um . . . i think we already have a shoot on sight order for chaos and cultists, so are we arguing over if cultists can be redeemed/forcefully converted to the star child?

We've never actually faced Chaos in the kind of numbers where we have to decide about, like, what the fuck to do with actual societies where most people are literally not combatants.

A majority people on Chaos-controlled planets don't pick up a gun because even with Bullshit they still have to be able to (sorta) function.
 
[] Plan: The Long Haul, V3
-[] Separation 1: Those who have any disease that we can't immediately recognize is to be quarantined carefully, and killed if they show any hostility, body burned or otherwise purified, as it might be some strange and horrifying exception to basic medical reality. We are also to be clear on the difference between those who worship Rot versus those who worship Slaughter, or Excess, and treatment of them in these first moments and the warning signs we are looking for should take these as noted. Those who surrender are to be treated very carefully, as Prisoners of War of danger to be guarded, but with the non-soldiers to potentially be more likely to be sent to a Repentence Community.
-[] Separation 2: By task or deed. Those who fought in the name of Chaos, or who were especially eager in slaughter must be separated from either the reluctant or those who, fundamentally, were not important.
-[] Separation 3: Among them. It is the case that if you have 500 sinners in one community, you have a community of sinners. Instead for those who willingly surrendered and who have not been found to have committed the most vile deeds, we will create Repentance Communities, places where those who wish to redeem the lost and make them Found again. By mixing the faithful and the faithless, and creating a model Star Child town, complete with plenty of chapels... and yet also having it being guarded by the fiercely faithful against subversion, we can give these people a taste of the Federation life: food, medical care, houses and all other Quality of Life amenities equal to that of any citizen of the Federation. To those who were captured or who did greater evils, we must keep them spread out. That is to say, a Repentance Community might have 200 such Chaos people and as many or more good Glimmering Federation Citizens devoted to the cause, and especially to be created and encouraged are Orders of Repentance that can peacefully help run these areas, and that can be trusted to provide lists of the devout and the devoted to further people them thus that each sinner lives in a community filled with faith. But for those who either went too far (but not so far as to be executed) or who had to be captured should be held such that there are no more than a dozen at any location, the better to individually monitor them.
-[] Separation 4: Separation by Inquisition. Those left over, those who fall into the cracks, are to be investigated and tried. Those found too guilty or too corrupted are to be executed, but if there is a chance to save them without granting dishonor to their victims, it must be investigated. Therefore let it be that those Orders and groups involved in this Inquisition must come not only from those preaching Mercy, or Justice, but from those who believe in both.
-[] Separation 5: Time. Conversion can be forced, and may have to be, but it also takes time for faith to take root in the heart. At the end of each year, those in all of the categories are to be evaluated, those doing well and Finding Faith potentially to be moved up, those who are backsliding to be pulled away such that they cannot help others backslide, with the ultimate goal that all who can be saved... and who are WILLING to be saved, will one day be full-citizens released from the Repentance Communities.
-[] OOC: Force literally every voter who votes for this to sign a life pact promising to vote for 'finding Chaos' next turn.
-[] Caveat/Note: The well-being of those who care for, imprison, or judge these people is important to. They are to have regular mental health check-ins with uninvolved people (as well as medical check-ins, considering the risk of disease) and are to be rotated out of their duties every so often as best as possible.
-[] In order to do this, commitment would be needed towards: one, the finding Chaos Faith action, two, population transfers of at least some intensity as needed to stabilize the planets as functioning worlds and implement these policies, etc, etc.
 
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